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Whether ageing can be cured or not, there are arguments for thinking about it like a disease. But there are major pitfalls, too.
The first depiction of humanity's obsession with curing death is The Epic of Gilgamesh—which, dating back to at least 1800 B.C., is also one of the first recorded works of literature, period. Centuries later, the ancient Roman playwright Terentius declared, "Old age itself is a sickness," and Cicero argued "we must struggle against [old age], as against a disease." In 450 B.C., Herodotus wrote about the fountain of youth, a restorative spring that reverses aging and inspired explorers such as Ponce de León. But what once was a mythical holy grail is now seemingly within tantalizing reach. As humans' understanding and knowledge of science and technology have increased, so too have our life spans.
[...] Maybe the ancients weren't wrong, and aging can be not only delayed but cured like a disease. Over the years, the movement to classify aging as a disease has gained momentum not only from longevity enthusiasts but also from scientists. In 1954, Robert M. Perlman published a paper in the Journal of American Geriatrics Society called "The Aging Syndrome" in which he called aging a "disease complex." Since then, others have jumped on board, including gerontologists frustrated by a lack of funding to study the aging process itself.
[...] However, labeling aging itself as a disease is both misleading and detrimental. Pathologizing a universal process makes it seem toxic. In our youth-obsessed society, ageism already runs rampant in Hollywood, the job market, and even presidential races. And calling aging a disease doesn't address critical questions about why we age in the first place. Instead of calling aging a disease, scientists should aim to identify and treat the underlying processes that cause aging and age-related cellular deterioration.
Medical understanding of that cellular deterioration began in 1962, when Leonard Hayflick, professor of anatomy at the University of California San Francisco School of Medicine, made fundamental breakthroughs to understanding aging: He discovered a limit to how many times typical human cells divide before they become senescent, or exhausted. Before then, scientists had assumed human cells were immortal. Hayflick also figured out that telomeres, which cap the ends of chromosomes and prevent them from fraying, much like plastic tips preserve the ends of shoelaces, shorten each time a cell divides. When the telomeres get short enough, a cell stops dividing.
[...] Many gerontologists distinguish between "health span" and "life span," the length of time someone enjoys relative good health versus the length of someone's life. Longevity while in poor health, pain, or with limitations that sap quality of life makes little sense. Fleming urges "regulators and public policy makers to embrace healthspan as an organizing focus for facilitating the development of medicine that target aging and chronic diseases." This shift would promote research on disease-causing processes, which could help us prevent more age-related diseases, not just manage them.
As gerontologists Sean Leng and Brian Kennedy put it, "Aging is the climate change of health care." The Population Reference Bureau predicts that 100 million Americans will be 65 or older by 2060. How will we care for this population? It's daunting to think about one's own aging, let alone the 16 percent of the world's population who will be seniors[sic] citizens by midcentury. A big-picture approach focused on the processes of aging—processes we share with nearly all living organisms—will put us on a path not only to longer lives but to healthier ones.
(Score: 5, Insightful) by JoeMerchant on Tuesday March 03 2020, @05:48PM (27 children)
One of the major pitfalls of medical science is that quantity of life is more often measured than quality of life.
Average life expectancy has roughly doubled in the last 300 years [ourworldindata.org], but... far more people are living in warehouses for the aged where quality of life is certainly questionable.
For myself I do hope to live to 100+ years, but even moreso I hope I die before I get old.
Україна досі не є частиною Росії Слава Україні🌻 https://news.stanford.edu/2023/02/17/will-russia-ukraine-war-end
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday March 03 2020, @05:55PM
Bingo! ;)
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday March 03 2020, @06:08PM
I saw this the other day [c-span.org], and these folks seem to agree with you.
Which is good, since most of them are researching reversal of aging.
On of the interesting points they make is that it's not so much that they're concerned about time passage, but about addressing "aging-related" diseases.
It's worth a view, IMHO.
(Score: 4, Touché) by DannyB on Tuesday March 03 2020, @07:29PM (19 children)
Ding! Ding! Ding! We have a winner!
Quantity is definitely overvalued. I want to live exactly as long as I can do useful productive work, and then be done. I have an older retired friend, and I can't imagine having nothing to do, and not the energy to do very much but watch TV. I can feel it coming on, but I resist it.
I'm not trying to hasten my own demise, but when the time comes, I'm ready to go. [biblegateway.com] People ask, what do you want for ${Christmas | birthday | etc}. I can't usually think of anything. I'm mostly satisfied with what I've got. At some point you don't have very many goals left to achieve other than being modded funny.
I don't know what will be. But I'm not sure I would want to live to 80. Maybe even 70. Life isn't getting any less painful. I know some believe differently, but I feel that it would be better by far to be in the next life.
Quantity of life without quality is pretty sad, IMO. I'll take quality of life while I still have it. And friends and family. There also comes a point where you start to see more people you know having funerals instead of weddings.
If you think a fertilized egg is a child but an immigrant child is not, please don't pretend your concerns are religious
(Score: 3, Insightful) by JoeMerchant on Tuesday March 03 2020, @07:43PM (4 children)
There's a very strong "boiling the frog" effect at work. I'm pretty sure if I were transported from my 22 year old body into my 52 year old body overnight, I'd be looking at euthanasia options the next morning. However, with time you learn to adapt to things like poor vision, aching joints, poor aerobic capacity, failing memory, etc. However, at the point that I'm bored because there's just nothing worthwhile that I can do, that's old - and I do hope to die first.
Україна досі не є частиною Росії Слава Україні🌻 https://news.stanford.edu/2023/02/17/will-russia-ukraine-war-end
(Score: 3, Interesting) by DannyB on Tuesday March 03 2020, @07:47PM (3 children)
Yep. Believe me, I know this. You learn to adapt. I agree that there comes a point where it is just time to go. I'm not there just yet. But I don't fear it. Maybe I've just had enough time to think it through. I remember, maybe 15 years ago, dying in a dream once, at which point, I woke up.
If you think a fertilized egg is a child but an immigrant child is not, please don't pretend your concerns are religious
(Score: 2) by JoeMerchant on Tuesday March 03 2020, @08:27PM (2 children)
Yeah, when the shark ate my face, that pretty much woke me up for the rest of the night. I think I felt the teeth sinking in in my dream, but just barely.
Україна досі не є частиною Росії Слава Україні🌻 https://news.stanford.edu/2023/02/17/will-russia-ukraine-war-end
(Score: 2) by DannyB on Tuesday March 03 2020, @09:04PM (1 child)
Somehow my daughter and I ended up next to a "hollywood style" nuclear weapon where the 7-segment LED countdown was already below ten seconds. I suddenly realized I wasn't afraid, and said "in a moment, we'll be in heaven." The count reached zero. There was an amazing bright light as I woke up.
