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posted by martyb on Sunday May 17 2020, @04:27AM   Printer-friendly
from the I'm-shocked,-shocked-I-say dept.

U.S. Government Proposed Manipulating CDC Guidelines to Avoid Mask Shortages: Whistleblower:

The U.S. government proposed manipulating information about whether N95 masks worked to fight the spread of coronavirus in the general public, according to Dr. Richard Bright, a whistleblower who testified publicly for the first time on Thursday. The deception was an effort to avoid shortages and keep masks available for U.S. health care workers, but likely had a ripple effect throughout the country, leaving many people to believe that all masks are useless or even harmful during a pandemic. Bright's testimony is the first confirmation from a high-ranking official that the U.S. government actively sought to distribute incorrect information about N95 masks during the covid-19 pandemic.

Dr. Bright told the House Subcommittee on Health on Thursday about his attempts to warn others in the Department of Health and Human Services about the pending shortage of masks in January and early February, just as the novel coronavirus was spreading outside of China. Bright said that officials at the meeting simply said they would change the recommendations put out by the CDC to discourage the general public from buying masks.

"I indicated we know there will be a critical shortage of these supplies. We need to do something to ramp up production," Dr. Bright, the former top vaccine specialist at HHS, said of a meeting with HHS officials on February 7.

"They indicated if we notice there is a shortage, that we will simply change the CDC guidelines to better inform people who should not be wearing those masks, so that would save those masks for our health care workers," Dr. Bright testified.

"My response was, 'I can not believe you can sit and say that with a straight face'," Bright said. "That was absurd."

[...] Dr. Bright's entire 6-hour testimony is available on YouTube, and it's quite damning.


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  • (Score: 0, Disagree) by bradley13 on Sunday May 17 2020, @04:51AM (45 children)

    by bradley13 (3053) Subscriber Badge on Sunday May 17 2020, @04:51AM (#995252) Homepage Journal

    I only read TFS, but I'm not really seeing the problem. Fact is, there is no reason for Joe Sixpack to wear an N95 mask. Discouraging this, in hopes of preventing hoarding makes perfect sense.

    This "whistleblowing" sounds more like sour grapes.

    --
    Everyone is somebody else's weirdo.
    • (Score: 5, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday May 17 2020, @04:58AM (13 children)

      by Anonymous Coward on Sunday May 17 2020, @04:58AM (#995255)

      The cognitive dissonance is strong. Because Joe Sixpack does not want to get Corona is a pretty damn good reason to wear a mask.

      The government trying to take measures to ensure medical workers have enough is one thing, actively lying to society and putting their health at risk is something entirely different - especially in a country where most are naive enough to still think when the government gives medical advise - it can be trusted without question.

      • (Score: 1, Funny) by Ethanol-fueled on Sunday May 17 2020, @05:20AM (8 children)

        by Ethanol-fueled (2792) on Sunday May 17 2020, @05:20AM (#995260) Homepage

        Joe Sixpack, here at least, is past fearmongering bullshit and now believes that "if you're not dead yet, then you don't need no steenkin mask" and I agree with that sentiment.

        • (Score: 4, Touché) by gtomorrow on Sunday May 17 2020, @12:27PM (4 children)

          by gtomorrow (2230) on Sunday May 17 2020, @12:27PM (#995320) Journal

          I can only speak for myself, but I'm willing to bet there's a contingent here that is so happy to hear you say that. I'm (we're) just waiting for you to put your money where your large mouth is.

          Remember to breathe deeply, then convene only with like-minded individuals in some secluded area.

          • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday May 17 2020, @12:58PM (2 children)

            by Anonymous Coward on Sunday May 17 2020, @12:58PM (#995334)

            This comment deserves a standing ovulation.

            • (Score: 1, Funny) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday May 17 2020, @09:38PM (1 child)

              by Anonymous Coward on Sunday May 17 2020, @09:38PM (#995471)

              This comment deserves a standing ovulation.

              Way to discriminate against women who born with testicles, you bigot.

              • (Score: 1, Funny) by Anonymous Coward on Monday May 18 2020, @03:00AM

                by Anonymous Coward on Monday May 18 2020, @03:00AM (#995593)

                Explain that analogy to me like I'm a 4th yr med student.

          • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday May 17 2020, @03:44PM

            by Anonymous Coward on Sunday May 17 2020, @03:44PM (#995381)

            EF doesn't have enough money to do that.

        • (Score: 2) by JoeMerchant on Sunday May 17 2020, @01:56PM

          by JoeMerchant (3937) on Sunday May 17 2020, @01:56PM (#995360)

          I'm with you, and I will note that NOBODY is wearing masks in the liquor stores around here.

          --
          My karma ran over your dogma.
        • (Score: 2) by Nobuddy on Monday May 18 2020, @02:52PM

          by Nobuddy (1626) on Monday May 18 2020, @02:52PM (#995812)

          Thank you for this great example of how this distorted information has fooled idiots in to thinking the pandemic response measures is fearmongering.

        • (Score: 2) by All Your Lawn Are Belong To Us on Monday May 18 2020, @03:20PM

          by All Your Lawn Are Belong To Us (6553) on Monday May 18 2020, @03:20PM (#995841) Journal

          And Joe Sickpack really doesn't care about whom he infects and ends up killing, either, would be my guess. Joe Sixpack also can't do math to calculate what the odds of death are should he with his pristine unexposed lungs gets it, let alone serious complications which may not kill him but make him realize how badly he screwed that call up.

          --
          Keep everyone ignorant of the magical world! KEEP AMERICA OBLIVIATE!
      • (Score: 0, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday May 17 2020, @01:52PM (3 children)

        by Anonymous Coward on Sunday May 17 2020, @01:52PM (#995357)

        Because Joe Sixpack does not want to get Corona is a pretty damn good reason to wear a mask.

        Only if the masks are nominally effective at reducing the risk of exposure. Otherwise, it's just snake oil. Trained professionals (medics) use them because they are confronted with exposure risk every day. For Joe Sixpack, the most likely mode of infection is true the hands and eyes, not the mouth. And guess what: wearing a mask induces one to touch the face more often, thereby increasing the risk of surface-to-hand-to-eye infection.

        The only good reason for Joe Sixpack to wear a mask would be to minimize exposure to others after he has already been infected. But we all know that USians couldn't care less about that.

        • (Score: 5, Insightful) by hemocyanin on Sunday May 17 2020, @03:57PM

          by hemocyanin (186) Subscriber Badge on Sunday May 17 2020, @03:57PM (#995389) Journal

          I get kind of tired of the condescension spewed at the public -- most people are perfectly competent if given adequate information. Most people are not just a gaggle of proles whose only purpose is to gurgle and har-har and serve their better masters.

          The reason the CDC's messaging was ineffective was exactly because people aren't the stupid morons they think they are: "Wearing a mask won't protect you from CV19. We need to make sure medical personnel have masks."

          It doesn't take a genius to read between the lines and for people to conclude that masks are in fact good protection -- if they weren't, medical pros wouldn't need them. It's true they must be worn properly and donned and doffed properly, but the conclusion that masks are good was a logical conclusion and it certainly lead to an increase in the conduct the CDC was trying to avoid -- mask hoarding. In the best case, it lead to the false conclusion that masks are useless. (and you lot think we're the morons??)

          What the CDC should have done is respected citizen's intelligence and said "We have a shortage of masks. Frontline healtcare workers are at greatest risk. We need healthcare workers to keep people alive. Please don't hoard masks. If you have a masks please donate them. If you can make a mask, these [link] materials work best. If you wear a mask, see here [link] for how to use it safely." People are very willing to be helpful and conscientious during a crisis -- until you bury them in bullshit and leave them confused or cynical. And beyond that, how many 100s of millions of our hard earned tax dollars is it legitimate to use to lie and mislead us? Zero dollars, that's how much.

