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NPR has an August 23rd, 2018 story about the original "A-TEAM" (Athletes in Temporary Employment as Agricultural Manpower), a 1965 project to replace migrant workers with high school kids on summer break.
The year was 1965. On Cinco de Mayo, newspapers across the country reported that Secretary of Labor W. Willard Wirtz wanted to recruit 20,000 high schoolers to replace the hundreds of thousands of Mexican agricultural workers who had labored in the United States under the so-called Bracero Program. Started in World War II, the program was an agreement between the American and Mexican governments that brought Mexican men to pick harvests across the U.S. It ended in 1964, after years of accusations by civil rights activists like Cesar Chavez that migrants suffered wage theft and terrible working and living conditions.
But farmers complained — in words that echo today's headlines — that Mexican laborers did the jobs that Americans didn't want to do, and that the end of [the program] meant that crops would rot in the fields.
[...] the national press was immediately skeptical. "Dealing with crops which grow close to the ground requires a good deal stronger motive" than money or the prospects of a good workout, argued a Detroit Free Press editorial. "Like, for instance, gnawing hunger."
[One group] got paid minimum wage — $1.40 an hour back then — plus 5 cents for every crate filled with about 30 to 36 [melons.] [Students] worked six days a week, with Sundays off, and they were not allowed to return home during their stint. The farmers sheltered them in... "defunct housing" [according to one student].
Problems arose immediately... In California's Salinas Valley, 200 teenagers... quit after just two weeks on the job... Students elsewhere staged strikes. At the end, the A-TEAM was considered a giant failure and was never tried again.
[Stony Brook University history professor Lori A. Flores] says the A-TEAM "reveals a very important reality: It's not about work ethic [for undocumented workers]. It's about [the fact] that this labor is not meant to be done under such bad conditions and bad wages."
The kids gave up their summer vacations, worked in 110 degree heat six days a week, slept with no air conditioning, and ate subsistence rations, for nearly no benefit; it's no wonder the program was not a rousing success.
In tangentially-related news, the U.S. Libertarian Party published a press release the day before entitled "Immigrants Benefit the United States" that makes the blanket assertion "Immigrants, almost across the board, are a net value to the United States."
(Score: 4, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Friday August 24 2018, @06:17AM (21 children)
It is not true that "a small number are criminal".
First of all, 100% of the people who illegally crossed the border are criminal. Many of the rest are also criminal, getting to stay here by various kinds of visa fraud: sham marriages, falsely claimed refugee status, etc.
Second of all, one doesn't just live in this country without documentation. These people are not undocumented at all. They are committing identity theft on a grand scale.
My values and culture includes things like "no corruption" and "speak English" and "cheer for the American team". Somebody who arrives here speaking Icelandic is forced to learn English (or Spanish I suppose!) while somebody who speaks Spanish can get by forever without bothering.
(Score: 2) by Mykl on Friday August 24 2018, @06:23AM (12 children)
You are aware that the USA has no official language, right?
(Score: -1, Flamebait) by Anonymous Coward on Friday August 24 2018, @06:35AM
You are aware that culture exists in the absence of (or even despite) "official" declarations, right? Look at them goalposts go...
(Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Friday August 24 2018, @02:24PM (10 children)
And, which part of "assimilation" did you gloss over, so that you could pull out a not very relevant fact?
I'm going to buy my defensive radar from Temu, just like Venezuela!
(Score: 5, Insightful) by Thexalon on Friday August 24 2018, @02:46PM (9 children)
There's absolutely zero indication that recent immigrants are assimilating any slower than earlier immigrants. It generally takes about 2-3 generations to go from "We're trying to live a lot like the old country, but in America" to "We're English-speaking Americans who may have some family recipes from the old country and occasionally come out for whatever holiday has been deemed part of our ethnic heritage (e.g. St Patrick's Day)". The only difference between recent immigrants from Latin America when it comes to assimilation and, say, your family, is that they immigrated more recently, so they're not as far along in that process.
There are a couple of exceptions to that rule though, immigrants who without question refused to assimilate and instead sought to destroy and dominate the Americans rather than become part of America. Those were the Spanish that arrived in the southwest in the 1500's, and the English that arrived on the east coast in the early 1600's. That second group in particular never even made a serious attempt to learn Algonquin or Powhatan, and insisted on keeping their strange religious ideas and family structures that were completely foreign to the US.