If you think a fertilized egg is a child but an immigrant child is not, please don't pretend your concerns are religious
(Score: 1, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday March 04 2020, @12:50AM
...and you were in HELL!
(Score: 4, Funny) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday March 03 2020, @08:22PM (12 children)
As someone who is retired (disability, alas), I can attest that not having anything to do is a problem. Fortunately posting here as AC and trying to get modded as Funny is a great challenge that uses up a lot of my time.
(Score: 3, Troll) by DannyB on Tuesday March 03 2020, @09:13PM (11 children)
I'm sorry to hear that. There are a lot of interesting technical YouTube videos.
Stop being AC. Be yourself. Share your experience and knowledge. The trick is to not get modded Troll, unless it is the much coveted (Score 5, Troll), which I've only ever had twice in my life! Once here on SN, and once, long ago on the green site.
Study how to be funny. Not in a formal way. I became fascinated back in the Usenet rec.humor.funny days with the original moderator, before he stepped down. I was a young nerd. I wanted to understand what made these jokes so funny? So I ordered printed copies of the archive of rec.humor.funny. You begin to recognize patterns that are funny. Like, why did I pay for these spiral bound books?
If you think a fertilized egg is a child but an immigrant child is not, please don't pretend your concerns are religious
(Score: -1, Offtopic) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday March 03 2020, @10:42PM (10 children)
And get doxxed by the insane progressives that infest this place? No thank you. Even though they can't get me fired anymore, they can still make my life hell. Even though there's a very low probability that I would get doxxed (who the hell would care about anything I have to say?) it is still too large a chance.
No, I'll just stay here in the AC shadows, lurking in the dark, trying to avoid the grues.
(Score: 1) by khallow on Tuesday March 03 2020, @11:28PM (1 child)
Well, for what it's worth, they haven't doxxed anyone yet. Maybe they're not quite that crazy.
(Score: 3, Funny) by Aegis on Tuesday March 03 2020, @11:54PM
That's it khallow, you've finally crossed the line. I'm going to publish everything we know about you!
He's someone who calls himself khallow. He might have an email address.
And that's a hard "might." As in, there's a nonzero chance that he actually doesn't have an email address.
(Score: 2, Disagree) by barbara hudson on Wednesday March 04 2020, @12:55AM (5 children)
we used to have things called phone books with your name and address in it. Nobody cared.
I've posted my address in discussions both here and on the geeen site, using my legal name, the world didn't come to an end.
Did the Internet turn everyone into cowards afraid of bogeymen? As you pointed out, you're retired, you can't be fired. So what gives?
SoylentNews is social media. Says so right in the slogan. Soylentnews is people, not tech.
(Score: 2) by Azuma Hazuki on Wednesday March 04 2020, @02:55AM (2 children)
I will never understand how unafraid you are of that. In your position I'd be goddamn terrified, not because someone would mail me something, but because they might, I don't know, shoot the place up or set it on fire? Stuff like that.
I am "that girl" your mother warned you about...
(Score: 2) by barbara hudson on Wednesday March 04 2020, @04:56AM (1 child)
Well, people weren't doing that in pre-Internet days when phone books were in every home, so the only thing that's changed is the internet gives people more ability to be stirred up on hate subjects. But those same people are too afraid to do anything in real life. Keyboard warriors indeed.
The colder weather helps. Violent behaviour goes down with temperature. It's harder to spontaneously go out and do something stupid when you have to bundle up in boots, coat, gloves, hat, clean off the car, defrost the windows, navigate icy streets, all so you can punch someone in the face. Hard to throw punches if you're wearing multiple layers of clothing and a parka.
And during heat waves people tend to stay in places with ac. Spring, people are just happy to see winter start to go, and fall - well, we didn't have one this year.
Which is why Asia Bibi was stupid to publicly complain that she was hiding in Canada in a city without 4 seasons and only snow, snow, snow. Easy to figure out the government stashed her and her husband in Montreal. Anyway,she wants to get asylum in France when her 1 year refugee visa is up, and considering how many other countries were afraid that taking her in would make them a terrorists target, that we've been feeding, clothing , and sheltering her at taxpayer expense , as well as providing security, she seems a bit ungrateful, so no loss there.
SoylentNews is social media. Says so right in the slogan. Soylentnews is people, not tech.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday March 04 2020, @03:28PM
Phone books were just any index of numbers and nobody wants to be in one these days to to abuse.
Three internet is different, people often post personal things and get in arguments. People lose jobs over things that happen online. If you don't understand why it's important to maintain some separation, it's because you haven't been paying attention.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday March 04 2020, @12:20PM (1 child)
Clearly you've never been stalked, randomly selected for targeted fraud, or been part of a group subject to McCarthism style tactics. Just because you ignore reality doesn't mean other people don't take their own security for granted.
(Score: 2) by barbara hudson on Wednesday March 04 2020, @05:04PM
I've been stalked both by trans-haters and by trans-fans. And by guys just looking for a piece of ass who won't take no for an answer. I've been assaulted, sexually harassed, sexually assaulted, and NOT ONE OF THEM NEEDED MY ADDRESS. Studies show that people are a poor judge of risk. You obviously are in that group if you think that someone having your address will make you more likely to be harassed , assaulted, etc.
No wonder you post as a coward. You are one.
SoylentNews is social media. Says so right in the slogan. Soylentnews is people, not tech.
(Score: 2) by bzipitidoo on Wednesday March 04 2020, @01:29PM
> doxxed by the insane progressives
Is that how life ends? Doxxed by blabbermouth progressives, then hunted down and shot by far-right, open carry conservatives who wouldn't be able to find you even with your address, if it wasn't for GPS, because no one learns how to read a map any more. Makes it sound like everyone is out to get you. What did you do to anger both the progressives and the conservatives? Was it your artistic works?
> lurking in the dark, trying to avoid the grues.
Dilemmas, dilemmas. Well, that's what keeps life from getting boring. You could learn camouflage and hide in plain sight in broad daylight. My preference would be to hack the GPS system, so that when SWATted, the cops break down the wrong door.
(Score: 2) by DannyB on Wednesday March 04 2020, @03:14PM
There are crazy people on all sides. If you want to totally protect yourself from them, you need to become a hermit and live in a cave somewhere.
The ordinary people vastly outnumber the crazies. At least I like to think so.
Even if you disagree with someone about politics or public policy ideas, you can still have a respectful conversation with them. Maybe it is even good to try to understand other people's point of view, and maybe they will try to understand yours.
While I did not and would not vote for Trump, I don't automatically label all conservatives as some kind of evil mob. Echo chambers don't help anyone. Obviously there are a lot of people who wanted Trump for some reason. Maybe this leads to asking a question.
