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https://www.greenbuildingadvisor.com/article/bans-on-plastic-bags-can-backfire
Governments are increasingly banning the use of plastic products, such as carryout bags, straws, utensils, and microbeads. The goal is to reduce the amount of plastic going into landfills and waterways. And the logic is that banning something should make it less abundant.
However, this logic falls short if people actually reuse those items instead of buying new ones. For example, so-called “single-use” plastic carryout bags can have a multitude of unseen second lives—as trash-bin liners, dog poop bags, and storage receptacles.
A U.K. government study calculated that a shopper would need to reuse a cotton carryout bag 131 times to reduce its global warming potential—its expected total contribution to climate change—below that of plastic carryout bags used once to carry newly purchased goods. To have less impact on the climate than plastic carryout bags also reused as trash bags, consumers would need to use the cotton bag 327 times.
(Score: 0, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday August 07 2019, @01:24AM (8 children)
Anyone with half a brain has been saying this for years. Best of all is the fact that hobos who used to shit in these bags in San Francisco stopped once they became hard to come by, and just opted for shitting in the street.
(Score: 4, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday August 07 2019, @02:13AM (7 children)
Worst example, your anecdote is more suited to pointing out SF's failure to support the homeless population. Removing public restrooms instead of just dealing with the cost of upkeep is what really created the problems. Not allocating money and space for the homeless is a big failure.
Besides, there are still plenty of plastic bags as SF added a fee not a ban. Agenda level bullshit I see in you, lame it is.
(Score: 0, Flamebait) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday August 07 2019, @03:47AM (5 children)
Failure to support the homeless? They are given free reign to homestead anywhere they can fit a tent or box. They shit freely wherever they want without repercussions of any kind. They are given free needles to encourage their drug abuse habits and given free shelter to engage in their drug abuse within mass transit stations. That's class A support.
(Score: -1, Flamebait) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday August 07 2019, @06:07AM
Looks like you got burned by all the SF mods. Just one request to them. Stay in your shithole and don’t move. You already fucked up Austin.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday August 07 2019, @11:16AM (3 children)
You sound jealous. They get all the free stuff, and you have to work hard just to have it taken away from you! Poor poor, you! And you have to shit in a toilet, don't you! And pay for the water bill, too! Oh the agony! The Pain! The selfishness!
(Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday August 07 2019, @12:04PM (2 children)
Jealous? Nope. I love my job and I live in a nice home on a lot of land and money in the bank. Since I'm on a well, I only pay for electricity to pump my water. Now I don't get free needles or a pass from the local constabulary to do anything I want. Then again, I don't abuse drugs and I'm not mentally ill. That brings up a point. Do you have to be crazy or on drugs to want to live in SF?
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday August 07 2019, @04:38PM (1 child)
A well huh? So you're just one of the many people busy emptying out your local acquifer which will probably have catastrophic effects on the local plant life if a drought hits.
Don't sit too high and mighty, and may I suggest you try exploring reality instead of your biased "sf is a liberal hell hole" stupidity? It is just as bad as calling you flyover country.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday August 07 2019, @08:26PM
I'm not worried about "emptying out my local acquifer" [sic]. Here in flyover country we have lots of water. In fact we have so much of it, it falls from the sky all the time. We have no laws against collecting rainwater either. Our local water table has risen over the past two decades instead due to a few companies that no longer pump huge quantities of water for factories. I'm not concerned.
I also never mentioned SF liberalism. It might have been implied from the free needles and failure to police their own laws. Take my opinion with a grain of salt, but I never needed to step over piles of human shit here in the redneck cities nestled within flyover country.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday August 07 2019, @05:52PM
Not allocating money and space for the homeless is a big failure.
Why? What do we get in return? The only money to be spent on the homeless should be to rent a bulldozer and push them and all their crap outside the city limits. Do the same to anybody who complains about it. Problem solved!
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday August 07 2019, @01:27AM
But how am I going to carry all those plastic bags on my bike?