"Think of how stupid the average person is. Then realize half of 'em are stupider than that." - George Carlin
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday August 24 2018, @03:07PM
Bad examples. A great example would be TEXANS.
(Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Friday August 24 2018, @03:44PM (7 children)
So, you recognize that neither the English nor the Spanish are typical "immigrants" - but you still deny that "Latinos" might be invaders?
BTW, you kinda lost your thread in the last part of the last sentence. You meant "foreign to the Americas". "Foreign to the US." is demonstrably false.
I'm going to buy my defensive radar from Temu, just like Venezuela!
(Score: 2) by Thexalon on Friday August 24 2018, @04:19PM (6 children)
Foreign to the land that is currently the US, in case that wasn't clear.
As for recent Latin American immigrants, the folks most likely to come to the US are darker-skinned folks who are descended from the people that were living in Central America before the Spanish showed up, who've already adapted once to another culture because they're speaking Spanish rather than Aztec or other native languages. So even if you believe in genetic predisposition to behavior in racial groups (a belief which forms a core part of fascist ideology both historically and today, I might add), you're talking about people descended not from invaders but the invaded.
The Spanish I was referring to were the folks that took over what is now California, Arizona, New Mexico, and Texas by force of arms, and built towns and Catholic missions all over the place - why do you think the major cities are named for Spanish-language versions of saints? Those places are part of the US because the US won a war against Mexico in the 1840's, which makes the English-speaking Americans at least as much invaders as any Spanish-speakers in the area.
"Think of how stupid the average person is. Then realize half of 'em are stupider than that." - George Carlin
(Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Friday August 24 2018, @04:24PM (4 children)
And, I'll point out that the Spanish were largely conquered by Muslims a little earlier in their history. It was those conquered Spaniards who conquered the Americas. Fine example you're painting. Those conquered Central and South Americans are now coming here to get revenge, just as the Spaniards did a few hundred years ago!
And, all the while, I steadfastly maintain that WE, that is, modern day AMERICANS, should be barring the way of the invaders.
I'm going to buy my defensive radar from Temu, just like Venezuela!
(Score: 2) by Thexalon on Friday August 24 2018, @05:10PM (3 children)
The big flaw in your reasoning is "people A coming to place where people B are currently living" always equals an invasion, rather than new folks in your neighborhood. It's an impulse that goes as far back as the Know-Nothing Party, but still hasn't been shown to be true.
"Think of how stupid the average person is. Then realize half of 'em are stupider than that." - George Carlin
(Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Saturday August 25 2018, @05:06AM (2 children)
And, how are the Neanderthal and the Denisovans doing in Europe today? I think they kinda got invaded by those modern man types.
I'm going to buy my defensive radar from Temu, just like Venezuela!
(Score: 2) by Thexalon on Sunday August 26 2018, @11:37AM (1 child)
You're probably descended from them.
"Think of how stupid the average person is. Then realize half of 'em are stupider than that." - George Carlin
(Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Sunday August 26 2018, @12:18PM
Most Euros have some Neanderthal blood, remember? Not so much the Denisovans. The Innuit, Eskimo, and Aleut are what is left of them. The one feature that sets them apart from all the rest of us, is the layer of fat under their skin, that insulates them from the cold. Otherwise, they are hardly distinguishable from other Native Americans, and/or Pacific islanders.
http://discovermagazine.com/2016/dec/meet-the-denisovans [discovermagazine.com]
I'm going to buy my defensive radar from Temu, just like Venezuela!
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday August 24 2018, @06:34PM
and how do you know that the mongoloids that inhabited mexico didn't invade and kill the real indigenous peoples of mexico many years before? people like to assume (through indoctrination) that these obvious mongoloids are the poor victims of evil whitey, but their is (hidden) evidence that whitey was here back in the day too. maybe even before the mongoloids that make up the "natives" of the americas. it's a "big mystery" how these advanced central american civilizations went to ruin, but that's only because people choose to assume these simple people engineered the advanced civ to begin with. their own origin stories are said to tell a different tale.
(Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Friday August 24 2018, @08:31AM (5 children)
There are 3 - 5 million illegal immigrants here from Europe who have overstayed their visas or otherwise blended into our society. These are not people taking jobs picking crops, washing dishes or mowing lawns. They are taking good paying, skilled labor jobs away from Americans. These are the people who endanger the American middle class. They should be the first to go.
