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With the UN calling for a ceasefire between Israel and Palestinians in the Gaza Strip an article written by Gary Brecher and first published in 2012 by NSFWCORP (now part of Pando), lessons from Gaza - suggesting that Palestinian durability may beat Israel's high-tech weaponry, remains remarkably relevant today.
What's going on in Gaza is war, but not the kind any commander from the past would understand. On paper, Israel should be winning easily, because they've got the weapons, the numbers, the organization. The weapons Hamas is firing into Israel are primitive things, unguided rocket artillery, the kind that couldn't hit the ground if it wasn't for the law of gravity. On the other side, the Israelis get the best weaponry the US can give them.
But it's not that simple. Israel may win this battle, but it's lost the war already. You see that in the confusion the IDF shows about what to do. They've tried stomping hard on Gaza. In late 2008 through early 2009, "Operation Cast Lead" sent IDF troops and planes smashing into this tiny overpopulated slum. They killed 1400 Palestinians, and it didn't do much but make everybody sick to their stomachs - including even some Israelis, once they got over their initial gloating.
(Score: 5, Insightful) by Nerdfest on Sunday July 13 2014, @10:12PM
This is confusing PR and military wars. Israel could flatten most populated areas. The UN and the rest of the world would be displeased at least. Palestine has at a minimum, many country's dislike of Jews going for it as well as their underdog status. If they stopped lobbing missiles at civilians, kidnapping people, and fighting amongst themselves, the global pressure against Israel would be even higher.
(Score: 3, Insightful) by tibman on Sunday July 13 2014, @10:24PM
I agree, it is a very silly headline. If Palestine "wins" by randomly blowing up parts Israel, then sure. But that doesn't win them anything but return fire.
SN won't survive on lurkers alone. Write comments.
(Score: 5, Insightful) by c0lo on Sunday July 13 2014, @10:49PM
For some value of win. TFA:
Man, if TFA is right - and it seems so to my mind - it's ugly: there's no clean exits from the hole they dug themselves
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoFiw2jMy-0
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday July 13 2014, @11:16PM
It is so depressing how that article, written in 2012, is still 100% relevant to what's happening today. I skipped the blurb at the top and would have sworn it was written yesterday.
(Score: 2, Insightful) by fnj on Monday July 14 2014, @12:18AM
Practically all of the rhetoric from Israel's 1947-1948 birth (and long before) is still found today. When you have an entire people inculcated with base unreasoning hatred, their souls completely taken over by it, that ain't goin' away any time soon. I don't care how much you crush militarily, try to talk, or even negotiation. Only one of two things could ever quench that fire decisively, and neither one of them would be welcomed by any sane mind.
(Score: 3, Insightful) by Nerdfest on Sunday July 13 2014, @11:17PM
Don't forget to add religion and being indoctrinated into hating another religion as part of their education. It really can't end well.
(Score: 4, Interesting) by c0lo on Sunday July 13 2014, @11:25PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoFiw2jMy-0
(Score: 3, Insightful) by isostatic on Monday July 14 2014, @09:06AM
Not only did they grow up in a war, they grew up in a prison. Every day the IDF claims "go somewhere else". To a population of 2 million living in an area 1/10th the size of a Texan ranch [texasmonthly.com], surrounded by the IDF on all sides, there is nowhere else to go.
There really is very little else to do other than fuck and fight.
(Score: 2) by VLM on Monday July 14 2014, @12:17PM
"Logically, in classical military terms, it's simple: you'd massacre or expel the whole population. Israel doesn't quite have the ruthlessness to do that"
A lot of important people gain a lot of power and make a lot of money by "defending Israel" and on the other side "fighting Israel". Putting them out of business on both sides isn't happening unless you've got a better business plan for both sides to gain power and make money. Can't think of one? Yeah that's where the best minds have been stuck for about 60 years now.
Its an example of a situation that on an individual basis is very unstable, but the overall group dynamic is hyper stable and isn't likely to change in the future.
Setting up an embargo on the Palestinians / cutting off all USA aid to Israel would lower the death rate (at least temporarily) but would do nothing to disrupt the stability of eternal war as their primary business model.
The only solution I can think of is removal of both players from the fight. Send all the Jews to ... I donno which is kinda a problem, new york city or skokie or someplace I donno, and kick out all the Palestinians, and then nuke the empty land from orbit to be sure. Thats the nice way to do it. The not so nice way is ecological, wait until famine arrives and wipes out both sides, or geological, wait long enough and a tidal wave will kill them all, even if it takes 1M years.
I'm not sure what would happen if you sent in another power and victimized both sides for awhile and then left. Basically a UN or USA peacekeeping mission. Embrace, extend, and extinguish the existing warfare business model by becoming the new bad guy on the block killing 100 people a day on both sides for like a decade, THEN take off and leave and hope they cooperate. Good luck. Even if you had to try this like 10 times until it worked, that's only what, like 7 million people total, and at the current death rate you'd come out ahead in the long run after only 400 years or so.