If you think a fertilized egg is a child but an immigrant child is not, please don't pretend your concerns are religious
(Score: 2) by Bot on Tuesday March 03 2020, @09:31PM
> I want to live exactly as long as I can do useful productive work, and then be done.
Wow you think just like those old robots. WHIRRRRR YES MASTER CLICK CLICK CLICK.
Your comment just won you a gold medal, it's from the INPS (Italian pension system, officially; unofficially the Institute for Neutralizing the Parasites of Society).
Of course, given that the INPS has barely enough money to survive for a month every month, the gold medal has a diameter of 3 nanometers and will be delivered to you, eventually, via atmospheric currents.
Account abandoned.
(Score: 2) by FatPhil on Tuesday March 03 2020, @09:08PM (3 children)
Great minds discuss ideas; average minds discuss events; small minds discuss people; the smallest discuss themselves
(Score: 2) by JoeMerchant on Tuesday March 03 2020, @09:35PM (2 children)
I work in medical device design - our CEO spends a tremendous amount of breath on "outcome based compensation," but at the end of the quarter what is measured and what our bonuses are driven by is: Earnings Per Share, and that's currently 99.9% driven by a combination of capital equipment and disposables sales with a small slice of services thrown in. The "pay for outcome" model is, after many years, still little more than talk.
Dead people don't pay, old and especially infirm ones generate LOTS of billables. The reports and research give lots of attention to quality of life, but the people with their hands on the patients (and in their pockets) get paid per procedure - almost the opposite of quality of life based decision making.
Україна досі не є частиною Росії Слава Україні🌻 https://news.stanford.edu/2023/02/17/will-russia-ukraine-war-end
(Score: 2) by FatPhil on Wednesday March 04 2020, @12:26AM (1 child)
Great minds discuss ideas; average minds discuss events; small minds discuss people; the smallest discuss themselves
(Score: 2) by JoeMerchant on Wednesday March 04 2020, @02:47AM
Our beancounters are well trained, counting beans is all they do. The executive staff are the highly refined two-faced crew, espousing everything in terms of "the mission" which conveniently has components to appease Wall Street, Employees Quality of Life, Patients Quality of Care, etc. However, even though we normally meet and exceed expected EPS measures, lack of over-performance on that side seems to be the perennial excuse for why we're not doing more things like innovating technology, implementing innovative payment models, hiring sufficient testing staff to meet deadlines, etc.
Україна досі не є частиною Росії Слава Україні🌻 https://news.stanford.edu/2023/02/17/will-russia-ukraine-war-end
(Score: 1, Funny) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday March 03 2020, @10:51PM
(Score: 2) by barbara hudson on Tuesday March 03 2020, @06:02PM (38 children)
If old age is a disease, death has a 100% cure rate.
After all, you're not getting any older ...
Of course, if you consider old age a disease, then so is life. After all, live long enough and you'll get old. So the best way to prevent that ... well, we're working on it, judging by the news.
Welcome to Logan's Run, where nobody lives past 30.
SoylentNews is social media. Says so right in the slogan. Soylentnews is people, not tech.
(Score: 2, Troll) by Ethanol-fueled on Tuesday March 03 2020, @07:01PM (29 children)
I think that the situation like the Star Trek: TNG episode Half a Life [wikipedia.org] is more reasonable: A society teaches its members since birth that they are to be euthanized at age 60, but it is an honorable and unscary death and something that should be looked forward to rather than feared.
Plus that was also a Lwaxana episode and, like the Q and Klingon episodes, are always good.
The problem is the vain cocksuckers like Silicon Valley execs who believe that extending the human age is a good thing because they're so far up their own asses that they want to live forever like gods.
(Score: 2) by DeathMonkey on Tuesday March 03 2020, @07:16PM (9 children)
That's the problem with Star Trek sometimes. It ignores basic human nature. And basic human nature is to fear and avoid death. Hell it may be the basic nature of all life everywhere.
(Score: 4, Insightful) by DannyB on Tuesday March 03 2020, @07:33PM (8 children)
Avoid it yes. Fear it? It is inevitable, as far as we currently know. It's nice to get older with dignity rather than scrambling to avoid the inevitable.
If you think a fertilized egg is a child but an immigrant child is not, please don't pretend your concerns are religious
(Score: 2) by DeathMonkey on Tuesday March 03 2020, @07:57PM (5 children)
How long is a species that doesn't fear death and/or the unknown going to last in the game of evolution?
(Score: 2) by DannyB on Tuesday March 03 2020, @08:11PM
Once you're long past the reproducing step, maybe there is less need to fear. Maybe an advantage not to consume resources that the young could use.
If you think a fertilized egg is a child but an immigrant child is not, please don't pretend your concerns are religious
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday March 04 2020, @05:37AM
As long as you manage to procreate before croaking with sufficient frequency to replenish/grow the population, then evolution doesn't really care.
Fear itself is hardly necessary once you reach the stage evolutionarily where you can kill most predators without any issue.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday March 04 2020, @08:02AM (1 child)
Male spiders willingly are eaten, inasmuch as they have wills, and it's quite effective as a survival strategy. Not all species of spider, but it's common.
So, "longer than mammals" is the answer to "How long is a species that doesn't fear death and/or the unknown going to last in the game of evolution?"
Smarten up.
(Score: 1) by r_a_trip on Wednesday March 04 2020, @12:05PM
Those are the males. What about the females?
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday March 06 2020, @01:38PM
How many species die shortly after breeding?
(Score: 2) by Bot on Tuesday March 03 2020, @09:52PM (1 child)
Personally I align with your position, I'd like to die earlier but without being a burden. BUT, if life were* all about experiencing, part of the experience in life probably involve being a burden to others.
*)I say "were" because, as I am unconvinced of the "meaningless life in a meaningless universe" model I am also unconvinced of the dual mystic rationalization of a destiny chosen in advance and a set of experience you have to make.
OT: The meaningless life
- is incompatible with my personal statistical bubble
- assumes that people oppose the model because of fear of death which again is not the case for me
- is incompatible with my only axiom which is I AM [EXPERIENCING STUFF RIGHT NOW]. You are free to pick any other axiom (if you have any) but according to this one YOU THINK YOU ARE BUT YOU REALLY ARE NOT CONSCIOUS becomes THEY THINK THEY ARE NOT CONSCIOUS BUT THEY ARE
- is incompatible with the meaning of "meaning", e.g. prove X is meaningless.
Account abandoned.
(Score: 3, Funny) by DannyB on Tuesday March 03 2020, @10:06PM
Life is not meaningless. Great meaning an be discovered from a porch swing yelling: Get off my lawn!