        • (Score: 2) by All Your Lawn Are Belong To Us on Monday May 18 2020, @03:23PM (1 child)

          by All Your Lawn Are Belong To Us (6553) on Monday May 18 2020, @03:23PM (#995845) Journal

          Masks are also used because they are highly effective at preventing someone with the virus from shedding their particles in a way that someone else then readily picks up. The professional is not only concerned with him or herself but also that professional's patients. I do hope my mask protects me, but I know that it is protecting you. But it's much harder to sell that message.

          --
          Keep everyone ignorant of the magical world! KEEP AMERICA OBLIVIATE!
          • (Score: 2) by All Your Lawn Are Belong To Us on Monday May 18 2020, @03:27PM

            by All Your Lawn Are Belong To Us (6553) on Monday May 18 2020, @03:27PM (#995849) Journal

            (Not N95's with relief valves, although they do force any particulates that pass into a much narrower field on exhalation. Regular obscuring masks. But then again, properly fitting and used N95 masks are actually very effective at protection from inhalation....)

            --
            Keep everyone ignorant of the magical world! KEEP AMERICA OBLIVIATE!
    • (Score: 5, Insightful) by RamiK on Sunday May 17 2020, @05:47AM (24 children)

      by RamiK (1813) on Sunday May 17 2020, @05:47AM (#995265)

      Fact is, there is no reason for Joe Sixpack to wear an N95 mask.

      That's not a fact. That's propaganda. The actual fact is that masks prevent much of the virus's spread through breathing and coughing and that the actual risk assessment research looking into it was reviewed by the WHO, the CDC and pretty much every other medical body in the world and they all concluded masks are necessary for the general population, not just the medical personal.

      Discouraging this, in hopes of preventing hoarding makes perfect sense.

      No it doesn't. It makes sense as a last ditch emergency order. Not months in advance of when you have recommendations from multiple professional bodies, both locally and abroad, of what needs be done and can still increase production and stockpile on supplies.

      --
      compiling...
      • (Score: 5, Informative) by DrkShadow on Sunday May 17 2020, @06:32AM (14 children)

        by DrkShadow (1404) on Sunday May 17 2020, @06:32AM (#995274)

        The only point that I'm going to raise:

        The OP said "N95" masks -- not ye 'ole common cloth mask, which will keep droplets from spreading as you say, and is viable for joe six-pack. The common cloth masks are _not_ viable for health care workers, and so there's a clear priority.

        • (Score: 0, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday May 17 2020, @09:14AM

          by Anonymous Coward on Sunday May 17 2020, @09:14AM (#995286)

          The problem is that people really want easy answers. "Yes mask" or "no mask." They don't really care or understand there are different requirements if you are outside, in a store, at the barber, etc. or if there are different requirements there is or isn't community spread or whether they are socially distancing or not or depending on who is wearing it or what they do while wearing it or whether or what stage of infection they are on or what stage of infection those around them are or that there are different types of masks that have different effects on the spread. They want an easy answer to save the mental effort for something more important or impending. They just want a Yes/No or a good/bad.

        • (Score: 4, Interesting) by The Mighty Buzzard on Sunday May 17 2020, @10:47AM (12 children)

          Another relevant factor, have you ever tried to wear an N95 mask while doing anything but sitting absolutely still? My step-mother the RN can only go about half an hour max in one before she gets too lightheaded to safely treat patients. I can only manage about ten minutes in one doing light work at the church (cement and paint dusts aren't at all fun to breathe) but I'm in much worse shape than her and smoke. If they're being worn properly, they simply are not a viable option for Joe's daily wear mask.

          --
          My rights don't end where your fear begins.
          • (Score: 3, Touché) by gtomorrow on Sunday May 17 2020, @12:45PM (3 children)

            by gtomorrow (2230) on Sunday May 17 2020, @12:45PM (#995327) Journal

            My step-mother the RN can only go about half an hour max in one before she gets too lightheaded to safely treat patients.

            Seriously? Your step-mother is a registered nurse who all of a sudden can't work in what is considered standard equipment for her field?! Are you going to tell us now that your cousin the veterinarian is allergic to cats?

            As for you, my friend, I still call bullshit. Nobody says you have to wear the things 24 hours a day (take a smoke break away from people...you'd have done that anyway, COVID or not). Nobody says you have to wear them while working...if you work either alone or respect certain distances and safety regulations. In any case, your example is light construction work. Wouldn't you wear a freaking dust mask anyway or has this aversion to masks appeared only recently?

            I'm not discounting the fact that it's a pain in the ass on many levels but it's neither the insurmountable problem you and many others make it out to be nor is it forever. Jeez, just think if we were at war; what a bunch of crybabies the American public has turned out to be.

            • (Score: 4, Informative) by The Mighty Buzzard on Sunday May 17 2020, @01:12PM (2 children)

              N95 masks are not standard-wear equipment in medicine. They do not use any mask at all without reason and do not use N95 masks except when absolutely necessary. Even right now, nobody in the Mayo network wears an N95 mask unless they are actively treating a confirmed covid-19 case right at that moment. I dunno who's been filling your head with idiotic notions but you need to get yourself informed properly.

              As for me? We had to take angle grinders with steel wire wheels to paint on the basement walls and masonry blades on said grinders to clean out the mortar where it had cracked a bit but not enough to get hydraulic cement in to fix the crack. That's a lot of shit you do not want in your lungs and it's several days worth of having to do it. This does not gel with being unable to work more than ten or fifteen minutes at a time in an N95 mask, so we used masks other than N95 that we could actually breathe in.

              --
              My rights don't end where your fear begins.
              • (Score: 2) by gtomorrow on Sunday May 17 2020, @04:34PM

                by gtomorrow (2230) on Sunday May 17 2020, @04:34PM (#995400) Journal

                Regarding N95 masks not being standard equipment, that's not what Wikipedia says [wikipedia.org], although I see that's not the mask used typically. So consider me semi-corrected and better informed.

                Regarding your mask-covered mug, glad to hear that you are using some kind of mask. My point was working without any mask was a bad idea, especially in your situation.

                In your case maybe a nice rubber halloween mask would better...? I KID I KID! Just stay safe, okay?

              • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday May 17 2020, @06:04PM

                by Anonymous Coward on Sunday May 17 2020, @06:04PM (#995422)

                For long use, a bit of duct tape at the nose helps keep the eye protection clear.

                But, a rubber mask, preferable fed from a pressure source of fresh air is best for long jobs.

          • (Score: 3, Interesting) by JoeMerchant on Sunday May 17 2020, @01:54PM (1 child)

            by JoeMerchant (3937) on Sunday May 17 2020, @01:54PM (#995358)

            Below, some AC cited the reversal of COVID-19 in Austria post mask mandate... I feel that those results are likely more correlation than causation, meaning: the masks aren't the main factor keeping the people safer from infection, it's the behavioral changes that the mask mandate brought about that made the bigger difference. If people have to wear masks in public, they're going to go out in public less, be more "germ conscious" while they are out there, etc.

            It's not that masks don't help, I feel that behavior makes the bigger difference and forcing mask wearing effectively drives the good behavioral changes, at least in Austrians.

            --
            My karma ran over your dogma.
          • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday May 17 2020, @11:03PM (2 children)

            by Anonymous Coward on Sunday May 17 2020, @11:03PM (#995498)

            I call bullshit. Well, I call psychosomatic, inclusive-or bullshit.

            I've used N95 on site for 12h shifts minus food breaks. For thousands and thousands of hours total. The only time they are restrictive is in such particulate-filled air that the mask is pancaked (and discoloured!). That won't happen in day use.

