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Amazon announces $15 minimum wage for all US employees
Amazon is raising its minimum wage to $15 an hour for all US employees. The change takes effect November 1 and applies to full-time, part-time and temporary workers. Amazon says the $15 minimum wage will benefit more than 250,000 Amazon employees, plus 100,000 seasonal workers.
"We listened to our critics, thought hard about what we wanted to do, and decided we want to lead," said Jeff Bezos, Amazon's founder and CEO. "We're excited about this change and encourage our competitors and other large employers to join us."
The change applies to Whole Foods and all other subsidiary employees.
Amazon also said its public policy team will begin lobbying for an increase in the federal minimum wage, which has been $7.25 an hour since 2009.
See also: Bernie Sanders praises Jeff Bezos on Amazon $15 minimum wage
Previously: 'Stop BEZOS' Bill to tax Amazon for Underpaying Workers
Related: Injured Amazon Worker Describes High-Tech Dystopia Inside Texas Warehouse
(Score: 1, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday October 03 2018, @06:39AM (9 children)
How many of the 100k people were being paid less than 15 $/hr?
(Score: 5, Insightful) by Rosco P. Coltrane on Wednesday October 03 2018, @08:06AM (8 children)
More importantly, with a corporate net income of $3bn, what minuscule fraction a percentage of that is dedicated to helping workers make ends meet without the state having to subsidize their income in the form of food stamps?
I'm not terribly impressed. I'm sure Amazon did this piffle of a handout to cut a deal with the taxman or something, not because they suddenly decided to be generous - because frankly, it's not generous at all...
(Score: 2, Insightful) by The Mighty Buzzard on Wednesday October 03 2018, @11:05AM (7 children)
Generosity between employer and employee has no place in business. See, the goal is to pay each position what they're worth as decided by both the local jobs market, labor/management negotiations, and individual job performance variations. Simply raising the base pay without raising everyone else's pay is going to piss off every last person who was making more. There are damned good reasons electricians, machinists, etc... make a lot more than shovel jockeys and if this becomes not the case your most crucial employees will either demand higher pay as well or start looking for gainful employment somewhere they appear appreciated.
Significantly raising base pay at a major employer is also going to cause the base pay of the surrounding community to have to rise to compete, which harms the health of every business and flat out kills those that were barely getting by to begin with. Which means every employee they employed is now out of work. Which makes it even harder to get a job at all, much less a good job, due to the increased competition on the labor end of things.
Also, given everything else being equal, nobody chooses the job that pays less. Which means the employer that compensates better gets all of the good employees for a given job and small businesses get the dregs who produce less value for their pay, which means you have to hire more to get the same value of work. This is all as it should be when the larger company actually values the work as much as they're paying but doing it for political reasons fucks shit up for everyone without having any goal except keeping politicos off their asses.
Doing it for ideological reasons is even worse. Commerce is not the place for ideology. The only consideration that should ever be given in regards to an exchange of values is are you getting equal value for your exchange. Every ideology that says you should favor one side or the other is effectively saying it is okay to cheat the other side.
tl;dr Either the employees are worth $15/hr and you'd damned well better be paying them accordingly if you want to keep them, or they're not and paying them as if they were causes widespread harm for extremely localized benefit.
My rights don't end where your fear begins.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday October 03 2018, @11:51AM
You give a few reasons why it's a good idea for a business to raise it's base pay: They get first pick of the good employees, surrounding businesses have to keep up and if they can't the first company can take over their market share.
Yes, the higher paying employees may notice that their wage is now relatively lower. But when you start thinking like that you can only get depressed more and more. Do you feel like you get enough compensation for your work? If that answer is yes, than why do you care about someone else's wage?
Also commerce is the last place where you want to get equal value in an exchange. Many companies hire specific employees to try to disrupt that balance in their favor. If you can sell your stuff for much more than "equal" price, you're making significantly more money. Prices are set so to get maximum profit, not for some "equal value" ideology.
I agree that business may want to keep ideology out of it, but employees and certainly customers don't.
One more note: thanks for your generosity and time towards soylentnews, much appreciated.
(Score: 5, Touché) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday October 03 2018, @12:17PM (1 child)
Which opinion is part of your ideology.
(Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Thursday October 04 2018, @04:00AM
You're confusing the chicken with the egg. It's part of my ideology because of its practical utility and my ability to reason my way out of a paper bag best two out of three, not part of my business practices because of my ideology.
My rights don't end where your fear begins.
(Score: 2, Insightful) by khallow on Wednesday October 03 2018, @12:48PM
Which is a great thing, remember? Labor is a relatively effective market and Amazon is signalling via price, the usual market mechanism that it's demanding better labor. There's nothing to be concerned about. If you are one of those marginal businesses who can't compete for that labor now, then what's the problem? Just end the business. The labor market already would be picking up at higher price the workers from that business and life would move on. We need businesses, but we don't need businesses that can't pay market rate.
I disagree. Amazon isn't being forced to do this. They're voluntarily virtue signalling. If as a result, they get commensurate benefits in the political game, then they made a good move and that should be reflected in the market just like any other relevant factor. We shouldn't care why someone chooses to trade at a certain price in a market, as long as they aren't being forced to do so.
(Score: 2) by MichaelDavidCrawford on Wednesday October 03 2018, @08:12PM (1 child)
-y getting by"
I regard that as a good thing.
To put marginal businesses under frees up their resources so they may be used for more profitable activities. It's just like firing an alcoholic employee such as Judge Kavanaugh: the only time an alcoholic will of their own free will give up the bottle is when they hit bottom.
Yes I Have No Bananas. [gofundme.com]
(Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Thursday October 04 2018, @04:03AM
Did you miss the bit where that leads to all their employees becoming suddenly unemployed and the impact that has on the community?
Also, I would rather not see the economy fall any farther than necessary before it finds itself a bottom if it's all the same to you.
My rights don't end where your fear begins.
(Score: 2) by MichaelDavidCrawford on Wednesday October 03 2018, @08:14PM
Is that why the US invaded Siberia shortly after the Russian Revolution?
Yes I Have No Bananas. [gofundme.com]
(Score: 5, Insightful) by Mykl on Wednesday October 03 2018, @06:46AM (4 children)
Jeff can afford to share the wealth a bit more than he has been, and this will help to show others that it is possible to pay your employees a living wage and stay in business.
I'm sick of hearing from US businesses that the "world's strongest economy" would collapse if wage-slavery were reduced just a tiny bit. Most other developed countries manage to pay their employees more than the US does, and most of those countries are doing just fine thanks.
(Score: 4, Touché) by Mykl on Wednesday October 03 2018, @06:49AM
Also, Jeff is no saint. He'll have run the models and determined that paying employees more actually works out better for him in the long run.
(Score: 1, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday October 03 2018, @07:06AM (2 children)
Have you tried printing more money instead and giving it to the poor?
The inflation will become the tax for the rich, it doesn't matter how well they hide their money overseas.
Also no, Americans easily get paid 4 times more even as a fresh grad then a veteran programmer from the 3rd world due to currency exchange rates, while still having higher cost of living than major US cities. Mind you the figures are from 5 years ago.
(Score: 1) by khallow on Wednesday October 03 2018, @10:32PM
They just need to make sure they don't hide it as US dollars. It's not rocket science.
(Score: 1) by khallow on Wednesday October 03 2018, @10:56PM
Another note on this is a number of societies have tried this one weird trick. It doesn't always result in hyperinflation which is a high enough level of inflation that results in a complete divestment of the currency - no one holds on to it even a day longer than they have to, but you do end with runaway inflation that harms the economy and the poor. The wealthy can just put their wealth into things that are resistant to high levels of inflation like real estate or precious metals. The poor can't.
(Score: 3, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday October 03 2018, @07:00AM (19 children)
$15/hr is almost what Henry Ford paid in his famed daily wage.
$5/day = $0.63/hr
$0.63/hr(1914) = $15.89(2018)
https://www.usinflationcalculator.com/ [usinflationcalculator.com]
(Score: 5, Interesting) by RamiK on Wednesday October 03 2018, @07:45AM (18 children)
Oh! I like this game! Let me try:
( https://www.farmersalmanac.com/a-look-back-at-what-things-used-to-cost-18228 [farmersalmanac.com] )
Adjusted 2018 ( https://www.usinflationcalculator.com/ [usinflationcalculator.com] 2421.5% ):
Car: $12,607.30
House: $88,251.10
Milk: $8.07
Bread: $1.51
Gas: $3.03
compiling...
