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Arthur T Knackerbracket has found the following story:
Australia's conservative government announced plans Friday to double university fees for humanities students, in a bid to push people into more useful, "job-relevant" courses like maths and science.
Under the proposal—which critics panned as an "ideological assault"—the cost of degrees like history or cultural studies will rise up to 113 percent to around US$29,000, while other courses such as nursing and information technology will become cheaper.
Education Minister Dan Tehan—an arts graduate with two advanced degrees in international relations—said the government wanted to corral young people towards "jobs of the future" to boost the country's economic recovery from the coronavirus pandemic.
"If you are wanting to do philosophy, which will be great for your critical thinking, also think about doing IT," Tehan said.
The plan would help pay for an additional 39,000 university places by 2023 and for cost cuts for courses like science, agriculture, maths and languages.
[...] "I'm an arts graduate and so is the minister for education so I'm not sure you can draw the conclusion that we're completely unemployable," said opposition lawmaker Tanya Plibersek.
(Score: 5, Insightful) by Revek on Monday June 22 2020, @12:06AM (140 children)
We need more slaves not free thinkers.
This page was generated by a Swarm of Roaming Elephants
(Score: 3, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Monday June 22 2020, @12:22AM (7 children)
Erm, free thinking has been verboten in humanities departments for at least a decade. Have at this... [areomagazine.com]
(Score: 5, Insightful) by driverless on Monday June 22 2020, @02:01AM
Also, note how they give the new cost of a humanities degree while carefully avoiding giving the cost of the degrees they're comparing it to:
The cost of a nursing degree is around $30,000, I don't know what "cheaper" is but it looks like the cost of getting a degree in the History of Ethiopian Pottery in 4000BC will be adjusted to equal the cost of a degree in Saving People's Lives.
Doesn't make as much of a headline when you put it like that though.
(Score: 2, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Monday June 22 2020, @02:12AM (5 children)
Oh, cum now! Free thinking is not the same thing as the right to be a stupid conservative right-wing nut-job, because that is the opposite of thinking, and you are confusing having an opinion with the the process of forming a rational, reality based, scientifically sound and progressive opinion. Sucks to be you, and I am sorry you see this as discrimination, but you remain stupid, while your peers surpass you in an criteria of success. Most of the Humanities majors are able to walk down fairly steep ramps.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday June 22 2020, @04:07AM (1 child)
And slippery slopes.
(Score: 2) by DannyB on Monday June 22 2020, @01:52PM
Global warming. Melting. Slopes become less slippery.
If you eat an entire cake without cutting it, you technically only had one piece.
(Score: 2, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Monday June 22 2020, @02:52PM
If you think because someone is $(ideology) they are automatically a nut-job, you've become exactly what you claim not to be - a non-thinker. You are confusing the process of forming a rational reality based, scientifically sound opinion. (Progressive opinions are the ONLY opinions that are rational, reality based, and Scientifically Sound?).
Suck to be you Anonymous Coward above me, and I'm sorry you don't see the FREAKING HUGE LOG in your own eye while you point out the spec in others, but you remain stupid while your peers surpass you in what you consider to be a criteria of success. (You don't walk down steep ramps, you tripped off the cliff you built for others)
(Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Monday June 22 2020, @10:33PM (1 child)
It is a false dichotomy you create. First off, there are entire branches of college education devoted entirely to whining about things, reinstituting segregation, and suppressing freedom of speech and thought. 40 years ago it was the right wing authoritarians engaging in such behavior. Now it is the regressive left which has taken up the banner of authoritarianism and $race supremacy.
Evergreen is not an anomaly, it was a hint.
CHAZ is not an anomaly, it is a warning, although Jaiden Grayson disagrees -- she says she's just explaining what comes next.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZpW_QLWrubE&feature=youtu.be&t=140 [youtube.com]
These things are the end result of decades of critical.*.studies, subsidized by America, aimed at destroying America.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday June 23 2020, @07:13AM
Not giving crazy people a platform is not suppressing speach, it is saving them from public embarrassment. Too bad when you have an organization with money to rent 19,000 seat arenas, and none of your family or friends can talk you out of embarrassing yourself. Again, and how many times must we explain this, conservativism is just ignorance and prejudice dressed up as if it were an intellectual position. It is not, it is stupidity, insanity, and just plain no-good lack of thinking. So, come back when you have something non-crazy to say, and even centers of higher-learning may want to hear what you have to say. But if it is the same old racist crap, repackaged as "edgy" and "alt-right", we are not going to legitimize your insanity by giving you a platform. Sorry, Ben. And Milo. And David. And TMB. And VLM. And Sulla. And Runaway1955.
(Score: 5, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Monday June 22 2020, @12:40AM (40 children)
Exactly. This is consistent with the right's attack on education all around the world. The right wants wage slaves to act as cogs in their enterprises. The right fears a population that can think for itself.
E.g., The far right in Texas outlawed teaching of critical thinking in schools:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/answer-sheet/post/texas-gop-rejects-critical-thinking-skills-really/2012/07/08/gJQAHNpFXW_blog.html [washingtonpost.com]
And, of course the advisor to both Nixon and Reagan, Roger Freeman,:
"We are in danger of producing an educated
proletariat. That's dynamite! We have to be selective about who we
allow to through higher education. If not, we will have a large number
of highly trained and unemployed people."
The far right's solution, is to ensure that the masses are kept ignorant-- even turning university into vocational training. Of course, the wealthy elites leading the right, do not have their own children attend the training style schools that they promote for the masses-- Montessori as children, legacy admissions (regardless of merit) to elite universities when older. It is no accident that in the US, which is further down the path to neo-feudalism than many other nations, that the single determinant most likely to predict future success is how wealthy your parents are.
And, of course the far-right hates the idea of people knowing their history. Better to have ignorant flag wavers who believe everything their masters tell them.
(Score: 0, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Monday June 22 2020, @12:47AM (35 children)
Wrong! [twitter.com]
This is why they're tearing down historical statues is it?
(Score: 5, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Monday June 22 2020, @01:30AM (34 children)
Ah, an ignorant flag waver speaks up. Here is a short history lesson for you, if you can put down the flag for a few seconds.
Those statues were put in place during the nadir of race relations in the South, many decades after the civil war as emblems of white racism in the South.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Removal_of_Confederate_monuments_and_memorials [wikipedia.org]
They do have a historical significance-- They celebrate racism in the South. The country minus a minority of ignorant confederate flag wavers believe that this is not a history worthy of celebrating.
Even if that tweet is real (no guarantee since most tropes circulated by the right are fabrications), one moron does not a movement make. And, it does not counter the assertion that the right has attacked education throughout the world. Try again. This would not be so hard for you, if you had received a proper education.
(Score: 4, Touché) by Anonymous Coward on Monday June 22 2020, @01:59AM (8 children)
Which flag are you waving?
Ulysses S. Grant and Miguel de Cervantes were not Confederates. Try again.
It was real [archive.is] and such foolish concepts abound within the social justice movement although I agree they are morons.
[citations needed]
Based on your debating skill here, had I paid for a "proper education" such as yours, I would be demanding a refund.
(Score: 1) by petecox on Monday June 22 2020, @02:17AM (5 children)
Wait, they vandalised a statue of the author of Don Quixote?
Who could be offended by a 17th century pisstake?
(Score: 4, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Monday June 22 2020, @02:23AM (2 children)
One and the same, the author of Don Quixote who was himself a former slave.
(Score: 2) by c0lo on Monday June 22 2020, @03:11AM (1 child)
[Citation needed]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoFiw2jMy-0
(Score: 2, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Monday June 22 2020, @03:25AM
Here you are. [bbc.com]
(Score: 5, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Monday June 22 2020, @02:33AM (1 child)
Cops running around claiming to be "antifa." Remember the Reichstag fire in 1933.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday June 22 2020, @03:41AM
That isn't what people mean when they tell Antifa to Lubbe up.
