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Sorry Amazon: Philadelphia bans cashless stores
This week, Philadelphia's mayor signed a bill that would ban cashless retail stores, according to The Morning Call. The move makes Philadelphia the first major city to require that brick-and-mortar retail stores accept cash. Besides Philadelphia, Massachusetts has required that retailers accept cash since 1978, according to CBS.
The law takes effect July 1, and it will not apply to stores like Costco that require a membership, nor will it apply to parking garages or lots, or to hotels or rental car companies that require a credit or debit card as security for future charges, according to the Wall Street Journal. Retailers caught refusing cash can be fined up to $2,000.
Amazon, whose new Amazon Go stores are cashless and queue-less, reportedly pushed back against the new law, asking for an exemption. According to the WSJ, Philadelphia lawmakers said that Amazon could work around the law under the exemption for stores that require a membership to shop there, but Amazon told the city that a Prime membership is not required to shop at Amazon Go stores, so its options are limited.
(Score: 5, Informative) by PiMuNu on Tuesday March 12 2019, @09:32AM (25 children)
Let me give the counterpoint: not everyone can get a debit or credit card. So by allowing cashless shops, you are ingraining poverty and crime.
Let's look a little deeper at the way things are going. In 20 years time, the corporate overlords will know everything about you (via facebook et alia). They will know all about who you hang out with, they will know all about what you do. Multivariate analysis software ("AI" in the vernacular) will be mining all of this data and using it to decide whether or not to give you a credit card. If you have, at some point in the past, known someone who has a criminal record; or has defaulted on a debt; or has been a recipient of social security; or you live at an address where people have this; or in a district where many people have this: your credit will be more expensive; you may not be eligible for financial services such as banking, or they may be more expensive. This is *already* happening.
By requiring that people have access to banking facilities in order to buy basic necessities such as food, you are forcing people to the black market; crime, prostitution, etc; just to get food.
Nb: in the 21st century, fascism will not be characterised by Hitler and Stalin, but rather a more insidious sort of corporate fascism where "my favourite minority" are classified as persona non grata by the system; disallowed credit and banking facilities; forced into poverty and crime.
(Score: 2, Troll) by isostatic on Tuesday March 12 2019, @10:21AM (7 children)
by allowing cashless shops
You're not allowing cashless shops. You're letting individual free people decide the terms they want to do business with.
The default is that everything is allowed unless it's not.
You simply want to ban cashless shops. This means you want to ban people from making their own free choices of who do do business with. It's very authoritarian.
(Score: 5, Insightful) by Pino P on Tuesday March 12 2019, @01:34PM
Does "letting individual free people decide", say, not to serve black people make good policy sense? Sometimes there is another store nearby for black people to shop at instead, but sometimes there isn't.
Does "letting individual free people decide", say, not to serve people rejected by local banks make good policy sense? Sometimes there is another store nearby for people rejected by local banks to shop at instead, but sometimes there isn't.
(Score: 3, Insightful) by DannyB on Tuesday March 12 2019, @02:56PM (4 children)
Requiring shops to accept cash does not forbid individual free people from deciding who they want to do business with and how they want to pay.
If you want to shop at X and pay with cashless, then great! Do so!
Simply requiring X to also accept cash does not inhibit your choices.
The government has an interest in this. If cash cannot be spent anywhere, then it becomes useless.
Why is it that when I hold a stick, everyone begins to look like a pinata?
(Score: 3, Insightful) by isostatic on Tuesday March 12 2019, @10:37PM (3 children)
Simply requiring X to also accept cash does not inhibit your choices.
Yes it does, I - a shop owner - have to accept a form of payment I don't want to.
(Score: 3, Insightful) by fido_dogstoyevsky on Wednesday March 13 2019, @05:59AM (1 child)
Just like you - a shop owner - have to accept as a customer someone whose eye colour you don't like.
Legal tender is legal tender. You are also permitted to accept goods or services as barter provided you declare it as income.
It's NOT a conspiracy... it's a plot.
(Score: 3, Informative) by isostatic on Wednesday March 13 2019, @08:45AM
Legal tender is legal tender
That only applies for paying a debt. A resturant where you eat a meal then are presented with a bill is a debt and you are legally allowed to pay by cash
Buying a car in cash isn't paying a debt, the seller has no obligation to take your cash.
(Score: 2) by DannyB on Wednesday March 13 2019, @02:45PM
I was not referring to shop owners, but to the shoppers who shop there. Sorry if I was unclear.
Shoppers are not inhibited from paying cashless.
Why is it that when I hold a stick, everyone begins to look like a pinata?