            If you're so out of shape that you can't move without breathing through your mouth, then maybe the issue isn't the N95, but your cardio fitness. If you think you can't breathe enough through an N95 that's not clogged, you're not actually failing to breathe, you're just panicking and putting your body into limbic overdrive, and either imagining it, or self-causing it. If you hyperventilate with an N95 you will also get lightheaded.

            I've used stronger PPE than N95s too (cartridge masks, VO, oil, and non), and they are harder to breathe through than N95s. And guess what? They add a very very small metabolic overhead (slightly more force to draw in air) but less than walking by orders of magnitude.

            Maybe a better perspective: if you can walk while chewing for N minutes, you can walk for N minutes with an N95 on. The added metabolic load is less than chewing.

          • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday May 18 2020, @12:59PM (1 child)

            by Anonymous Coward on Monday May 18 2020, @12:59PM (#995727)

            Another relevant factor, have you ever tried to wear an N95 mask while doing anything but sitting absolutely still? My step-mother the RN can only go about half an hour max in one before she gets too lightheaded to safely treat patients. I can only manage about ten minutes in one doing light work at the church (cement and paint dusts aren't at all fun to breathe) but I'm in much worse shape than her and smoke. If they're being worn properly, they simply are not a viable option for Joe's daily wear mask.

            I wore them outside in the summer while cutting the grass with a walk behind mower. They limit your breathing, but not at such an extreme level as you are stating.

          • (Score: 2) by DeVilla on Tuesday May 19 2020, @04:13AM

            by DeVilla (5354) on Tuesday May 19 2020, @04:13AM (#996168)

            From what I've heard, Joe will probably need to shave or at least trim creatively to get a good seal with an N95.

      • (Score: 2, Troll) by Username on Sunday May 17 2020, @12:41PM (8 children)

        by Username (4557) on Sunday May 17 2020, @12:41PM (#995325)

        Fact is, there is no reason for Joe Sixpack to wear an N95 mask.

        That's not a fact. That's propaganda. The actual fact is that masks prevent much of the virus's spread through breathing and coughing and that the actual risk assessment research looking into it was reviewed by the WHO, the CDC and pretty much every other medical body in the world and they all concluded masks are necessary for the general population, not just the medical personal.

        Well, that's propaganda as well. Social distancing is what stops the spread of the virus. N95 masks do not filter when you exhale, only when you inhale. They are a negative pressure respirator designed to stop workers from breathing in too much sand. The virus will shoot out the sides of it along with your spit. They are not medical masks either, they are industrial masks. Hospitals use a medical grade mask. A single virus can infect you. That spit from the sides of the mask just needs to land on an eye, a fork, wherever. Doesn't even have to be spit, can be the fluid from eyelashes splashing on people, or urine splashes from the restroom. They even found covid19 in semen samples. So it's not very helpful to just to wear a mask without the rest of the PPE, then decontaminate before eating, bathing, urinating etc. Nobody is going to do all that. So the most effective approach is social distancing. Though that's not going to be a good solution either since, according to the WHO, this will come back every year like the flu. My guess, is eventually they will suggest the best thing is to let people get the virus and let them fight it off to build up an immunity instead of being bubble boys.

        So, I have to agree that there is no reason for Joe to think wearing a mask will protect him from covid19, or stop him from giving it to others. But, I do agree Joe should wear a mask if he wants. It doesn't hurt me that Joe does Joe things. I view people wearing mask to prevent covid19 the same way I view people with emotional support animals.

        • (Score: 2) by gtomorrow on Sunday May 17 2020, @12:52PM

          by gtomorrow (2230) on Sunday May 17 2020, @12:52PM (#995330) Journal

          Please see Comment 995320. [soylentnews.org]

        • (Score: 3, Informative) by The Mighty Buzzard on Sunday May 17 2020, @01:18PM (5 children)

          They do in fact catch any viral load being carried by spit particles, which is the primary worry. Shooting out the sides (and having to hit your face to do so) though is still a whole lot better than going directly where you've got your cock-socket pointed.

          --
          My rights don't end where your fear begins.
          • (Score: 2) by Username on Sunday May 17 2020, @03:53PM (3 children)

            by Username (4557) on Sunday May 17 2020, @03:53PM (#995387)

            That's kind of like saying my girlfriend is just a little pregnant since most of my sperm wasn't inside of her.

            • (Score: 1) by zion-fueled on Sunday May 17 2020, @06:16PM (1 child)

              by zion-fueled (8646) on Sunday May 17 2020, @06:16PM (#995423)

              Isn't she more likely to get pregnant with a full load vs some sperm that ended up on her finger? Millions of sperm and only 1 gets in the egg.

              • (Score: 2) by Username on Sunday May 17 2020, @11:44PM

                by Username (4557) on Sunday May 17 2020, @11:44PM (#995510)

                True, but sperm aren't self replicating. Most of your viruses not getting out doesn't help when only one will turn someone covid19 positive. Why would an epidemiologist wear so much gear against covi19 while Joe will get equal protection by just wearing a single mask.

            • (Score: 3, Touché) by The Mighty Buzzard on Sunday May 17 2020, @08:41PM

              No, it's not. Not even kind of. You really, really need to read up on viral contagion. Badly.

              --
              My rights don't end where your fear begins.
          • (Score: 3, Funny) by krishnoid on Monday May 18 2020, @02:40AM

            by krishnoid (1156) on Monday May 18 2020, @02:40AM (#995587)

            I learned a new euphemism today! +1 Informative :-)

        • (Score: 3, Touché) by krishnoid on Monday May 18 2020, @02:50AM

          by krishnoid (1156) on Monday May 18 2020, @02:50AM (#995592)

          My guess, is eventually they will suggest the best thing is to let people get the virus and let them fight it off to build up an immunity instead of being bubble boys.

          Funny enough, being stuck in one spot has meant disinterring a lot of ancient crud doing a lot of deferred cleaning, and tooling around on the ground in the back yard. I don't think I've ever been more continuously exposed to the local microflora/fauna than during this period.

    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday May 17 2020, @09:20AM

      by Anonymous Coward on Sunday May 17 2020, @09:20AM (#995287)

      I only read TFS, but I'm not really seeing the problem.

      Right. Those Chinese lied to good 'muricans to have dibs on the masks and PPE-s they manufacture.
      Misinformation from US is OK, only the one from China is outrageous.

    • (Score: 2, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday May 17 2020, @09:38AM

      by Anonymous Coward on Sunday May 17 2020, @09:38AM (#995291)

      > Discouraging this, in hopes of preventing hoarding makes perfect sense.

      Lying about the efficacy of facemask, convincing them through propaganda (MSM supported) that a preventative measure does not make any sense. At worst it is mass manslaughter, as thousands more die when the infection rate could have been arrested by everyone wearing scarves. Western governments and their media lied about the masks, putting Chernobyl era Soviet propaganda to shame. What else are the lying about? Gloves? Drugs? Death rates? Food? Jobs? How much sense will that make?

    • (Score: 5, Insightful) by JoeMerchant on Sunday May 17 2020, @01:12PM (2 children)

      by JoeMerchant (3937) on Sunday May 17 2020, @01:12PM (#995340)

      This "whistleblowing" sounds more like sour grapes.

      This whistleblowing is calling out the manipulation of the domestic population through deliberate spreading of misinformation.

      You think the anti-vax crowd is a bunch of crystal hugging whack jobs because they don't trust the information provided by "the system," but support the promotion of medical misinformation by the government to manipulate the population into potentially self-injurious behavior?

      If this really is "business as usual, nothing to see here, move along" then just how far are you willing to accept a lemming state where we're told to jump off of the cliffs not only "for the greater good" but because it's "good for you, too?"

      Next we really should put out a bunch of "credible science" proving that fast food is a nutritious healthy diet, for the good of the economy, eh?