(Score: 5, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday August 07 2019, @01:33AM (28 children)
The problem that is addressed with a plastic ban has nothing to do with the climate. There should be ban because plastic particules are everywhere and the concentration is only going up. I think that it is simply moronic to only consider climate change without considering other kind of pollution...
(Score: 0, Flamebait) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday August 07 2019, @01:40AM (1 child)
More shocking are the scientific studies that show these plastic particles act as hormones that increase the rate of transgenderism.
(Score: 4, Funny) by driverless on Wednesday August 07 2019, @05:19AM
And voting for Trump. I don't have the graph handy, but it's pretty clear when you look at it, in 1861, pre-plastic bags, people voted for some beardy weirdo in a stovepipe hat. In 1933, with cloth bags, they voted for some dude in a wheelchair. It was only in 2016, with the toxic effects of plastic bags scattered throughout the environment, that people voted for Trump.
(Score: 1, Touché) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday August 07 2019, @01:43AM
So true. Banning lead pipes is in the same boat. Those copper pipes require much more energy than the old school lead pipes, and we know energy that comes from coal/gas fired power stations adds to global warming.
(Score: 2, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday August 07 2019, @01:53AM (5 children)
Similar common sense needs to be used for plastic straws. Personally, I don't use straws, but some restaurants give me one before I can say no...
For a different example, in a nursing home environment many of the clients can only drink through a straw. Given how hard it would be to sterilize the inside of a used straw (any material), disposable plastic straws are a pretty good solution. Even autoclaving (for a stainless steel straw) may not remove all pathogens(??) And a metal straw has the potential to be a nasty weapon (accidents & outbursts are common in nursing homes).
I've heard of paper straws (haven't tried any), but again, in the nursing home, straws are often left in a drink cup at bedside and can sit there for hours--I'm going to guess that a paper straw would start to come apart by then.
Going forward, it might make sense to segregate plastic trash and reduce the amount loose in the environment. Now that some recycling markets have dried up (China isn't buying anymore) for all but plastic type 1 & 2 (and with extra effort 5), governments need to think about what to do with all the other types--maybe they need to be melted together so they don't fly around?
(Score: 3, Informative) by EJ on Wednesday August 07 2019, @03:49AM (1 child)
Straws do not need to be made of nearly indestructible plastic. They can be made of biodegradable materials since they only need to last for a few hours of use at most. These are made of plant-based materials, and they do not pollute our oceans.
https://www.amazon.com/Biodegradable-Compostable-Plant-Based-Eco-Friendly-Individually/dp/B078J4N5XF [amazon.com]
(Score: 2) by Phoenix666 on Wednesday August 07 2019, @12:20PM
When I was a kid in the 70's there were paper straws coated with wax.
Washington DC delenda est.
(Score: 5, Insightful) by driverless on Wednesday August 07 2019, @05:21AM (1 child)
Plastic straws are a straw man. But then, paper straws are really the last straw.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday August 07 2019, @08:01AM
The sadness of my life - I never saw a straw that broke the camel back, plastic, paper or for-realz.
(Score: 1, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday August 07 2019, @06:38AM
Decontaminating reusable straws, not impossible, but based on experiences cleaning plastic tubing for homebrewing and wine making, it's a pain, involves chemicals to do the job properly, and then the use of copious amounts of water to rinse away any traces of these chemicals (taint, and some people are sensitive to them)
If you want a laugh, shine a UV torch on one of those drinking containers with either the nipple thing or an integral straw that has been in use for some time and just cleaned in the normal manner and not sterilised (for added amusement, then do the same to a jug water filter..)
As to the potential weapon use of metal straws...I've seen them for sale with tips ground at 45 and 60 degree angles for 'piercing drinks cartons'...this is going to be fun here in the UK, what with the way the law on offensive weapons is worded...
Thank you for making me feel old, I've more early memories of using waxed paper straws than plastic ones..yes, they eventually get soggy, but they also impart a 'taint' to anything drunk through them..though, there might be something to be said for the added nostalgia value there...I've not sipped an ice cold Coke from the bottle through such a straw since the late 60's.