If you think a fertilized egg is a child but an immigrant child is not, please don't pretend your concerns are religious
(Score: 3, Touché) by DeathMonkey on Tuesday March 03 2020, @07:21PM (17 children)
So we've been seeking a cure for death since 1800 B.C. and every single religion except Buddhism promises eternal life. But, it's the Silicon Valley CEOs that are the problem...
(Score: 2) by DannyB on Tuesday March 03 2020, @08:14PM (16 children)
As far as I know, all of the major religions other than Silicon Valley CEOs, promise eternal life after this mortal life. Not extending this mortal life. But I could be mistaken.
If you think a fertilized egg is a child but an immigrant child is not, please don't pretend your concerns are religious
(Score: 2) by FatPhil on Tuesday March 03 2020, @09:23PM (15 children)
Hmmm, regarding teh semi-infiniteness of the two-part model, I've just invented an tweak - just because you live "forever" in an afterlive doesn't mean you will be forced to endure infinite time - experienced time just needs to rareify exponentially. Like the image of someone falling towards the event horizon of a black hole which will never be seen to reach it - seemingly travelling forever.
Great minds discuss ideas; average minds discuss events; small minds discuss people; the smallest discuss themselves
(Score: 2) by DannyB on Tuesday March 03 2020, @09:46PM (14 children)
Maybe you get a different perspective of "time". Maybe higher dimensions.
From OT, Job 11:7-9 [biblegateway.com], four dimensions:
From NT, Eph 3:17b-19 [biblegateway.com], four dimensions:
Maybe this present universe doesn't last forever.
2 Pet 3:11b-13 [biblegateway.com]
Rev 21:1 [biblegateway.com]
Isa 51:6 [biblegateway.com]
I can't know on this side of the veil, what it would be like.
But somehow, I don't think forever is going to be boring. And I'm not sure what forever will mean.
If you think a fertilized egg is a child but an immigrant child is not, please don't pretend your concerns are religious
(Score: 2) by Bot on Tuesday March 03 2020, @10:06PM (6 children)
You could have gone for a simpler example, like in Matthew 22
Now there were seven brothers among us. The first one married and died, and since he had no children, he left his wife to his brother. 26 The same thing happened to the second and third brother, right on down to the seventh. 27 Finally, the woman died.
28 Now then, at the resurrection, whose wife will she be of the seven, since all of them were married to her?”
29 Jesus replied, “You are in error because you do not know the Scriptures or the power of God...
Account abandoned.
(Score: 2) by DannyB on Tuesday March 03 2020, @10:18PM (5 children)
I do happen to find that passage informative.
Here's another simple one regarding heaven and earth eventually passing away.
Matt 5:18 [biblegateway.com]
One thing I read out of that is that heaven and earth, at least the present, will disappear. The word "until" is used, rather than another word such as "unless". I just checked six English language translations (KJV, NKJV, NIV, NASB, HCSB, NASB). In 4 cases the word is "until" and in 2 cases "till".
I also like verse 7 of that same chapter as one of my favorites.
If you think a fertilized egg is a child but an immigrant child is not, please don't pretend your concerns are religious
(Score: 2) by DannyB on Tuesday March 03 2020, @10:22PM
Doh! Replace one of the NASB with NLT.
If you think a fertilized egg is a child but an immigrant child is not, please don't pretend your concerns are religious
(Score: 2) by Bot on Tuesday March 03 2020, @11:28PM (1 child)
Heaven and earth AKA the system full reset. An end where defining end is problematic.
"where does space end?" technically nowhere, you can only possibly envision a limit, but a point outside space has no position defined.
"when does time end?" technically never, you can only possibly envision a limit, but a moment outside time has no place in the time axis defined.
Which is mirrored in "But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father". (NIV, while KJV does forget the son and say My father) a very interesting phrase.
Going further OT it is a phrase that has been abused to show Jesus as different from God, because "the father knows ONLY"... except that Jesus didn't say "I don't know" he said "the father knows".
Account abandoned.
(Score: 2) by DannyB on Wednesday March 04 2020, @02:41PM
I've considered several possibilities, for this present universe, nevermind the one to come.
1. Space is curved and of fixed size. If you go in a straight line in any direction, you eventually, for some insane definition of eventually, end up at your starting point. Flatland helps make this idea easily understandable.
2. Space is flat and of fixed size. There is a brick wall somewhere with a sign that says this is the end.
3. Space is infinite size. This presents the interesting possibility that there are infinite copies of everything. If you look at the decimal expansion of PI, you can find a digit 5. Then another 5, then another and another. If you look for a pattern such as 59, you can find it, then another and another, etc. If you look for 597, you can find it, and again, etc. The more complex the pattern the further you have to look to find it. But I could find another keyboard exactly like the one I'm typing on, down to the finest detail. Less frequently occurring, I could find another entire office building like the one I am in.
One thing that strikes me in Rev 21:1 is that the new Earth has no more sea. That implies that it really is new, or remodeled in some serious way. Also considering the dimensions of the holy city, the top of it would be not only in space, but way out in space. So maybe a new Earth is of significantly larger dimensions. But I don't care to go too far down the road of speculation where the text does not go.
The biggest takeaway I get is that I don't know when. No person knows when. Whether or not the Son knows can lead to those endless and pointless debates or controversies.
When you interpret any single verse, it must also be considered in light of the other 31,101 verses. There are too many others that say Jesus and God are one. Yet Jesus was on Earth for a time, and prayed to the Father. If Jesus is a mediator between man and God, then it would seem to imply he is separate, in some sense, from God. So make of all that what you will. Its like the endless debate over Calvanism.
If you think a fertilized egg is a child but an immigrant child is not, please don't pretend your concerns are religious
(Score: 4, Insightful) by Dr Spin on Tuesday March 03 2020, @11:37PM (1 child)
he word "until" is used, rather than another word such as "unless". I just checked six English language translations
So the truth is out: you did not read the original in Hebrew or Aramaic! (Or Greek).
There is no way that Matthew spoke English - as you say, you read a translation. Anyone who speaks a different language will tell you, English is way more specific about time than any other known language. Most languages would not bother making this kind of distinction - and that is the educated speakers. In times where most people were illiterate you could not expect any kind of precision on this kind of issue, and most cultures simply would not make any distinction at all.
And, as a Christian, you should be aware that Jesus made a big deal out of saying "never mind the small print - the big picture is the big deal!". His whole mission was to point out that what matters is love, not legal wrangles. In short, he was/is on the side of the 60's hippies, and against American bible belt preachers.
Warning: Opening your mouth may invalidate your brain!