(Score: 1, Funny) by Anonymous Coward on Monday June 22 2020, @03:48AM
>> the right has attacked education throughout the world.
>[citations needed]
Ummmm.... See the article that you are commenting on?
And, the post earlier in this thread that provides a link to the Texas Republican (far-right) law against teaching critical thinking in Texas public schools.
A proper education could really help you with your reading comprehension.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday June 24 2020, @09:47PM
Grant participated in the genocide of indigenous people.
(Score: 3, Touché) by Anonymous Coward on Monday June 22 2020, @03:52AM (24 children)
Floyd's death happened in Minneapolis, Minnesota, a state so far north, any farther north is Canada.
If racism was involved, it was NORTHERN racism, and the mob should have toppled statues of UNION soldiers.
But... the South is racist and the Confederacy is EVIL, let's march on the South! Stupid fucks, the South had nothing to do with it. This was YANKEE all the way. What happens when the facts don't fit the narrative? ...
(Score: 2, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Monday June 22 2020, @04:30AM (23 children)
They did. The dumb-asses tore down a statue of US Grant, the guy who accepted the surrender of the Confederacy. The "protesters" are, if anything, invincibly ignorant. I'd love to see a bullet in the skulls of every one of these vandals, China style.
(Score: 1, Touché) by Anonymous Coward on Monday June 22 2020, @04:46AM (22 children)
That's because the real enemy is much broader than some old Confederate soldiers from over 150 years ago. The real enemy was always the entire white race, particularly males, that ruled before year zero of the present Communist Revolution.
(Score: 2, Insightful) by Azuma Hazuki on Monday June 22 2020, @01:02PM (21 children)
No one believes this except a bunch of bed-wetting little manchildren like yourself. What's wrong, are you scared that you'll be treated poorly based on your skin color, sex, gender, or culture for no good reason? Wow, wouldn't THAT suck? Good thing it's NEVER EVER HAPPENED TO ANYONE ELSE BEFORE.
I am "that girl" your mother warned you about...
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday June 22 2020, @03:42PM
So you are saying I am correct?
(Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Monday June 22 2020, @05:06PM (1 child)
Most aren't listening to what these protesters are saying. The real enemy is capitalism and having to work for positive outcomes. Racism is just a front since many protestors and rioters are middle/upper class white kids. BLM are self admitted marxists and 1/2 their demands relate to that. The street level people don't even know what they're revolting about as evidenced from interviews and tearing down grant/defacing civil war black regiment.
Come on... Police brutality in the UK? Institutional racism... especially there!? People who lived through the real deal would beg to differ. That's why it's the realm of the young; those lacking life experience or world travel. Last 10 years has been full of hints, in songs, media and education. The Bernie people even straight up said if he didn't get the nomination they'd burn this motherfucker down.
It's not even unprecedented. The same exact "revolution" was had in the 60s USA. The Black Liberation Movement is the previous "BLM" and they just changed the acronym but not much else. In their eyes capitalism IS white supremacy and these type of things are taught in the humanities as fact these days. The sad people focused on race and racism are the legit racists and it's blinding them from seeing the forest for the trees.
(Score: 1, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Monday June 22 2020, @10:48PM
Let me give that a citation: https://itsgoingdown.org/questions-in-the-face-of-counterinsurgency/ [itsgoingdown.org]
It should also be noted that Democracy is also on the chopping block:
(Score: -1, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Monday June 22 2020, @07:02PM (4 children)
We're not going to live with the leaches any longer. We will have our own ethnostate(s). Whites are starting to wake up to the scam of multiculturalism and white genocide. Other races, antiracialists, and race traitors can live together, or separately as they choose, and can develop their own civilizations, such as they will be.
White Genocide Is Real: In Their Own Words: https://www.bitchute.com/video/Es3WG7JKJUGB/ [bitchute.com]
(Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Monday June 22 2020, @07:51PM (1 child)
Eww, true trash here on SN.
Can you deniers admit there is a neo-nazi infestation around here yet?
(Score: 2, Insightful) by Azuma Hazuki on Tuesday June 23 2020, @02:25AM
The "deniers" *are* part of the infestation, they're just too cowardly to admit it. This place has a serious problem with that type...
I am "that girl" your mother warned you about...
(Score: 3, Touché) by Azuma Hazuki on Tuesday June 23 2020, @12:38AM (1 child)
So where is this ethnostate going to be located, exactly? In case you haven't noticed, pretty much all the land is taken up already aside from some very inhospitable places near the antipodes.
I am "that girl" your mother warned you about...
(Score: 3, Insightful) by aristarchus on Tuesday June 23 2020, @07:22AM
Usually, it is their Own Private Idaho [wikipedia.org], but it usually does not work out the way they thought, much like the Mad Mormons, like Lori Vallow and the Bundy's, found out, especially when the standoff at the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge resulted in shipments of barrels of lube and all kinds of sex toys, since it was a Dubioius Battle [wikipedia.org]. But really, there is no place for a white supremacist to go anymore, what with the Fall of the Third Reich and the end of Apartheid, and the fact that their parents won't let them move back in.
(Score: 4, Insightful) by hemocyanin on Monday June 22 2020, @10:39PM (12 children)
So what you're saying, is that people who had nothing to do with any of this stuff in past centuries, should just suck up the new racist ideology of the regressive left? That fundamental freedoms, the very concept of equality, should just be thrown out the window because a long time ago people unconnected to us did bad shit.
That's fucked up.
(Score: 2) by Azuma Hazuki on Tuesday June 23 2020, @12:35AM (11 children)
Uh, no? You have some real problems with reading comprehension. Willful ones.
I am "that girl" your mother warned you about...
(Score: 3, Touché) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday June 23 2020, @02:04AM (1 child)
No, he pretty much nailed exactly what you said.
(Score: -1, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday June 23 2020, @07:30AM
NO, he is just a snowflake, too white, too fragile, irresponsible, and not will to admit his people's injustices that have resulted in structural racism. I say, punch him in the face, tax him for reparations, but him on a "washita reservation", send him blankets infected with smallpox, deny him loans for houses in nice neighborhoods, make him ride in the back of the bus, and rape his female relatives with impunity, just so he gets some idea of what it is like, as Azumi suggested. Or, we could just lynch him because of his skin color. That might get the message across.
(Score: 3, Insightful) by hemocyanin on Tuesday June 23 2020, @07:23AM (8 children)
Not really. My great grandparents were peasants in E. Europe who escaped pogroms in the early 1900s to come here. You are clearly suggesting through sarcasm that I should be re-subjected to the discrimination they suffered because other unrelated people did bad things to other unrelated people. NO! I support equality, but you, with your lax dismissive attitude toward it, support human rights violations while you ride around here on your high horse sanctimoniously criticizing those who fear a resurgence of identitarianism, and would struggle against it just like our grandparents did in the Second World War. It baffles me why you want to resurrect such evil.
(Score: -1, Spam) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday June 23 2020, @07:32AM
COLLABORATOR!!!! COLLABORATOR!!! HANG HIM! BURN HIM!!! White privilege comes at a price, even if you were not the one to create it. And you are Jewish? Passing for white? Oy, vey! the Chutzpah!
(Score: 2) by Azuma Hazuki on Tuesday June 23 2020, @01:43PM (6 children)
Uh...what? Please point out the exact things I've said that lead you to that conclusion and the chain of thought that brought you there.
And please note, I am *not* sitting here going "hahaha stupid wypipo, get what's coming to you!" I'm not that petty, and being "wypipo" myself, it would be really damn stupid and self-destructive to wish that. No, I'm hoping the OP stops and thinks "wait a minute, what are MY motives for that little rant?"
Because, Hemocyanin, what I notice most from people like that is a hell of a lot of projection. They assume that $MINORITY are just as awful as they are, will treat them just as badly as they either do treat or wish to treat $MINORITY, and have a complete disconnect between that fear and the realization that if they have a problem with the idea they should be paying it forward. It's whiny, selfish, white-fragility bullshit. And you appear to be falling for the same trap. Please slow your roll and think about this for a moment.