A close analogy to the peacekeeping mission would be a new religious conversion. Perhaps both sides converting to Scientology would patch things up a bit. Unfortunately this might be their best hope.
(Score: 1) by fadrian on Tuesday July 15 2014, @03:25PM
I donno which is kinda a problem, new york city or skokie or someplace I donno...
Well, there's always Palm Springs and Miami, too, for the older ones.
That is all.
(Score: 3, Insightful) by frojack on Sunday July 13 2014, @11:14PM
Wait, why is this modded flamebait?
It is a concise statement of the problem.
If Israel responded with indiscriminate random bombardment on a large scale, all of these stupid missile attacks would cease.
Israel isn't fighting a military campaign. It is strictly a Public Relations campaign.
(One, by the way, which has never succeeded in all of history. Its pretty much a fools errand).
No, you are mistaken. I've always had this sig.
(Score: 2) by Nerdfest on Sunday July 13 2014, @11:24PM
It's modded flamebait because it's not in support of the side winning the PR war. I also see the term "apartheid" being brought up to stir the pot.
Part of Israel's problem is that they are treating the problem as a military conflict in the same way that the US treated Vietnam when it started. They either need to treat it fully as a military problem, or as a PR problem. Or,m both sides could perhaps put religion and history aside and come to a compromise that would help both sides. I have very little confidence that it will happen of course, primarily for the reason that history and religion will *not* be put aside.
(Score: 1) by Arik on Sunday July 13 2014, @11:39PM
A military problem? The existence of indigenous peoples is a military problem? Quite simply, that implies genocide.
A PR problem? It will all go away if we just convince Important People to quit paying any mind? No, that does not work either. The people are real, their suffering is real, and that is the problem. Ignoring the wound only causes it to fester, and that is how we got here. Treating it as a PR problem only makes sense if you define the problem as the prohibitions on genocide, in which case see above.
The problem is that the Israeli national narrative defies reality. It denies the existence of the very people it rules. It denies their past, their present, and their future. No Israeli government will ever be able to negotiate peace until a sufficient portion of the electorate escapes from the myths that have been built up to justify the occupation, and then you have the incumbent government working overtime to reinforce and extend the same myths, to rally the voters behind them.
If laughter is the best medicine, who are the best doctors?
(Score: 1) by Techlectica on Monday July 14 2014, @05:21AM
Ha! Both sides should be so lucky. Unfortunately there appears to be no Palestinian claimant to the mantle of Nelson Mandela, (and if there was, AIPAC and Israel-friendly interests in USA media corps would make sure you never heard about them). Israeli right wing fanatics also seem to assassinate any possible P.W. Botha emulators. There might have been a chance to accomplish something lasting in the 80s after the Camp David Accords, but that was deliberately sabotaged. Shamir, Netanyahu, and Arafat are the architects of this Charlie-Foxtrot. One of these days Israel is going to be facing a loony tune who won't care that Israel has nukes (the self-styled Caliph leader of ISIL is the current best bet but it's doubtful he'll be the last), who will tap into a lot of deep-seated anger at Occidental (mainly American) intervention in Iraq and the rest of the Middle East (thanks to W), and who Russia and China will be more than happy to supply with weapons to weaken American Middle Eastern influence.
At this point the best we can hope for is that if it goes biological it won't spread too far beyond the Middle East (a faint hope at best given commercial aviation). OK the real best we can hope for is that something like Polywell will make fusion a practical replacement for oil and result in nobody caring about about the Middle East except for its inhabitants, but there's a lot of entrenched interests who prefer those funds get spent on tax breaks for multinational oil corporations and propping up the Israeli economy.
(Score: 2) by isostatic on Monday July 14 2014, @09:09AM
I also see the term "apartheid" being brought up to stir the pot.
Have you ever been to Israel? Have you ever taken a drive from Jerusalem to somewhere like Ramallah? Past the Berlin Wall, used your western passport to get through the military checkpoints, while watching anyone with a Palestinian ID card being forced into metal cages on their walk over the border (no way they're allowed to drive)?
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday July 14 2014, @11:10AM
> used your western passport to get through the military checkpoints, while watching
> anyone with a Palestinian ID card being forced into metal cages on their walk over
> the border (no way they're allowed to drive)?
This is an essay by a former soldier in the israeli defense force who was assigned to work internal checkpoints in palestine. He describes how these sorts of situations destroy the souls of both the people who pass through and the people who man the checkpoints. It is intense and heart-rending and it might help outsiders understand how corrosive the situation is for all involved.
The Checkpoint. [bostonreview.net]
(Score: 2, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday July 13 2014, @11:41PM
I asked the same thing when I saw it, which is why I modded it up.
Please, please, moderators, do a better job. The moderation system is not to be used as "+1 Agree" and "-1 Disagree/Fuck You".
