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from the slow-roasting-grills-of-justice dept.
A federal judge on Tuesday roasted Arkansas' law banning makers of meatless meat products from using words such as "burger," "sausage," "roast," and "meat" in their labeling.
[...] Judge Kristine Baker, of the US District Court for the Eastern District of Arkansas, granted a preliminary injunction that prevents the state from enforcing the law while the legal case is ongoing. In her order, Judge Baker made clear that the law appears to violate the Free Speech Clause of the First Amendment—as Tofurky argued. She determined that the state will likely lose the case.
[...] "The State argues that Tofurky's labels for its plant-based products are inherently misleading because they use the names and descriptors of traditional meat items but do not actually include the product they invoke, including terms like 'chorizo,' 'hot dogs,' 'sausage,' and 'ham roast,'" Judge Baker noted. Such misleading or false labels would not be protected commercial speech under the First Amendment, the state claimed.But Judge Baker essentially called that argument bologna.
[...] She went on to cite a ruling in a similar case that determined that "Under Plaintiffs' logic, a reasonable consumer might also believe that veggie bacon contains pork, that flourless chocolate cake contains flour, or that e-books are made out of paper.""That assumption is unwarranted," she went on. "The labels in the record evidence include ample terminology to indicate the vegan or vegetarian nature of the products."
[...] Meat and dairy industry groups have been increasingly working to try to limit the use of terms like "milk" and "meat" in other states and contexts as meatless and diary-free products continue to grow in popularity. Missouri, Mississippi, Louisiana, and South Dakota have similar anti-veggie-meat labeling laws. In Wisconsin, lawmakers have considered banning non-dairy products from using the word "milk," such as beverages labeled almond milk.The latter issue led former FDA commissioner Scott Gottlieb to quip last year that "You know, an almond doesn't lactate." He said that the Food and Drug Administration is working on a guidance for the use of the term.
https://arstechnica.com/science/2019/12/judge-serves-up-sizzling-rebuke-of-arkansas-anti-veggie-meat-labeling-law/
Previous Stories:
https://soylentnews.org/article.pl?sid=19/12/04/1425220
https://soylentnews.org/article.pl?sid=19/07/07/1443201
https://soylentnews.org/article.pl?sid=18/02/26/2315236
(Score: 3, Insightful) by Booga1 on Saturday December 14 2019, @04:33PM (48 children)
I can understand a law that restricts the term "meat" but not broad terms like sausage, hot dog, burger, and roast.
Besides, I doubt people feel misled by the "meat alternative" manufacturers. Most people look for the meat-less products intentionally and the packaging itself often makes it quite obvious it is a meat free substitute for the equivalent ingredient.
Nobody complains about hamburgers not being made of ham.
(Score: 1, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday December 14 2019, @04:52PM (21 children)
...hamburgers are called hamburgers because they come from Hamburg, not because they have ham. They've always been made with ground beef. Similar for other things like sausages, hot dogs, and roasts. Not similar that they come from Hamburg, but similar that they've always been made with meat. Trying to steal the names is exclusively an attempt to confuse consumers. The 'Impossible Burger' is probably the most overt example of this.
(Score: 2) by Booga1 on Saturday December 14 2019, @05:05PM (16 children)
Yes, I know. That's my point. Nobody cares about Hamburg and the origins of the name. Do you think anyone is confused by it, or the "Impossible BurgerTM"?
(Score: 3, Interesting) by EEMac on Saturday December 14 2019, @06:08PM (15 children)
YES.
We went to Del Taco several months ago. My nephew ordered a " Epic Beyond Cali Burrito". He couldn't figure out why it tasted weird, then realized it was made with a vegetable-based meat substitute. He was confused by the marketing and not at all pleased.
There's a lot of interpretations of "beyond" or "impossible". Does it mean something important? Is marketing just bringing in another term that sells well with some age group or other? If you're selling fake meat, it had better be clearly labeled.
P.S. He offered a bite of the fake-meat burrito to the dog. The dog wouldn't eat it.