I am "that girl" your mother warned you about...
(Score: 2, Interesting) by hemocyanin on Tuesday June 23 2020, @07:46PM (5 children)
First regarding you comment, it's pretty clear: https://soylentnews.org/comments.pl?noupdate=1&sid=38111&page=1&cid=1011387#commentwrap [soylentnews.org]
Secondly, YOU are injecting race here. I am talking about the authoritarian regressive left. I would see a world with equality for all. You would see a world divided by race. It was this story that crystallized for me why I am so repulsed by the regressive left and mentioned it in another post:
You insult me about white fragility, but what I'm concerned with is freedom and equality for all people. Freedom and equality ARE fragile. They are easily crushed and what comes afterward, is always bloody and horrific. I will stand against the wall for those principles, and you will pull the trigger.
(Score: 2) by Azuma Hazuki on Wednesday June 24 2020, @01:40AM (4 children)
And if you want freedom and equality for all people, *you must create the conditions necessary for them to exist.* There is no way around this.
Freedom and equality are not pre-existing Platonic forms floating around in some ethereal realm of ideas, just waiting to be spoken into existence, top-down. Reality does not work this way. They are grassroots, bottom-up, the *end results* of adaptive, humanistic organization of society.
You, Hemocyanin, don't strike me as someone truly interested in making freedom and equality happen. No, it sounds more like you have a victim or martyrdom complex the size of God, and are almost creaming yourself in anticipation of being slain "for the cause." A cause you have such a poor grasp on that you don't even know how to begin bringing it about, a cause you know so little of that you'd rather attack people who could potentially be allies than sit down and examine the fundamental ideas you have about.
You know what I'd do to you, given the chance? *Exactly what I'm doing now.* You have no need to fear a bullet or even a mocking custard pie from me. You have every reason to fear merciless deconstruction, blunt critique, and even mockery if and when deserved. And something tells me that you fear that more than you fear high-velocity lead.
I am "that girl" your mother warned you about...
(Score: 1, Disagree) by hemocyanin on Wednesday June 24 2020, @08:20PM (1 child)
However you wish to couch things, whatever pretty words you wish to decorate your ideology with, and whatever insults you wish to throw at me, your ideas are not an opposition to racial supremacists' ideas, but consonant with them. They strike me as Orwellian: Equality Through Oppression!
(Score: 2) by Azuma Hazuki on Thursday June 25 2020, @01:25PM
So you haven't seen my thoughts on affirmative action, for example?
I know, I know, you want SO badly to be able to peg your ideological opponents as cases of Harrison Bergeron syndrome. That's not the truth, certainly not in my case, and you do no one any favors by closing your eyes, pulling your hat down over your head, and whining that everyone else is just as bad as the people they claim to be opposing. Only you, Hemocyanin, are pure and righteous and enlightened! Only you know the truth!
I am "that girl" your mother warned you about...
(Score: 2, Troll) by Phoenix666 on Thursday June 25 2020, @12:46AM (1 child)
hahaha man, i bet you call out your own name during sex.
get some perspective. you are not God's gift to anything.
i mean that in all kindness. i am quite fond of you, but my goodness is your ego hypertrophic these days.
Washington DC delenda est.
(Score: 2) by Azuma Hazuki on Thursday June 25 2020, @01:24PM
Projection, Phoenix. I recall our last few conversations. You got the shit kicked out of you, and your main problem is you weren't even able to keep up with said shit-kicking. You don't like your perfection being assailed--after all, you DID work hard to get where you are and put a lot more time into developing yourself than average, so how *dare* someone shit all over that, right?
But you're still badly deficient in several critical areas of development, and worse, you've fallen into a few pernicious meme-plexes, mostly due to your religion, that will make it very, very difficult to progress onward. Ironic, considering how Pride is said to be the worst sin. And now you project and rebound, accusing others of what you yourself are guilty of.
And if you're wondering, I generally call out my girlfriend's name during sex, for what should be obvious reasons.
I am "that girl" your mother warned you about...
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday June 22 2020, @03:19PM (2 children)
Did anyone READ the article? The headlines and title say one thing, but the meat of the article encourages the rights have have as American's, wants American's to pay for American's and not illegal foreigners, and ENCOURAGES discussion, free thinking, and merit-based academics.
But no. The far left reports "OMG TEXAS HATES FREE THINKING". No, the complete nut-job propagandists have completely failed to report that any Beef these Texans have is with the CURRENT state of it.
It's like saying "Eh, I don't like the new Mustang. If we go back to the original design principles, I think it'd be much better".
Left-wingers: "OMG THIS GUY HATES MUSTANGS. MUSTANG HATERS FEAR PEOPLE WHO DRIVE MUSTANGS".
From the article, For anyone commenting and didn't do anything but take a left-wingers opinion in the title of the article and failed to use comprehensive reading skills (which according to the generic non-political scientists in the article can't really be taught...):
American Identity Patriotism and Loyalty – We believe the CURRENT TEACHING of a multicultural curriculum is divisive. We favor strengthening our common American identity and loyalty instead of political correctness that nurtures alienation among racial and ethnic groups.
Basic Standards – We favor improving the quality of education for all students, including those with special needs. We support a return to the traditional basics of reading, writing, arithmetic, and citizenship with sufficient discipline to ensure learning and quality educational assessment.
Bilingual Education – We encourage non-English speaking students to transition to English within three years.
Career and Technology Education (Vocational Education) – We support reinstatement of voluntary career and technology education, including adjusting the 4x4 requirements as needed, without detracting from non-vocational program requirements.
Classroom Expenditures for Staff – We support having 80% of school district payroll expenses of professional staff of a school district be full-time classroom teachers.
College Tuition – We recommend three levels of college tuition: In-state requiring proof of Texas legal citizenship, out-of-state requiring proof of US citizenship, and nonresident legal alien. Non-US citizens should not be eligible for state or federal grants, or loans.
Controversial Theories – We support objective teaching and equal treatment of all sides of scientific theories. We believe theories such as life origins and environmental change should be taught as challengeable scientific theories subject to change as new data is produced. Teachers and students should be able to discuss the strengths and weaknesses of these theories openly and without fear of retribution or discrimination of any kind.
Early Childhood Development – We believe that parents are best suited to train their children in their early development and oppose mandatory pre-school and Kindergarten. We urge Congress to repeal government-sponsored programs that deal with early childhood development.
Knowledge-Based Education – We oppose the teaching of Higher Order Thinking Skills (HOTS) (values clarification), critical thinking skills and similar programs that are simply a relabeling of Outcome-Based Education (OBE) (mastery learning) which focus on behavior modification and have the purpose of challenging the student’s fixed beliefs and undermining parental authority.
Educational Entitlement – We encourage legislation that prohibits enrollment in free public schools of non-citizens unlawfully present in the United States.
Higher Education – We support merit-based admissions for all college and university applicants to public institutions. We further support the repeal of the 1997 Texas legislative act commonly known as the Top Ten Percent Rule. All Texas students should be given acceptance priority over out-of-state or foreign students.
Funding of Education – We urge the Legislature to direct expenditures to academics as the first priority.
(Score: 2, Insightful) by hemocyanin on Monday June 22 2020, @11:04PM (1 child)
We need Creationism as much as we need the new Woke garbage, which is to say, not at all. Unfalsifiable belief is not science nor are feelings facts or lived experiences data. The creationists and the regressive left are the same thing, with different gods, and neither side has anything real to offer humanity.
The regressive left has cherry picked identity politics from NAZIs, blind faith from evangelicals, suppression of speech and thought from authoritarians, and concepts of justice from the mob. They've chosen the most cancerous ideas possible from the worst people in history to create this juggernaut and honestly, I think they're winning. Humanity has a hard century or so ahead.