(Score: 2) by c0lo on Wednesday August 07 2019, @02:12AM (6 children)
Besides, why pick cotton as the comparison term, cotton being one of the most demanding crop to grow?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoFiw2jMy-0
(Score: 2) by inertnet on Wednesday August 07 2019, @06:31AM (4 children)
Probably because the writer assumed that synthetics are even more evil.
(Score: 2) by Pino P on Wednesday August 07 2019, @12:53PM (2 children)
That and vegans call wool evil, and the incumbent petrochemical and pharmaceutical industries will do everything in their power to oppose hemp. Which other plant fiber did c0lo have in mind? Linen from flax?
(Score: 2) by Phoenix666 on Wednesday August 07 2019, @04:23PM (1 child)
Bamboo would be awesome, because cloth made with it is strong and silky soft. Except it's hard to process into fiber and uses a lot of chemicals.
Washington DC delenda est.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday August 07 2019, @06:08PM
Wouldn't a bamboo straw be a bit large? *grin*
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday August 07 2019, @12:53PM
Mixed fabrics are an abomination unto the lard and will not be tolerated!
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday August 07 2019, @06:01PM
why pick cotton...?
Nostalgia, man! And if we use prison labor, we get to shoot the runaways... just like old times
(Score: 2) by darkfeline on Wednesday August 07 2019, @05:59AM (7 children)
If that were the true goal, wouldn't it be more effective to ban something that actually makes up the majority of plastic pollution, like plastic fishing nets, rather than ban something that, even if we eliminated completely, is only a rounding error in the total global amount of plastic pollution?
Nay, the real goal here is not reducing plastic pollution. Cui bono?
Join the SDF Public Access UNIX System today!
(Score: 2) by Nuke on Wednesday August 07 2019, @09:13AM
Rounding error? I often used to pass near a landfill site near Manchester (UK). For a mile or so east of it (down the prevailing wind) the trees and hedges were festooned with plastic bags blown off the site.
(Score: 4, Insightful) by Phoenix666 on Wednesday August 07 2019, @12:26PM (5 children)
Plastic makes such excellent, durable, and light packaging. If we replace it with paper, food gets spoiled before it's eaten and you assholes go back to clearcutting the forests in my beloved West. Result: climate change from deforestation. If we replace it with metal we mine more which means environmental degradation and deforestation. Result: water and air pollution and climate change. If we replace it with glass, everything weighs so much more and we have to burn so much more fossil fuels to move it around. Result: climate change.
Maybe we should stop buying so much shit, repair what we have, grow some of what we consume ourselves, and possibly, maybe, accept the fact that there's no such thing as a free lunch.
Washington DC delenda est.
(Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Thursday August 08 2019, @12:06AM (4 children)
I have this terrible habit of remembering stories, but not the title or the author. Sci-fi story, published many years ago, of two cultures side-by-side in the same solar system. One culture, like us in the western world, is obsessed with packaging everything, to keep stuff clean, pure, blah blah blah. The other culture just throws stuff off the store shelves into one big bag. They don't have time or resources to waste on packaging. Minimal packaging on everything, and none of it plastic, all of it mulchable. I mean, who really cares if your lettuce touches the tomatoes on the way home? They're all going to touch in your stomach!
In the story, at least, the society without the packaging fetish triumphed over the fetishists.
Spoilage? I don't think that's as much as factor as we are led to believe. I can buy mushrooms without packaging, and they seem to last as long as mushrooms in shrink-wrap packaging. I really believe that most packaging is wasteful. At home, reusable containers are the way to go. Put your cooked food into covered bowls, and refrigerate right alongside your unpackaged raw foods.
Abortion is the number one killed of children in the United States.
(Score: 2) by krishnoid on Thursday August 08 2019, @12:33AM
Put it on scifi.stackexchange [stackexchange.com] and let us know the title. Although, they don't have to be in the same solar system to pit the societies against each other -- how they operate right here on Earth should be a good comparison. I suspect presence of a cold chain [wikipedia.org] or general ambient temperature plays a significant part in how long food can be kept usable, though.