      --
      My karma ran over your dogma.
      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday May 17 2020, @02:11PM (1 child)

        by Anonymous Coward on Sunday May 17 2020, @02:11PM (#995364)

        Next we really should put out a bunch of "credible science" proving that fast food is a nutritious healthy diet, for the good of the economy, eh?

        Brought to you by Carl's Jr.

        • (Score: 2) by JoeMerchant on Monday May 18 2020, @02:13AM

          by JoeMerchant (3937) on Monday May 18 2020, @02:13AM (#995575)

          If it's labeled as sponsored by Carl's Jr. that's fair game.

          When it's paid for by Carl's Jr. but labeled as official guidance from the CDC, FDA, or any other government agency - that's when we should be throwing the bums out at the next election.

          --
          My karma ran over your dogma.
    • (Score: 5, Informative) by toddestan on Sunday May 17 2020, @03:50PM

      by toddestan (4982) on Sunday May 17 2020, @03:50PM (#995386)

      I have no problem with them discouraging the Joe Sixpacks from using N95 masks so that they are available to those that need them. I do have a problem with them lying and purposely spreading misinformation to accomplish it though. There's already a bunch of conspiracy theories around the virus and all this does is throw fuel on the fire. If they lie about masks, why anyone believe them about social distancing, travel restrictions, vaccines, and so on? Why would you believe any guidelines from them around masks during the next pandemic?

      Maybe this worked this time, but this was an unbelievably stupid, irresponsible, and reckless thing to do and the people making this decision need to be sacked.

  • (Score: 0, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday May 17 2020, @04:55AM (3 children)

    by Anonymous Coward on Sunday May 17 2020, @04:55AM (#995254)

    I just want to emphasize that this is and was only an issue because people refuse to think for themselves. The utility (and necessity) of masks was incredibly obvious to anybody who actually took even the slightest of self initiative. In areas where the virus took a relatively smaller toll (such as Asia) masks are ubiquitous. Obviously healthcare workers are all wearing masks. And even in studies masks can (somewhat counter intuitively) do a *far* better than nil job of blocking particulate matter even when the matter is smaller than the mask's porosity.

    Governments will, first and foremost, take care of governments. Followed by that they will take care of society. And finally on the third level they will focus on individual outcomes. Yet for most living within societies our motivations in the exact opposite order - yet people continue to trust in governments.

    • (Score: 3, Insightful) by Username on Sunday May 17 2020, @01:14PM (2 children)

      by Username (4557) on Sunday May 17 2020, @01:14PM (#995342)

      In areas where the virus took a relatively smaller toll (such as Asia) masks are ubiquitous

      There are plenty of places where the virus took a relatively small toll and masks weren't common. If masks were that effective, covid19 wouldn't have spread in, and out of, china the way it did. Everyone seems to have had a mask there.

      I'm only familiar with USA numbers, and I know people never wore masks here like in china. California has about the same infection and death rate due to covid19 as South Dakota. Those two states have nothing in common. Neither had ubiquitous mask use. Now, New York, that has a lot in common with California, has the greatest number. Which makes no sense. And it's not just old people either. Florida has the most elderly, and has similar rates to CA and SD. I dont think masks have anything to do with it. There has to be another reason why some locations are hit harder than others.

      • (Score: 4, Insightful) by PartTimeZombie on Sunday May 17 2020, @10:22PM

        by PartTimeZombie (4827) Subscriber Badge on Sunday May 17 2020, @10:22PM (#995481)

        I'm familiar with our numbers, here in New Zealand, where the government were honest and open with us, and we played ball.

        This means New Zealand’s combined total of confirmed and probable cases is 1,499, of which 1,149 are confirmed cases of COVID-19.

        We now have 1,433 people reported as having recovered from COVID-19, an increase of five on yesterday. This is 96% of all confirmed and probable cases.

        Today there are two people receiving hospital-level care for COVID-19 – one each in Auckland and Middlemore hospitals. Neither of these patients is in ICU.

        We have had 21 deaths from covid-19, which is bad enough, but compared to other places not a disaster.

        Masks have never been mandated, or even recommended but I do do see a few people wearing them. According to the health experts they are not worth bothering with.

        To be fair, we have some major advantages the rest of the world does not have, and we've made the most of our isolation.

        Try and walk to New Zealand from wherever you live, go on, I dare you.

      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday May 17 2020, @11:07PM

        by Anonymous Coward on Sunday May 17 2020, @11:07PM (#995500)

        What? That's like saying "lead makes people dumb some places, so blows to the head can't make people dumb."

        These are multifactorial issues.

        Your analysis is deeply flawed.

  • (Score: -1, Offtopic) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday May 17 2020, @05:27AM (2 children)

    by Anonymous Coward on Sunday May 17 2020, @05:27AM (#995262)

    We miss you Terry Davis.

    • (Score: 2) by Subsentient on Sunday May 17 2020, @08:31AM

      by Subsentient (1111) on Sunday May 17 2020, @08:31AM (#995280) Homepage Journal

      I do miss him. I bet he would have called me "niggerlicious".

      --
      “Man is not a rational animal; he is a rationalizing animal.” ― Robert A. Heinlein
    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday May 17 2020, @01:05PM

      by Anonymous Coward on Sunday May 17 2020, @01:05PM (#995336)

      RIP Terry Davis

      Thou shall not litter!

  • (Score: 2, Interesting) by Bot on Sunday May 17 2020, @05:38AM (36 children)

    by Bot (3902) on Sunday May 17 2020, @05:38AM (#995264) Journal

    Personally, I still have to decide whether orange man is somle kind of opposition to the mondialists or the preconceived synthesis that normal people will be drawn to when the bad commies scares them enough. In my country, the government is unhinged (Conte selling out to gates and the EU, letting mafiosi out of jail supposedly to keep cosa nostra on their side, suspending the constitution, discussing TSO which is picking people and injecting them with vaccine or psychotropic drugs), I dunno in yours.

    But, criticizing the government for any limitation on the use of masks should first examine whether it's them or the other side right about wearing them. Get documented and good luck.

    --
    Account abandoned.
    • (Score: 3, Touché) by gtomorrow on Sunday May 17 2020, @10:52AM (7 children)

      by gtomorrow (2230) on Sunday May 17 2020, @10:52AM (#995300) Journal

      Some clarifications/comments:

      ...Conte selling out to gates and the EU...

      "Gates" as in Bill, "gates" as in "cancelli" or some "gates" I'm not aware of? As for the rest of the accusation, care to elaborate on the "selling out", per favore?

      ...letting mafiosi out of jail supposedly to keep cosa nostra on their side...

      Hmmm. My first reaction is to call "cazzate" but I'd like your take on this.

      ...suspending the constitution...

      How so?

      ...discussing TSO which is picking people and injecting them...

      Forgive my ignorance but "TSO"? Trans-Siberian Orchestra? As for the rest of the accusation, citation needed, s'il vous plaît?

      • (Score: 2) by Bot on Sunday May 17 2020, @08:57PM (6 children)

        by Bot (3902) on Sunday May 17 2020, @08:57PM (#995459) Journal

        Evidently you live well outside Italy or well under rocks.

        gates as in bill gates who doesn't deserve a shift keypress for capitalization.

        Source: https://www.ilsole24ore.com/art/vaccino-anti-covid-italia-prima-fila-130-milioni-telefonata-conte-gates-ADPia2N [ilsole24ore.com]
        The source is the leading economic newspaper in italy, it says conte, head of a government who still has to give all people the 600 eur promised for march, is going to give 130 millions to gates (the foundation ofc) to develop a vaccine against a coronavirus... good luck with that.