(Score: -1, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday June 23 2020, @07:34AM
Go back to sleep, Hemo. The nurse will be along shortly with your meds.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday June 22 2020, @09:21PM
And which part of the humanities courses teach "critical thinking"?
Outside of the science, engineering, and medical curriculum's, most of the degrees amount to memorizing facts without questioning those same facts, regurgitating those memorized facts on a test, and obtaining a sheet of paper attesting to your ability to memorize, without questioning, a set of facts you were handed by someone else.
Just exactly what the "business elites" want, workers who will do whatever they are told, without questioning what it is they are asked to do.
Which would be exactly counter to what the business elites want. They want the "no critical thinking occurred in obtaining this degree" certificates, which is about all a humanities degree confers.
(Score: 2, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Monday June 22 2020, @01:02AM (31 children)
What good are free thinkers when they don't even have a basic understanding of how the world works. Shouldn't you actually try to understand how the world works with science instead of believing in some old superstitious humanities sermon? It's time to leave Plato's cave whether you want it or not.
The humanities studies are for bourgeois, those rich enough to support themselves by merely dreaming away their days with nonsense, with the rest of humanity toiling away to support their idleness.
(Score: 5, Touché) by c0lo on Monday June 22 2020, @01:47AM (30 children)
What good are scientists who can't relate to society's moral/ethics/culture?
Point: it's not an either/or, need to have both types of education (which may be different from schooling).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoFiw2jMy-0
(Score: 4, Troll) by Phoenix666 on Monday June 22 2020, @02:48AM (18 children)
What good are humanities graduates who can't relate to society's moral/ethics/culture?
None of them today have delved at all into the Western canon, or any canon. They have never read Marx, or Adam Smith, or Kant, or Weber, or any of the great books. For them it's all cliff's notes with brownie points for parroting the professor's talking points. If they even get that far. They have been raised on smartphones and do not have the stamina to get through an entire news article, much less a weighty tome written by some of the smartest, most complex thinkers who have ever lived. And that goes double or triple for the great thinkers from other traditions. None of them have read Lu Xun or Rumi, or even know who they are.
The most tragic is for their pitiful excuse for education they are paying higher tuition than anyone else in history ever has.
Washington DC delenda est.
(Score: 3, Insightful) by c0lo on Monday June 22 2020, @03:01AM (6 children)
Are you suggesting the humanities produce only "graduates who can't relate to society's moral/ethics/culture"?
Or, by extension, that every STEM graduate is a success?
A exceptionally categorical claim that one. I think it requires proof.
Did you miss the "education is not equivalent with schooling"?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoFiw2jMy-0
(Score: 4, Insightful) by Phoenix666 on Monday June 22 2020, @03:21AM (5 children)
I don't require proof. Kant says I can be as categorical as I want.
I not only suggest it, I assert it (see above). Where are the brave intellectual voices speaking out in defense of the Western canon, the foundation upon which all of their intellectual inheritance is built? There are none. There are only the nihilist narcissists of the neo-Red Guards.
There was a time when the ACLU fought hard for the KKK's right to be heard. That was a principled stand to take in defense of such an odious group. But those days are long, long gone. Now it's only cancel culture, tearing down statues, and erasing history that makes us feel uncomfortable. It is totally repugnant to any who wants to claim a shred of integrity on any moral or intellectual ground.
Washington DC delenda est.
(Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Monday June 22 2020, @03:41AM (1 child)
No, Kant did not say that, and for you to misunderstand so profoundly one of the great ethical thinkers of the past couple millennia, well, it makes me think you have a degree in Engineering. Or Railroading.
(Score: 2) by Phoenix666 on Thursday June 25 2020, @12:56AM
my categorical imperative brooks no challenge. for you to misunderstand so profoundly one of the great ethical thinkers of the past couple millennia, well, it makes me think you have a degree in basket weaving. or that you went to Brown.
Washington DC delenda est.
(Score: 3, Interesting) by legont on Monday June 22 2020, @03:42AM
Exactly. Liberals betrayed the liberal idea in general and all of us in particular.
"Wealth is the relentless enemy of understanding" - John Kenneth Galbraith.
(Score: 4, Touché) by c0lo on Monday June 22 2020, @03:49AM
And you ask me to believe him. How convenient for you (grin)
You assert nothing, you only use argumentum ad verecundiam, see above (grin)
Because the society doesn't have time anymore for odious and idiotic speech - productivity is king. The corporates took care of that.
So, you either demonstrate it or GTFU (large grin)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoFiw2jMy-0
(Score: 5, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Monday June 22 2020, @05:41AM
Ah, the phonies of your day, and the Fox News, have combined in your head to give you the notion that everyone to the left of Reagan is trying to destroy western values.
Businessmen being scared to lose money angers you, so you complain about cancel culture when your old shit gets taken off the air, or down from wherever it was. Why do you hate capitalism?
Nobody erased history, that's written in books and recorded in video and audio. Statues are art.
Nobody is expecting you to respect them or acknowledge what integrity they possess, that's why they riot. Nihilism isn't a fight for change, it's a release of pent-up rage and frustration. The ~45% who don't vote mostly don't believe they can change anything. Those are your rioters. They are tired of being exploited, ignored, and blamed for what society has done to them. They are tired of seeing injustice on the street and content corruption in the halls of power. They are tired of being intimidated, robbed, raped, beaten, and murdered by the people who are supposed to protect them. Your petty complaints about a statue are just more whinging from someone so out of touch they think this is just a D/R political game.
(Score: 0, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Monday June 22 2020, @04:59AM (9 children)
Oh, dear, Phoenix666! You are exposing yourself as an aged no-college Trump supporter! Let me explain, College is different than the preconceptions of those who have never been, and especially different from the experience of those who dropped out because they were not intelligent enough to participate. Turning Point [thegrio.com]
What do you think we do, in Academia? The loss of attention span among recent college students has been noticed. If you treat a course on the History of Imperial China as if it were a video game, you will not pass! And if you treat it as if it were a differently-eyed version of Lord of the Rings, you still WILL NOT PASS! So what is your beef, Phoenix? Those of us in the trenches are dealing with real problems, and your "Get off my lawn!" and "In my day we had to walk to University, and it was uphill both ways!" is of no help whatsoever. So, get off my campus, you layman.
(Score: 2, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Monday June 22 2020, @05:26AM (7 children)
Phoenix666, through his many posts, has shown himself to be a free thinker -- "his own man."
Sometimes he expresses opinions that favor the right, and sometimes the left, owing allegiance to no one. He usually gives a good explanation as to his reasoning which includes a fair amount of empiricism. I'm not stroking his rod; I'm just pointing out we need more people here who are truly unafraid to think for themselves rather than play soldier for one side.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday June 22 2020, @06:54AM
FTFY. Granted, a step above of those capable of only double-plus-good thinking, but still so much to go.
(Score: 3, Touché) by Azuma Hazuki on Monday June 22 2020, @01:12PM
Okay, yes, but he's also not starting from a place of information. It's not enough to be a maverick; you also have to have good technique.
I am "that girl" your mother warned you about...
(Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Monday June 22 2020, @04:09PM (4 children)
To me he comes off as a typical middle class white privilege pundit. We elected a black president, so racism is abolished. He somehow argued all of the Trump talking points about how the economy was in shambles and Trump saved us all, ignoring EVERY economic metric that showed the economy on a 10 year boom rolling along with the momentum of a supertanker (this well before the covid thing). He argues every industrial effluent and pollutant should be ignored because, well I don't know why, because we've lived with smog before. And he is fully onboard with "only pussies are scared of covid", even pushing the "Chinese virus" and "Wuhan virus" tag for a very long time.
This is your idea of "his own man"? It just sounds like your run of the mill Fox News viewer to me. Critical thinking requires critical thinking, not just supporting contrarian views and thinking "wow, what a rebel!"
(Score: 2) by Phoenix666 on Tuesday June 23 2020, @04:54AM (2 children)
Wow, a whole sub-thread dedicated to moi. I have never been anyone's hobgoblin before. It is quite flattering, but I don't deserve it.
