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Permafrost in some areas of the Canadian Arctic is thawing so fast that it's gulping up the equipment left there to study it.
"The ground thaws and swallows it," said Merritt Turetsky, a University of Guelph biologist whose new research warns the rapid thaw could dramatically increase the amounts of greenhouse gases released from ancient plants and animals frozen within the tundra.
"We've put cameras in the ground, we've put temperature equipment in the ground, and it gets flooded. It often happens so fast we can't get out there and rescue it.
"We've lost dozens of field sites. We were collecting data on a forest and all of a sudden it's a lake."
Turetsky's research, published this week in the journal Nature, looks at the rate of permafrost thaw across the Arctic and what its impact could be on attempts to limit greenhouse gas emissions that cause climate change.
(Score: 3, Funny) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday May 05 2019, @01:10AM
Permafrost credits... buy them now before the market takes off!
(Score: 2, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday May 05 2019, @01:15AM (27 children)
They clearly wrote down the wrong coordinates in their logbook and "returned" to the wrong location, because a forest doesn't turn into a lake overnight even in the most feverish AGW fantasy. Their university should make them pay for the lost equipment.
(Score: 0, Informative) by Runaway1956 on Sunday May 05 2019, @02:34AM (16 children)
The bullshit is worse than that. No forest grows on permafrost.
Abortion is the number one killed of children in the United States.
(Score: 3, Insightful) by krishnoid on Sunday May 05 2019, @02:54AM
One thing's for sure. "Perma"frost needs a new name.
(Score: 2, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday May 05 2019, @03:32AM (1 child)
Oh It does, just depends on your definition of forest. Alaska has a lot of "forest" made up of trees that are maybe 30 feet at their highest but mostly spindly diseased looking 20ft twigs. Inland has some bigger trees, But it also gets to 80+ in the summer.
(Score: 5, Interesting) by Runaway1956 on Sunday May 05 2019, @04:41AM
I suppose there is a map somewhere on the internet, showing how the tree line starts out very high at the equator. As you go north or south, the tree line comes down toward sea level. At some point, the tree line reaches sea level, and there are no more trees, at all. With global warming, that sea level tree line will move north and south, allowing seeds to germinate, and seedlings to push roots into unfrozen soil. Closer to the equator, the elevation of the tree line will go up as well. The elevation probably won't move up as fast as it will move north and south, but it will surely go up. The increase in carbon dioxide will probably help the tree line to move upward, but there has to be a limit to that.
Unless we geoengineer a tree that will germinate on ice, there will never be a forest sprouting on permafrost.
Adak Island, in the Aleutian Islands has a little bitty "National Forest" that was planted around WW2 time. Can't remember for sure, I guess there were like 30 trees in it. When I stood in the middle of that forest in 1976, there were like two or three trees taller than I was. My view of the landscape around me was not obstructed, that's for certain. Temperatures on Adak varied little from summer to winter - and that wasn't even permafrost.
More recent photos here suggest that tallest tree might be 9 feet high now - https://maps.roadtrippers.com/stories/the-sad-tale-of-americas-smallest-national-forest [roadtrippers.com] Of course, the angle of the camera shot may contribute to that appearance.
Climate on Adak here: https://www.usclimatedata.com/climate/adak/alaska/united-states/usak0001 [usclimatedata.com] There aren't a lot of arctic blasts bringing the temperature down to -40 and lower.
Abortion is the number one killed of children in the United States.
(Score: 5, Informative) by PinkyGigglebrain on Sunday May 05 2019, @04:27AM (9 children)
Wrong on that one Runaway. The term permafrost refers to the layer of soil that never thaws out. That layer is not always on the surface, sometime it can be surprisingly deep. All that has to be true is that the layer of soil never gets warm enough to thaw. So the forest has it's roots in the top layer of soil that is not permanently frozen, the roots don't go into the layer that is. A layer that is now melting thanks to warmer temperatures.
Your probably thinking of the Arctic Tundra, with no trees just sparse grass and the permafrost starts only inches below the surface even in summer
"Beware those who would deny you Knowledge, For in their hearts they dream themselves your Master."
(Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Sunday May 05 2019, @04:47AM (8 children)
You are probably right on that. I guess there is no law that says the permafrost has to be at the surface. But, back to these researchers - if they set up instruments on solid frozen ground, only to come back a couple months later to find a marsh, they can't be the sharpest tools in the shed. That frozen to marshy thing probably happens every year, and has repeated itself for hundreds, if not thousands of years.
