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New Zealand has sunk to a new low in modern education. A number of high school students have started a petition to not be failed on a national history exam as they did not understand the meaning of the word 'trivial'. For those not in the know, trivial means "of little value or importance" which aptly describes this petition given that it is being made by grade 13 high school students who by all rights should know the meaning of this word. More than 2400 people have signed the petition 'expressing their frustration with the exam question'. Student Logan Stadnyk claimed that he was "lucky" to have known what the word meant, as half his class didn't. "New Zealand History Teachers' Association chairman Graeme Ball has sided with the students calling the exam a 'little bit of a snafu'" but not providing an adequate answer as to why students in grade 13 would not understand a common English word.
Have the three Rs lost all meaning in schools? Are we failing our students? Or is this just another case of today's teens being snowflakes?
(Score: 4, Insightful) by black6host on Saturday November 17 2018, @10:55PM (45 children)
If we're not teaching a decent vocabulary it's not the kids' fault. They are, after all, still under adult care for the most part even if some are of the age of majority. Nonetheless, a word such as "trivial" should have been taught long before then.
Now, of all those people who signed the petition... Do I think they all failed to understand the meaning of the word? Absolutely not! I'm sure many just hopped on the bandwagon.
Now, I will admit my view is as a citizen of the USA. For all I know "trivial" is not used much in NZ so take the above with a grain of salt. However, if the teachers think the students should know the word, they should teach the word and its use is fair game on a test.
(Score: 4, Insightful) by The Mighty Buzzard on Saturday November 17 2018, @11:13PM (21 children)
Beg to differ. Not knowing the meaning of such a common bit of vocabulary doesn't mean you're not being taught; it means you're failing to learn anything without being explicitly taught and that particular failing is entirely your own. Now if it was never in any material presented at school, it shouldn't be on a test. But they're still dumbasses for having an abysmal vocabulary as high school seniors.
My rights don't end where your fear begins.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday November 17 2018, @11:17PM (14 children)
High school seniors are in grade 12, this is grade 13.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday November 17 2018, @11:44PM
Same thing ... it's like turning your guitar up to 11.
(Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Sunday November 18 2018, @12:48AM (7 children)
Are you speaking for the US, or for New Zealand, or for Zimbabwe, or for Brazil, or . . . .
We are kinda US centric here. The story is about New Zealand. TFS says grade 13 high school students, so I took the statement at it's face value. Maybe they've always had 13 years of schooling. Or, maybe they just tacked on kindergarden, and renumbered from there. Here, in the US, high school seniors are in grade 12. It appears that in New Zealand, high school seniors are in grade 13.
Any Zealanders want to set us straight?
I'm going to buy my defensive radar from Temu, just like Venezuela!
(Score: 1, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday November 18 2018, @01:46AM (5 children)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Year_Thirteen [wikipedia.org]
(Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Sunday November 18 2018, @02:10AM (1 child)
That didn't take very long. Are you a New Zealander?
I'm going to buy my defensive radar from Temu, just like Venezuela!
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday November 18 2018, @11:54AM
Same AC: no, I'm Oz. But the Tasman's not too big.
(Score: 2) by DaTrueDave on Sunday November 18 2018, @05:13AM (2 children)
Ah, so it's for people that can't earn their diploma in Year 12. Stupid kids and kids that had travel opportunities or other obligations?
(Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Sunday November 18 2018, @06:51AM
I wouldn't be so quick to jump to conclusions. Sometimes, scheduling just doesn't work out to the student's best advantage. I could have used a thirteenth year to get a couple more electives, and third year of chem. Had I done so, I would have taken another year of biology as well. That only accounts for half the day, so I may (or may not) have taken another English or lit course.
Years later, my brainy son could have put a thirteenth year to good use. He had all the prerequisites for college, but he would have taken the maths that he didn't fit in already.
One of my nephews complained of something similar when he was finishing high school, but I can't remember now what he was wanting to fit in.
A lot of that depends on the school that you attend, as well. For instance, if you go to a school that doesn't offer chem beyond 2nd year, or calc, or whatever, then that thirteenth year would do you little good. Then it would only be a make up year for incompletes and fails.
And, finally - there may be some kids who haven't yet reached the age of majority at the end of the 12th year. Might as well stay in school, if you can't get a decent job, right? That may vary by country - we don't see much of that in the US any more. Most schools just won't allow you to start 1st grade until you're six years and some months now. I was five years old when I started, and didn't turn 18 until days before graduation.
I'm going to buy my defensive radar from Temu, just like Venezuela!
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday November 18 2018, @12:02PM
Actually an extra year for finishing high school can have great pedagogical* benefit.