(Score: 1) by khallow on Friday August 09 2019, @01:03AM (2 children)
But who has the fetish the worst? My take is people who are willing to regulate our lives to take away packaging options (and related disposable paraphernalia like drinking straws and bags) are far more fetishists than the people who buy stuff based on the packaging.
(Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Friday August 09 2019, @03:10PM (1 child)
Ahhhh, but - the story was on different worlds than we live in.
IMO, we crossed a crazy line with blister packs. FFS, I want a doo-diddy, and it's packaged in a blister pack. I try to finesse the thing out, then I try some strength, then I reach for my handy massacre-ready machete, and sometimes have to resort to dynamite. And, it isn't just my doo-diddy. Granddaughter gets a doll for Christmas, or birthday. "Pa-Paw, can you open my doll?" This is where men have shined, for decades, at least. The man of the house can always open a jar, a can, a milk can, whatever. Those blister packs? FEK!! "Pa-Paw's sorry he cut the head and legs off your dolly, really truly sorry. Maybe you'd like to keep Pa-Paw's machete, to make up for the doll?"
Abortion is the number one killed of children in the United States.
(Score: 2, Funny) by khallow on Friday August 09 2019, @09:53PM
And no way I'd give a grandkid a machete after I just mutilated their birthday doll. They just might decide to see if my heads and legs would work as replacements!
(Score: -1, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday August 07 2019, @09:07AM (3 children)
Plants produce pollen which persts in environment for HUNDREDS MILLION YEARS and yet eco-weirdos are not clamoring for a ban on all seed plants, are they?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pollen#In_the_fossil_record [wikipedia.org]
Deserts produce silica dust that gets blown around the world, and yet we see no movement for a ban on sand.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asian_Dust [wikipedia.org]
Etc, etc, etc...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dust [wikipedia.org]
(Score: 2) by tangomargarine on Wednesday August 07 2019, @05:18PM (2 children)
Just because something *can* become fossilized does not mean that it is non-biodegradable. If pollen never degraded, the entire world would be drowning in the pollen accumulation.
Wood can get petrified, which is basically the same as fossilization. Wood is still biodegradable.
"Is that really true?" "I just spent the last hour telling you to think for yourself! Didn't you hear anything I said?"
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday August 08 2019, @05:29AM (1 child)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sporopollenin [wikipedia.org]
People wishing to "protect nature" would do well if they learn a bit about the ways nature really works.
(Score: 2) by tangomargarine on Thursday August 08 2019, @07:39PM
So pretty much what I was saying before
"Is that really true?" "I just spent the last hour telling you to think for yourself! Didn't you hear anything I said?"
(Score: 1, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday August 07 2019, @01:53AM (5 children)
Make your own out of worn out clothes and they are definitely better for the environment than plastic.
(Score: 2) by Hartree on Wednesday August 07 2019, @01:56AM
I've sometimes done that (made wraps for holding my tool sets out of old bluejeans. Dad used to make his fruit picking bags that way.). But these days most people I know don't have sewing machines and stitching by hand takes a lot of time.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday August 07 2019, @02:09AM (1 child)
Not just clothes, you can save all your plastic/foil food bags. Saw some recycled bags sewn into various items and they were very sturdy.
The main problem with reuse/recycle is that there is little economic incentive to do so. The cost of collecting the bags and then sewing them into something useful is much higher than anyone is willingly going to pay for them. Same for recycled glass/plastic, and the only solution is one that people don't like. REGULATION and TAXES! You have to tax the new items to the point that it costs more for the brand new one.
(Score: 1) by khallow on Friday August 09 2019, @01:10AM
Another solution is to simply not do that. After all, the lack of economic incentive is an indication that it's not a valuable thing to do. Sure, there are real world externalities that don't play a role in those economic incentives. But there are also imaginary externalities invented by meddlers with the subsequent regulations introducing more externalities than they reduce.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday August 07 2019, @03:27AM
(Score: 3, Funny) by MostCynical on Wednesday August 07 2019, @06:08AM
So I can't keep wearing my worn out clothes?