(Score: 2) by fido_dogstoyevsky on Wednesday March 13 2019, @05:47AM
Which is fine unless the shop is an effective monopoly. Then the shop is making itself (and the goods and services it monopolises) unavailable to a lot of people.
It's NOT a conspiracy... it's a plot.
(Score: 3, Interesting) by ledow on Tuesday March 12 2019, @11:08AM (12 children)
Yes they can.
There are pre-pay credit or debit cards, the same way there are bank accounts for those with zero credit (they don't offer some facilities, but even they usually offer debit cards). Scrap cash and all you have to do is provide a card to anyone who asks... which isn't at all difficult, and a damn sight cheaper than printing money.
There's no reason for any corporation to know anything about me from my bank account. They don't know it now, they won't know it in the future. They know the card number I choose to give them, that's all. And I have multiple cards. Additionally, if everything was card, you can get cards nowadays that have different, single-use numbers for each transaction. Pay-by-tap does something very similar.
The rest of your concern is defeated not by using cash, but by enforcing data protection. Credit is voluntary. Banks don't have to give it to you and you may need to supply them with information to get it. Credit is also *optional*. Cash isn't credit any more than a debit card is. We're not talking credit at all, in any way, shape or form. Which is why those people who only get "basic" bank accounts don't get credit cards. They get debit cards. That are usable online and in shops just the same. He says, with two debit cards in his pocket and not a credit card to his name.
What you're trying to say is "Cash is the only way to do this". It's not. It is, however, the single-most expensive thing to produce out of all the monetary methods, and an expensive to handle system, and unauditable.
By forcing people to have access to banking facilities in order to by food, we are *stopping them* from having to resort to the black market. Specifically, those who are already "black-market" (e.g. cash-in-hand prostitutes) will remain exactly how they are, while everyone else will have to put their purchases through a card that *anyone* can get and only those cards will be accepted in shops.
It also makes crime a lot harder to pay off. Mugging is now pointless, because get no cash and you can't even sell the phone on.
It's really a poor argument to say that changing payment methods is somehow fascism. Everyone gets a card because everyone needs a card. But now you can't hide black-market transactions, and resort to barter is the only method that would work. And the goods you barter with? They had to come from a non-cash transaction or other barter.
All you're doing is eliminating an anonymous layer that's used to mask origins of transactions. And in the UK card use overtook cash use this year.
(Score: 5, Insightful) by Pino P on Tuesday March 12 2019, @01:43PM
Prepaid Visa cards in grocery stores charge a 10 percent surcharge to load them with cash. In addition, the merchant must pay a substantial monthly fee plus 30 cents per transaction plus 3 percent of the total.
How old does the account holder have to be, and how much of a monthly fee does the bank charge the account holder for both sending and receiving money? How practical would it be for, say, a 14-year-old to accept credit cards for mowing lawns or babysitting?
At no charge?
First we'd have to find a way to make prostitutes no longer black-market.
"Your card and PIN or your life"
But a mugger can prevent the victim from calling the police now that the victim has lost possession of his or her cell phone and pay phone operators have removed the pay phones on which the victim would have once called 911.
(Score: 2) by PiMuNu on Tuesday March 12 2019, @04:25PM (10 children)
> There are pre-pay credit or debit cards
Just to add to the other poster, I believe In the US it is common to pay for a current account. If you are not from US you may not be aware of this.
(Score: 2) by DannyB on Tuesday March 12 2019, @06:19PM (9 children)
I (actually we my family) use credit cards for everything we possibly can. We do not pay for cards. They pay us. Those cards earn lots of rewards. Disney Dollars. Airline points / miles. Cruise ship rewards. Amazon rewards dollars. Or Target card getting 5% off right at the register. Etc. etc.
Not only do we not pay for cards, we have an endless stream of free high limit credit card offers coming our way constantly. We destroy them and toss them out.
BUT . . . we NEVER borrow money on credit cards. We never pay interest. And obviously, never any late fees. We don't use a card unless we are prepared to write a check for it right now.
We even pay our utility bills on credit cards.
Now where does all that free money come from? Oh, from the people who pay cash to buy the same items we buy.
It's not nice. But it's how the system works.
Why is it that when I hold a stick, everyone begins to look like a pinata?
(Score: 2) by Pav on Wednesday March 13 2019, @02:53AM (4 children)
The credit card companies are just betting that enough responsible people have a disaster that will pull them into debt. Disallowed by health insurance, and the bill = savings + substantial debt? Economic disaster sees you unemployed for an inconveniently long time, and it's dig into credit or deny your kids crucial education/opportunity? It's a safe bet they'll take enough economic scalps of so-called "responsible" borrowers, and has made trillions on trillions.
(Score: 2) by DannyB on Wednesday March 13 2019, @02:55PM (3 children)
I wouldn't call myself a "responsible borrower" using credit cards, because I don't use them for debt.