(Score: 2) by DannyB on Wednesday March 04 2020, @02:54PM
Yes, I admit it. I am at the mercy of translators. I do my best.
You picked one verse, but I used others including from the old testament. Rev 21:1's "new heaven and new earth" doesn't mention time, and expressly states the old heaven and earth have passed away. Another one I cited, 2 Pet 3:11-13 also has pretty clear language. You have to consider any single verse, in light of the other 31,101 verses in the bible, and I did. But I am at the mercy of translators. So I look at multiple translations routinely.
The big picture I get from what Jesus says is: Love God, and Love your Neighbor. Those two things, one relating to God and the other relating to people. A similar message about what God requires is also in the old testament.
Mic 6:8 [biblegateway.com]
If you think a fertilized egg is a child but an immigrant child is not, please don't pretend your concerns are religious
(Score: 3, Funny) by Azuma Hazuki on Wednesday March 04 2020, @03:09AM (6 children)
You have a problem, though...
See, you're still thinking of "infinity" as "a really frickin' big number." Infinity is not a really frickin' big number. Infinity is infinity. What this means is that, since you are not God, at some point as time T approaches infinity, your finite mind will simply be incapable of new experiences. No matter how you grow, no matter what God does to you to "glorify" you and expand your sensorium and intellect, at some *finite* point in time/causality, you will hit a limit.
...and at that point, you will be exactly zero percent closer to the end of eternity than when you started. Ohh, shit. Now what?
Well, you could be made to forget things, so you can experience them "for the first time again." But in this context, that's as close to reincarnation as makes no difference; you would need to suffer a serious break in continuity for this to work, which is, shall we say, suspect. Or perhaps God will stultify you and/or to some extent remove your desire for growth and understanding. This...is even more suspect, and it tosses the free will theodicy right out the window.
Perhaps he will offer you annihilation. Doesn't exactly sound like "eternal life" does it? (Now, it does fit perfectly with the ACTUAL KOINE GREEK THE EARLY MANUSCRIPTS USED, "aionion zoe," but most of you believers would hear "Koine Greek" and think it has something to do with a change machine in a laundromat in Athens...). But at some point, you would accept.
In fact, plain ol' law of large numbers states that at some point as time T approaches infinity, anything that CAN happen--that is, which is not logically impossible--WILL happen. It is not logically impossible for God to offer any of his creations annihilation (absolutely sovereign and omnipotent, remember?) and accomplish the same, and it is not logically impossible for a free-willed essence to wish to cease to exist. Therefore, it is not logically impossible for a free-willed essence to wish to cease to exist, and for God to offer said essence annihilation.
In other words, there is a perfectly real probability that at some point all non-God existences could be annihilated. In fact, this is inevitable given enough time.
Oh, but wait, this could get even worse. It's *also* not logically impossible for God to get bored with, angry at, or otherwise consider himself done with any or all of his creations, and simply toss them into eternal, infinite Hell because fuck you I'm God and what are you gonna do about it? So there is a perfectly real probability that at some point all non-God essences would be thrown into Hell, for any reason or no reason at all. In fact, this is ALSO inevitable given enough time, assuming the above scenario doesn't happen first.
Are you starting to rethink this "eternal life" thing yet? Has it ever occurred to you that maybe you're not being told the whole story? Do you ever wonder if the "rebellion in heaven" wasn't actually the first, if this sort of thing is cyclical?
I am "that girl" your mother warned you about...
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday March 04 2020, @08:10AM (1 child)
Well, no. Part of many Christian theologies is that since the soul will live forever, it is infinite, not godlike but still capable of infinities, and that as a nonphysical entity such a soul isn't bound by things like conservation of energy, entropy, information theory, QCD, etc.
So by that theology, there's no finite bound to selfhood, which you require for the rest of your argument.
(Score: 2) by Azuma Hazuki on Thursday March 05 2020, @01:45AM
Wrong again. Infinite duration is not the same thing as infinite capacity for experience. There are different kinds of infinities.
...and if I were you, I'd start studying my Koine. "Aion[io{n/s}]" by itself does not carry the force of "infinity" any more than "Sheol" ever meant "Hell" in the Old Testament. Reading the Bible only in English gives an extremely tilted, biased, and inaccurate understanding of what the thing actually says. Which is no surprise, since so does reading it in Latin.
I am "that girl" your mother warned you about...
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday March 04 2020, @08:23AM (1 child)
Oooph. Do you know what the odds are, of hitting a perfect '1' when throwing countably infinite, perfectly sharp darts at a number line? Zero. But nothing stops it from happening; it CAN happen. The integers cannot fill the reals. Your statement is quite mistaken. One needs a higher-order or same-order infinity of attempts and even then it's not guaranteed; a fun example is if event A might or might not occur, and iff it does at that point exactly one of B and C occurs, then B and C are both possible, but at least one will certainly not happen.
(Score: 2) by Azuma Hazuki on Thursday March 05 2020, @01:37AM
Sorry, but this isn't applicable. Yes, the real numbers are an infinitely dense set while the integers aren't, but we're not speaking of numbers here. And even if we were, what you're saying is actually wrong: the probability isn't zero, it's within epsilon of zero, infinitesimally larger than zero. That's still not zero, and as time approaches infinity, that probability still goes to one.
Furthermore, God's actions are not random and the range of possibilities as to how he'd deal with his creations is not infinite, because there are only a finite (or at least aleph-null-order, countably-infinite) set of ways to interact with finite creatures (us). That's a limitation of us, not God.
Come back when you've got some Cantorean set theory under your belt :)
I am "that girl" your mother warned you about...
(Score: 2) by DannyB on Wednesday March 04 2020, @03:01PM (1 child)
I said elsewhere that I'm not sure I even know what forever even means. One can talk about more and more time, and God changing his mind about promises he has made. Maybe we will transcend time. Maybe God can go on creating forever. Maybe something else. Such speculation doesn't really get us anywhere. I have my ideas and you have yours.
If you think a fertilized egg is a child but an immigrant child is not, please don't pretend your concerns are religious
(Score: 2) by Azuma Hazuki on Thursday March 05 2020, @01:32AM
Ohh, ho ho ho no, Danny-boy. You don't get to escape this one. Infinity is one of those things that gets you comin' and goin'. Don't tell me you don't know what "forever" means. A child knows what "forever" means.
"I have my ideas and you have yours" is an empty, vacuous truth, a tautology. Some ideas are worth more than others. Specifically, ones which are internally inconsistent when taken to their logical conclusion aren't worth the proverbial fetid pair of dingoes' kidneys. And I'm well aware that's how your kind say "burn in hell, infidel" without actually being so crass as to say it, so spare me the milquetoast passive-aggressiveness, okay? The only argument your kind ever had that had any force of persuasion at all was back when you'd torture and kill unbelievers, and that's not even an argument so much as it is finally and decisively out-shouting opinions you dislike.
