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SoylentNews
posted by
NCommander
on Monday July 21 2014, @07:00PM
from the because-code-bunnies-don't-go-away-until-you-code-it dept.
from the because-code-bunnies-don't-go-away-until-you-code-it dept.
So, on a less serious topic than incorporation, I wanted to open the floor on a possible new feature to Slashcode; the possibility of reading and posting via a standard newsreader. This idea has gnawed on my brain since GoLive, so a few weeks ago, I started coding a proof-of-concept in my spare time to see if the idea is even feasible.
The answer: Yes, it is.
I'm mostly interested in seeing if there's enough people who would like this feature to develop it fully. As of right now, this is a single-shot export of the site, but it would be relatively easy to expand (at least in terms of SN->NetNews. Full bidirectionality is more difficult). For more information (as well as access to the proof-of-concept), read more past the break.Just to prove this actually exists:
Now, obviously, this isn't a new idea; NNTP (Network News Transfer Protocol) access for the other site was promised WAY back in 2000-ish, but I wanted to see if it could reasonably be done. Because of the quirks (and headache) of running INN (InterNet News), combined with the fact that most discussion forums these days are flat vs. threaded, very few (if any) forums offer access by NNTP. In addition, given our community is very tech-savy, I could see a fair number of users wanting a way to participate in SN without even using their web browser (the NNTP feed looks good with a newsreader on my phone).
These two aspects led me to spend a few weekends reading through RFC 1036, and learning the ins and outs of how NetNews/USENET works, and seeing how it would be possible to interface slashcode to an instance of INN. (I didn't really want to implement an NNTP server that read against our database). I discovered the "easiest" solution was to make slashcode appear as a remote news server accessible via UUCP (Unix-To-Unix Copy), which meant it was simply a matter of writing out a massive spool file, then feeding it into INN with rnews.
After a fair bit of hacking, swearing at perl, and other fun, I was successfully able to export both stories and comments into INN. This opens some interesting possibilities in terms of accessibility to the site. Assuming I continue work on this, it would allow mirroring SoylentNews across the entirety of USENET. From the progress I made thus far, I do think full bi-directionality is indeed possible (with "creative" use of moderated groups on the INN side). There are some headaches, such as some newsreaders (like Thunderbird) handle cancels and supersedes headers poorly (required for times we edit articles), but I do believe the most basic problems are surmountable.
Now, obviously, being a proof of concept, some caveats apply:
The answer: Yes, it is.
I'm mostly interested in seeing if there's enough people who would like this feature to develop it fully. As of right now, this is a single-shot export of the site, but it would be relatively easy to expand (at least in terms of SN->NetNews. Full bidirectionality is more difficult). For more information (as well as access to the proof-of-concept), read more past the break.Just to prove this actually exists:
Now, obviously, this isn't a new idea; NNTP (Network News Transfer Protocol) access for the other site was promised WAY back in 2000-ish, but I wanted to see if it could reasonably be done. Because of the quirks (and headache) of running INN (InterNet News), combined with the fact that most discussion forums these days are flat vs. threaded, very few (if any) forums offer access by NNTP. In addition, given our community is very tech-savy, I could see a fair number of users wanting a way to participate in SN without even using their web browser (the NNTP feed looks good with a newsreader on my phone).
These two aspects led me to spend a few weekends reading through RFC 1036, and learning the ins and outs of how NetNews/USENET works, and seeing how it would be possible to interface slashcode to an instance of INN. (I didn't really want to implement an NNTP server that read against our database). I discovered the "easiest" solution was to make slashcode appear as a remote news server accessible via UUCP (Unix-To-Unix Copy), which meant it was simply a matter of writing out a massive spool file, then feeding it into INN with rnews.
After a fair bit of hacking, swearing at perl, and other fun, I was successfully able to export both stories and comments into INN. This opens some interesting possibilities in terms of accessibility to the site. Assuming I continue work on this, it would allow mirroring SoylentNews across the entirety of USENET. From the progress I made thus far, I do think full bi-directionality is indeed possible (with "creative" use of moderated groups on the INN side). There are some headaches, such as some newsreaders (like Thunderbird) handle cancels and supersedes headers poorly (required for times we edit articles), but I do believe the most basic problems are surmountable.
Now, obviously, being a proof of concept, some caveats apply:
- The current setup is a single-shot import of the database into INN, and will not be updated regularly
- The main page is read-only for obvious reasons
- No in-line quoting
-
- This is something of an annoying issue as slashcode and traditional USENET quoting styles don't exactly mess. I can modify the export to include one or two levels of quoting on each post, which should help with usability, but this isn't an ideal solution. If I do this, the result will be much closer to email quoting than USENET quoting
- I'm open to discussion on how best to fix this (if at all)
- A couple of posts got mangled through the convert, especially ones that have HTML encodes, or unicode
- I reused the email generator to format both articles and comments, which means that they render "weirdly" when spooled out (they're rendered as spaces instead of ">" characters
All of the above should be considered pre-alpha quality, more like a whiteboard of insanity. If, despite all these caveats, you'd still like to check out the spool for yourself, point your newsreader at nntp-test.soylentnews.org. There are three groups on the server, soylentnews.discuss, just for general discussion for folks who come by, a test group for testing posting, and the spool itself at soylentnews.test.mainpage.
I look forward to hearing your thoughts and comments below.