(Score: 5, Insightful) by Booga1 on Saturday December 14 2019, @06:20PM (12 children)
I fail to see anything in "Epic Beyond Cali Burrito" that implies there is any kind of meat in it. Burritos are tortillas wrapped around a filling. If it's all vegetables, it's still a burrito.
Did they claim it was supposed to be chicken, beef, pork, or other meat?
(Score: 4, Disagree) by EEMac on Saturday December 14 2019, @06:32PM (11 children)
I fail to see anything in "Epic Beyond Cali Burrito" that implies there is NOT any kind of meat in it, and it intentionally looks like it's made with hamburger.
Let's keep the goal posts in place. I replied to:
Yes. My nephew was confused by similar marketing.
(Score: 5, Informative) by Booga1 on Saturday December 14 2019, @06:50PM (8 children)
Alright, so I'll keep the goalpost at "Epic Beyond Cali Burrito" and quote you their marketing:
It's very clearly marked as vegetarian and plant-based. There is absolutely no mention of beef, chicken, pork, or other animal product. That being said, your nephew and those around him are now aware that the words "epic beyond cali" have no meaning with regards to the flesh of any particular animal.
(Score: -1, Flamebait) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday December 14 2019, @07:54PM (6 children)
Ignorant boomer type wants to be angry, let them be angry at their failure to interpret reality.
(Score: 4, Insightful) by Booga1 on Saturday December 14 2019, @08:08PM (5 children)
Hey now, let's keep this civil.
Your attempt to label them as a supposed "boomer type" tells me more about you than them and it doesn't add anything to the conversation.
(Score: 1) by EEMac on Sunday December 15 2019, @05:25AM (1 child)
Since I can't find a way to send a private message, I'll say it here: that was very cool of you to do. Thank you.
(Score: 2) by Booga1 on Sunday December 15 2019, @04:25PM
Thanks. I thought your comments were informative. After all, I trust you're telling the truth with regards to your experiences, and your nephew's surprise burrito. Nobody likes to be served food that isn't what they wanted.
Maybe the signs in the store were lacking. Maybe it was just unexpected due to ordering based on what picture looked tasty at the moment the order was placed. That is a certainly a common problem, especially with new products. I often order new or novel dishes since I want to find out if I like it or not. Most of the time it's a "one and done" deal if it doesn't suit me.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday December 15 2019, @07:08PM (2 children)
Sure I get your point, I'm just tired of all the outrage over vegetarian options and the insults that go with it. We younger generations get shit on for disliking racism and inequality, but someone eating a veggie option by accident "CALL 911!"
Peak boomer mentality, but I guess bigotry is only allowed in one direction. Maybe analyze your personal feelings about being labeled as part of a generation, then imagine how much worse it is for LGBTQ/darker skin/different religion people who are regularly shat upon by users here.
But ok, BOOMER is a line too far. Pardon me, I think my eyes rolled out of my head.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday December 16 2019, @02:24AM
Not a boomer here, but I will start to care about people's tender little fee-fees about this topic the very nanosecond that vegans start being relaxed about which grill their buzzword-friendly meat substitute was cooked on.
Not holding my breath, here.
(Oh, and as for the whole racism and inequality thing, you do realise that boomers were the main generation behind things like disinvestment from South Africa, leftward swings in politics that dominated the last half of the 20th century and all the fun of disarmament and barefooted hippie protests ... right? Millenials weren't even born then, and Gen X was in grade school, if that.)
(Score: 2) by Booga1 on Monday December 16 2019, @04:23AM
You're absolutely right about the directional nature of racism and bigotry. However, my reply was an attempt to short circuit the response pattern of escalation so the conversation could continue.
When you see a childish insult as a response, no matter who it's from or who it's directed at, it usually means you've lost the ability to have a discussion. It's an attempt to silence the other side by marginalizing them into a box with a neat little label. The insult itself isn't really material as it's more of a signpost of where things are headed in a debate.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday December 15 2019, @03:26AM
You are like a Trump supporter who will intentionally not understand what is going on
(Score: 2) by helel on Saturday December 14 2019, @07:21PM (1 child)
What, exactly, do the words "Made with 100% plant-based protein" mean to you? That seems to be the main descriptor of the "Epic Beyond Cali Burrito," along with others such as "vegetarian" and "plant-based crumbles."