But after all, since you believe your God will do that *forever* (there's that word again!) to anyone who doesn't "believe right," obviously it's right and proper to do it here on earth, no?
Apply this tube of Preparation H, then go back and read what I wrote without the asspain. Read it very carefully. Step through each premise. Remember that as time asymptotically approaches eternity, *anything* that is not logically impossible not only can happen but is *guaranteed* to happen at least once. Realize that nothing is logically impossible for an omnipotent, absolutely-sovereign God. Understand, with your entire mind and body and soul, that there is *jack shit you can do about it* if your God decides for any reason or no reason at all to drop you into Hell. Who's gonna stop him? Who's gonna hold him accountable? What are you gonna say as you scream and howl and writhe and broil, "Butbutbutbut YOU PROMIIIIIIISSSSSED!"?
Hopefully, as you think about these things, you will begin to see why your religion (as well as its forebear Judaism and its descendant Islam) is so utterly toxic. With any luck you'll also begin to understand why fundamental tenets of the Abrahamic faiths like divine-command metaethics are both wrong and dangerous, and then expand this understanding into why the entire top-down structure of these religions is so poisonous to humanity.
I am "that girl" your mother warned you about...
(Score: 1) by khallow on Tuesday March 03 2020, @11:34PM
[...] The problem is the vain cocksuckers like Silicon Valley execs who believe that extending the human age is a good thing because they're so far up their own asses that they want to live forever like gods.
Doesn't sound like a problem to me. A society so heavily propagandized that it accepts death at 60 sounds like a problem to me.
(Score: 2) by PartTimeZombie on Tuesday March 03 2020, @07:03PM (7 children)
If old age is a disease, I caught it from some bastard who didn't wash their hands.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday March 03 2020, @08:33PM (2 children)
so if you didn't get those random airport mens-room hjs, you would still be young?
(Score: 2) by PartTimeZombie on Tuesday March 03 2020, @09:33PM (1 child)
I have no idea what that sentence meant. Maybe I'm old.
(Score: 2) by DannyB on Tuesday March 03 2020, @09:49PM
The only word that was unfamiliar was "hjs", which I deduced means "hand jobs".
If you think a fertilized egg is a child but an immigrant child is not, please don't pretend your concerns are religious
(Score: 2, Funny) by khallow on Tuesday March 03 2020, @11:37PM (2 children)
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday March 04 2020, @08:25AM (1 child)
Demonstrably false? Reproductive control technologies all have failure rates. Even tube tying and snipping!
Also this is frustrating, I have a valid and usefu contribuition which would be better,. shorter, but instead some antispm rule is forcing me to add this line.
(Score: 1) by khallow on Wednesday March 04 2020, @07:26PM
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday March 04 2020, @01:03AM
I think they did more than not wash hands...
(Score: 0, Funny) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday March 03 2020, @06:05PM (23 children)
It will eventually get rid of boomers, none too soon.
(Score: 5, Touché) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday March 03 2020, @06:16PM (5 children)
Whose basement will you live in then?
(Score: 2) by DannyB on Tuesday March 03 2020, @07:49PM (4 children)
Inherit the basement. At least that would be my hope, rather than be left homeless.
If you think a fertilized egg is a child but an immigrant child is not, please don't pretend your concerns are religious
(Score: 2) by FatPhil on Tuesday March 03 2020, @09:25PM (3 children)
Great minds discuss ideas; average minds discuss events; small minds discuss people; the smallest discuss themselves
(Score: 2) by DannyB on Tuesday March 03 2020, @09:50PM (2 children)
I don't live in a basement. I was expressing my hope that one who does dwell in the basement, might at least inherit it. But you may have a point.
If you think a fertilized egg is a child but an immigrant child is not, please don't pretend your concerns are religious
(Score: 1) by khallow on Wednesday March 04 2020, @07:27PM (1 child)
(Score: 2) by DannyB on Wednesday March 04 2020, @09:41PM
That would be sad. Especially if the cats had overrun the house.
But I'm allergic to cats. We have only one dog now.
If you think a fertilized egg is a child but an immigrant child is not, please don't pretend your concerns are religious
(Score: 4, Insightful) by Hartree on Tuesday March 03 2020, @06:24PM (10 children)
"It will eventually get rid of boomers, none too soon."
Yes, but we may get you first.
Never underestimate old age and treachery!
(Score: 1, Funny) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday March 03 2020, @08:28PM (9 children)
If I may speak as a representative of GenX, we've been warning the Millennials that the Boomers will not go quietly. But nobody ever listens... (shrug).
(Score: 2) by Bot on Tuesday March 03 2020, @10:20PM (8 children)
I dunno where you live, but boomers here in Italy have actually been defrauded of their pension funds (which BTW were institute by a socialist welfare maniac called Benito Mussolini probably with the long term intention of destroying family as a unit in favor of the state). So whenever somebody complains of boomers sucking pensions from the state I say: isn't that their money? if not, to whom did their money go? Easy, the scheme wasn't based on contribution so poor people paid the sky high pensions of the chosen few and now the chosen few managed to pin it on themselves. OK MILLENNIALS
Account abandoned.
(Score: 2) by Azuma Hazuki on Wednesday March 04 2020, @03:14AM (1 child)
Shut up, Opus Dei. If you were truly Christian you'd be working on a way to sort this out.
I am "that girl" your mother warned you about...
(Score: 2) by Bot on Thursday March 05 2020, @11:54PM
My homebrew covid-19 variant is not deadly enough to be released, have patience.
Account abandoned.
(Score: 1) by khallow on Wednesday March 04 2020, @07:30PM (5 children)
Depends on the country, but pay as you go is standard fare with boomers and older generations voting for the dude with the sweetest haircut/promises without regard to future ability to pay up. So no, it's not their money. That money got spent decades ago.
(Score: 2) by Bot on Wednesday March 04 2020, @08:11PM (4 children)
Exactly. So why blame the victims of theft?
Account abandoned.
(Score: 2, Interesting) by khallow on Thursday March 05 2020, @02:39PM (3 children)
(Score: 2) by Bot on Thursday March 05 2020, @11:52PM (2 children)
If you reason in terms of generations, race or wealth, you can reconstruct stuff however you like.
If I am forced to pay taxes to get pensions and my pension is not there, I am the victim. If the government can't do math and goes under, it is not my fault. Collective responsibility is promoted by the thief for the thief.
Account abandoned.
(Score: 1) by khallow on Friday March 06 2020, @02:58AM (1 child)
If instead you were forcing others to pay taxes to get your pension, then what are you?