A minor point - in this part of the world a diploma is a post secondary qualification.
*I use that word a lot, and it does mean what I think it means.
(Score: 3, Informative) by dry on Sunday November 18 2018, @05:11AM
Here in Canada, some areas finish high school with grade 12 and other areas with grade 13. I think grade 13 is more voluntary but not sure as I only lived in areas that only went to grade 12.
(Score: 2) by Nuke on Sunday November 18 2018, @10:36AM (2 children)
It would very much help if someone from NZ could tell us what age in years the kids are in this Grade 13. Anyone? I don't have a clue.
(Score: 1, Touché) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday November 18 2018, @05:34PM (1 child)
Yes, please. ANYONE?
Gosh, if only there were some other way to find out this information other than people repeatedly begging on SN for some knowledgeable Kiwi to chime in! Thanks to that Canadian in the above post for providing random anecdotal data about his experience in Canada (which may or may not have any relationship to anything that goes on with New Zealand)! That's amazing!
I mean, imagine if there were some sort of comprehensive free readily available resource [wikipedia.org] that might have information like this, perhaps even with directions to find more reputable resources to fill in such information! Wouldn't that be something?? Or maybe even some sort of apparatus to search for said information, a sort of... engine, if you will...
But alas. I don't have a clue about this wacky New Zealand education thing either. I went to the local library and asked to see their Facts on File database, but their microfilm reader was out of order. Then I remembered that I had a friend of a friend who was an extra in the original Lord of the Rings movie. So I sent him a telegram. I'll report back when I hear from him. I'd call him, but when I contacted my phone operator (who seemed confused to actually be talking to anyone who needed assistance in dialing), I was told I'd need to upgrade my long distance plan for them to place the call over the international wires for me.
Oh well.. let's just hope we hear from someone here. That would really help! Anyone?!? Maybe someone should start looking into creating a resource that we could look up easy to find information like this... perhaps a sort of interconnected network that's around the world or somethin'...
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday November 18 2018, @09:15PM
Anyone can edit wikipedia though, is that a reliable source?
(Score: 3, Insightful) by PartTimeZombie on Sunday November 18 2018, @09:53PM (1 child)
We don't have High School seniors at all. These people are "Year 13" which means they are either 18, or very nearly 18.
The youngest zombie in fact sat this exam, and yes, he knows what trivial means, because he's an 18 year old with English as his first language.
Until I saw this story I would not have thought it possible to attain the age of 18, speaking english as your first language and not know what trivial meant.
In my view these students' parents ought to be ashamed of themselves.
(Score: 4, Informative) by driverless on Monday November 19 2018, @03:31AM
Going from this quote in the story:
I would say it's quite possible.
I'm also surprised that this person is taking a Year 13 exam, and not still stuck repeating something around Year 5. No Child left Behind, I guess.
(Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday November 18 2018, @12:55PM (4 children)
Nonsense. How can a normal person teach themselves to teach themselves at a remotely acceptable level of efficiency when they're bombarded by information 24/7? When we were kids there were 2-3 linear algebra books, 2-3 differential books, and a couple of newspapers everyone read and you were expected to understand without opening a vocabulary. Nowadays kids are running into foreign loan words from Spanish in American English, Gaulish in Irish/Scottish English, Hindi in India's English, Latin/Welsh/Cockney in British English... All without being able to differentiate what's slang and what's necessary for academic purposes.
If the education system expects children to know a certain word, they should put it in writing. You think "trivia/trivial" should be in the core vocabulary? I agree. Lets make it official. In all the non-English countries there's a core vocabulary list students are required to know. It's done to prevent such situations as private schools with partial public funding from deliberately using obscure words that are only taught in their associated lower-education private schools from fixing the examinations to only welcome their own students. So, have the school board write down the list and make it mandatory for teaching materiel and examinations not to exceed it. You can even go the Japanese way and force the newspapers to stick to it and add a footnote whenever they use a word that isn't no the list.
The English vocabulary is huge with enough regional and age differences to boggle commonsense.
(Score: 3, Insightful) by The Mighty Buzzard on Sunday November 18 2018, @02:36PM (2 children)
See the learning of their native language from birth to age five or so. It not only happens, it happens for every single human being on the planet.
As for that particular word, there is no way in hell they didn't hear it enough times while reaching their current age to infer at least a reasonable approximation of its meaning.
My rights don't end where your fear begins.
(Score: 2) by http on Sunday November 18 2018, @11:21PM (1 child)
Before the brief 90s phenomenon of the board game "Trivial Pursuit", I had never heard the word used outside of undergraduate math classes. Your experience is not universal, and neither is mine, but your absolute insistence suggests an unwillingness on your part to imagine someone else's experience.