If I needed to borrow, odds are good my banker would give me a commercial loan on far better terms than a credit card.
Why is it that when I hold a stick, everyone begins to look like a pinata?
(Score: 2) by Pav on Friday March 15 2019, @01:02AM (2 children)
Why would your banker give you a commercial loan if conditions had become so dire that you'd need to consider such borrowing in the first place? This is exactly the blindness/denial they count on.
(Score: 2) by DannyB on Friday March 15 2019, @02:08PM (1 child)
I wouldn't be seeking a loan unless I expected I could repay it.
I suppose in desperation, it is hard to know what I would do. Would I be driven to borrow money that I knew I could/would never repay? Who knows.
Why is it that when I hold a stick, everyone begins to look like a pinata?
(Score: 3, Interesting) by Pav on Saturday March 16 2019, @09:13AM
Simple recipe - some lead a blessed life and are losses for the banks, but a large portion face a financial challenge beyond their means at some point in their lives - and if the credit card is in your pocket the hook is set. Some will sacrifice their health, permanently downgrade their financial wellbeing etc... rather than take a chance by going into debt, but many gamble that they can find money in the medium term if they keep their health, earning capacity etc... For the banks, ideally you won't go bankrupt... but are far enough in debt that a large chunk of your disposable income will be theirs for a significant period.
This is harming us on a society-wide scale - wealth captures more wealth. We don't tax the wealthy like we used to, so the books are no longer balanced. Society now borrows the untaxed wealth and pays interest on it... either the government borrows (and prints), or else the private sector borrows instead. The alternative is societies getting poorer, and plenty of countries without borrowing capacity are in that camp. Already in most western countries the middle class have exhausted their borrowing capacity so they're falling into the lower class. China is even starting to get there.
No wonder these bankers want a credit card in every pocket... They need to set those hooks before rome burns.
(Score: 2) by Pino P on Wednesday March 13 2019, @03:51PM (3 children)
How do you pay the balance on the credit cards? I assume from a checking account. But that can become expensive if all banks with ATMs in your area charge a monthly "account maintenance fee" for having a checking account. You might try working around a local bank's fees by switching to an online-only bank. But without an ATM or branch in your area, depositing cash or checks received in the mail from on your birthday and Christmas becomes impractical. So is depositing your paycheck if your employer is a small business that does not qualify for payroll direct deposit. You might try unloading your cash at the few remaining cash-only businesses and using the bank's app to deposit checks. But the bank's app doesn't run on a desktop or laptop computer with a webcam or flatbed scanner. So in order to run the bank's app, you have to upgrade from a land line or flip phone to an iPhone or Android phone, and your carrier might try to force you onto a more expensive cellular plan just for having a smartphone.
Fees, fees, fees.
How did you get the first of these credit cards? Someone with no credit history at all, positive or negative, is likely to end up declined. Or did you take out a student loan and repay that in order to qualify?
I too pay my phone bill and my cable bill with a Chase Visa card. But some utilities accept only paper checks, or only ACH debit from a checking acount, which doesn't give you any rewards, or give a $5 per month discount on the bill for using ACH debit instead of credit.
(Score: 2) by DannyB on Wednesday March 13 2019, @04:23PM (2 children)
> How do you pay the balance on the credit cards?
Checking account.
> that can become expensive if all banks with ATMs in your area charge a monthly "account maintenance fee" for having a checking account.
Free checking with balance continuously over $1000 or some number I don't know anymore.
> You might try working around a local bank's fees by switching to an online-only bank.
Never really thought of that. Interesting. Once you do the same thing for decades, you don't think of doing something different unless some big reason hits you over the head.
I do use an ATM occasionally to get cash. But I get a large amount at one time to avoid multiple or frequent trips. And, of course, I rarely spend cash.
> How did you get the first of these credit cards?
So long ago, difficult to remember. We started with ordinary consumer credit cards. (ones with annual fees) Acted responsibly with them. Eventually got better and more and better CC offers.
> I too pay my phone bill and my cable bill with a Chase Visa card.
Same here. Several Chase Visa, but one rarely used BoA Visa for a cruse line. Those are our favorites for specific rewards. Oh, and Target for always instant 5% off. Target eventually significantly raised my limit.
Same about phone and cable. But also electricity and gas -- hopefully they won't one day stop accepting CC autopay. If they do, we'll reconsider whatever is the best option -- even using debit card if its in our best interest.
Here is what I think is the catch: In order to accept debit cards, with, say Visa, they agree to also accept all Visa cards, including these "rewards" cards. And they are not allowed to charge differently for people who pay "cash". This is an issue that stores like Walmart would like to change. If you pay "cash" you pay less. That way the cash customers aren't subsidizing the rewards card customers. Sadfully.