"I guess once you start doubting, there's no end to it." -Batou, Ghost in the Shell: Stand Alone Complex
(Score: 2) by Hartree on Wednesday August 07 2019, @01:53AM (6 children)
I don't reuse all of them, but plastic bags I brought groceries home in get used for holding my lunch, as storage containers, receptacles for all sorts of icky crud that I don't want to through uncontained into the wastebasket, etc, etc. Not having them wouldn't be a real problem, but I would have to find substitutes.
(Score: 1, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday August 07 2019, @02:08AM (5 children)
Same here, we re-use nearly all the plastic grocery bags we get. NY State has a ban starting in 2020, when we run out of our stockpile (which we are building now) we may have to purchase bags for trash (etc). The bags we've been able to buy so far seem to be thicker than the free shopping bags, so we would wind up adding more weight of plastic to the world...
On the other hand, I can see where the problem starts--some of our neighbors don't do a good job containing their trash and after a windy day there are often plastic shopping bags blowing around (ugh).
Lately I've started to reuse the smaller clear bags that our stores give away for produce, taking clean bags back to the store to fill with more produce. With a little care, they seem to be good for 2-3 uses before they rip.
Related: I keep hearing comparisons between cost of plastic and re-usable bags. We have a bunch of re-usables (which we use some of the time, good for heavy items), these are a mix of cloth and synthetic materials. Haven't had to pay for any of them, they are free give-aways at trade shows and other events, and we inherited a few cloth bags from an estate.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday August 07 2019, @03:17AM (4 children)
I don't know where you've been shopping but my last trip to the grocery, I had two of them rip before I got out the door. I had one spill out all over the checkout line. They are beyond flimsy and I would never try to reuse them.
(Score: 1, Funny) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday August 07 2019, @03:30AM (1 child)
(Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday August 07 2019, @03:42AM
> ... close to being sterile
Why is this relevant? Produce, almost by definition, comes from a farm, laden with bacteria. A little more from a reused bag isn't going to make any difference, imho. This is why we wash/peel (and/or cook/boil) produce before eating it.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday August 07 2019, @03:39AM (1 child)
> I don't know where you've been shopping
https://www.wegmans.com/ [wegmans.com]
If you overload or put sharp items in the plastic produce bags, I agree that they are easy to rip. Mostly I try to avoid using them at all.
Larger items like bananas or zucchini don't need an additional bag. But, for example, loose green beans are certainly easier to carry with an additional bag.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday August 07 2019, @03:57AM
Kroger for me.
I had one bag with peaches fall apart while still in produce and was able to double bag it. I had ears of unshucked corn all over the checkout line later with the other. I was careful to load the bag with the sharpest side up too.
(Score: 2, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday August 07 2019, @02:06AM (2 children)
"Another route that some jurisdictions, including Washington, D.C., have implemented is adopting plastic bag fees instead of bans. This approach, which allows customers to continue using plastic carryout bags as trash bags for a small fee, has been shown to be as effective as bans in encouraging consumers to switch to reusable bags."
So fees > bans, sounds good.
"Using sales data from retail outlets, I found that bag bans in California reduced plastic carryout bag usage by 40 million lb. per year, but that this reduction was offset by a 12-million-lb. annual increase in trash bag sales. This meant that 30% of the plastic eliminated by the ban was coming back in the form of trash bags, which are thicker than typical plastic carryout bags."
So while fees > bans it seems that even with unaccounted for re-use the ban still reduced plastic consumption by a large factor.
"To have less impact on the climate than plastic carryout bags also reused as trash bags, consumers would need to use the cotton bag 327 times."
Yeah, well that isn't a very big deal. One sturdy reusable bag can hold way more weight than the disposables and they are usually larger so they can carry more. They also double up as useful bags for any occasion, I've used mine for multiple moves mostly as book bags since they can handle the weight.
Society is on the right track with reducing plastic consumption but it is nice to have some research showing that fees are better than bans, something most around here would probably appreciate. Don't tread on muh future poop bags! /ns
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday August 07 2019, @03:40AM
(Score: 2) by hwertz on Thursday August 08 2019, @05:46AM
A few stores locally do this without any government intervention. Aldi charges like 5 cents a bag, HyVee gives a 5 cent discount per reusable bag you use, Lowes does too. A large fraction of people at Aldi and HyVee are reusing bags, no ban or gov't intervention required.
