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Volkswagen (VOWG_p.DE) intends to sell electric cars for less than 20,000 euros ($22,836) and protect German jobs by converting three factories to make Tesla (TSLA.O) rivals, a source familiar with the plans said.
VW and other carmakers are struggling to adapt quickly enough to stringent rules introduced after the carmaker was found to have cheated diesel emissions tests, with its chief executive Herbert Diess warning last month that Germany's auto industry faces extinction.
Plans for VW's electric car, known as "MEB entry" and with a production volume of 200,000 vehicles, are due to be discussed at a supervisory board meeting on Nov. 16, the source said.
Fallout from cheating on diesel emissions tests continues. If German automakers, of which VW is the largest, switch to electric vehicles (EVs), will other car companies have to follow suit?
(Score: 2) by legont on Friday November 09 2018, @06:58PM (15 children)
Until portable fission is invented, electrical car is way more attached to infrastructure. That's why I can't imagine ever wanting one. Car is about freedom and no way I am giving in part of it.
"Wealth is the relentless enemy of understanding" - John Kenneth Galbraith.
(Score: 1) by Sulla on Friday November 09 2018, @07:59PM
In general my opinion is "yeah but what if I want to drive the Alcan again?" which I have done like six times in the past decade. Fixing the range issue would make me more interested or even giving me a hybrid truck would definitely get me more interested. I'm willing to negotiate here if they can give me what I currently have (equivalent of a '16 F150) without a loss of the features that I desire (6-700 mile tank range, 2k payload, 12k towing).
Ceterum censeo Sinae esse delendam
(Score: 2) by fyngyrz on Friday November 09 2018, @08:09PM (1 child)
I assume you're referring to range; certainly an ICE is well attached to the need for a great deal of petro-infrastructure. EV range is steadily, if slowly, increasing as onboard energy storage improves, and an EV with good range tends to have short-range capabilities that an ICE with good range will not - acceleration, torque curve, independence from a fixed power source type (even if it's powered by a coal plant when you buy it, it can end up being powered by solar, nuclear, all manner of less- and/or non-polluting sources eventually.)
Where I live, I absolutely have to have good range, about ~300 miles or ~485 km with the heater or A/C on the whole way, and an EV isn't close to giving it to me as yet. But the finish line is slowly approaching. When it gets here, that's the end of our buying ICE-based vehicles. My guess is that Tesla will get there first with an acceptable combination of vehicle quality and range. But I'm ready to buy if someone else gets there first. Power here is hydro in general, and solar at my home, so I feel very good about going this way.
Lastly, ICE fueling costs are extremely, and consistently, high. With solar here at my home, that will drop to basically nothing, as most of our runs are both infrequent and short-range. So we could easily keep an EV charged for $0 until we need to get out of town (and then we're back to needing ~300 miles range, which we could prep for here but once there, we'd need a huge charge from somewhere, which I expect would not be cost-free.)
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday November 10 2018, @02:57AM
I expect an electric pickup traveling steadily down a highway is going to use about 30 kw.
5 hours to go 300 miles = about 150 kwHrs.
Price per kwHr is about 10 cents, So $15 to refill. Cheaper than gas.
(Score: 4, Interesting) by PhilSalkie on Friday November 09 2018, @08:48PM
There's electric power everywhere you're likely to travel - much, much more electrical infrastructure exists than gasoline infrastructure, electricity is pre-wired to nearly every dwelling unit and business in the developed world. I put 40K+ miles on my Model S85D last year, and the convenience is unparalleled - the vehicle "fills its tank" in the carport every night, I can and do jump in the car without a thought about "infrastructure". As for "freedom", the solar panels on my house mean I'm able to charge the car without relying on OPEC or Exxon to extract and refine motor fuel for me, or having to send our military into harm's way to protect the oil shipping lanes worldwide.