(Score: 2) by legont on Saturday December 14 2019, @09:05PM
This means for me that there was "100% plant-based protein" added to the dish. It may be as little as 1% of the total mass or as much as 70%.
When I cook myself, I always add 100% plant based protein to my beef mainly as nut oils.
"Wealth is the relentless enemy of understanding" - John Kenneth Galbraith.
(Score: 2) by krishnoid on Sunday December 15 2019, @07:20AM
The dog was obviously not going to turn to canni-- I'm sorry, I've already said too much.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday December 15 2019, @04:00PM
Keep in mind that the Del Taco burrito does not have a consumer product label. Your nephew was probably reading a menu or saw a marketing poster. Product labels have much more detailed ingredient information than fast food menus and posters.
On the other hand, Del Taco should probably state "meatless" on the menu/poster if they want vegetarians to purchase that item.
(Score: 2) by fyngyrz on Saturday December 14 2019, @06:36PM
Well, clearly, they should change the name of that city, or I might end up buying plane tickets when I only meant to get a hamburger. I'm a just poor witless consumer over here, trying to rub two brain cells together. I need protection to be dispensed by our Great Legislative Bodies! Save me, O Lordly arbiters of confusion!
--
When I dunk my cookies, I think of you.
I hold them under until the bubbles stop.
(Score: 1, Funny) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday December 14 2019, @06:46PM
I guess you never looked into what goes into sausage and hot dogs.
(Score: 2) by RamiK on Saturday December 14 2019, @09:09PM (1 child)
This comment does not contain actual fruit.
compiling...
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday December 15 2019, @02:00AM
My belief is "offal" is the most accurate word to describe the ingredients of hot dogs and sausage.
With sufficient spices, they can be made quite tasty.
(Score: 3, Insightful) by barbara hudson on Saturday December 14 2019, @05:33PM (18 children)
Same as if you want to label something as fruit juice it has to contain 20% real juice, otherwise it's fruit drink, and doesn't have to contain any fruit juice. Stupid parents buying juice boxes with as much real juice as Koop-aid.
As for the rest, labels saying it's vegetarian or vegan are sufficient.
SoylentNews is social media. Says so right in the slogan. Soylentnews is people, not tech.
(Score: 2, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday December 14 2019, @07:21PM (1 child)
uhh i think milk can mean the "drinkable squeezings"?
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/milk [merriam-webster.com]
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday December 15 2019, @02:03AM
Milk of Magnesia... Beyond Milk?
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday December 14 2019, @07:51PM (3 children)
Human Babies shouldn’t be drinking cows milk (assuming that is what you mean by “milk” here).
(Score: 3, Interesting) by barbara hudson on Saturday December 14 2019, @09:12PM
Stop pushing Nestle's bullshit about baby formula being better. It's not. In cases where the mother's milk is high levels of DDT and lead (yes, we are still dealing with those), cow's / goat's milk is better than breast milk.
SoylentNews is social media. Says so right in the slogan. Soylentnews is people, not tech.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday December 15 2019, @03:07AM (1 child)
That's a bold claim relating to nutirtional needs of an infant, care to provide some credentials, or are you practicing without a license?
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday December 15 2019, @06:04AM
And yet I don't see you taking issue with the other person saying that babies shouldn't be drinking almond milk.
(Score: 3, Insightful) by dry on Sunday December 15 2019, @03:23AM (4 children)
Throw out 800 years of accepted usage due to someone fraudulently calling water with an almond added almond milk? Perhaps better to have a rule similar to the one you propose for juice.