(Score: 3, Funny) by fustakrakich on Wednesday August 07 2019, @02:10AM (1 child)
Now you have to buy them. (do get the scented ones, please)
Eisenhower warned us about this
La politica e i criminali sono la stessa cosa..
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday August 07 2019, @05:22AM
petrochemical industrial complex? outlaw the *bewbs*! damn commie.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday August 07 2019, @02:10AM (5 children)
I mean viral all over. So hope they didn’t make any mistakes or miss something like
What if the canvas bag was made from recycled cotton?
(Score: 2) by c0lo on Wednesday August 07 2019, @02:18AM (4 children)
Better still, what if it was make from hemp/weed fibers? Let the people grow their own and sell the fibers on the free market.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoFiw2jMy-0
(Score: 2) by Dr Spin on Wednesday August 07 2019, @08:09AM (1 child)
Warning: "Smoking supermarket shopping bags can be hazardous to health"
Warning: Opening your mouth may invalidate your brain!
(Score: 2) by c0lo on Wednesday August 07 2019, @08:24AM
As opposed to today, when is very likely lethal? Yet another point of in favour of hemp shopping bags.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoFiw2jMy-0
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday August 07 2019, @10:23PM (1 child)
Weed for smoking usually is the more bushy variety that isn't as good for fiber. It could be used for hempseed, but then the weed would be ruined.
(Score: 2) by c0lo on Wednesday August 07 2019, @11:21PM
Don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good.
It's still better than plastic. (grin)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoFiw2jMy-0
(Score: 1, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday August 07 2019, @02:19AM (5 children)
For decades, the insertion of a good into the bag was the line of demarcation of purchase.
Now, I carry all sorts of whatnot into retail establishments to transport purchases from the store.
If people took a mind to stealing stuff, it's that much harder to detect. I see too many people ripping off WalMart as it is. Especially at automated checkouts.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday August 07 2019, @02:26AM (2 children)
Do tell! Ripping off Walmart? Is that even possible? At least they weren't shooting up the place with automated rifles.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday August 07 2019, @05:27AM (1 child)
what is this "automated rifle" of which you speak?
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday August 07 2019, @11:21AM
I meant "semi-automated check-out stands". Is that better?
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday August 07 2019, @03:34AM (1 child)
And you get to subsidize those scumbag thieves. How does it feel to know you help pay for their merchandise? You're their Santa Claus.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday August 07 2019, @04:44AM
Yes, exactly what you said.
That's why I am pissed enough to put up a post.
(Score: 2) by takyon on Wednesday August 07 2019, @02:21AM (10 children)
https://www.greenbiz.com/article/aldi-cracks-down-plastic-waste [greenbiz.com]
[SIG] 10/28/2017: Soylent Upgrade v14 [soylentnews.org]
(Score: 2) by PartTimeZombie on Wednesday August 07 2019, @03:04AM (4 children)
We have had a plastic bag ban where I live, so I can't reuse the supermarket bags to line my rubbish bin.
Now I use bags made from corn starch which break down in the landfill. They cost me something like $3 for 20, so not exactly expensive.
I think we should have mandated corn starch bags in the supermarkets instead of just banning plastic bags, but there was an awful lot of knee-jerking going on at the time, so no-one was listening.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday August 07 2019, @03:37AM (2 children)
I think you mean a lot of circle jerking among the greenie contingent.
(Score: 1, Funny) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday August 07 2019, @04:20AM
You can buy plastic straws on the Trump merch site. Coincidence? If plastic was good enough for the Founding Fathers, it's good enough for us, no matter what these libtard hippy greenies say!!!!!1!
(Score: 2) by PartTimeZombie on Thursday August 08 2019, @01:47AM
There was a bit of of that, yes, but the majority of the nonsense came from the supermarket cartel (we have a cartel of two companies) who saw a chance to offload a cost onto their customers.
The media helped, because advertising dollars.
(Score: 1) by pTamok on Wednesday August 07 2019, @07:42AM
What!?