        As for the mafiosi, https://www.google.com/search?q=conte+scarcerati+41+bis [google.com] , the idea of the government was: the mafiosi in maximum security jail risk contagion (yeah unless you treat them AS YOU TREAT THE FUCKING NORMAL PEOPLE UNDER LOCKDOWN AND PREVENT ANYBODY TO COME IN CONTACT WITH THEM, THEN THEY ARE SAFER INSIDE THE PRISON) so we are going to let them stay home. This for 50 to 300 guys according to sources. Big uproar, so they officially released only three (maximum security) and like 300 other bosses and high profile https://espresso.repubblica.it/plus/articoli/2020/05/07/news/ndrangheta-ecco-i-nomi-dei-boss-scarcerati-per-l-emergenza-covid19-1.347946?preview=true [repubblica.it]

        Note that one boss officially too ill was let out and the day after arrested because already caught in a meeting with other mafiosi, see what wonders does getting home for your health.

        TSO is trattamento sanitario obbligatorio, which would be a welcome treatment to inject a couple neurons in your brain. A couple so they can talk to each other and not feel alone.

        --
        Account abandoned.
        • (Score: 2) by gtomorrow on Monday May 18 2020, @08:45AM (5 children)

          by gtomorrow (2230) on Monday May 18 2020, @08:45AM (#995649) Journal

          Oh, little Italian troll. You want pushback? Let's rock.

          AO! Ah, testa di minchia! Ma chi cazzo sei?! Come ti permetti rispondermi così, cafone?! Ti ho chiesto semplicemente delle spiegazioni e delle chiarificazioni e pensi che questo ti permette d'insultarmi? Pezzente che non sei altro!

          Now that we've gotten the convivalities out of the way...

          1) Nowhere in the Sole 24 articolo does it say Conte is handing over ~€130.000.000 to Gates (with a G maiuscola, deficiente analfabeto) but the COVID-19 vaccine research budget is around €130-140.000.000. Nice interpretation. Gates (again, to clarify between fence doors and a proper name, imbecile) called Presidente Conte to discuss the pandemic, most likely to help fund the Gates Foundation research. Stop. Coglione.

          2) As far as how the Italian government handled the "home arrest" of the aforementioned mafiosi, I'm afraid we are in agreement in that it was, to say the least, handled badly. But I put that agreement down to "even a broken clock tells the correct time twice a day," signor orologio rotto. La Repubblica Italiana is based on a humane treatment (even though those criminal dogs don't deserve as much) and there really is no provision in the Constitution of the Republic on how to handle such a situation. Go and reread Articolo 13, fascista di merda.

          3) TSO: who outside of tuo paese del terzo mondo would know what TSO signifies? I'll bet neanche tutti nel paese lo sanno! Oh, and is the Italian government grabbing people off the street Stasi-style for testing? Because that's how you made it appear. È ovvio che sei tu che manca gli neuroni se non addiritura un briciolo di cervello sparando cazzate del genere, coglione. Non ti permettere mai più rispondermi così e pretendo delle scuse.

          Anzi...spàrati.

          • (Score: 2) by Bot on Monday May 18 2020, @11:02PM (4 children)

            by Bot (3902) on Monday May 18 2020, @11:02PM (#996062) Journal

            > Come ti permetti rispondermi così, cafone?!
            Come ti permetti DI rispondermi così, cafone?

            Plus cafone is not very current, and mostly used by self appointed upper class women, so I would rather say: come si permette di rispondermi...

            > 1) Nowhere in the Sole 24
            24 ore

            > articolo does it say Conte is handing over ~€130.000.000 to Gates (with a G maiuscola, deficiente analfabeto)
            analfabeta, both towards male and female

            > but the COVID-19 vaccine research budget is around €130-140.000.000. Nice interpretation. Gates (again, to clarify between fence doors and a proper name, imbecile
            imbecille, two Ls, and most people with actually working neurons can desume things from context, you should try yourself.

            >) called Presidente Conte to discuss the pandemic, most likely to help fund the Gates Foundation research. Stop. Coglione.
            We'll see where the budget goes. Il secolo, which is another main newspaper, agrees with my interpretation. Maybe we have seen similar stuff happening often?

            > La Repubblica Italiana is based on a humane treatment
            LOL People will laugh in your face if you say that around here, unless they are commies and the party decides it is good for the cause. You know that saviano guy, right? the one who screamed NDRANGHETAAA when salvini showed a rosary? Now they let three 41 bis mafiosi and 300 bosses out and he doesn't raise the littlest red flag. No caps for him anymore, and no caps for salvini if he actually said draghi was ok.

            > 3) TSO: who outside of tuo paese del terzo mondo would know what TSO signifies?
            Everybody who read my original comment, where I told what TSO involved. Those that don't trust me will have to google a bit.

            Now, you didn't counter any point, so dunno, riprova sarai piu' fortunato.

            --
            Account abandoned.
            • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday May 19 2020, @02:35AM

              by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday May 19 2020, @02:35AM (#996139)

              I sense a hole, a hole at the base of your skull which leaked your brains into your ass.

            • (Score: 2) by gtomorrow on Tuesday May 19 2020, @09:18AM (2 children)

              by gtomorrow (2230) on Tuesday May 19 2020, @09:18AM (#996247) Journal

              Y'know, brutto fascista, instead of correcting my spelling errors and/or adding your worthless opinions and assumptions, you still didn't back up anything I asked.

              And now you're citing Il secolo?! Why don't you just cite Avanti!?!

              I should have just left it alone, being how nobody replied to your wild-ass trolling stronzate tranne me. Torna a infilare la tua lingua schifosa nel culo di Salvini. Almeno starai zitto così.

              Ah, un'ultima cosa. Non sì usa più "desume" in inglese. È una parola ormai antiquata. La parola, credo, che cercavi è "deduce." Bifolco.

              • (Score: 2) by Bot on Wednesday May 20 2020, @09:17AM (1 child)

                by Bot (3902) on Wednesday May 20 2020, @09:17AM (#996807) Journal

                Your argument is: no, conte is not giving money to bill gates, is setting up money to be given for research which will be counducted by the gates foundation.

                Anybody who thinks foundations are not tax avoidance schemes can leave the discussion now.

                Deduce and desume are different words with different meanings. Deduce implies more application of logic/reasoning.

                --
                Account abandoned.
    • (Score: 5, Interesting) by JoeMerchant on Sunday May 17 2020, @01:48PM (11 children)

      by JoeMerchant (3937) on Sunday May 17 2020, @01:48PM (#995356)

      Personally, I'm taking what I consider to be an exceptionally childish - yet effective - approach to "dealing with" the orange man. I ignore him whenever and wherever possible, and subtly belittle and ridicule those who extole his virtues. The Trump "supporters" I know aren't even offended when you make fun of him, they know how ridiculous he is, they mostly cling to the idea that the other choices would be worse for them. I disagree, but there's little point in trying to prove anything to a Trump supporter, facts and logic have little or no value to them - better to hit them with emotional persuasion, which is different for everyone.

      --
      My karma ran over your dogma.
      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday May 17 2020, @03:54PM (1 child)

        by Anonymous Coward on Sunday May 17 2020, @03:54PM (#995388)

        How is it childish to ignore a pathological liar?

      • (Score: 2, Disagree) by Bot on Sunday May 17 2020, @09:16PM (8 children)

        by Bot (3902) on Sunday May 17 2020, @09:16PM (#995465) Journal

        Germans surrendered to Hitler because they knew Weimar was a slow death. Italians surrendered to Mussolini because the king said so but also because they were struggling with the death of agricultural society dictated by WWI. It's irrelevant to say Mussolini was a school teacher, Hitler a failing artist and they both didn't go above corporal rank in the army. Both were surely controllable or they would not have raised so high. Both had support from people who CORRECTLY assessed that keeping the status quo was a slow suicide. We have a similar situation now. You may not like those who choose Trump, I may not like those who choose a different hitler, e.g. AOC is promising. But the status quo is an engineered slow suicide, so I don't particularly blame who is manipulated into choosing a particular way out.