(Score: 4, Disagree) by maxwell demon on Wednesday October 03 2018, @08:45AM (10 children)
Let's look into into what really matters (using your data):
1914:
Car: $500/($5/h) = 100 h
House: $3500/($5/h) = 700 h
Milk: $.32/($5/h) = 0.064 h = 3 min 50 s
Bread: $.06/($5/h) = 0.0012 h = 43 s
Gas: $.12/($5/h) = 0.024 h = 1 min 26 s
2018, Amazon wage:
Car: $12,607/($15/h) = 840 h
House: $88,251/($15/h) = 5883 h
Milk: $8.07/($15/h) = 0.538 h = 32 min 17 s
Bread: $1.51/($15/h) = 0.1 h = 6 min 2 s
Gas: $3.03/($15/h) = 0.202 h = 12 min 7 s
The Tao of math: The numbers you can count are not the real numbers.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday October 03 2018, @09:36AM (1 child)
Thanks for crunching the numbers.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday October 03 2018, @10:07AM
The numbers are off by a factor of 8. Corrected, the numbers are more inline with present values.
(Score: 1, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday October 03 2018, @09:48AM (1 child)
Your numbers are wrong. Hourly wage was $0.625/hr, not $5 (that was per day).
(Score: 2) by maxwell demon on Wednesday October 03 2018, @03:57PM
Oops, you're right, I misread. Sorry.
The Tao of math: The numbers you can count are not the real numbers.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday October 03 2018, @10:00AM (2 children)
1914:
Car: $500/($0.625/h) = 800 h
House: $3500/($0.625/h) = 5600 h
Milk: $.32/($0.625/h) = 0.064 h = 32 min 45 s
Bread: $.06/($0.625/h) = 0.0012 h = 5min 45 s
Gas: $.12/($0.625/h) = 0.024 h = 11min 30s
Using the correct values is not far off and ignores things like a 1914 car could be put together in an hour buy a couple guys (watch youtub videos of people rebuilding model Ts) whwereas a modern car has dozens of safety systems and computers.A 1914 house is nothing like a modern house and was 3x smaller.
(Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday October 03 2018, @12:07PM (1 child)
Yay! The distributive property works.
The analysis would be much more insightful if actual 2018 costs were used.
Ex 30k average car cost, 250k average house cost, etc. Would be useful to normalize somehow.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday October 03 2018, @12:49PM
Hard to make comparisons with everything because a modern house might be closer to a 1914 mansion. A 2018 car is far closer to a spacecraft than a model T, but food...
Milk: $3.16/($15/h) = 12 minutes (2018) (https://www.statista.com/statistics/236854/retail-price-of-milk-in-the-united-states/)
Bread: $1.51/($15/h) = 6 minutes(2018) (https://costaide.com/loaf-bread-cost/)
Gas: $2.90/($15/h) = 12 min (2018)(http://www.statemaster.com/graph/ene_gas_pri_ave_reg-energy-gas-price-average-regular)
As per ramik above
Milk: $.32 / 0.625 = 31 minutes (1914)
Bread: $.06 / 0.625 = 5.76 minutes (1914)
Gas: $.12 / 0.625 = 11.52 minutes (1914)
So bread and gas are the same, milk is 3x cheaper.
If you do want to make some sort of comparison, here is a brand new chevy spark for $15k, so ~1,000 hours (2018) vs 800hrs (1914), although a better comparison would be between any of the hundreds of thousands of used cars on craigslist that can be purchased for maybe $5000 (300hrs). Still unfair because a 6 year old used car in 2018 is still >> new car in 2014.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday October 03 2018, @02:49PM (1 child)
That was $5/DAY, not $5/hr.