I think getting so many continuous offers of rewards cards is a combination of: Time. History of prompt payment. Spending a lot on cards. (Including once even buying a used car on a Southwest airlines card -- chase visa -- which was 1 and a half free flights to Disney World) And possibly my income level. But I think mostly our credit history. Those cards would keep raising our credit limit to insane levels. What makes them think I would ever spend that much money when they KNOW that we don't have that much.
Raising your credit limit above your means to repay might be one of their tricks. Maybe people think credit is some kind of free money.
Why is it that when I hold a stick, everyone begins to look like a pinata?
(Score: 2) by Pino P on Wednesday March 13 2019, @05:13PM (1 child)
Tying up $1,000 or more in an account that earns 0% APY could prove difficult for people struggling to make ends meet, even if they have been fortunate not to fall into the payday loan cycle of hurting.
Losing money forever to annual fees could prove difficult for people struggling to make ends meet.
Since when? I've seen businesses that are cash or debit only because they're on Interlink and Cirrus, the ATM debit networks, not Visa or MasterCard, the credit networks operated by the same companies.
(Score: 2) by DannyB on Wednesday March 13 2019, @05:29PM
Yes I've realized the $1,000 tied up for 0%, but I think I simply don't 'perceive' it that way. I also realize that is not an option for many people. And I was one of them decades ago.
If CCs with annual fees are too expensive, then I would probably, just thinking out loud, stick to cash, checks and a debit card.
But . . . one thing we have learned about debit cards! Have two of them. We have our 'real' checking account, and NEVER use its debit card except at an ATM. Then we have our 'online' debit card (that name is historical before we had so many CCs). If we do use somthing that needs a debit card and won't take credit card we use the 'online' debit card. This means we maintain two checking accounts. I think that 'online' one is set up with a checking account fee, because we only keep a couple hundred dollars in it unless we know we need to put more in it for an upcoming debit-card-only purchase. I don't know how it is set up, because I don't take care of the bills. I earn it, she spends it. :-) But seriously she takes care of all that and I don't worry about it.
WHY have a special debit card? Because the 'online' one is the one that might get 'hacked' or have money stolen out of it. When this happens, your account might be frozen for ten days. But you do get your money back. We had this happen. But we were okay because we had credit cards we could buy groceries and fuel with.
It was speculation about Visa imposing requirements to accept credit cards. I'm happy to be proved wrong and correctly informed.
Why is it that when I hold a stick, everyone begins to look like a pinata?
(Score: 2) by Phoenix666 on Tuesday March 12 2019, @11:10AM (1 child)
It's no problem. The poor can always shoplift instead.
I have been musing lately about a return to barter, myself. "Take your 11% sales tax now, Mr. Mayor Muthafucka." "If you want 30% of my Cheerios, you can come down here and collect it yourself, Pelosi. Oops, sorry, pissed in them first..."
Washington DC delenda est.
(Score: 2) by DannyB on Tuesday March 12 2019, @06:13PM
For small transactions, you can not only barter, but you can pay with green backs (aka "cash").
It is convenient. Untraceable. The receiver may or may not report it as income, but that is not your business.
I've seen instances of small businesses where you could come in, buy something, pay cash. The owner doesn't ring it up, you walk out of the store. He pockets the cash. The transaction was off the books. Especially if it is a food place, this small reduction of inventory is also untraceable.
Why is it that when I hold a stick, everyone begins to look like a pinata?
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday March 12 2019, @12:20PM (1 child)
Depends on your clientele. It's like going to Chanele and then wanting to pay cash-only for $2000 worth of perfume. Sorry, but some places don't want cash. Like Amazon. Amazon's clients are not cash heavy in the first place.
I see what you did there... giant hyperbole. And which food store doesn't accept cash?? And if you believe that cashless Amazon stores would not allow cash when there is demand, you're probably a little crazy. But they would have some place where you buy credit for Amazon and then you buy whatever againt that credit.
Nah, you already have Mr. Orange there with his other favorite minorities. 800k without pay for 2 months because he saw something on Fox News. Now how's that for forcing people to food banks?? People that actually work? But no, you go after stores experimenting with cashless.... oh noes!!!!
(Score: 3, Touché) by PiMuNu on Tuesday March 12 2019, @04:22PM
> And which food store doesn't accept cash??
In 10 years time (if we allow it) all major supermarkets.
> And if you believe that cashless Amazon stores would not allow cash when there is demand, you're probably a little crazy.
Who wants to serve bums, prostitutes and drug addicts? Not much demand there. Except you just created a positive feedback loop and ingrained poverty.