        --
        Account abandoned.
        • (Score: 2) by JoeMerchant on Sunday May 17 2020, @10:21PM

          by JoeMerchant (3937) on Sunday May 17 2020, @10:21PM (#995480)

          The problem I see with mein Cheeto in Chief is that instead of a slow suicide he is pushing for a fast one.

          --
          My karma ran over your dogma.
        • (Score: 2) by PartTimeZombie on Sunday May 17 2020, @10:28PM (6 children)

          by PartTimeZombie (4827) Subscriber Badge on Sunday May 17 2020, @10:28PM (#995485)

          So you're arguing that because people chose fascism last century, and had their reasons, we shouldn't blame them for doing it again?

          Despite the fact that we know how that ended?

          Weird.

          • (Score: 2, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Monday May 18 2020, @12:31AM (4 children)

            by Anonymous Coward on Monday May 18 2020, @12:31AM (#995537)

            Brown shirts were hired by companies because police failed to protect property from destruction by Antifa. The Weimar Republic had all of the features that "progressives" want. If you give someone 2 bad choices, they are going to choose 1 of them. So the point is to avoid painting ourselves into that corner. We have the benefit of history. But unfortunately, we teach history in such a way that makes avoiding it impossible. We teach that Hitler was bad, but not how to avoid getting another one because that would show that progressivism has been tried before and that it was an unmitigated disaster.

            Speaking of 2 bad choices, maybe consider ranked choice voting.

            • (Score: 2) by PartTimeZombie on Monday May 18 2020, @01:11AM (3 children)

              by PartTimeZombie (4827) Subscriber Badge on Monday May 18 2020, @01:11AM (#995553)

              Good lord.

              What a strange worldview. It's almost like reality is optional.

              • (Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Monday May 18 2020, @02:34AM

                by Anonymous Coward on Monday May 18 2020, @02:34AM (#995585)

                It's just another way of saying that the only thing worse than Trump was Clinton. Trump may be an ignorant buffoon, but he would have to do a lot more evil before he is worse than a hot war in Iran. Hillary and the MIC* were gearing up for that even before the election, her losing to Trump saved a lot of lives on both sides.

                Search for the quote "Anyone can go to Baghdad. Real men go to Tehran."

              • (Score: 2, Touché) by Anonymous Coward on Monday May 18 2020, @03:12AM (1 child)

                by Anonymous Coward on Monday May 18 2020, @03:12AM (#995597)

                We were told that Hillary had a 99% chance of winning. Wrong. Trump colluded with Russia. Wrong. Reconsider whose reality is suspect.

                • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday May 18 2020, @09:22PM

                  by Anonymous Coward on Monday May 18 2020, @09:22PM (#996031)

                  Ouch, we got some real flat earth level dimwits around here. Just going by simple reported facts you are wrong. Maybe you'll grow out of your infantile mindset.

          • (Score: 2) by Bot on Wednesday May 20 2020, @09:15PM

            by Bot (3902) on Wednesday May 20 2020, @09:15PM (#997097) Journal

            > Despite the fact that we know how that ended?

            If this were an argument you shouldn't endorse anything remotely resembling SOCIALISM. Bernie, AOC, right out with the fascists.
            You shouldn't invest money in any financial system...

            oh wait this IS an argument.

            Seriously, it is not like PEOPLE actually chose. They were presented with two alternatives. One, allowing the progress to snuff them out. Two, adhere to the controlled opposition in the name of some values, and then get blamed for having done so, so next gen will grow up wary of such values. Both alternatives embrace progress, which does not mean "something that gets better with time", means "unfolding of a plan".

            For example the state of Israel was in the plan, the English caved in to terrorism and gave the land, Hitler, through terror, gave the people, even selecting them a bit.

            --
            Account abandoned.
    • (Score: 2, Insightful) by Azuma Hazuki on Sunday May 17 2020, @03:46PM (15 children)

      by Azuma Hazuki (5086) on Sunday May 17 2020, @03:46PM (#995383) Journal
      "Orange Man" is about as close to the Antichrist as I've ever seen someone come. And like the text says, he's fooled even large masses of the (hah!) so-called elect. Read here [benjaminlcorey.com] if you're not too much of a coward.
      --
      I am "that girl" your mother warned you about...
      • (Score: 1, Flamebait) by Pslytely Psycho on Sunday May 17 2020, @07:25PM (9 children)

        by Pslytely Psycho (1218) on Sunday May 17 2020, @07:25PM (#995441)

        Fair enough, so Joe Bidens lie total is up to what? A week, week and a half of Trumps? And even discussing sex scandals at this point in time is laughable after electing Mr. Grab Em by the Pussy.
        All politicos lie. But Trumpy even beats Nixon.....and the 1919 White Sox....

        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Sox_Scandal [wikipedia.org]

        --
        Trump succeeds in making Nixon look respectable, Mission Accomplished!
        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday May 18 2020, @12:14AM (4 children)

          by Anonymous Coward on Monday May 18 2020, @12:14AM (#995526)

          Access Hollywood tape comment was in the context of back stage activities, likely involving groupies who violate the stars personal space in a sexual manor. It is a well documented phenomenon, and expected for an Access Hollywood discussion. If the star reciprocates, we call that consent.

          • (Score: 2) by Pslytely Psycho on Monday May 18 2020, @09:25AM (3 children)

            by Pslytely Psycho (1218) on Monday May 18 2020, @09:25AM (#995657)

            Bullshit.

            It was never about groupies coming onto Trump. (GAG!)
            From the horses mouth:

            Trump: "Yeah that's her with the gold. I better use some Tic Tacs just in case I start kissing her. You know I'm automatically attracted to beautiful... I just start kissing them. It's like a magnet. Just kiss. I don't even wait. And when you're a star they let you do it. You can do anything."

            Bush: "Whatever you want."

            Trump: "Grab them by the pussy. You can do anything."

            That isn't someone invading his space, it's quite obvious it's the other way around.

            --
            Trump succeeds in making Nixon look respectable, Mission Accomplished!
            • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday May 19 2020, @02:37AM (1 child)

              by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday May 19 2020, @02:37AM (#996140)

              It really is something to see watching the MAGAs work so hard to re-interpret reality.

              • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday May 21 2020, @12:46AM

                by Anonymous Coward on Thursday May 21 2020, @12:46AM (#997173)

                I think that we all know that if Justin Bieber made this statement instead, it would not have been a news story. Selective outrage is political demagoguery.

                Also, the clip could have been edited to start earlier in the conversation, but including more context would have made the statement less controversial. Keep in mind, everyone in the clip knew that they had large cameras pointed at their faces, but they do not always know how they will be edited.

            • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday May 21 2020, @12:22AM

              by Anonymous Coward on Thursday May 21 2020, @12:22AM (#997165)

              Most people have heard of attraction to wealth.

              When you are a star, you get groupies, and they love it when you reciprocate. You did include in the quote "when you're a star." That is the qualifier that I am referring to. Stop ignoring it.

        • (Score: 1) by hemocyanin on Monday May 18 2020, @06:30AM (3 children)

          by hemocyanin (186) Subscriber Badge on Monday May 18 2020, @06:30AM (#995632) Journal

          Well, there's the whole Iraq war and such, but what's a few hundred thousand dead foreigners to Democrats like Biden?

          • (Score: 2) by Pslytely Psycho on Monday May 18 2020, @09:05AM (2 children)

            by Pslytely Psycho (1218) on Monday May 18 2020, @09:05AM (#995653)

            The Iraq war was started in 2003, under George Bush. There was indeed bipartisan support for it. So should you not hold Republicans feet to the fire as well? After all 215 (96.4%) of 223 Republican Representatives voted for the resolution. 82 (39.2%) of 209 Democratic Representatives voted for the resolution.