Road trips are where infrastructure _is_ required, and one of the places where Tesla is way out front of every other EV manufacturer. Until the other car manufacturers invest in their own fast charge infrastructure (or license Tesla's) - and integrate it with the car to make it as seamless as Tesla has, they just aren't contenders for any non-local use of an EV. When I go on a 200+ mile trip I just tell the nav system where I'm going - the car tells me how far I can drive, adjusting its calculations continuously to account for weather and road speed. It shows locations available for high-speed charging, how many slots are available at each one, how long I should stop and charge, how much power they can provide, and what amenities the location has. There were far more times driving a Prius that I had to worry about gas stations, where the next one was, how far I could drive, and so on. It works out that by the time I want to stop and hit the restroom, the Tesla wants 20 minutes' charging. On longer trips, I'll stop for a meal and let the car charge to 100%.
I couldn't drive a Chevy Bolt from Detroit to Philly without quite a bit of route mapping and preparation ahead of time - and constant concern that I might get to a spot and find the single DC Fast Charger at some rest area is down, and have to plug into a 110V outlet and wait six hours. (Not to mention that Tesla sold as many Model 3's in Q3 of 2018 as GM sold Bolts all year - it looks to me like GM is in this game just to be able to sell gasoline cars in California (due to combined fleet efficiency requirements), and Tesla is in it for the long haul.)
IMHO, electrification of the vehicle fleet has begun, and will be all but unstoppable - electric cars just make more sense in so many ways (simplicity of design, reduced parts count, decreased pollution and noise, regenerative braking, home charging, they're a blast to drive...) Tesla's out front because they've got a game-changing, thoroughly integrated product - after driving a Tesla, driving any conventional vehicle feels like fifty different designers crammed two hundred different things into one metal box, without talking to each other, and sometimes with active hatred for the next guy over - then expected me to drive it down the road at 70 MPH. Tesla may not stay out front, may lose its way, or may run out of money - but they'll have produced vehicles which made everything else on the market look like, and operate like, something out of an antique auto show. There's a great big market for all these manufacturers to grab a share of - but Tesla's busy eating up lunches right, left, and center while the rest are announcing their plans to start designing a Tesla-killer real soon now. I look forward to seeing how things progress.
(Score: 2) by rleigh on Friday November 09 2018, @09:37PM (10 children)
Have you considered the amount of infrastructure put in place to distribute fuel all around the country, from pipelines, refineries, storage tanks at distribution centres and strategic reserves, to all the trucks to deliver to individual filling stations? It's really quite huge.
As soon as electric reaches a tipping point, the economics of this vast distribution network will rapidly decline. In a few decades it could be a distant memory, with liquid fuel being an expensive specialty item for classic cars.
(Score: 2) by legont on Saturday November 10 2018, @01:12AM (9 children)
Have you ever been in a wide electric outage situatuon? I had; twice. That was just light, mind you, and heating.
Once your vision is in place, which is likely to happen, I agree, one lucky hack will do it.
What is important though is that so called green replaces current robust infrastructure with an unproven one. Yes, at some point old school energy sources become obsolete and that's exactly when shit hits the fan. There will be boood.
"Wealth is the relentless enemy of understanding" - John Kenneth Galbraith.
(Score: 2) by deimtee on Saturday November 10 2018, @03:16AM (8 children)
Solar seems to be on every second roof here in Oz, and more is getting installed all the time. Most don't have batteries but just about every solar system now comes advertised as 'Battery-Ready'. The same battery advances that make cars economical will bring individual homes closer to cutting the powercord and telling the power companies to go pound sand. The 'blood' is going to be the power companies trapped in a cycle of raising prices for fewer customers, leading to more cord-cutting, more price rises.
It is already quite common for people building out in the sticks to check out the cost for running a line to their house*, and then go solar/battery.
*If they have to run a line that is not on your property, it can easily hit several tens of thousands of $.
If you cough while drinking cheap red wine it really cleans out your sinuses.
(Score: 2) by legont on Saturday November 10 2018, @03:58AM (7 children)
Yeah, I can see a bright future of driving a Tesla from one solar powered house to another. Kindness of strangers, all right. Somehow I don't think it will work.
"Wealth is the relentless enemy of understanding" - John Kenneth Galbraith.
(Score: 2) by deimtee on Saturday November 10 2018, @05:22AM (6 children)
I was more addressing the blackout comment. I think economical power storage is going to have far reaching effects beyond electric cars. Like it or not, solar power and storage are slowly getting cheaper and oil dearer. Eventually it will hit a tipping point and I think we will end up with a much more distributed combined generation/storage system.