Abortion is the number one killed of children in the United States.
(Score: 4, Informative) by Whoever on Sunday May 05 2019, @05:31AM (7 children)
You can't be bothered to read the article, can you? Instead, you would prefer to substitute your ignorance for actual facts. Let me give you a little help:
See that? "days or weeks". This is a change from an annual cycle.
What level of arrogance does it take to substitute your own ignorance for actual reporting?
(Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Sunday May 05 2019, @05:52AM (5 children)
Maybe it's the word "forest". Some scrub pine and spruce with roots spread out through the top 1 foot of surface soil, just doesn't sound like "forest" to me. I looked at the Denali link posted above. I don't see a lot of "trees" in that wash on the hillside. I see what look like saplings. I gave a link to Adak National forest. 33 trees, after 50+ years, none of them large enough to harvest for a 2x4.
About that supposed arrogance: Do you, or do you not, attempt to reconcile reporting with your knowledge and experience? And, have you never once found proof that a "reporter" was full of crap? Or, is there some kind of magic about a reporter who reports stuff in the name of science? Even given some magic associated with the word science, have you never, ever, even once, found a study in which the researcher did something stupid?
What we know from the story is, some researchers lost some equipment. Something they didn't expect happened, and they lost equipment. What I don't see is corroboration from the natives that ten, or a hundred, or thousands of square miles of permafrost just collapsed in the last year or ten.
Abortion is the number one killed of children in the United States.
(Score: 3, Informative) by c0lo on Sunday May 05 2019, @09:17AM (4 children)
Drunken trees - Siberia - 2007 [nasa.gov]
A crater formed in Siberia's permafrost is growing at an alarming rate - 2017 [bbc.com] - has photos, the trees aren't that tundra-small as you imply.
Drunken forest - Alaska 2018 [vice.com] In parts of Alaska, the ground is sinking so much that trees are growing almost horizontally. It's an area scientists refer to as a "drunken forest."
Ummm... do you? 'Cause it seems that you are so full of... answers that you didn't do the most basic google query [google.com]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoFiw2jMy-0
(Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Sunday May 05 2019, @09:35AM (3 children)
So, residents of Russia's Siberia, or residents of the US' Alaska can verify that a thousand square miles of Canadian permafrost has thawed out, overnight. Got it.
Abortion is the number one killed of children in the United States.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday May 05 2019, @09:42AM
Shows that's not impossible as you suggest.
(Score: 2) by FatPhil on Monday May 06 2019, @10:17AM (1 child)
Great minds discuss ideas; average minds discuss events; small minds discuss people; the smallest discuss themselves
(Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Monday May 06 2019, @10:36AM
Please note, FatPhil, I don't recall saying that it couldn't happen, or didn't happen - I'm QUESTIONING exactly what happened. I have a suspicion that it didn't just suddenly happen overnight.
Note the title of this thread: Idiot researchers. Then ask all the questions a sceptical reader might ask. Were there no signs at all that the area might be subsiding? How experienced were these researchers in the north? Was this actually "permafrost", or might it have been thermokarst? Note that thermokarst is a kind of permafrost, which is already undergoing a thawing cycle. And, what do the locals have to say about it?
Do you suggest that I should read every paper, and believe what it says? Thanks, but no thanks. There have been articles submitted on this site, which community consensus rejects out of hand. Examples? Any environmental study paid for by any of the players in Big Oil.
Just let it go, man. I'm skeptical that knowledgable researchers, experienced in far-north research lost tons of equipment just overnight. It sounds like someone screwed up, and threw excuses into the echo chamber of man-made global climate change.
Abortion is the number one killed of children in the United States.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday May 05 2019, @04:21PM
We've known for awhile that beavers ("Nature's ecologist") have been trying to melt the permafrost to form lakes, etc (homes for themselves and their children):
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/12/20/climate/arctic-beavers-alaska.html [nytimes.com]
(Score: 2) by dry on Sunday May 05 2019, @06:01AM
Hey, when drunk... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drunken_trees [wikipedia.org]
(Score: 2) by FatPhil on Sunday May 05 2019, @11:39AM
Great minds discuss ideas; average minds discuss events; small minds discuss people; the smallest discuss themselves
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday May 11 2019, @10:19AM
Moron, you've never heard of taiga and are too stupid to ddg before airing your stupidity.