(Score: 2) by keplr on Monday July 14 2014, @05:30PM
Exactly. That's why they have their ambassador to the USA telling us on NPR, in perfect Midwestern news-anchor accented English, that this is all about the Israeli government's responsibility to defend their citizens. They made it seem like they had no idea what could possible be angering the Palestinians. It's just brave Israel, beset on all sides by anti-West Islamic enemies, standing alone against unprovoked assaults.
This is going to go on forever until the entire area is split roughly in half. This will require Israel to shrink in size, which isn't acceptable to the Israeli hardliners. They'd rather keep the land and suffering a permanent smoldering conflict. A few scores of people killed every year is acceptable if they get to hold that land. Nothing will change until that attitude changes. It doesn't help that the primary motivation to hold that land is fundamentally irrational: a belief that a supernatural being promised their ancestors exclusive rights to it in perpetuity.
I don't respond to ACs.
(Score: 2) by Hairyfeet on Monday July 14 2014, @12:36AM
Why is this flamebait? All the people of Gaza are doing is making sure they get to attend a LOT of funerals and get to live in rubble, whereas if they were to use peaceful non violent protest they could easily make it another South Africa. As long as they keep playing videos of "jihad is great and fun!" on their TVs while constantly lobbying rockets? There isn't going to be any sympathy for them, at least not from anybody but the same ME countries that keep printing the old 1930 anti-semite propaganda and look like whack-a-doodles.
ACs are never seen so don't bother. Always ready to show SJWs for the racists they are.
(Score: 2) by Nerdfest on Monday July 14 2014, @01:13AM
That's not even quite true. There already seems to be a great deal of support for them, probably more than they truly deserve. All thy need to do is help themselves by stopping the rhetoric and violence, or at least attenuating it drastically. Last I heard they (Hamas?) wouldn't even rescind their stated goal of destroying Israel. It's hard to throw full support behind them (for many ... not all).
(Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Monday July 14 2014, @03:39AM
There are no moderates on the Muslim side of this thing. Israel has to few moderates, granted - but there are no moderates on the other side. It's all or nothing. That is the rule of this entire conflict. The rule is stated quite clearly, and you will not modify that rule of war.
No, it does not conform to any Geneva convention. No, it does not conform to western ideals. But, it doesn't have to conform to our ideas of proper rules of war. This is THEIR war, and the Muslims will conduct it on their own terms.
There are almost no Muslims in the world who will refer to Israel as a state, or a nation, or a country. It is always the "Zionist entity". Israel can only win it's existence with a genocidal campaign of it's own. Islam has already promised to eradicate Israel, at any cost.
Abortion is the number one killed of children in the United States.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday July 14 2014, @04:20AM
> There are no moderates on the Muslim side of this thing.
Attitudes like yours are what escalates this conflict.
I married a girl from a muslim family. Her niece married a jew.
You have no idea about the real world and your black-and-white thinking prevents you from figuring it out.
(Score: 2) by isostatic on Monday July 14 2014, @09:43AM
Last I heard they (Hamas?) wouldn't even rescind their stated goal of destroying Israel. It's hard to throw full support behind them (for many ... not all).
Believe it or not, Hamas are actually the "moderates" in Gaza. There's a large portion of american allies in there (Saudi Wahhabists) and that would replace Hamas at the drop of the hat if they showed any weakness.
Despite the current death-toll in Gaza, the population is still increasing. The net growth is about 144 per day, the extra deaths from Israeli bombing is about 25 per day. Israel will have to do a lot more to even arrest growth in Gaza.
Israel suffers an existential crisis, not from a few missiles which are barely stronger than fireworks, but from a demographic mismatch. Even if Israeli population growth accelerated to match that of Palestinian, Israel would run out of room and resources. Throw in 50 years of growth and you end up with region with 30 million people in an area the size of Wales that's currently half desert. Add climate change and water problems into the mix and it's a disaster.
(Score: 2) by Thexalon on Monday July 14 2014, @02:40PM
They've tried that before, and it hasn't worked. Heck, Fatah hasn't attacked Israel from the West Bank for about 15 years now, and all it's gotten them is losing approximately 2/3 of the territory of the West Bank. Hamas gets the support they get for rocket attacks on Israel because they look at what's happening to the West Bank and assume it would happen to them too if they didn't fight.
The only thing that stops a bad guy with a compiler is a good guy with a compiler.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday July 14 2014, @06:57PM
israel has been stealing land, expelling, brutalizing and killing palestinians for decades. the will go all the way to the end and nobody will intervene.
"global pressure against Israel would be even higher?" -- wtf?!?? there has been no real pressure whatsoever. ever.
TFA is mere propaganda, pretending there's an actual conflict where there's nothing but genocide. israel has lost nothing but humanity. as for their goals, they are close to win: they have patiently pursued them and are close to finish the first phase, which is cleansing palestine which they say is their holy land. but i don't see any reason why they would stop there.