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posted by janrinok on Thursday September 04 2014, @01:31AM   Printer-friendly
from the time-for-a-rethink dept.

Techdirt reports

Two law enforcement agencies will be returning their Mine Resistant Ambush Protected (MRAP) [vehicles] to Uncle Sam, with the announcements arriving almost simultaneously.

Davis, Calif., city officials have directed the police department to return a surplus U.S. military armored vehicle to the federal government after residents, citing images seen during protests in Ferguson, Mo., expressed fears of militarization.

The Davis Police Department now has 60 days to get rid of a $689,000 Mine Resistant Ambush Protected armored vehicle, which police acquired through a U.S. Defense Department program, and must consider other rescue vehicle options.

[...]

Over in San Jose, CA, it's a completely different story. Rather than having an MRAP pried from law enforcement's clutches by city reps, the San Jose Police Department gave it up voluntarily to protect its relationship with the people it serves.

San Jose police spokeswoman Sgt. Heather Randol told KCBS the decision was made based on concerns for potential damage to the department's image and community relationships.

"We want to keep their trust. We don't want them to feel we are going off on another path with our police department," she said. "We want them to feel comfortable about the tools that we use."

 
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  • (Score: 3, Insightful) by LoRdTAW on Thursday September 04 2014, @08:09PM

    by LoRdTAW (3755) on Thursday September 04 2014, @08:09PM (#89483) Journal

    Not once did I mention "Wetbacks" or "Mud People," and of course you're spouting that tired ol' accusation of racism you're attributing to me and using to wrongly censure and discredit anybody who disagrees with you.

    I will admit that I flew off the handle. I apologize. If you thought I was directly calling you racist, that was not the point I was trying to make. But lets be honest with ourselves: The vast majority of the illegal population are from Mexico, Central and South America. A 1996 study[https://www.dhs.gov/xlibrary/assets/statistics/illegal.pdf [dhs.gov]] of illegal immigration reveals that Canada was number 4 in illegals at 120,000 illegals vs 2,700,000 from Mexico, 335,000 from El Salvador and 165,000 from Guatemala. Yet I have not heard of angry mobs banging and shouting at busses of Canadians, militias patrolling the Canadian-american borders or building a fence across it. Plus you never hear anything about all those damn Canadians stealing American jobs. Another group that is guaranteed to be white are the 70,000 Polish illegals. Yet We arent screaming to deport them. Fast forward to 2011 and the numbers are greater: https://www.dhs.gov/sites/default/files/publications/ois_ill_pe_2011.pdf [dhs.gov]. The minute you hear someone complain of illegals and really start to talk to them is when the nasty shit comes out, and it is always directed at "brown people" from south of the border. And some of the people I have spoken to aren't afraid to straight up use terms like mud people, wetbacks and worse. Some were hispanic themselves, Puertorican in fact. But hey they aren't racist. At least that is what they claim. Believe me, racism is a large part of the immigration issues at hand. To flat out write it off as a major factor in the politics of immigration reform is absurd and a misleading.

    And it's simple, really -- people who are not naturalized citizens should be thrown the fuck out. We have plenty of law-enforcement infrastructure we can use to determine immigration status in non-invasive ways like auditing employer records and mandatory citizenship as a condition of employment.

    A war on illegal immigrants will be no more effective than the war on drugs. We can't seem to stop them, they just keep pouring in and they are happily paid next to nothing by American employers. How many more "war on something's" do we need before we have to stop, think and realize it is a losing battle that was never worth it. Auditing records and mandating citizenship for employment will never work. All of that can be easily faked by both employers and employees. More bureaucracy, money spent and red tape that will further snarl businesses with a burden they don't want. Besides, how many small businesses are out there with illegals? Every landscaper and resturant I see in NYC is staffed by people who are obviously Mexican, central or south american. Will the government be able to audit the thousands of businesses in NYC alone? The nation? Doubtful.

    And also consider that there are lobbying groups that support the illegal immigrants. You think everyone is going to quietly sit by and watch millions of people get tossed out for no other reason then some papers?You think they are going to go quietly? And lets not even talk about the untold number of anchor babies who are citizens. Do we toss them out along with their illegal parents? Their numbers are great and they are becoming more than just illegal immigrants, they are a large part of the economic machine and have the power to severely disrupt it. Like I said before, trying to root out and deport them is best described as a war. Food for thought: who is going to drag MILLIONS of people out of the woodwork and pay for their trip home? The Mexicans are easy we just push them across a line we drew in the dirt some time ago. But who buys the plane or boat tickets for the Guatemalans, El Salvadorans, Hondurans, Chinese Filipinos and numerous others? Just picture the logistics of moving over 11.5+ million people back their their countries of origin. And do you think millions of people who are happily making a better future won't fight back? You think it won't become a hot war involving violence? It will bring no good to this nation, divide it even further and push the whole fucking thing right off the cliff. Anyone who spouts "throw them out" and then says that it's easy did not, ever, for one microsecond, think it through. We are well past the point of throw them out. The only smart thing to do is give them what they want, a hearty welcome gift of citizenship and let them return the favor by paying taxes. win-win.