According to wiki, actually their citation at https://web.archive.org/web/20181230085351/https://www.foodinsight.org/whats-in-a-name-types-of-milk-dairy-nondairy-alternatives-consumer-research [archive.org] 75%+ understand that plant based milks don't contain dairy and 90% understand that whole milk refers to cows milk. The only really confusing one seems to be lactose free milk.
Seems education might be better then trampling on freedom to use common words in their common way.
(Score: 2) by barbara hudson on Sunday December 15 2019, @03:55AM (3 children)
Almond milk is a fraud. One almond in a carton is not "almond milk". Same as you can't call ice milk ice cream. Not enough milk fat content.
BTW - milk doesn't only come from cows. Try goat milk - it's quite tasty. And it still qualifies as milk because it's produced from mammals, not plants.
And I didn't "propose" a rule for juice - it's the actual law. Must be real fruit juice or it can't be called fruit juice - hence the labelling "fruit drink". AKA flavoured sugar water.
SoylentNews is social media. Says so right in the slogan. Soylentnews is people, not tech.
(Score: 2) by dry on Sunday December 15 2019, @04:54AM (2 children)
Yes, it does sound like almond milk is a fraud, though the American courts refused an injunction based on false advertising. Sadly it seems pretty popular despite the low amount of protein, I guess people think it is a nut.
Seems almond milk dates from the 12th century, and in English, the word milk has also referred to plant based milks since about the same time, with almond milk being popular during religious fasts.
I don't really like any animal milk, cows milk doesn't agree, goats is too gamey, at least what I have had. Have had cheeses from various animals, camel, water buffalo, sheep, goat and cow at least, they're all good if aged. Never tried pigeon milk.
As for the fruit juice law, seems we need similar for almond milk along with a warning that it is not suitable for infants.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday December 15 2019, @08:51AM (1 child)
There is a reason for that. Involves mammilaries. Look them up, but do not look at them, directly, too much.
(Score: 3, Informative) by Muad'Dave on Monday December 16 2019, @02:09PM
Crop milk [wikipedia.org] is a thing.
(Score: 2) by Freeman on Monday December 16 2019, @06:41PM (6 children)
Milk isn't an acceptable substitute for babies, either. Mothers who can't produce enough milk for their children should definitely look into Formula solutions for their baby.
https://www.babycenter.com/0_cows-milk-when-and-how-to-introduce-it_1334703.bc [babycenter.com]
Joshua 1:9 "Be strong and of a good courage; be not afraid, neither be thou dismayed: for the Lord thy God is with thee"
(Score: 2) by barbara hudson on Wednesday December 18 2019, @02:41AM (5 children)
That's bullshit. Almost all babies can digest 50% cows milk no problem. Same as almost all babies can digest 100% mother's milk no problem.
Your citation is from a web site owned by Johnson and Johnson. They sell baby formula via Mead Johnson. Don't depend on them telling the truth when their paycheque demands they lie.
SoylentNews is social media. Says so right in the slogan. Soylentnews is people, not tech.
(Score: 2) by Freeman on Wednesday December 18 2019, @03:44PM (4 children)
Or you could listen to the NHS:
https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/pregnancy-and-baby/types-of-infant-formula/ [www.nhs.uk]
Then there's the Mayo Clinic as well:
https://www.mayoclinic.org/healthy-lifestyle/infant-and-toddler-health/in-depth/infant-formula/art-20045782 [mayoclinic.org]
Joshua 1:9 "Be strong and of a good courage; be not afraid, neither be thou dismayed: for the Lord thy God is with thee"
(Score: 2) by barbara hudson on Thursday December 19 2019, @12:23AM (3 children)
Too much medical advice is based off manufacturers advertising handouts to doctors. One good example is antidepressants - after more than 60 years, still no independent proof that they actually work, and in most cases they're no better than a placebo - but with more side effects.
SoylentNews is social media. Says so right in the slogan. Soylentnews is people, not tech.
(Score: 2) by Freeman on Thursday December 19 2019, @04:19PM (2 children)
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2684040/ [nih.gov]
https://medlineplus.gov/ency/article/002448.htm [medlineplus.gov]
Breastmilk is the #1 best source of food for an infant. #2 best source is forumla. #3 better than starving to death source is animal milk.