Now that figure is open to criticism, but even so, 300 cents for 20 bags is 15 cents per bag. That is a lot of money.
(Score: 1, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday August 07 2019, @03:50AM
I read the Aldi article, looks like they are in favor of a deposit/return scheme on drinks bottles, so good for them.
We have had a 5 cent deposit for some kinds of bottles in NY State for many years, both plastic and glass. The result is that our roads are remarkably free of broken glass (and plastic bottle litter), compared to other places I've been with no bottle deposit. This is speaking as a bicyclist, where glass on the road costs real time and money, when a cut tire has to be repaired/replaced.
(Score: 2) by c0lo on Wednesday August 07 2019, @04:01AM (3 children)
I'll believe when I'll see it.
For the moment, almost everything I buy from ALDI is plastic-wrapped. A good amount of them in trays of an indescribable non-recyclable black tray, with a cling-wrap all around, anothers in serve-sizes sealed in a plastic bag. The shopping bag you may need to buy at the exit if you aren't using a reusable shopping bag? Makes at most 5% of the whole plastic one takes away at every shopping with ALDI (unless you buy only canned products).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoFiw2jMy-0
(Score: 2) by takyon on Wednesday August 07 2019, @04:08AM (2 children)
Newer article: https://www.environmentalleader.com/2019/04/aldi-commits-to-reducing-plastic-waste/ [environmentalleader.com]
They are also pretty good about labeling their own products, including a "not recyclable" symbol and separate marks for multiple materials on some packages.
[SIG] 10/28/2017: Soylent Upgrade v14 [soylentnews.org]
(Score: 3, Insightful) by c0lo on Wednesday August 07 2019, @04:39AM (1 child)
As I said, I'll believe it when I'll see it. Unlikely I'll die by 2025.
For example, take:
Question: reusable by who? E.g. if they sell me a plastic punnet with strawberry, it's unlikely I'm gonna be able to reuse it for some of my purposes.
That wouldn't stop them of classifying it as reusable, just because some small percentage of population may find uses for punnets.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoFiw2jMy-0
(Score: 3, Informative) by MostCynical on Wednesday August 07 2019, @06:26AM
They make great display cases for mould growth on strawberries, though.
"I guess once you start doubting, there's no end to it." -Batou, Ghost in the Shell: Stand Alone Complex
(Score: 1) by notrandom on Wednesday August 07 2019, @06:10AM
In Romania we have a big plastic bag filled with all other plastic bags around every house!
We do this since the days of Ceausescu :)
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday August 07 2019, @07:57AM (3 children)
And I've used the same 2 bags since 2016 ... fuck ... and they don't even have holes in them. Almost like new. 5x a week shopping too.
How is this equivalent? I bought garbage bags. These bags are for my garbage. They are literally 1/3 the thickness of the old plastic carrying bags and actually fit the garbage can properly. You know, right tool for the job. And since here in Germany, you get paper compost bags for organic crap and container bags for most of the container garbage you buy at the store, my other, small regular garbage bag lasts me a MONTH.
So I don't know. Maybe I didn't miss the waste of reusing piles of shit plastic bags for garbage. And with proper garbage management, I would never be able to even use these mountains of plastic anyway.
Not sure, maybe this was written by someone that doesn't know any better or sponsored by the plastic bag industry.
(Score: 1, Funny) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday August 07 2019, @01:44PM (2 children)
You shop five times a week? Do you have nothing else in your life to do except shop?
(Score: 2) by hendrikboom on Wednesday August 07 2019, @03:05PM
In parts of the world where shops are intimately interspersed with residences, it's quite common to walk out in your neighborhood, see what's on offer, chat with other neighbors, and buy whatever seems good to cook in the evening.
Not feasible with vast suburban tracts zoned residential only.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday August 07 2019, @07:54PM
Well, if the poster is anything like me, the full time job that I did my shopping on the way back from every weekday probably counts as 'something else in your life'.
Self employment has changed this shopping pattern.