Instead of gas stations, you might have a couple of acres of solar cells and energy storage, paid charging slots, and a coffee shop to wait in while your car charges. Seems like a reasonable proposition out along the highways where land can be cheap.
If you cough while drinking cheap red wine it really cleans out your sinuses.
(Score: 2) by legont on Saturday November 10 2018, @06:14AM (5 children)
Historically, changes were different. For example, oil revolution happened in addition to existing technologies - horses and wale oil. Fossil fuels added to the existing capacity. Nobody tried to forcibly switch old to new. Now it is different. New technology adepts are using unfair business practices and government support trying to replace the old. Power grid needs all the customers to function. If solar or whatever takes even 10-20% of the old system, the old one will die while the new system is not proven to function well enough. I'd have no problem if solar would take new business - new energy consumption - but it is stealing existing business. Replacing existing one should come later. Starting with robbing existing infrastructure is a receipt for a disaster.
"Wealth is the relentless enemy of understanding" - John Kenneth Galbraith.
(Score: 3, Insightful) by deimtee on Saturday November 10 2018, @11:06AM (2 children)
Yep. Not really arguing with unfair support at the moment. But I think that the trends are that pretty soon it would have happened anyway without forced incentives. Maybe not as fast, but it would still have happened.
I think we will soon have .Gov propping up power companies, and probably legislating to stop people going off grid. 'Support for Infrastructure Bill' or something similar that requires you to stay connected to the grid and pay the fees. And the fees will keep rising.
Interestingly, here in AU, technically the way the law governing utilities was originally written, the power company can come in and put a meter on your own generator and charge you for the power you generate. They did not expect that people would ever generate their own power.
They never have yet because the backlash would be huuuuge, but I can easily see them claiming you are not allowed to disconnect.
If you cough while drinking cheap red wine it really cleans out your sinuses.
(Score: 2) by legont on Sunday November 11 2018, @12:09AM (1 child)
They - power companies - have a point, I think, and our ancestors thought about it carefully.
"Wealth is the relentless enemy of understanding" - John Kenneth Galbraith.
(Score: 2) by deimtee on Sunday November 11 2018, @12:04PM
I don't understand your comment here. What point and which ancestors?
If you cough while drinking cheap red wine it really cleans out your sinuses.
(Score: 2) by rleigh on Saturday November 10 2018, @01:24PM (1 child)
If you look at history, Standard Oil did a number of rather dodgy things to force the adoption of oil and motorised transport. Later government policy encouraged it with the development of motorways and interstate systems etc. These actions displaced the previous systems, some forcibly through legistation and sharp business practices.
I can't see much difference with this change. The technology is here, and the infrastructure is being slowly rolled out. It's not yet ready for universal adoption, and won't be for a good while until we have the electrical generation and distribution capacity to match. But it's coming is an inevitability. Just like haymaking and distribution was once of great concern to driving our economies and feeding us, oil product manufacture and distribution will eventually decline as well. The legislation in progress to e.g. ban diesel in cities and eventually sale of diesel cars is harsh, but necessary given the problems we face. Is that any different than the banning of horse-drawn vehicles from fast roads?
The points about the electricial grid being a single point of failure are well made. We do need independence in case of failure. Be it diesel or other fuel generators, solar panels, wind or whatever you can make work for you. Important buildings already have this capability in place for short-term failure, but we are already mostly entirely reliant on a functional grid, and it's not realistic for all of us to go off-grid. The point about distributed storage is also well made. It may well be that car batteries themselves are part of that solution, as well as PowerWall type domestic storage systems.
(Score: 2) by legont on Sunday November 11 2018, @12:06AM
Company I work for has large headquarters in Manhattan and we produce our own electricity using fuel cells. Yes, we burn fossils for electricity right in the middle of the island.
The reason is that it is cheaper than to pay for grid electricity plus to have backup generators. We, however, still attached to the grid in case of emergency.
Now, look at it from the power company point of view where cheap electricity especially a reliable kind is a matter of scale which we reduce. If I were their boss, I would not give us emergency power.
Here is the punch line: imagine Lehman Brothers bankruptcy and all the follow up because it was refused power. That's where we are now.
"Wealth is the relentless enemy of understanding" - John Kenneth Galbraith.