[UPDATE: Corrected typos and added links]
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Request For Comments: SoylentNews->Netnews (NNTP) Gateway
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Q: What is the difference between a duck?
A: One leg is both the same.
(Score: 3, Insightful) by weeds on Monday July 21 2014, @07:40PM
I dumped that other site and jumped on the SN bandwagon pretty early. I was involved in some of the very early discussions, planning, and testing. What I'm trying to say is that I'm on-board with SN, _NEVER_ going back. I also admit to being ignorant of news readers (not sure what advantage they have.) So I have to ask...
Is there anyone who can't, won't or doesn't want their Soylent News on a browser: on a desktop, on a laptop, on a notebook, or on a phone? Does this help us get to a wider audience? Does it improve interaction? Does it promote activity in the community? In the end, will it cause more articles and comments to be posted?
Get money out of politics! [mayday.us]
(Score: 3, Interesting) by Nerdfest on Monday July 21 2014, @07:51PM
I'm interested in SN via newsreader. It's just an easier way to get a *really* good interface without a complete site rewrite. Because it's a standard protocol, people can actually choose their interface as well. It works on all device screen sizes without the server having to deal with it.
(Score: -1, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Monday July 21 2014, @08:25PM
Can I shove my huge, throbbing cock in your tight pucker hole?
(Score: 4, Insightful) by tynin on Monday July 21 2014, @08:32PM
Does this help us get to a wider audience? Does it improve interaction? Does it promote activity in the community? In the end, will it cause more articles and comments to be posted?
Consider it the minimal interface option. Many people do not have a need for so much of the eye candy, and find the functionality of a minimal interface to suit them better. So if it gets made, (and I would love to use it!!!) I hope it isn't... lost behind some unfrequented page.
My suggestion to the dev team:
I think you should have something on the main page that links to each of the protocols that can be used to access this site. For example, there is nothing on the front page telling me I can access the site via .onion, non-DNS specific access, rss, nntp, etc. I think letting new (and old) readers who are also technologist know they have options for accessing the site, it might just drive more traffic to your door.
(Score: 3, Insightful) by frojack on Monday July 21 2014, @08:57PM
This!
But Still don't see me using it due the the arcane nature of news readers being less useful than a simple browser.
If I want simple I just grab the RSS feed, on my phone.
(I still have a news reader installed, but I might look at it maybe once a month).
So few people use NNTP anymore, its becoming the new gopher.
No, you are mistaken. I've always had this sig.
(Score: 1) by Arik on Monday July 21 2014, @10:24PM
That said, I am not at all certain the actual usage would justify the time and effort this would take. It sounds like a really cool idea with a lot of potential, but those do not always pan out in the end.
If laughter is the best medicine, who are the best doctors?
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday July 22 2014, @08:40AM
Another advantage of NNTP is peering: If you allow peering, then others can put up their own NNTP servers for Soylent, and thus take off some load from the main server. Probably all the newsgroups should be set to moderated, though, so that any posts have to go through Soylens's servers.
(Score: 3, Interesting) by Aiwendil on Tuesday July 22 2014, @09:09AM
Quite frankly it will increase the attention to information.
You really should give usenet a try - and with that I mean give it a serious try over at least a couple of weeks of daily use (it has a learning curve, and an adjustment curve).
But as I see it the main advantages are that everything will be customizable. For instance I detest interactivity on sites and I belive in having a separation between video and text (completly different styles of how one absorbs such information).
But just to take a few things that are advantages with newsreaders:
* choice of visual representation - some prefer text, some wants stroboscopes and air raid alarms.
* choice of interaction - some want a clickfest, some consider every time one has to reach for a mouse to be a failure (having a single keypress to jump to next thread, or to expand the current thread, or to collapse the current subthread, or to jump back or to the next message/parent/child is _very_ nice, and takes a lot less effort than having to reach for the mouse, scroll the correct button on screen, click the button and then wait)
** Another thing with this is that most newsreaders has a faily complete keyboard control so you often have your hands on the keyboard so there is less of a "break" in the flow of things when jumping between posting and reading.
* sorting of messages - most newsreaders support at least half a dozen different ways of sorting messages, and it isn't that uncommon to add personalized sorting
* highlighting - many newsreaders allow you to set highlights (for instance on topic or on poster [very handy when you just glance the topics of the discussion])
* killfiles/spamfilters - you can normally completly supress (to varying degree) annoying persons (want an AC-filter, perfect, just add its ID to the killfile and it's gone), it also will allow you to get rid of uninteresting things (video, presidential election, $sport-event, assange [and still get the information about wikileaks])
* portability - wouldn't be surprised if there are newsreaders on more platforms that there are browsers
* printability - text prints very nicely.
* screenreaders - since it is a pure text medium it allows for more screenreaders to be deployed.
* braille - works just fine on braille-terminals
* speed - since you are working with a local copy reading has very few delays (causes fewer mental breaks)
* bulk - makes it easier to follow multiple newssources
* search - as long as you have your local copy the only thing that limits your search-options are the tools you have at hand (or can write).
To sum it up: newsreaders are made for the sole purpose of interactive with vast amounts of information with as little interference/annoyance as possible.
(The gain for this site however would be prettier formatting of text, better quoting of messages, and probably more natural interaction for the [even] more information-oriented crowd - so I expect the quality of articles to increase)