Even my dumbass 13yo self had played MTG and knew that Taiga land is rare, special, $25/card stuff.
IRL it's also kinda cool. But you know, more real than dragons.
"No forest grows on permafrost" - I just, I don't even... it's... do you... but... yeah I'm at a loss. It's like someone with myopia telling you there's nothing closer to Earth than the Sun. Um... just because all you can make out is... but... that's... um.
(Score: 5, Insightful) by Whoever on Sunday May 05 2019, @02:52AM (6 children)
Hurr Durr, AGW isn't happening, so the researchers must be wrong.
"This doesn't conform to my worldview, so obviously, the people who spend their time studying the subject must be wrong and my ignorance trumps it".
(Score: 1, Touché) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday May 05 2019, @03:55AM (5 children)
Let me know of all the grants available to the scientists who go against your narrative. It’s ok, I’ll wait.
(Score: 2, Disagree) by Pav on Sunday May 05 2019, @11:50AM (4 children)
If the Koch brothers can pay off enough politicians to get tar sands oil piped through several drinking water catchment headwaters down to Texas, and help forment Venzuelan unrest, then climate change is a snap. (The Kochs Texas refinery can only refine the absolute worst/dirtiest/cheapest-per-barrel oil... ie. Venezuelan oil OR tar sands oil). BTW, over $100,000000 has already been given by the Kochs to climate change denialists.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday May 05 2019, @03:58PM
Over $100,000000,000.62 has been given to climate change hysterics. That is bigger than your number.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday May 06 2019, @09:07PM (2 children)
Your information on the refineries the Koch's control is incorrect. Not sure where you heard that. It is an interesting narrative it supports, but the supporting statements are not facts. The Texas refinery owned by the Kochs is more geared towards running light crude, like the stuff traditionally from west Texas. Their Minnesota refinery, on the other hand, is built for heavy Canadian crude, because you know Minnesota is practically like South Canada. http://abarrelfull.wikidot.com/saint-paul-refinery [wikidot.com] http://abarrelfull.wikidot.com/flint-hills-corpus-christi-refinery [wikidot.com]
(Score: 2) by Pav on Thursday May 09 2019, @10:23AM
Ummm... no... There's even a link to Keystone XL (the pipline from Canada to Texas) on the Corpus Cristi refinery web page.
(Score: 2) by Pav on Thursday May 09 2019, @10:55AM
...and they also say 20% of the refined oil comes from a nearby shale oil field... heavy stuff.
(Score: 3, Informative) by c0lo on Sunday May 05 2019, @04:03AM
Here you have an entire hillside going down due to soil liquefaction [youtube.com], in Denali National Park [wikipedia.org]
The link is provided from the very TFA on Nature.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoFiw2jMy-0
(Score: 1, Touché) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday May 05 2019, @05:24AM
Apparently Trump with his global warming denial can turn forests into oceans in record time. That's probably the subtext here. Need another million dollar grant to investigate.
(Score: 2) by Nobuddy on Monday May 06 2019, @01:04PM
Jane, you ignorant slut.
I live in Alaska. These regions are melting, and they do form lakes at times when they melt. It is remarkable because they are permafrost- they never melt. But they are now. The way houses are being built has changed. You used to be able to scrape off the topsoil, lay gravel on the permafrost, and build. Nice solid foundation. Those houses are now sinking, though they have stood strong and level for decades and in some cases a century.
Now you have to dig down below the permafrost, pour concrete foundation walls there, and fill back up with gravel till its level. Because the climate has changed drastically.
(Score: 1, Touché) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday May 05 2019, @01:24AM (1 child)
If that much equipment was lost it makes me think they aren't really that smart. Was that the whole point?
(Score: 2, Touché) by RS3 on Sunday May 05 2019, @02:06AM
They wanted new stuff, had to justify the purchase.
(Score: -1, Offtopic) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday May 05 2019, @02:07AM
that what happened.
yeah.
that's the ticket.
(Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday May 05 2019, @02:54AM (1 child)
I guess everyone here knows about putting cameras on permafrost.