(Score: -1, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Friday August 24 2018, @01:37PM
Holy fuck, you know fuck all about immigrants. Such idiotic dribble.
(Score: 0, Flamebait) by Runaway1956 on Friday August 24 2018, @02:34PM (3 children)
I'm not going to argue your "facts". I will offer you my own. When Bill Clinton was in office, it was estimated that there were 20 million illegals in this country. When Bush was in office, that number didn't change - still 20 million - DESPITE the fact that some estimates said a couple thousand were coming in DAILY! When Obama was in office, we were still told 20 million. With Trump in office, we're still being told 20 million. OBVIOUSLY NO ONE IN GOVERNMENT OR MSM CAN COUNT WORTH A DAMN!!
Some of you are quite outspoken in your opinion that I am not the sharpest tool in the shed. But, FFS, I can add 20 million to a million here, a million there, a couple more million somewhere else - and come up with fifty fucking million, and more.
So - uhhhhhmmmmm - how important are your 3 to 5 million illegal Euro invaders, compared to 50 million Mexicans?
Now, allow me to point out here - I have not dismissed your ~4 million illegal Euros. I won't defend them. They broke the law? Catch them, prosecute them, and deport their Euro asses - their WHITE Euro asses. Go for it, you have my full support.
Just don't try to distract attention away from our porous southern border, and 50 million invaders.
I'm going to buy my defensive radar from Temu, just like Venezuela!
(Score: 2) by Whoever on Friday August 24 2018, @02:55PM (2 children)
So how many illegal immigrants do you think are in the USA now? 100M? 150M?
Perhaps you are an illegal immigrant and you just don't know it?
It's not like immigrants (legal and illegal) die or return to their home countries. Oh, wait. They do!
I still remember when the USA would not deport someone wanted for terrorism charges in Northern Ireland by the UK. Not only an illegal immigrant, but an actual terrorist. But, yeah, there is no racism involved in the way USA enforces its immigration policies and laws.
(Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Friday August 24 2018, @03:37PM (1 child)
I used fifty million above - that's what I think it is. But, the whole point of this little exercise, is that NO ONE KNOWS! The talking heads have been stuck on that 20 million number for more than 30 years now. It is an established talking point.
Where else have we seen an established talking point that never changes, despite the fact that it MUST CHANGE?!?!
https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2010/04/us-government-finally-admits-most-piracy-estimates-are-bogus/ [arstechnica.com]
Point is - if those numbers don't fluctuate, then THEY ARE BOGUS!
I'm tired of beign lied to. Someone, somewhere, arrived at twenty million as a "comfortable", or "acceptable" figure. And, it hasn't changed in thirty freaking years. We're simply not supposed to notice the flood, then the trickle, then the flood again, then the trickle that continues to flow. None of us are supposed to be able to add things up, to discover the claims are all bogus.
As for your Irish terrorists - they aren't current events. Sorry, they're just a distraction here.
I'm going to buy my defensive radar from Temu, just like Venezuela!
(Score: 4, Interesting) by Whoever on Friday August 24 2018, @05:24PM
How many people do you think cross the border illegally every day? 1000?
Let's run with that. That's 365,000 border crossings per year.
What's the average time an illegal spends in the USA? Some are quickly caught, so their time is effectively zero. For others, let's assume an average age at which they cross is 30. Average lifetime is ~70 years, so they spend an average of 40 years in the USA. Note that this is a huge over-estimate, because people choose to leave the USA, or are deported. Others become legal citizens.
Out of that 20M, with an average life of 70 years, 500,000 die every year. That's more than the number I used for new entrants, so at 1000/day, the number of illegals would be dropping.
So, let me agree that the 20M is wrong, but it is actually an overestimate.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday August 24 2018, @11:16AM
Heaps of open source software without documentation leave well enough.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday August 24 2018, @03:15PM
We ought to clear this up:
There are 2 hot questions in this immigration debate.
1. Are immigrants (esp. illegal ones) dangerous?
2. Should we continue to not enforce immigration law, i.e., let everyone sneak in and stay here?
Many commenters are conflating the 2 issues.
In my posts, I addressed #1 for Hispanics. Not dangerous, hard working, decent people.
My opinion for #2 is that it has been harmful to ignore basic immigration law. Ignoring the law is bad policy for all sorts of reasons.