If you hate me because I have challenged you, then you're welcome. The best professors I ever had were fucking assholes; and I hated them so much I worked three times harder to show them up. Maybe I haven't challenged you and you just think I'm an asshole. That's OK, because you're right: I am an asshole.
If you think you have me all wrapped up in a tidy little box, though, you're wrong. In fact I think a lot of you guys are wrong to do the same to a lot of our community members. How many of you guys dismissed MDC out of hand? How many have dismissed aristarchus or Runaway out of hand? Not a few of you. As far as I see it, we're all diamonds in the rough. It's why I keep coming back.
Anyway, I'm gonna go print out this little tussle and hang it on my wall and laugh. Love you Soylentils!
Washington DC delenda est.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday June 23 2020, @04:03PM
That would indeed be more useful than your contributions here.
(Score: 1) by RandomFactor on Tuesday June 23 2020, @04:41PM
Quoting Cato the Elder in one's tagline adds street cred.
В «Правде» нет известий, в «Известиях» нет правды
(Score: 1) by khallow on Saturday June 27 2020, @04:12AM
And here we go with another rant about someone's perceptions that has nothing to do with reality. "typical middle class white privilege pundit", followed immediately by lip service to anti-racism, and not a trace of sarcasm.
The obvious rebuttal being employment [bls.gov].
(Score: 2) by Phoenix666 on Tuesday June 23 2020, @05:04AM
I know very well what you do in academia, though I have not paid much attention to the inside baseball stuff the last few years. If you guys really still are wrapped up in post-modernism then you have my sympathy. Nihilism is depressing and self-defeating. And if you're in the trenches in that environment, trying to educate Millennials with their strident narcissism, ugh, it doesn't bear thinking about. God bless you for what you do.
Washington DC delenda est.
(Score: 1, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Monday June 22 2020, @08:27AM
None? I can assure you that many of my students have read those authors you mention. One I met with not too long ago has more Kant memorized in the original German than you've ever read in your life and has definitely written more peer-reviewed articles about him. You also seem to underestimate how many foreign students come from other countries and how many students are interested in their immigrant culture.
(Score: 0, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Monday June 22 2020, @03:17AM
Cretins who do not even understand that the gadgets they play with are not some kind of wild fruit, are exactly the problem the humanities "education" created.
Scientists need the society much less than the society needs scientists, but NEITHER need parasiting humanities students.
(Score: 4, Interesting) by MostCynical on Monday June 22 2020, @03:41AM (4 children)
"History and Philosophy of Science" was a unit, and is now available as a Major [sydney.edu.au] at at least one Australian university.
Perhaps what is missing from both the debate external to universities, and the teaching within is perspective and an appreciation of the 'other'..
It should also be noted that there is an element of competition/capitalism in the way course fees are set - the more popular courses (often/usually, the ones that lead to more lucrative employment) are more expensive than the less popular courses. No one wants to be a teacher or a nurse, so they are cheap(er) courses.
"I guess once you start doubting, there's no end to it." -Batou, Ghost in the Shell: Stand Alone Complex
(Score: 1, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Monday June 22 2020, @04:09AM
Actually, from what I saw as a college student in the 1980s the courses that tended to be the most popular were the ones that were easy A grades; that tended to be a tip off (for me) on classes to avoid because I knew they would be vapid. The exceptions were classes in computer science; those were nearly impossible to get into because everyone perceived them to be a ticket to a lucrative career.
(Score: 2) by fido_dogstoyevsky on Monday June 22 2020, @04:51AM (2 children)
Pretty sure they're both a bit pricy, and I've met quite a few people who want to be teachers or nurses.
It's NOT a conspiracy... it's a plot.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday June 22 2020, @05:51AM (1 child)
A lot of young people want to be teachers and nurses, and they're encouraged because we always need more of them. We wouldn't need more if they paid decent wages and gave something resembling a normal schedule instead of 12/6 or worse. Capitalists have been pushing their failures to train and retain talent into the government's hands for too long - let the market fix itself for once.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday June 22 2020, @09:16AM
Both those jobs sound interesting, fun, and like they'll pay well enough. And then you get the job and are treated like shit with horrible support systems. And then everyone looks around and wonders why the turnover is so high and retention so low.
(Score: 3, Interesting) by fido_dogstoyevsky on Monday June 22 2020, @04:44AM (3 children)
I'm a retired scientist* who never had any trouble relating to humanities graduates and sharing intelligent (and I like to think mutually enlightening) discussions with them. However I never felt any sense of connection to humanities students - it was like we had no common language or point of view.
Double plus true.
The one bit of potentail good is that it MAY result in all degrees costing students the same. It would mean the humanities students subsidising science students, but I see that as the lesser evil; uniersity fees should only be high enough to dissuade most timewasters taking places from people who want the education (disclaimer - I attended university before hex** fees were introduced).
*Who would have studied science even if there was pressure towards humanities because it's science that really floats my boat.
**Not a misspelling
It's NOT a conspiracy... it's a plot.
(Score: 2) by c0lo on Monday June 22 2020, @06:48AM (2 children)
I am a still active software engineer - it's still under the Technology, in STEM - after graduating physics, who worked with another one that graduated history, in Australia**. Had absolutely no problems communicating on the job with him.
** before that, in the country of origin (somewhere in East Europe), the situation was more frequent after the communism fell - one had to do something, so learning skills on their own was more of a norm than an exception. In Australia, the experience is singular.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoFiw2jMy-0
(Score: 2) by fido_dogstoyevsky on Monday June 22 2020, @07:09AM (1 child)
I've found it easy to communicate with humanities graduates in work and social situations, the divide is at the student level; would not surprise me to hear the same about science students.
It's NOT a conspiracy... it's a plot.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday June 22 2020, @07:45AM
It's the "student" part. Young people are ignorant of many things, often including their own ignorance, because they haven't been alive for long, and most of their life has been spent in schools. If you're even slightly more informed, and not letting your hormones do the thinking, it's no wonder you couldn't stand them.
(Score: 1) by khallow on Monday June 22 2020, @01:25PM
A hell of a lot more good than a humanities graduate who can't do the same.
I think this emphasis is more on the mark. The formal schooling has deviated substantially from education due to ideological rot and a great deal of corruption. It's worse outside of the STEM fields, but no field is safe from it.
(Score: 3, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Monday June 22 2020, @01:31AM (16 children)
Publicly claim there are only two sexes, women and men are not physically equal, and feelings never override facts, and you'll find out how free thinking your free-thinkers really are.
(Score: 0, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Monday June 22 2020, @01:54AM
The extra genders only exist in your paranoid delusions and confused feelings. You're trying to institutionalize violence against all women. Your kind demands from all women, "papieren bitte."
At gunpoint where you've passed bathroom laws.
Those are the facts.
(Score: 5, Insightful) by Azuma Hazuki on Monday June 22 2020, @01:16PM (14 children)
The first is incorrect, and there is plenty of genetic and somatic evidence to prove it. The second is true but trivial, and only your strawman acedemics would say such a thing. The third is demonstrably false as any sociologist, primatologist, psychologist, and a fair number of med students can tell you.
Say these things, and you *will* get shouted down, for exactly that reason. "Free thinking" does not mean "my ignorance is just as functional, adaptive, important, and acceptable as someone else's knowledge." Get that through your skull.
I am "that girl" your mother warned you about...
(Score: 0, Flamebait) by Anonymous Coward on Monday June 22 2020, @03:00PM (11 children)
There are people who are born deaf or blind.
Do we then conclude that Homo sapiens is not a being who depends on his or her sense of sound and sight?
If people can be born with an extra finger, then why do we say people have 5 fingers on their hand?
The arguments about homosexuals and transgenders are that any exceptional individual invalidates the general premise. This assumes we count an aberration or malformed individual as representative of the species. If this is true, then we must do away with the concept of malformation or defect altogether. We are moving this way already.