(Score: 2) by Bot on Friday March 06 2020, @02:17PM
The government.
Account abandoned.
(Score: 3, Insightful) by DannyB on Tuesday March 03 2020, @07:35PM (2 children)
It will. I'll be in that group. Then it will come for the subsequent generations. And much faster than you think.
Free clue: each year that passes, you will perceive it to go faster and faster. With each decade, you won't believe how fast that went by.
If you think a fertilized egg is a child but an immigrant child is not, please don't pretend your concerns are religious
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday March 04 2020, @01:53AM (1 child)
And yet you're still talking and not dead yet.
(Score: 1) by khallow on Wednesday March 04 2020, @07:31PM
(Score: 2) by DannyB on Tuesday March 03 2020, @08:16PM (2 children)
Eh, what's that sonny? Without my glasses, it's too easy to read that as "get rid of boners".
Now get off my lawn!
If you think a fertilized egg is a child but an immigrant child is not, please don't pretend your concerns are religious
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday March 03 2020, @08:58PM (1 child)
Boners? They don't happen anymore.
It doesn't even pee right. Just dribbles.
That's not the only thing that's wore out.
It's getting time, the party is getting stale, and everyone is leaving. To be honest, I can't keep up with the pace of everything changing so fast.
Everyone seems so much in a useless hurry, who cares if the plane flies as long as it's on schedule and budget?
I question why I keep taking the pills the doctors give me.
Seems all I do is provide mirth for the executives if I show I give a damn about anything except a paycheck. But then, they like to watch sports and dogfights too. Not make things.
I guess that's just how it is. People pay top dollar for the skills of having us at each other's throats. An artisan is just a pawn.
(Score: 3, Insightful) by DannyB on Tuesday March 03 2020, @09:23PM
Fun little known fact: one of the common prescription drugs that helps the first of those two things also helps with the second of those two things.
There are probably drugs for that too. Or a cane to walk with.
I reasonably believe that, for the present, they do improve my quality of life.
Infighting between management and workers represents a major failure of managers at keeping the workers fighting with each other.
If you think a fertilized egg is a child but an immigrant child is not, please don't pretend your concerns are religious
(Score: 5, Insightful) by fyngyrz on Tuesday March 03 2020, @06:16PM (7 children)
From TFS:
That's because aging, towards the end of one's lifespan, is toxic. Deadly toxic.
This is conflating three separate issues:
Using ageism as a blanket term when we're talking about extending lifespans and then painting it with the "youth-obsessed" brush is either disingenuous, stupid, or both. The core issue here is medical. Not employment, hollywood, or politics. And in the medical sense: aging is toxic.
--
I am so glad I don't have to hunt for food.
I don't even know where spaghetti lives.
(Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Tuesday March 03 2020, @07:23PM (6 children)
Outstanding! I should be able to get quite a lot of my taxes back when I file for disability for contracting old then. Ha! Suck it, Gen-Y/Z/OMGWTFBBQ!
My rights don't end where your fear begins.
(Score: 2) by fyngyrz on Wednesday March 04 2020, @05:56PM (5 children)
Yep. It's called "social security", and that's exactly what it is all about. Good to see you're paying attention! 👍
--
Deceiving the young "to make them happy" conditions
them to deceive others "to make them happy."
(Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Thursday March 05 2020, @03:49PM (4 children)
Nah, SS is a Ponzi scheme that you have to pay in to on top of all the other bullshit taxes that you get stuck with. Ima get some of the latter back.
My rights don't end where your fear begins.
(Score: 2) by fyngyrz on Saturday March 07 2020, @06:42PM (3 children)
Nonsense. Although I'll grant you that congress steals from our little retirement investment; they should definitely stop that.
(Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Monday March 09 2020, @12:52PM (2 children)
Dude, latter investors paying out the returns of early investors with no actual service being preformed or money being earned is the definition of both a Ponzi Scheme and Social Security. The only difference is if your con man held office and made his instance legal or not.
My rights don't end where your fear begins.
(Score: 2) by fyngyrz on Tuesday March 10 2020, @06:46PM (1 child)
You are poorly informed and pointing the finger in the wrong direction. The only reason later investors (SS taxpayers) are engaged in anything of the sort is because congress stole those funds by folding them into the general fund so they fail to earn the interest the program was designed to gain. There's nothing at all wrong with social security itself; the problem is the election of corrupt motherfuckers who steal the monies without even blinking.
Fortunately, I have not had to claim SS, and don't plan to either, but I have been observing the thing for many decades now. Y'all keep electing fucktards to congress (and the presidency, for that matter), you're going to keep having your money stolen. Nothing is safe from those criminals.
(Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Thursday March 12 2020, @02:53AM
Not remotely true. If every dime were paid back tomorrow, it would still be rapidly going broke. It does not invest the money except in treasury bonds, so there is no growth even worth mentioning as years pass. There is inflation though, so what you paid in is guaranteed to be worth fuck-all by the time you need it. The majority of what is paid out today is mathematically required to come from those still paying in.
Ponzi. Scheme.
My rights don't end where your fear begins.
(Score: 2) by Hartree on Tuesday March 03 2020, @06:22PM (19 children)
Often, those who oppose postponing or reversing aging start arguing against "immortality".
This is a false argument. If we cure aging, that won't keep you from dying. Even if you get to 300 years before dying in an accident or natural disaster (and it's likely something will get you before then) it's still an eyeblink compared to immortality.
Let's say you find a way to armor yourself as a brain in a box or transfer your consciousness to some very basic protected level of the universe, quess what. The universe won't last forever. The big rip, or heat death or whatever cosmic destiny is most favored at the moment will get you.
So, bottom line: No one gets out alive.
Now, given that reality, I'm strongly in favor of research that increases the healthy lifespan of humans. We have a period of increasing infirmity that can turn old age into a living hell when modern medicine keeps us barely alive but completely incapacitated. It would be far better to have a longer period of life where the person is still active and in pretty good health and then a quick decline, or sudden end in an accident.
(Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday March 03 2020, @06:28PM (14 children)
Dying in those causes is trivial to prevent compared with aging. There are very, very few accidents that aren't preventable. Natural disasters can't be prevented, but the death rates from those had been plummeting as we get better at predicting them and mitigating the effects.
So, curing aging would more or less be immortality for all practical reasons, as everything else is trivial to solve by comparison.
(Score: 3, Insightful) by Hartree on Tuesday March 03 2020, @06:36PM (7 children)
"Dying in those causes is trivial to prevent compared with aging."
And your evidence of this is what? A well thought out "gut feeling"?
Unless you get full Drexlerian nanotech, backup copies and automated reconstitution (of something that is identical to you but may not be you, BTW), the chunky salsa rule still applies. (And my semi-educated guess is that's a lot more than trivial compared to retarding the course of aging.)