Joshua 1:9 "Be strong and of a good courage; be not afraid, neither be thou dismayed: for the Lord thy God is with thee"
(Score: 2) by barbara hudson on Thursday December 19 2019, @05:44PM (1 child)
SoylentNews is social media. Says so right in the slogan. Soylentnews is people, not tech.
(Score: 2) by Freeman on Thursday December 19 2019, @09:09PM
#1 You assume I've not raised my own. #2 Just because people have done something for a very long time, doesn't mean it's best. #3 I like modern science. Air conditioning, Antibiotics, Vaccines, Infant Formula, etc.
Joshua 1:9 "Be strong and of a good courage; be not afraid, neither be thou dismayed: for the Lord thy God is with thee"
(Score: 5, Insightful) by Arik on Saturday December 14 2019, @05:56PM (2 children)
I can't agree with that, ridiculous. You're going to outlaw the primary meaning of the word meat?
Meat, earlier mēte; food, solid food as opposed to drink; or the nutritious part of a plant or animal as opposed to an inedible husk skin or pod containing it. Compare Gothic mats, OHG maz, modern Swedish mat. All carrying that same primary meaning. The meat of a nut, the meat of a gourd, the meat of an animal - all are meat.
The usage of meat specifically for animal meat rather than other kinds is a secondary, derived sense that only dates to the 14th century, when the phrase "flesh-meat" (meaning meat of an animal) became so common that it started being shortened to simply "meat" with the meaning being obvious from context.
I'm no fan of fake hamburgers but I'm also no fan of speech codes, even in theory - let alone in practice, where they wind up getting set by people that don't actually understand the language very well to begin with.
If laughter is the best medicine, who are the best doctors?
(Score: 5, Insightful) by Booga1 on Saturday December 14 2019, @06:15PM
Alright. You've won a convert. While "meat" is also a vegetable term I've heard used I was never confused by the usage. Heck, artichoke "hearts" is also common. There's no beating heart organ in artichokes, yet it's also acceptable.
(Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday December 14 2019, @08:05PM
Or worse those who do understand but have a vested interest in corrupting our common language for political or economic gain.
(Score: 2, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday December 14 2019, @07:53PM
You are correct that the core issue is truth in advertising. If something is marketed as a VeggieBurger or a Soysage then a potential buyer can make an informed purchase. But what about an Impossible Burger? If you don't already know what that is then the name tells you nothing. Coconut milk and almond milk are also unambiguous but if it just says "milk" most people will assume cow milk. Goat milk is specified for the same reason.
(Score: 3, Informative) by Joe Desertrat on Saturday December 14 2019, @11:22PM
Not to mention every supermarket I have seen keeps these sort of items isolated, usually in their own section in produce, far away from the meat section.
(Score: 3, Informative) by datapharmer on Sunday December 15 2019, @02:01PM (1 child)
The funny thing is that legal “standard of identity” already exists and has been around for decades. It got started after the olden days of food manufacturing when you had no idea what you were getting - think “The Jungle”. You can read them here: https://www.accessdata.fda.gov/scripts/cdrh/cfdocs/cfcfr/CFRSearch.cfm?CFRPart=130 [fda.gov]
No need for State laws, just enforcement which the current executive branch has no interest in doing.
While standards of identity can change, they are regulated and sausage does specify it contains meat, and meat is fat and protein of animals. If something else is sold as sausage it is in violation of federal regulations unless those regulations are changed.
(Score: 2) by Booga1 on Sunday December 15 2019, @02:10PM
Interesting. Stuff like this bugs the heck outta me. So many times I see people say something like "there ought to be a law!" Yet, there is already a law in place, but nobody's enforcing it. So, there's a push to make a new law to cover some smaller detail or particular situation. Repeat ad infinitum.
P.S. I think the worst of the bunch is when you basically tack on something like, "on a computer" to the offense, as if the original law didn't cover it.