They removed homosexuality as a disorder from the psychiatric manual. Trangenderism (gender dysphoria) is still in it, but how much longer before political pressure causes that too to be removed? The politicians have spoken...
The liberal world has done all it can to dissociate sexual intercourse from reproduction.
It's no coincidence that acceptance of homosexuality as normal has grown. The purpose of sex organs is for pleasure, they say. Therefore there is nothing defective in being sexually attracted to the same sex, since you can pleasure each other. Trangenderism is far nuttier than simple homosexuality since many of the transgender people mutilate their own bodies to conform to their diseased mental self image.
(Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Monday June 22 2020, @11:07PM
Transgenderism and gender dysphoria are not the same thing. You can be transgender without having gender dysphoria and vice versa. Since you don't know that basic fact, it illustrates the understanding you have of the rest of it.
(Score: 3, Insightful) by Azuma Hazuki on Tuesday June 23 2020, @01:09AM (7 children)
You know you're talking to the site's resident lesbian right? :)
You're also missing the point, and I suspect deliberately: nature "intends" certain things, but because nature isn't conscious and its replication mechanisms aren't perfect, errors happen. Yes, I am fully aware that I am technically an error and my germ line ends with me, *and I do not care.* The point is that nature isn't moral or even truly intentional. Mistakes happen. Am I "normal?" No, but neither am I some sort of evil existence. I just am.
You seem to be following a very zero-sum line of thinking here, and it's one I've seen people trot out when the subject at hand is race, sexuality, ethnicity, just about anything. It looks to me like you're assuming that tolerance and lack of bigotry means you will necessarily lose something, some status or privilege or power. Why make that assumption? This world is absolutely huge; there's enough room in it for everyone so long as we aren't hurting other people. And the word "normal" pops up a lot. What is "normal" to you, and why does "abnormal" in itself necessarily mean bad?
And for whatever this is worth, I didn't wake up one morning and go "you know a strict vagitarian diet sounds like a good idea." My mother told me, when I came out to her in junior year of high school, that she'd suspected since I was *four.* How that works is a bit of a mystery. Apparently I kept saying I wanted to marry various Disney princesses?
Anyway, one of the best arguments from personal experience I have for this is I knew I was liked girls before I knew what gay was. We all got "the talk" in my family early on, and I'd always assumed I'd get married to a man and have babies because This Is A Thing Which Is Done (TM). We weren't told about gay people, though. I had no idea that was a thing until age 12, and even then I thought it was something that only applied to men, a choice they made, and something they did purely to spite women, kind of like an extended "eww, girls have cooties" thing.
Going from childhood to adolescence, I kept wondering why I didn't feel the things for boys my friends and my sister apparently did, but just chalked it up to being a late bloomer, not helped by being very shy and very deaf. I also figured that feelings for other girls and women, real or fictional, which in hindsight were *very* obviously attraction were admiration or aspiration or even jealousy. The concept of same-sex attraction between women as its own thing was simply not on my radar. At that point, I thought *everyone* whether male or female wanted to hug and kiss and touch women as a matter of course (because they're so pretty!), and that eventually every woman started feeling some nebulous urge along the lines of "it's time for a family" and started a relationship with a man based purely on pragmatic terms. I figured things would continue on as they did before afterwards, just with a family involved.
Actually learning that 1) first off, no, most girls do NOT want to touch and kiss other girls, especially not on the lips, no, not even best friends, 2) "gay" is a thing that happens to women too, and 3) I was not in the least interested in boys was very jarring. The realization hit around 9th grade when I realized I was feeling things for a close friend that matched descriptions of a woman falling in love with a man to the letter, and caused no small amount of internal angst. It took me almost two years of frantic research and questioning before I realized what I was.
Does this help at all?
I am "that girl" your mother warned you about...
(Score: 0, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday June 23 2020, @02:01PM (6 children)
No hatred towards you for being gay.
I even supported gay marriage.
I support letting people live their own lives.
What I do not support is the slippery slope of normalizing the idea that any gender related idea a person may have is normal and to be promoted especially to children. The transgender thing is off the charts crazy as is encouraging parents to mutilate the bodies of their pre-pubescent children irreversibly. Gay acceptance led to gay promotion led to promotion of what I just said. Transgenderism in particular is mental illness, and it's now state sanctioned. Pure politics, not science.t
(Score: 3, Informative) by Azuma Hazuki on Wednesday June 24 2020, @01:51AM (5 children)
I admit I'm looking at trans* issues from an outside point of view, but having three separate FtM friends, *all* of whom are doing much better living as men, I have to disagree with you on this. Those three are also three of the nicest men I've ever met and we still keep in regular contact.
Why this fixation on "mutilating" by the way? I can't help but think when you say transgender you are explicitly and exclusively referring to trans*women,* and have some kind of residual castration fear driving your thinking. Also, from what little I know about this stuff, kids who think they might be trans* get puberty blockers, not surgery, don't they? I'm under the impression that you have to be at least the age of emancipation to get surgery done.
Finally, please consider that most of the anti-trans* arguments you're using here, in particular the "it's mental illness" one, are the exact same things deployed full force against plain old gay and lesbian people not so very long ago. I realize sexual orientation and gender identity aren't the same thing, but given the scope and intent of those tired old dehumanizing "arguments," the difference becomes mostly academic.
That "gay promotion" thing is especially telling, as it's loaded with projection. The kind of people who trot that one out usually follow on with "brainwashing!" and "adults twisting vulnerable little kids' miiiiiinds!!1111one" (as you did up above), as if this is something like religion. The irony is palpable there, as religious indoctrination is precisely the kind of abuse you're screaming about and inflicted on children by adults in precisely this manner.
And why not get to know some of these people? I came dangerously close to being a TERF in college and frankly have not had too many positive experiences with MtFs, but I do know a few and listening to them and their stories has changed my thinking somewhat.
I am "that girl" your mother warned you about...
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday June 24 2020, @05:30PM (4 children)
Is the question one of mental illness or of what should be indulged? I mean, not even really playing devil's advocate how would you define a mental illness? One of the most normal definitions would be something that impairs your normal functioning as a human. And what is our normal functioning? Well literally the only reason that humans persist is because of reproduction. Homosexuality does not preclude this but it does greatly decrease the chance of successful procreation. And so in my mind homosexuality is a mental illness. So I think the question is one of indulgence or not.
You'll generally find all the ethics the old religions teach were largely about helping to ensure successful reproduction paired with a stable society. Each and every person that was born was a benefit to these societies. Now a days that's no longer so true, and in many cases each person born is an increasingly large burden on society. And while I think there is obviously a divide between gays and normal folks on a variety of levels, that divide is not inherently especially destructive beyond a possible gender imbalance in society if homosexuals are not roughly evenly spread between the genders. And so I see no problem with indulging it, though I would not encourage it.
Transgenders? Many transgenders want to try to pass as the gender they adopt. I think this is generally going to be destructive in many ways. There are obviously immense differences between a man and a woman beyond what can be changed with a bit of hack and slash and drugs. And there are numerous other issues. For instance when somebody is looking for a partner, what are they looking for? I mean not at first but in general you are looking for somebody who you may eventually raise a family with and carry on both your genes with. It's not just to find some place to stick their dick. With transgenders this is not possible. And so their "passing" could be quite disruptive to society. But their not passing is also destructive to society. This [youtube.com] video is almost like a skit from some comedy show. Except, it's real life. Indulging transgender stuff requires pretending that some guy who is clearly is a guy, is a woman. It's sort like an enforced game of The Emperor's New Clothes. That's not cool.