In 1914 the 8hr day had not become standard, but if we were to use that number we'd get 0.625/hr:
Car: $500/($0.625/h) = 800 h
House: $3500/($0.625/h) = 4800 h
Milk: $.32/($0.625/h) = 0.512 h = 30 min 43 s
Bread: $.06/($0.625/h) = 0.096 h = 5 min 47 s
Gas: $.12/($0.625/h) = 0.192 h = 11 min 31 s
NOTE: turns out it was an 8hr day: https://learning.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/01/05/jan-5-1914-henry-ford-implements-5-a-day-wage/ [nytimes.com]
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday October 03 2018, @02:51PM
oops, used 3000 instead of 3500 for "house". House would be 5600 hrs
(Score: 2) by hemocyanin on Wednesday October 03 2018, @02:57PM
The "house" numbers are interesting even accounting for the $5/day error. If housing had kept pace with inflation, it would be within reach of a lot of people. But with houses costing over $200,000 in a lot of areas (and way more than that in most of the places where the jobs are), people are priced out. A house costing $200k is 13,333 hours at $15/hr.
median house price is $216k: https://www.zillow.com/home-values/ [zillow.com]
(Score: 2) by richtopia on Wednesday October 03 2018, @08:54AM (6 children)
So... inflation works?
(Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Wednesday October 03 2018, @11:12AM (5 children)
That's not why inflation exists. Its purpose is to keep money from being hoarded rather than invested at all levels of income. Invested money is mobile money and provides a huge boost to the economy compared to mattress money.
My rights don't end where your fear begins.
(Score: 3, Insightful) by c0lo on Wednesday October 03 2018, @11:31AM (2 children)
Yeah, but... see... the more money you invest the large the bust that follows the boost.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoFiw2jMy-0
(Score: 3, Interesting) by crafoo on Wednesday October 03 2018, @02:28PM (1 child)
Not sure if you're joking or not, but that is what happens. People go around hunting for new places to jam their cash into because saving it is a losing move.
(Score: 3, Interesting) by c0lo on Wednesday October 03 2018, @09:27PM
I wasn't.
If there was only the savings, it wouldn't be that bad.
But they are jamming their future, not-yet-realized, income too - by borrowing from the banks.
Which potentially means for every dollar invested from the savings another 9 dollars are "at the expense of the future" (see fractional reserve).
And don't forget to add on top of it the "too big to fail".
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoFiw2jMy-0
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday October 03 2018, @10:59PM
That's not why inflation exists. Since the governments took all the money fiat, it's all about being able to finance deficit spending. That people other than the government can do the same is just a side-effect.
(Score: 1) by khallow on Wednesday October 03 2018, @11:00PM
My take is that it's just another tax on people and their wealth. For example, in the US, you get increased taxes from capital gains in an inflationary environment. If an asset doesn't increase in value, it'll increase in monetary price due to inflation and generate a tax. And of course, the US government is the largest borrower of US dollar-valued debt. Inflation helps reduce the future cost of that debt.
(Score: 2) by bradley13 on Wednesday October 03 2018, @08:16AM (1 child)
Amazon is a huge company. They aren't proposing something like this in order to "do good". They have reasons. Here is one possible explanation:
Amazon's $15 Minimum Wage Proposal is A Brilliant Way To Get The Government to Hammer Amazon's Competition [coyoteblog.com]
In short: Amazon uses this as a basis to lobby for an increase in the federal minimum wage. Due to their online model (as opposed to brick-and-mortar), they have fewer employees-per-unit-sold. Hence, an increase in federal minimum wage would seriously impact their competition - thus driving more business to Amazon.
Alternatively, consider: this costs Amazon almost nothing. Where Amazon operates, they already have to pay relatively high wages for unskilled labor. They make much noise about a "raise" that doesn't actually cost them anything. Workers in Nowhereville hear about this, and look at their paycheck - without considering their much lower cost of living - and also want that $15. Again, a disproportionate impact on Amazon's competitors.
Everyone is somebody else's weirdo.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday October 03 2018, @08:49AM
Correct description of Amazon's wrong answer [thefreedictionary.com]
(Score: 2) by MichaelDavidCrawford on Wednesday October 03 2018, @08:06PM
Amazon won a Supreme Court case in which its warehouse employees petitioned to be paid for the time they spend waiting to be searched each day on their way out.
Yes I Have No Bananas. [gofundme.com]
(Score: 2) by darkfeline on Thursday October 04 2018, @07:33PM
There are already reports that the minimum wage increase is accompanied by the removal of stock options and bonuses. I wouldn't be surprised if the total compensation actually decreased.
For example https://techcrunch.com/2018/10/03/despite-minimum-wage-increase-some-amazon-workers-say-losing-stock-options-and-bonuses-means-they-will-make-less/ [techcrunch.com]
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