Sadly, the disease is common enough that there's a name for it.
I browse at -1 when I have mod points. It's unsettling.
(Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Sunday November 18 2018, @11:40PM
Hi, welcome to the world with the Internet, http. My experience is hardly isolated given the global forums everyone interacts in nowadays.
My rights don't end where your fear begins.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday November 20 2018, @12:18PM
"Inshallah" literally means "of god wills".
It is what you say when rape someone
(Score: 3, Insightful) by Fluffeh on Wednesday November 21 2018, @10:48PM
Totally agree.
I would consider that list of signatures a list of people to never hire, and probably avoid in general.
At that age, you're an adult and you don't understand a common word - okay, sure it might be that you were never specifically TAUGHT that word. I don't recall ever going into class and reading pages of the dictionary to learn all the words either, but to basically reject any ownership of your shortcomings and DEMAND you are marked up without merit of being able to answer a question correctly? That's just downright embarrassing and as far as I am concerned, perfectly indicative of how you will react to potential poor performance in the future.
(Score: 5, Touché) by archfeld on Saturday November 17 2018, @11:15PM (16 children)
I would think citizens of New Zealand would intrinsically understand the word Trivial. The next step would be a year spent going over every word in the dictionary, as soon as someone explained what that was and how to use one that wasn't a smart phone app ?
For the NSA : Explosives, guns, assassination, conspiracy, primers, detonators, initiators, main charge, nuclear charge
(Score: 3, Interesting) by Ethanol-fueled on Saturday November 17 2018, @11:57PM (11 children)
Even in shitville aka El Centro, California, teachers made great effort to expand the horizons of their third-grade kids. A common teacher exercise in this state was to have each teacher come up with their own random "grab-bags" of their favorite words and phrases, such as "Maori" or "Faux pax", instilling not only the definitions of "weird words from foreign lands," but the importance of their meaning. It is funny how I discovered who the "Maori" were when I was 9 years old, and all by one teacher's fetish.
There was no political nonsense in that training, the goal was to show to the student that there are weird words and phrases out there that not only show the importance of vocabulary, but worldliness.
Unfortunately, (((they))) decided that the method was making the generations of youth too intelligent for their own good, and proper public education had to be made dumber to foment future generations of mindless, obedient consumers. Hence, we have common-core. Where the teacher can decide even in basic mathematics who to pass and who to fail regardless of the skill of the student.
(Score: 0, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday November 18 2018, @01:37AM (3 children)
According to their own website, Common Core was a joint effort between 48 states,
http://www.corestandards.org/about-the-standards/development-process/ [corestandards.org]
Your post made some sense until you started your anti-Semitic rant in the last paragraph...
but I guess this is normal for an E-F post?
(Score: 1, Troll) by archfeld on Sunday November 18 2018, @02:02AM (2 children)
Where in that post is even a mention of anti-Semitism, or a mention of any religion, or people except a vague reference to (((((They))))) ?
For the NSA : Explosives, guns, assassination, conspiracy, primers, detonators, initiators, main charge, nuclear charge
(Score: 1, Offtopic) by Pslytely Psycho on Sunday November 18 2018, @07:09AM (1 child)
While you're correct there was no direct reference, our alcohol soaked friend is quite fond of dog whistles and uses 'they, or them' frequently to refer to the Jews that really run the country and are hiding under his bed and in his closet.
If a bagel shop opened up across the street, it would be confirmation to him that 'they' were invading his neighborhood.
He's also not fond of anyone darker than typing paper.
Alex Jones lawyer inspires new TV series: CSI Moron Division.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday November 19 2018, @08:13PM
There was a direct reference. If I say 'jew' or 'kike' or '(((they)))' the meaning is direct and clear. Two of these carry vitriol and imply hatred and bigotyr, though.
If you don't know 'trivial' or you don't know '(((they)))' that's fine. But when someone else uses them, you should assume they do know the words they're using.
(Score: 2) by archfeld on Sunday November 18 2018, @01:39AM (4 children)
LOL and you used the word fetish. I knew I liked your smart ass for some reason. So is there a recreational pot shop in El Centro that allows for walk-ins ? I'm in Yuma and been looking for something nearby over the border but have had no luck ?
For the NSA : Explosives, guns, assassination, conspiracy, primers, detonators, initiators, main charge, nuclear charge
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday November 18 2018, @01:48AM (3 children)
Haven't needed to do this for some time now...
http://lmgtfy.com/?q=recreational+pot+shop+in+El+Centro [lmgtfy.com]
(Score: 2) by archfeld on Sunday November 18 2018, @01:57AM (2 children)
Tried that...