There is also the issue of the individuals themselves. People who claim to be transgender also frequently have numerous other mental illnesses - ones where calling them mental illness is not so 'edgy'. They also have extremely high rates of drug abuse, suicide, criminality, and other issues. The typical argument against this is that that's because they're not accepted by society yet this runs into two problems: (1) the same is also true in countries where they are generally much more accepted and (2) you don't see anything on a remotely comparable scale from the countless other groups that have been socially ostracized throughout history, including homosexuals. And on just a personal level, I've run into quite a lot of transgenders in the software world and, to keep it short, those guys are mostly just awful and very screwed up people. There are also a disproportionate number of transgenders that then immediately race to compete against women in physical sports, where they tend to dominate them in a plainly absurd fashion. See: Fallon Fox [wikipedia.org]. Goes transgender, decides to become an MMA fighter at the spritely age of 38, starts crushing with minimal training and was headed for the top echelons until women started refusing to fight him. In sports such as weight lifting, trans are now dominating.
It's because of these considerations (among many others) that lead me to believe that transgenders should of course be treated as a mental disorder, but what really matters - one that is not indulged.
---
And similar to the above poster, I'm referring exclusively to mtf's here. The vast majority of trans are mtfs (which again is further indicative that there's something unusual going on here) and, to my knowledge, I've never met a ftm.
(Score: 2) by Azuma Hazuki on Thursday June 25 2020, @01:37PM (3 children)
All this boils down to "I think trans* people are icky" with a thin layering of what may be characterized as a secular approximation to Catholic natural-law theology. That's...weak. Oh, right, and some whataboutism concerning transwomen in sports, and a denial that FtMs exist because you haven't personally (that you know of!) met any.
My hypothesis about why there seem to be fewer transmen than transwomen out there is that 1) it's a lot easier for a woman to pass as male than the other way around (see "Sweet Polly Oliver" for historical examples) and 2) society seems to have somewhat less of a problem with butch women than femme men. I would bet there are a lot of stone butches out there who are actually FtM but settled on that because it's "close enough" and a lot less dangerous. Similar to how I don't wear pride symbols and just kind of let everyone assume I'm straight in public because I'm femme.
Regarding sports...well, I'm not a sports fan so on the surface of it I could not care less. But isn't the obvious solution just doing hormone testing for every athlete, and if anyone's above a certain testosterone level, disqualify them? Ciswomen can end up out of range too, just so you know.
I am "that girl" your mother warned you about...
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday June 25 2020, @06:47PM (2 children)
I'd look more to Stoics than the Catholics. When one starts declaring a human title, such as kings, to have a distinct place in the natural order of existence, you've long since lost the thread. But in any case I'm not sure how you git icky as a synopsis out of that. My early experiences with trans were incredibly positive and that stuck with me for years. My views changed over time entirely due to to experience and research.
The sports topic I mentioned because I think it's interesting but because it also mirrors so many aspects in society. They already do testosterone testing, and men are only allowed to compete against women when their t-levels are below a certain point. Do you know why people on PCP seem to have super-human abilities? It's kind of neat. The drug can't just suddenly give you strength you weren't already physically capable of. You, even a female, already have more than enough bone and muscle mass to basically destroy yourself. You can easily lift things heavy enough to break your bones or engage in sufficiently strenuous exercise to rip your muscles to shreds. The reason you can't do that is because your brain forces your body to stop at what it deems a safe threshold.
All PCP does (in this regard) is turns off that threshold detector. Suddenly you can leap from several stories and keep running, a broken leg or two notwithstanding, take on multiple guys with ease, and more. This [youtube.com] video shows what one guy can do when on PCP. Getting hit by two tasers simultaneously, baton to the thigh, a pile pepper spray straight to the eyes? Nothing. And the cops know what's up - the reason they jump about 5 feet back anytime he starts resisting. He could easily break any of them like a twig.
The point I make with the above is that it's not so easy to determine what makes one person (or gender) what they are, even in the most obvious fashion of physical ability. There are obvious things like bone density, testosterone levels, musculature, etc but there is also equally obviously other factors that result in the sum whole. Recent research [sci-hub.tw] (published in BMJ, sci-hubbed to remove paywall) indicates that the men will retain, relative to women, a significant portion of their previous physical ability. But do you really need research to show this? Trans make up some ridiculously small percent of competitors yet they are dramatically over-represened as a world champions in an increasing variety of sports.
Should we continue to allow men to participate as women it's likely that real women's sports will die and be replaced by men. I don't think that's good for anybody. Women's sports were introduced to encourage and enable women to participate. Now that invitation is going to gradually be replaced because we want to allow men to call themselves women. I mean this is *stupid*. And I think this has analogs to every area in society. Men pretending to be women is socially destructive for negligible, if any, gain.
--
As for FtMs. I never suggested they didn't exist. Obviously they do, but they are going to have a negligible if any negative impact on society. Women, in general, are the ones treated by society as needing a helping hand. As one slightly bemusing example women already outnumber men in universities by a ratio of about 3:2, yet you'd be labeled all sorts of stuff if you ever suggested we need to get more men into universities. I'd also mock people suggesting as such. And we generally continue to preach the need for getting more women into universities. *Shrug*, just how we're wired. If women are happy giving up the little perks and joining the other side, then more power to 'em - I'm sure I'd enjoy having a beer with them.
(Score: 2) by Azuma Hazuki on Friday June 26 2020, @01:45AM (1 child)
This may be one of the most :bro: things I've ever read 9_9
So in a nutshell, you're worried about sports, and you think women have it pretty sweet compared to men. What is it like to have that much money and that little life experience that you can say stuff like that with a straight face?
I am "that girl" your mother warned you about...
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday June 26 2020, @06:04AM
Now if you think that's an accurate representation of what I said, then clearly we're both wasting our time here.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday June 23 2020, @02:22AM (1 child)
Says the tightly circumcised protestant. Ermagherd, genital mutilation! Except the one I have a fetish for is ok!
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday June 23 2020, @04:58PM
You are hearing voices in your head and seeing things. Sounds like schizophrenia.
But since you brought it up, all my sons are uncircumcised -- a conscious decision on my part.
There is nothing wrong with a healthy body.
(Score: 1, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday June 24 2020, @03:19AM (1 child)
The second is not trivial at all, at least not if you listen to a lot of women. They claim they need protection from males, need safe spaces, are afraid to walk down the street, are too fearful to speak out for themselves, etc... because any random male can dominate them at any moment. Then those same people tell everyone that sexual differences don't matter and bringing them up makes you sexist. You can't have it both ways. It's either a problem or it isn't, it can't be both.
(Score: 0, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday June 24 2020, @05:40AM
Why do we not have a -1 Rapist mod?
(Score: 1, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Monday June 22 2020, @03:29AM (31 children)
Math is racist. STEM is basically Nazism. We need free thinkers that can't add two and two or understand basic logic. Who needs nurses when we can have experts in gender studies?
https://money.cnn.com/2016/09/06/technology/weapons-of-math-destruction/index.html [cnn.com]
https://www.chicagotribune.com/lifestyles/sns-tns-bc-edu-math-racist-20191010-story.html [chicagotribune.com]
(Score: 1, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Monday June 22 2020, @04:49AM (30 children)
The Leftist humanities majors lack the IQ to understand and do math.
It is objectively that simple. Their forte is reading and writing stories. You know, made up tales.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday June 22 2020, @05:02AM (29 children)
And what do you think math is?
Euclid: Axiom: assume a straight line is the shortest distance between two points.
Me: Cool story, bro!
(to AC, you are an idiot, the shortest distance between two neurons.)
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday June 22 2020, @05:10AM (28 children)
I rest my case with your post. Q.E.D.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday June 22 2020, @12:59PM
But you do not know what Q.E.D. stands for? Illiterate bumpkin!
(Score: 2) by Azuma Hazuki on Monday June 22 2020, @01:17PM (26 children)
You do know what an axiom is though, don't you? It's the closest thing to a just-so story you can respectably have: in a formal system of logic, it doesn't need to be verified or tested by other arguments. The only way to remove an axiom is to see whether it gives rise to theorems that contradict it, i.e., if it leads to making statements that deny it while using it.
I am "that girl" your mother warned you about...