            And why is it important that Biden voted yea, and yet you completely overlook that the sitting Vice President Mike Pence also voted Yea?
            Not to mention both Clinton and Biden have admitted the vote was a mistake, but not Mike Pence.

            Or is it only bad if the person voting has a D in their party descriptor?

            --
            Trump succeeds in making Nixon look respectable, Mission Accomplished!
            • (Score: 1) by hemocyanin on Monday May 18 2020, @03:35PM (1 child)

              by hemocyanin (186) Subscriber Badge on Monday May 18 2020, @03:35PM (#995859) Journal

              Biden didn't just vote yes. He pushed it in every way he could. To say he was just one of the morons who got duped (enough reason to despise him) is not just misleading, it's rewriting history.

              https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/feb/17/joe-biden-role-iraq-war [theguardian.com]

              Biden did vastly more than just vote for the war. Yet his role in bringing about that war remains mostly unknown or misunderstood by the public. When the war was debated and then authorized by the US Congress in 2002, Democrats controlled the Senate and Biden was chair of the Senate committee on foreign relations. Biden himself had enormous influence as chair and argued strongly in favor of the 2002 resolution granting President Bush the authority to invade Iraq.

              “I do not believe this is a rush to war,” Biden said a few days before the vote. “I believe it is a march to peace and security. I believe that failure to overwhelmingly support this resolution is likely to enhance the prospects that war will occur …”

              But he had a power much greater than his own words. He was able to choose all 18 witnesses in the main Senate hearings on Iraq. And he mainly chose people who supported a pro-war position

              • (Score: 2) by Pslytely Psycho on Monday May 18 2020, @10:47PM

                by Pslytely Psycho (1218) on Monday May 18 2020, @10:47PM (#996059)

                Still won't mention Pence also pushed for it.

                Since Pence was right there with them, your comments are totally pointless.

                He was duped, yea, BFD.

                At least he admits it was a bad vote.

                Where is Pence's retraction?

                Oh that's right, Theocracy pushing Pence was 'forgiven' by Cheeto, so all is well.

                Seriously, you're arguments are so thin, they make tracing paper look like parchment.

                Yawn....you bore me.

                --
                Trump succeeds in making Nixon look respectable, Mission Accomplished!
      • (Score: 2) by Bot on Sunday May 17 2020, @08:38PM (3 children)

        by Bot (3902) on Sunday May 17 2020, @08:38PM (#995452) Journal

        >he's fooled even large masses of the (hah!) so-called elect

        This is not gonna happen though. For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

        note the "if it were possible" which is "is possible" in other versions. It is not possible to deceive the elect, I guess, not because the elect have special powers, but simply because the antichrist by definition denies the Christ, which for a Christian is a red flag glowing hot.

        A Trump COULD be an antichrist (John uses the plural too) that fools some guys who pose as christian. Why not. But not the elect. To do that, he would need to deny christ, which could happen if he aligns too much with the zionists and jews who are antichrist by definition and choice. Or maybe he plays the wicked one card and rebuilds the temple and plays god in it. But as Bill Gates, I think he lacks some charisma.

        --
        Account abandoned.
        • (Score: 2) by Bot on Monday May 18 2020, @01:26AM (2 children)

          by Bot (3902) on Monday May 18 2020, @01:26AM (#995558) Journal

          Uh and about those great signs and wonders... and that head of the beast (a nation) being struck and healed... The only thing we are getting is the wormwood star (nuclear shit in the pacific, I guess some rotting sub or the aptly named fuk-u-shima reactor)

          --
          Account abandoned.
          • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday May 19 2020, @02:39AM (1 child)

            by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday May 19 2020, @02:39AM (#996141)

            I see you're losing it, goooood.

            • (Score: 2) by Bot on Wednesday May 20 2020, @09:20PM

              by Bot (3902) on Wednesday May 20 2020, @09:20PM (#997100) Journal

              The good news, I am losing it.
              The bad news, since it started happening around 1995 it's better you don't hold your breath.

              --
              Account abandoned.
      • (Score: 2) by Pslytely Psycho on Monday May 18 2020, @09:16AM

        by Pslytely Psycho (1218) on Monday May 18 2020, @09:16AM (#995655)

        Shit, I posted my response to the wrong comment. Sorry bout that. It was supposed to go to hemocyanin's comment that posted a video about Biden lies.
        Sorry Azuma.
        It does appear I pissed a few people off however, so there is that.....

        --
        Trump succeeds in making Nixon look respectable, Mission Accomplished!
  • (Score: 5, Interesting) by Rich on Sunday May 17 2020, @07:52AM (5 children)

    by Rich (945) on Sunday May 17 2020, @07:52AM (#995279) Journal

    I found the single most interesting piece on the topic was the paper "An epidemiological investigation of 2019 novel coronavirus diseases through aerosol-borne transmission by public transport" by Kai-wei, Zheng et. al. (2020-03-05) English sum-up in the Daily Mail: https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8094933/How-one-man-spread-coronavirus-NINE-people-bus.html [dailymail.co.uk] But: The journal Practical Preventive Medicine retracted the study on March 10 with no reason given.

    Key findings were:
    1.) Aerosolized infection happens intensely, and over large distance in closed rooms.
    2.) No one wearing a mask, however primitive, for self-protection got infected in the case described.
    I have no idea why the paper was retracted, but both its publishing and its retraction should been hell of a reason to research the matter.

    From what I gathered, the virus needs to be kept wet to survive, so it needs to be be bound to a wet aerosol droplet which is significantly larger, and many of those might well be within the filtering ability of even lesser fabrics than FFP2/3 (N95/99). I got the impression that most "official" information is roughly as valid as that of your average conspiracy theorist and that for a reasonable level of correctness you have to go to the scientific sources. We're very lucky in Germany to have Christian Drosten, who is a key researcher on the topic doing regular interviews. And of course the "masks don't protect the public" message was a straight lie, because they were caught with their pants down wrt the supply situation. (My personal conspiracy theory would be that they deliberately started the bog roll scarce, so the people would try to hamster those, rather than masks...)

    • (Score: 2) by Username on Sunday May 17 2020, @04:05PM (4 children)

      by Username (4557) on Sunday May 17 2020, @04:05PM (#995391)

      That doesn't sound right to me. I've been hearing everyone say humidity kills the virus, and if it moisture helps it survive, dry arid places would be safe.

      The best experiment I can think of, would be to put a bunch of people in a room together. Half with mask, Half without, then put in an off the shelf "teargas" grenade. Those who felt any burning would be infected. I don't see how aerosolized hotsauce would be that much different than aerosolized covid19.

      • (Score: 3, Interesting) by Rich on Sunday May 17 2020, @05:05PM (1 child)

        by Rich (945) on Sunday May 17 2020, @05:05PM (#995407) Journal

        I'm as much armchair virologist as anyone here (and haven't even studied all of Prof. Drosten's "lectures" diligently). As I got it, the virus surface is fat-like, but it can dry out. Therefore detergents (tensids) instantly dissolve it, but other than that, it seems to prefer to be in a fluid. Drosten repeatedly discerned between "active virus" and "identifiable RNA", because dead virus RNA will PCR-test postive. I suggest you go for the source (deepl is a really good translator) and have a look for yourself. ;) I a recent session he estimated transfer at around 45% aerosol (breathing), 45% droplet (cough), 10% others (smear...), and said that surface transmission is rather unlikely. You'd be better off to ventilate well than to overdo washing your hands.

        • (Score: 2) by Username on Monday May 18 2020, @12:25AM

          by Username (4557) on Monday May 18 2020, @12:25AM (#995531)

          Sounds like a way to make a flu "vaccine" like approach. If they could use some body safe detergent to partially dissolve the virus, then inject into a patient to generate an autoimmune response to build up antibodies against it. Too bad that cannot be asked otherwise the media will say they're telling people to inject Lysol into their bodies.