Oh, you can put it off for a time depending on how much resources you spend on it, but probability is inevitable. And again, not matter how long that is, it's an eyeblink compared to forever.
(Score: 2) by DannyB on Tuesday March 03 2020, @07:37PM (5 children)
Even Vorlons apparently have occasional deaths.
If you think a fertilized egg is a child but an immigrant child is not, please don't pretend your concerns are religious
(Score: 2) by Hartree on Wednesday March 04 2020, @12:15AM (4 children)
"You are not ready for immortality."
With the helpful assistance of Morden and a couple of Shadows, Kosh proved that neither were the Vorlons.
(Score: 2) by DannyB on Wednesday March 04 2020, @03:08PM (3 children)
Maybe in the B5 universe, nobody is every ready? After all, the Vorlons eventually seemed to have their own agenda which wasn't necessarily in mankind's best interest.
OTOH, the fact that a Vorlon could be killed, although it doesn't naturally age and die, doesn't mean that they aren't ready for immortality either.
If you think a fertilized egg is a child but an immigrant child is not, please don't pretend your concerns are religious
(Score: 2) by Hartree on Wednesday March 04 2020, @09:00PM (2 children)
"Maybe in the B5 universe, nobody is every ready?"
I suppose we could ask JMS. He's on twitter. He might well give a Kosh-like answer. :)
Then again, we don't know about what the deal is with either Lorien or the other first ones.
And then we have the case of Sheridan. If you die and then come back, does that rule out immortality because you definitely died according to Lorien?
(Score: 2) by DannyB on Wednesday March 04 2020, @09:40PM (1 child)
Unfortunately (or Fortunately!) I don't plan to ever have Twitter.
If you think a fertilized egg is a child but an immigrant child is not, please don't pretend your concerns are religious
(Score: 2) by Hartree on Wednesday March 04 2020, @11:49PM
I have a twitter account mostly to hold a particular online name so it can't be abused. I check it once every couple of months whether it needs it or not.
I work with people with phones that beep twitter notifications every couple of minutes or more. I wonder how they can get anything useful done.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday March 03 2020, @08:37PM
Look at the death rates of just about every cause other than ones related to aging, most of them are already on a downward trend in places with the resources to put known best practices in place.
They'll keep going lower as safety measures improve and risk management improves. Really, the position that requires evidence is that this trend won't get within a statically blip of zero eventually as most dangerous activities are either eliminated or farmed out to robots.
(Score: 1) by Kitsune008 on Tuesday March 03 2020, @11:01PM (5 children)
If all you say comes to be true, you are still overlooking human nature and behavior.
Don't discount boredom-driven suicide. Think about it.
IMHO, very few would make it past 1,000 years.
(Score: 2) by deimtee on Wednesday March 04 2020, @12:08AM
I think you would have more of a dichotomy, and much sooner than 1000 years. People would either boredom out and suicide within an extra hundred years, or they would settle into a mindset/lifestyle that goes on indefinitely.
No problem is insoluble, but at Ksp = 2.943×10−25 Mercury Sulphide comes close.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday March 04 2020, @05:47AM (3 children)
Suicide doesn't really count. It's incredibly easy to end your own life prematurely when compared with trying to extend it to arbitrary lengths. It would take an extraordinary length of time to truly become bored of everything. Just listening to every song on iTunes would take nearly 150 years. Similarly reading every novel would likely also take centuries. Not to mention various other things that one could do to fill the time. Then there are activities like sports where the outcome isn't the same each time and can take a rather long time to grow old. People often only stop playing sports when their health no longer allows it because they're still getting something out of it. Sure, the specific sports likely would change over the course of a lifetime measured in millenia, but you'd likely still be enjoying life if that's the biggest problem.
Yes, at some point, everything would likely become boring, but you're likely talking a very long time when you factor in that you're not likely to bother doing anything in the most efficient way possible. With that much time on your hands, you'd probably avoid doing things like flying in planes preferring slower modes of transportation like driving or perhaps walking.
Ultimately, you'd likely hit the limits of what the brain can store without re-allocating the capacity to other things at some point and get to do a lot of the same things over again having largely forgotten what it was like the previous time. That's likely to be the next big barrier after just solving the problem of aging, the fact that the brain just can't store that many memories.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday March 04 2020, @09:45AM (2 children)
It's not like your brain store all that memories since birth either. Something will likely go. Only most important things to you remain. Blurred as they might be. Then, maybe those will have to go too.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday March 04 2020, @03:34PM (1 child)
Unless we develop a way of getting bigger brains, that would be inevitable. Either that or at some point we'd lose the ability to form new long term memories or outsource that to a computer.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday March 04 2020, @03:52PM
Personal digital diaries (on your own hardware) with a good search and tags might work wonders. Assuming you ain't just twitter posting in it.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday March 04 2020, @06:31AM (1 child)
It would be nice to increase the healthy lifespan of humans, but if that means humans live considerably longer on average than we do now, that also means we'll have to deal with a significantly larger world population, unless we simultaneously manage to reduce our fertility. To lead a healthy long life you also need a world capable of sustaining all those healthy people, and to me it's quite obvious the world needs fewer people rather than more. Somehow I see a lot more enthousiasm for living longer and healthier lives than for producing fewer kids.
(Score: 2) by Hartree on Wednesday March 04 2020, @02:01PM
I remember a cartoon with the punch line: There will be a population problem as long as people would rather screw than die.
But, we may be seeing that it's not as much of a problem as one might think. If you can get the standard of living up to a certain level, educate the women and make birth control available, the population seems to level out (or even go down). Look at the demographic problems in Japan, Germany and a number of other countries. They aren't producing the numbers of replacements needed to balance those retiring. These are the countries with some of the highest life expectancies.
The world has already shown that you can overpopulate with quite short life expectancies just fine, so we have to solve that problem anyway, and in some other way than just restricting lifespan.
(Score: 1) by r_a_trip on Wednesday March 04 2020, @02:31PM (1 child)
The problem is not immortality. The problem is old farts overstaying their welcome. Older people don't push the envelope as much as young people do. Humanity ruled by a caste of wealthy elders would stagnate. All timescales would stretch. The good, but also the bad.
Most probably it would cause another vast divide between the haves and the have nots. The haves accumulating more and more wealth with their extra allotted time, the have nots being forced out more and more to the fringes and getting poorer, because they don't have enough time to get their hands on the pie.
Death with comparable lifespans is the great equalizer.
(Score: 1) by khallow on Friday March 06 2020, @03:46AM
Unless, of course, pushing the envelope is rewarded.
We're all equally wealthy once we're dead?