    For every immigrant who does add value there are 20 who have more kids they can support, placing an extreme burden on the school and healthcare systems, and many don't bother to learn English or otherwise adopt our culture and standard of living, so it's just a race to the bottom.

    I am sure the same was said about the Irish, Italians, Germans and other non-wasp Europeans over 100 years ago. Remember "no Irish need apply"? At least they were openly racist and actively trying to prevent their employment. Contrasted with todays American businessmen who are more than happy to pay illegal immigrants next to nothing for long hours and shit pay for grueling work. Meanwhile they vote, donate and lobby the morons in office who are screaming about the illegal problem. Pot meet kettle doesn't even apply here.

    Wages must be raised across both the lower and middle-classes, not just the very bottom.

    I agree. But lets define the two first. Wikipedia lists middle class as the class that exists between the working class and the upper class. The Working class is defined as:
    The working class (also labouring class, proletariat, or laboring class) is the class of people employed for wages, especially in manual or industrial work. Working-class jobs include blue-collar jobs, but also include large amounts of white-collar and service work.
    The middle class is roughly defined as:
    The modern usage of the term "middle class", however, dates to the 1913 UK Registrar-General's report, in which the statistician T.H.C. Stevenson identified the middle class as that falling between the upper class and the working class.[citation needed] Included as belonging to the middle class are professionals, managers, and senior civil servants.
    So here is where the line begins to blur. Many professional jobs can pay less or more than what people in supposed working class jobs are paid. How many STEM jobs are paying college grads 100k+? Yet I know a kid who is 24, high school degree education and a don't give a rats ass attitude making 100k/yr in the bridge painters union, a working class job. The problem is the middle class was redefined at some point and people who are just making enough to live with a little extra consider themselves middle class. Here is a test, go ask someone you know to be working class and ask ask them if they consider themselves middle class or working class. Chances are you will hear middle class. Middle class would be business owners, high paid professionals like doctors, lawyers and managers.

    But before I get sidetracked, an eight-something dollar minimum wage, or as you called it: the bottom, is a large part of the problem. We have people who are willing to work hard. We have a vast pool of workers willing to do shitty work. But because it is shitty work, employers think less of the people who do it and therefore feel justified in paying them next to nothing for it. It must feel real good to work 8+ hours a day flipping burgers, dealing with irate customers and playing robot on the assembly line for 8 bucks an hour. How do you pay rent, buy food and pay bills on 18k/yr? HOW? No wonder the shit is hitting the fan. To add to this the people looking for these jobs are always passed on for illegals who can be paid even less. So not only are they insulted by an 18k/yr wage but no one wants to hire them unless it's a big shitty chain like Taco Bell or Walmart because ICE has them under a microscope. But johnny's pizzeria or carls landscaping can sail right under the radar. There is your fuel on the fire for an upheaval. Some of the biggest businesses in the US pay the least amount of money to their workers: http://www.businessinsider.com/the-20-companies-with-the-most-low-wage-workers-2013-2 [businessinsider.com]. Minimum wage is a huge problem. It creates a class even below working, poverty. At least working class people can make 40-50k/yr. These people can't even afford a pot to piss in.

    So my point here is this: minimum wage must be increased. The 8 something an hour is unlivable. Even 10 an hour is nothing. From experience you need to be making $15+ an hour to not struggle. And if you live in NY you better make 20+. That or you sacrifice your privacy and rent room in a shared apartment to cut down of rent (like my friend did). The low end help at my work (75%of the workers) are paid 10-12 an hour. Most of them are young guys who are still living with parents, fresh out of high school or in college. The older people (30+) who take these jobs are either working another job or share the burden with a spouse. One single 53yo guy, I feel so bad for him, makes 12 bucks an hour here 5 days/8hrs week. On top of that he delivers newspapers 7 days a week between 1 and 6AM. He has almost no life save for taking care of stray cats, movies and the rare trip to the bar and lives in a trailer park. Another kid was struggling working two full time jobs, no days off, mother didn't give a shit if he was alive or dead and father remarried with a new family. So he asks our boss, a distant relative of his, if he could get a dollar raise from 12 to 13 an hour so he could cut his hours on the second job and get sunday off. Bosses reply: "12 dollars is damn good money. You have not proven that you deserve more." Oh but mr boss man has 3/4 million in his retirement fund, tons more in the bank and takes weeks off to entertain his new fuck of the week with his hard earned money that he shows up 5-6 hours a day for. Seriously we open 6:30 and he strolls in 9am and leaves between 2 and 4pm. Oh, and his father built the business, he was a software developer prior to his inheritance. This is the problem with this county, selfish entitled assholes who think they are better than everyone else. Let them walk a mile in their low wage employees shoes for a year and come back and tell me 8 bucks an hour, or even 12 an hour is "good money".

    Nothing is as easy as you think it is.

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