          I wonder if this was retracted because it was faked, or because it contradicted the WHO or CDC position.

          I cannot find the talking point on either of their sites, but they are trying their best to link it to climate change which is clogging up the results for moisture or humidity and covid19. This is basically the talking point: https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/how-humidity-may-affect-covid-19-outcome#How-dry-air-affects-immunity,-viral-spread [medicalnewstoday.com]

      • (Score: 2) by mhajicek on Sunday May 17 2020, @05:51PM (1 child)

        by mhajicek (51) on Sunday May 17 2020, @05:51PM (#995417)

        The body is a wet environment. If moisture killed it, it couldn't infect us.

        • (Score: 2) by Username on Monday May 18 2020, @12:02AM

          by Username (4557) on Monday May 18 2020, @12:02AM (#995519)

          Hum. That does make a lot of sense to me. I know moisture does remove dust from the air, maybe there is a similar effect to spit launched or skin flaked virus projectiles. Maybe the virus itself lives on mites that exists on dust, or even can exist as a dust like particle. I know dandelion seeds and such will be killed off in a too we environment. Maybe in the covid19 lifecycle there is a similar airborne phase that's requires it to be dry.

  • (Score: 0, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday May 17 2020, @10:15AM (2 children)

    by Anonymous Coward on Sunday May 17 2020, @10:15AM (#995297)

    Look what happened to active cases in Austria when mask wearing was made mandatory in early April: this is what made Germany follow suit.

    https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/austria/ [worldometers.info]

    • (Score: 3, Informative) by JoeMerchant on Sunday May 17 2020, @01:32PM

      by JoeMerchant (3937) on Sunday May 17 2020, @01:32PM (#995352)

      Thanks for the link, great site. I like this quote from an analysis of NYC data:

      So far there has been 1 death every 1,166 people under 65 years old (compared to 1 death every 358 people in the general population). And 89% of the times, the person who died had one or more underlying medical conditions.

      Message to my mom & dad (aged 72 and 73) STAY THE FUCK OFF THE STREETS. Same for anyone with underlying medical conditions that may make them susceptible. This thing is real, it's deadly, and you are at serious risk. Demand that people who interact with you take all precautions including distancing, proper masking, gloves, etc. as well as taking those precautions yourself. Normally, I'm not a fan of hand sanitizer, but in the at risk population at this time: use it, liberally.

      As for the rest of us, my layman's common sense advice would be: get on with life, if you haven't caught this thing yet you will eventually, and the sooner you get it and get over it, the sooner you will no longer be a vector for transmission. Get tested, know your status, in all likelihood there are (rare) Typhoid Marys out there and they should stay away from at risk people, food prep, and other super-spreader situations until we've got a better handle on vaccination, etc.

      Don't like advice from some random schmuck on the internet whose credentials and motivations are a mystery to you? Read TFA and decide if you'd rather trust your government instead.

      --
      My karma ran over your dogma.
    • (Score: 2, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday May 17 2020, @02:07PM

      by Anonymous Coward on Sunday May 17 2020, @02:07PM (#995363)

      That's nice, but wrong. There's no way any measure can have an effect on events 5 days earlier. For most measures, the expected delay time is two weeks (spread time, incubation time, symptom appearance time, time to take it seriously enough to get tested, time to get registered as a statistic). So the effect of "mask wearing made mandatory in early April" can not show in those numbers until roughly 15-20 april. Guess what: the virus spread was already well under control before that time.

  • (Score: 2, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday May 17 2020, @12:36PM (4 children)

    by Anonymous Coward on Sunday May 17 2020, @12:36PM (#995323)

    The government wants to create two sets of information. One set for the poor and one set for the elite.

    Just like we have two sets of laws. One set for the poor and one for the elite. The poor is subject tot he PDT rule. Not the elite. The poor can't invest using peerstreet. The rich can.

    • (Score: 2) by JoeMerchant on Sunday May 17 2020, @01:42PM (2 children)

      by JoeMerchant (3937) on Sunday May 17 2020, @01:42PM (#995355)

      It's not that the poor are targeted, it's that they (our elected leadership) have got a mindset that protection of "key people" will benefit everyone more. Granted, the poor are rarely "key people," the whole concept of eliteism is generally misguided, and the idea that you can keep a secret in today's world without it coming back to do much more damage in the long run than being forthright from the start would have done is... delusional romance from days long gone.

      As compared to WWII when secret keeping was key strategy, and successful leaks took months to spread from unintended source to detrimental receiver, information today spreads globally in milliseconds. The "R value" of the average valuable secret has gone from something far less than 1.0 to ridiculous high multiples of 10. Anyone with this kind of information and the tiniest impulse to do so can spread it anonymously and virtually instantly globally. There are still functional strategies of drowning out secrets with harmless and more publicly engaging noise, but anything of real substance and broad appeal is never going to be drowned out.

      --
      My karma ran over your dogma.
      • (Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday May 17 2020, @02:24PM (1 child)

        by Anonymous Coward on Sunday May 17 2020, @02:24PM (#995366)

        Lets say your two sets of information theory is correct.
        Maybe rich and poor, but certainly healthcare workers and general public.

        As bad as that is, it is minor compared to how it shows the ability of the government to think through the consequences of their actions.

        There are two basic operational problems with the government doing this.

        The first is that it won't work. If the general public does not take measures to keep the virus at bay, the healthcare workers will be overwhelmed and all the masks they dream of will not help. The best chance to help the health care workers is a general public doing reasonable things. This requires informing them what needs to be done and letting them help.

        The second is that the CDC being caught lying to the public undermines the ability of the government to convince the public to do something reasonable.

        Definitely a sad state of affairs in the Whitehouse in terms of an intelligent, proactice response.

        • (Score: -1, Flamebait) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday May 17 2020, @04:17PM

          by Anonymous Coward on Sunday May 17 2020, @04:17PM (#995396)

          I would bet my house that the CDC employees who came up with the misleading mask info hate Trump. The surveillance state was out to get him as we've now had confirmation of, and I suspect every other ossified layer of the government is out there to do, doing the #resistance thing. Whether #resistance means trying to start a nuclear war with Russia or propping up Pelosi's friends in the 0.01% or killing fellow citizens, it's all worth it to them if Trump loses the next election.

    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday May 17 2020, @06:32PM

      by Anonymous Coward on Sunday May 17 2020, @06:32PM (#995426)
      The real elite rich can afford their own health care teams with enough N95 masks. They can pay high prices for the masks, ventilators etc and get them. They don't have to expose themselves too. Other people can do the purchasing, cooking, safety systems and procedures so that they can live in luxurious comfort, safe and shielded from covid-19.

      Not so for the normal folk and poor:

      In the early stages before production ramped up there definitely weren't enough N95 masks. There might still be a shortage of N95 masks in some areas.

      There are significantly fewer doctors and nurses compared to the normal people. So I'd say it's a lesser evil to have fewer "normal people" wearing N95 masks in order for doctors and nurses serving the normal people to have more of them.

      If the normal people mostly stay at home, their risk is lower - just once a week when they go out to shop or something. Whereas many doctors and nurses will need the masks to deal with covid-19 patients, daily for hours.

      There are of course other higher risk people like supermarket cashiers etc. N95 masks and other PPE (face shields) might be helpful for them too. They also have added risks from handling cash.

      If your local hospital gets crippled or shutdown because too many healthcare workers get covid-19, it's not a problem for the elite rich. But it might be a problem for normal people who might need that hospital.

      The world will remain unfair. But you really think telling normal people not to use N95 masks so that doctors and nurses can have more makes it more unfair?
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