(Score: 1) by jmichaelhudsondotnet on Wednesday August 07 2019, @08:45AM
First, the logic of this is problematic. Banning plastic bags causes the ones who are being re-used to increase rather than gradually decrease? That can't be right. Also, could they word it more awkwardly? '131 times to reduce warming potential below that of plastic bags' is really bad writing. But this is I guess the standard over at the greenbuildingadvisor.
This plastic bag controversy is the least and most piddly of all of our ecological concerns yet as a species our answer to it is near paralysis.
Are these plastic bags themselves vexing us? Is there a singular plastic bag baron secretly coercing us through mind control and a vast manipulation of the socio-economic system?
Then jeff bozo comes to the rescue with robots flying the goods to our back patio with *even more* packaging and if any alien species came to this planet and observed this disasta I don't know if they would laugh or cry at are truly pitiful capacity to solve problems.
Every waste is a resource. If anyone wants to help me start a company that will make money fixing these plastic problem, just let me know. Not kidding. There are numerous solutions however the plastic industry has not been attracting the right type of people so I guess I will help out in exchange for vast wealth. Sometimes the problem isn't the engineering, it is the size of the overton window.
(Score: 4, Informative) by KritonK on Wednesday August 07 2019, @08:51AM (3 children)
In Greece, supermarkets charge an environmental fee for plastic bags, but not all plastic bags. If the bags are too thin, there is no charge. Ditto, if they are too thick. The bags in the vegetables department are of the too thin variety, and many people use them for more than just vegetables. The bags given during checkout are of the too thick variety, so supermarkets charge the so-called environmental fee, but essentially sell the bags at a small (these thick bags are expensive) profit, rather than handing the money to the state, which is supposed to use the money to distribute free cotton bags.
In any case, the amount of plastic this practice saves is very little. Yesterday, e.g., I bought some liver from the supermarket. It was placed in a (free) plastic bag, then wrapped in the supermarket's (free) wrapping paper, which is coated with plastic, then placed in another (free) plastic bag, presumably to prevent any dripping. In addition, if you by anything prepackaged, anywhere, it is covered in tons of (free) plastic, so limiting the use of plastic bags, which had already been biodegradable for years, has little to no effect to the environment.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday August 07 2019, @11:46AM (2 children)
Except it's not.
https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2016/may/23/biodegradable-plastic-false-solution-for-ocean-waste-problem [theguardian.com]
(Score: 2) by KritonK on Wednesday August 07 2019, @03:24PM (1 child)
The ones we have over here turn to dust after a few months. I've notice this first hand.
(Score: 3, Funny) by Chocolate on Wednesday August 07 2019, @11:07PM
After a steak is shoved through it?
Bit-choco-coin anyone?
(Score: 3, Insightful) by Rich on Wednesday August 07 2019, @11:58AM
...is the plastic around pre-packaged items. I just went to the kitchen and got out the scales. A rather large and sturdy plastic carrybag with two solid attached handles came at 25g. An empty pack that held 150g of sliced ham weighed in at 26g, alone. Once the carrybag is reasonably loaded, it will amount to maybe a tenth of the total plastic waste. The other 90% are waste after single use, while the carrybag gets reused a few times, before it meets its fate as trash bag (saving one of those).
In the end we're talking about plastic carrybags being responsible for a single digit percentage of waste. To me, it looks like the wrong thing to start with if one is serious about reducing waste levels. I have wondered before where the push to reduce exactly these comes from. I could only imagine that the intent is more about selling upmarket options or adding a "premium" touch to checkout zones (who wants to see poor people carry around plastic bags?).
And let us not get started on compound (eg. carton/metalized plastics for drinks) material containers. To solve the issue, standardized reusable containers would be best, which are refilled at the point of sale. But that would require, god help us, the state telling free people to stick to mandated standards.
(Score: 2) by Coward, Anonymous on Wednesday August 07 2019, @08:51PM (1 child)
I know a lot of Asian people who hoard used plastic bags, like they are made of gold or at least silver. Must be a cultural thing.
(Score: 2) by J_Darnley on Friday August 09 2019, @09:52AM
We, a middle class family living in Western Europe, did the same until the plastic bag fascists declared the supermarkets must remove them.