About half the shops listed are out of business or don't answer the phone. The others that did answer were delivery ONLY, to a private residence. I was hoping that someone local would know of good source. Thanks anyways.
For the NSA : Explosives, guns, assassination, conspiracy, primers, detonators, initiators, main charge, nuclear charge
(Score: 2) by Pslytely Psycho on Sunday November 18 2018, @07:36AM
Wow, a pot shop that went out of business??? Were they run by the government? Who are the only people who couldn't make money selling hookers and whiskey in Nevada when they took over the Mustang Ranch!
Up here in the PNW (land of forests, lakes, mountains, rivers and four actual seasons..) I pass seven recreational pot stores on my way to work (10.2 miles). They are nearly as ubiquitous as espresso stands, of which I pass eleven.
Hehehe, every day is an excuse for a sale as well. Weed, oil, wax and such are not only tested for purity (no chemicals allowed) and potency and packaged in nice, well lit stores with upwards of fifty strains of indica, sativa, and hybrids, but it's cheaper than the street prices were.
The black market here is dead.
Fucking win-win!
Sample text from the Green Nugget today (Saturday)
Vendor Day! Uncle Roaner in the house for vendor day! 30% off on Uncle Roaners buds all night long! 100mg candies for $17.50! 25% off all concentrates and cartridges! Open till 11:45 pm!
Of course Lovely Buds, Satori, Cannabis and Glass along with Green Leaf and others all have daily sales, it's a weed tokin' paradise...
Alex Jones lawyer inspires new TV series: CSI Moron Division.
(Score: 2) by Pslytely Psycho on Sunday November 18 2018, @07:38AM
Oh yeah, ALL of our stores are walk in.
Some deliver too, but they are the minority and it's not free.
Ya live on the wrong border for buds bud!
Alex Jones lawyer inspires new TV series: CSI Moron Division.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday November 18 2018, @03:44AM
No, (((they))) weren't involved in that. It was [[[they]]] who dumbed down the school system!
(Score: -1, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday November 18 2018, @06:58AM
You're just too f'ing stupid and absolutely nobody cares about your childhood shit.
(Score: 3, Insightful) by PartTimeZombie on Sunday November 18 2018, @09:57PM (3 children)
I am a citizen of New Zealand, and can't figure out how a native english speaker gets to the age of 18 and not know what trivial means.
(Score: 2) by archfeld on Sunday November 18 2018, @10:36PM (1 child)
That's good to hear. Obviously a big part of this article is click bait and trolling then. I've been to Aussie Land but it was for work and despite my intentions I was never able to get the time to Visit NZ. I am a big Rugby and Footie fan though, and the All Blacks rock. I played for the Hayward Griffins while in College though I never made first team the game is kick ass.
https://www.facebook.com/HaywardRugby [facebook.com]
For the NSA : Explosives, guns, assassination, conspiracy, primers, detonators, initiators, main charge, nuclear charge
(Score: 2) by PartTimeZombie on Sunday November 18 2018, @11:04PM
Good on ya mate.
I too played rugby (mostly because I had no choice) but due to going to a tiny country school during the 1970's I have never actually played a game of rugby wearing boots.
Bare feet only in those days.
(Score: 2) by driverless on Monday November 19 2018, @03:35AM
As additional info, this whole story is so ridiculous sounding (a student called Daniel Snakez, and most news media seems to be re-reporting a story from Australian media, who aren't going to present the most positive view of NZ) that I took the highly unusual step for a web board of trying to track down a definitive source. There is one, the NZQA [nzqa.govt.nz]. Their comment on this is:
(Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday November 18 2018, @04:48AM
Disagree. Starting an online petition about a word on an official exam? Wow, just, wow.
(Score: 3, Funny) by suburbanitemediocrity on Sunday November 18 2018, @06:37AM (3 children)
As a math major, trivial is one of the most important words. You learn multiple ways to trivially fit it into any sentence.
(Score: 3, Touché) by Pslytely Psycho on Sunday November 18 2018, @07:42AM
That's not a trivial task. Sometimes it's quite difficult to find something trivial enough to utilize the word trivial to describe how trivial it is.
Alex Jones lawyer inspires new TV series: CSI Moron Division.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday November 18 2018, @12:06PM
But in some conversations its utility is negligibly small.
(Score: 2) by arslan on Monday November 19 2018, @12:55AM
It is not as simple as you think...
.. see what I did there?
(Score: 2) by Demena on Sunday November 18 2018, @10:25PM
Trivial Pursuit is played everywhere. There is no excuse but illiteracy for not knowing or recognising the word. Should be a mandatory fail for that alone.