This site is reaching peak idiocy.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday May 05 2019, @03:30AM
Some recent posts here reads like the oinion, except not funny.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday May 05 2019, @03:40AM (1 child)
So I won't doubt their findings although I have not seen similar things in the parts of Alaska I frequent, but I want to see pictures of flooded forests in articles that claim forests are flooding. When your credibility is already doubted, it's not wise to exaggerate.
(Score: 1, Touché) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday May 05 2019, @04:11AM
Queue "that's just one area known for flooding!"
(Score: 0, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday May 05 2019, @05:57AM (6 children)
These people can't predict shit. The premise of this story just proves that most people are morons who think people who mispredicted the future should be listened to.
(Score: 0, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday May 05 2019, @06:09AM (2 children)
I just love how ignoramuses like you spout off like you're the 2nd coming of Einstein.
Someone made a joke about Poettering being a lurker here, your post makes me think there might be something to that.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday May 05 2019, @06:32AM (1 child)
I just love how you show your retardation by treating Einstein as a saint.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday May 05 2019, @07:22AM
I have no idea who the hell you are but I am pretty confident in saying that Einstein did more for the world than you ever will.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday May 05 2019, @03:31PM (2 children)
How many times are you going to post top-level comments in response to this article?
(Score: 1, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday May 05 2019, @03:55PM (1 child)
I'm the one who posted that, and didn't post any others. Sorry, more than one person exists who is skeptical of the conclusions of researchers whose understanding of their chosen topic is so poor they can't even keep track of their equipment.
This story reminds me of that "doomsday vault" that flooded when the ice they built it inside of melted. It was meant to preserve seeds from the dangers of climate change for thousands of years but they didn't anticipate a bit of melting ice.
https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2017/may/19/arctic-stronghold-of-worlds-seeds-flooded-after-permafrost-melts [theguardian.com]
You can see when it comes time to apply their theories about the climate to the real world they always fail epically. Just like the "dirty snowball" comet hypothesis. It is all fun and games until you need to use the theory to guess how hard the surface will be to land your probe on it, then the probe bounces off because it was rock, not ice.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday May 05 2019, @04:05PM
Or all these boats that get stuck in the ice because they listened to false predictions of "ice free":
https://dailycaller.com/2016/07/20/global-warming-expedition-stopped-in-its-tracks-by-arctic-sea-ice/ [dailycaller.com]
I can't think of a single useful prediction made by the entire field, only bad ones that lead to problems. But there must be at least a few made, even if on accident.
(Score: 2) by bradley13 on Sunday May 05 2019, @12:11PM (2 children)
The earth is warming. Has been for a couple hundred years. Still isn't as warm as, for example, during the Roman Warm Period. Somehow, the earth survived, in fact, previous warm periods were observably good things both for nature and for civilization.
Why do people have this fixation that the planet must remain static, exactly as it was during their childhood?
Is human activity affecting the climate? Maybe. The evidence of human influence on warming comes from computer models, which make predictions based on assumptions of positive feedback built in to them by their programmers. Since the climate models keep failing to make correct predictions [judithcurry.com], it seems likely that those assumptions of positive feedback are wrong.
Cycles. Warm is better than cold anyway. Melting permafrost & melting glaciers = more productive land for things to grow. Small negative effect: sea levels are rising, wow, an inch or two per decade. In the course of a century, some cities will need to shift slightly inland. Let's celebrate the warmth while we have it, because sooner or later the cycles will bring the next cold period.
Everyone is somebody else's weirdo.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday May 05 2019, @02:14PM
The earth has been warming for 25 thousand years since the last glacial maximum. There are smaller cycles you mention as well but those are relatively minor in comparison.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Last_Glacial_Maximum [wikipedia.org]
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday May 11 2019, @10:15AM
Yo, Bradley, I hear what you're saying, but unfortunately you seem to have been fed bad priors. Please take a gander at this https://xkcd.com/1732/ [xkcd.com] and then at Randall's sources to ascertain their credibility, and then please re-examine your statement. You seem to try to be logical, and I rather hope you're going to adjust your beliefs in the face of new-to-you evidence.
(Score: 3, Funny) by DannyB on Monday May 06 2019, @02:35PM
Henceforth permafrost loss will now be measured in dollar value of equipment lost measuring permafrost loss.
Young people won't believe you if you say you're older than Google. (born before 1998-09-03)