(Score: 1) by khallow on Monday June 22 2020, @02:09PM (25 children)
Here. [soylentnews.org] And you weren't looking for paradoxes when you wrote that.
(Score: 2) by Azuma Hazuki on Tuesday June 23 2020, @12:34AM (24 children)
Was there a point to linking to a post from the past in which I said exactly the same thing I just said...? You baffle me sometimes.
I am "that girl" your mother warned you about...
(Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday June 23 2020, @02:40AM
You used different words, so it must mean different things.</sarcasm>
"Gotcha games" only work when people actually get you enough to "get" you.
(Score: 2, Interesting) by khallow on Tuesday June 23 2020, @04:23AM (22 children)
You didn't. That's the point.
I find it interesting that you completely gloss over "And you weren't looking for paradoxes when you wrote that." There's a huge difference between rejecting axioms because they lead to paradoxes and rejecting axioms merely because you claim they lead to conclusions you don't like.
(Score: 3, Insightful) by Azuma Hazuki on Tuesday June 23 2020, @04:46AM (21 children)
Yeah, no. You're flailing about in the weeds here. Axioms, again, can only be destruct-tested by the theorems they give rise to. This is why I try to keep only those axioms which must be asserted in order to deny them: identity, excluded middle, and noncontradiction.
I am "that girl" your mother warned you about...
(Score: 4, Insightful) by aristarchus on Tuesday June 23 2020, @07:47AM (10 children)
It's alright. khallow does not understand the difference between paradox and contradiction, that is all. Not totally clear on axioms or corollaries, either. But the point remains, any self-consistent system that does not produce a reductio ad absurdum, such as our khallow here, is based on posited assumptions, or what we might call "plausible fictions". Some, no doubt, think that such things are the very reality they seek, since they cannot conceive of any other, but a lack of imagination is no basis for science.
(Score: 3, Interesting) by Azuma Hazuki on Tuesday June 23 2020, @01:33PM (9 children)
To be fair, I do believe there is an underlying objective reality of *some* description. There has to be, even if our access to it is "through a glass darkly," else we wouldn't expect the amount of uniformity we see in day to day life.
It's true we can't disprove hard solipsism as an alternative explanation for that, but it's also trivial, at least pragmatically-speaking, in that it makes no real difference.
I am "that girl" your mother warned you about...
(Score: 5, Interesting) by aristarchus on Tuesday June 23 2020, @08:08PM (8 children)
Well, it is turtles all the way down! But seriously, this is an Aristotelian phobia: infinite regresses cannot be real, because then without a starting point, we would never get to where we are! Of course you recognize this as one of Aquinas' Five Ways to prove the existence of god.
But since Phoenix666 brought up Kant, it always seemed to me that he was just trying to show that people should not speculate about what they cannot know. We have knowledge of objects in the world as the appear to us, as phenomena, not as they are in reality. Kant insisted on this underlying reality, but said all we can know of things in-themselves, or Dingen an sich [wikipedia.org] is that that they are, while everything about them for us belongs to the categories of the understanding. So science is phenomenology.
Later Germans, [wikipedia.org] like Fichte and Hegel, realized that if the Ding an sich was without content or information, it really was nothing, and the went full-on Idealist.
And this is why Buddhism is interesting. The Buddha realized the truth of reality: Dukka, and Sunyata. So he came up with the middle path. The middle path is often mistaten for the middle way between the extremes of sensual indulgence and self-mortification, or as it said on the Temple at Delphi, "μηδέν άγαν", but really it is the middle between eternalism (sastavadava) and nihilism or annihilationism (ucchedavada). When you examine reality, you realize it has layers, like an ogre, an onion, or a banana tree. But when you get to the center, there is nothing there, it is empty, sunyata.
The Mūlamadhyamakakārikā [wikipedia.org]locus classicus of this position. But just because there is not independent self-being (svabhava) of reality, does not mean that the are nothing. Buddhism rejects nihilism as well. So what is, is what it is, but only because of causation, and this is the Buddhist doctrine of Pratītyasamutpāda [wikipedia.org], dependent co-origination. So "what is" does matter, but not as much as some think, and to get all attached to reality will just get your underwear all up in a bunch.
As many have often noted, this is strangely similar to the ideas of Greek scepticism, or even American pragmatism. So what if the world is not real? As the Zen saying goes, I can still carry water and chop wood. Sorry for the length of this response. It is just that reality really bugs me. As Nagarjuna says:
[Westerhoff, Jan, Nagarjuna's Madhyamaka: A Philosophical Introduction, Oxford University Press, 2009, p. 47.]
Reducing the Humanities in favor of the realist delusions of STEM is a really, really bad idea.
(Score: 1) by khallow on Wednesday June 24 2020, @01:16AM (2 children)
To the contrary, the infinite regress is the starting point. Instead it is unusual to have a starting point that doesn't have an earlier starting point.
(Score: 2, Insightful) by aristarchus on Wednesday June 24 2020, @01:25AM (1 child)
Aristotle's bugabear, khallow, not mine, so you need not argue in bad faith. But, haven't read your Summa Theologica, have you? This is why we need to encourage humanities study, not dissuade from it.
(Score: 0, Redundant) by khallow on Wednesday June 24 2020, @12:46PM
You mentioned it, not Aristotle.
Is anyone, including you, claiming I am arguing in bad faith in that observation?
(Score: 2) by Azuma Hazuki on Wednesday June 24 2020, @01:31AM
More of this! You may be able to rescue your "brand" and your reputation yet, especially if you consistently use this to dunk on the deserving.
I am "that girl" your mother warned you about...
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday June 24 2020, @04:19AM (3 children)
You just built a bridge for me. Whenever someone talks about the Ding an Sich and the modern understanding of noumenology/phenomenology, Heidegger shouldn't be that far behind. Naturally that was in my head until you went the Buddhist route. However, Heidegger's phenomenology in many ways traces its way to utility. A thing to humans is its use to humans. One problem, as he put it before the coopting, is that people have Dasein and it is easy to get lost in the solitude of the self and forget about the relationships with others. Having lost sight of that in others, you necessarily descend into viewing others or "others" through their utility, with no other ontology or axiology. That, as critics have pointed out, directly leads into literal Nazism. Thus, when people literally scream how they see Nazis or related thoughts in modern political groups, they are directly or indirectly denouncing the degree of nützenkeit über alles ideals being expressed.
(Score: 3, Informative) by aristarchus on Wednesday June 24 2020, @05:07AM (2 children)
Well, then, you should appreciate Nishitani Kenji, the Japanese Heideggarian. But we are drifting further and further away from Australia, and the . . . OMG, they have blocked the Bruces Sketch, so that no one can realize the true bankruptcy of the Australian system (term used loosely) of Higher (also, loosely) Education (mutandis mutandum). Short introduction. [youtube.com] And of course, the "Philosophers Song." [youtube.com].
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday June 24 2020, @08:15AM (1 child)
If you mean Keiji Nishitani, his Religion and Nothingness has been on my list for awhile but something else always seems to come up. Perhaps I should redouble my efforts or change its priority in the face of yet another recommendation.
(Score: 1, Redundant) by aristarchus on Wednesday June 24 2020, @08:30AM
Yes, sorry about the typo. The Kyoto School is a bit long in the tooth by now, but I am not one to criticize anyone for their age.
(Score: 1, Informative) by khallow on Tuesday June 23 2020, @01:36PM (4 children)
The above is not part of the libertarian bedrock, but the usual Azuma straw man.
A theorem is not merely asserting some absurd result and then claiming without even the slightest effort at reasoning that the result comes from a particular label (no axiom in sight even).
(Score: 2) by Azuma Hazuki on Wednesday June 24 2020, @01:26AM (3 children)
Where did I say this was an axiom or even a theorem? This, Hallow, is a repeated observation. Just look at the lobbying "revolving door" in US politics (and elsewhere, I'm sure).
It looks to me like you don't know the definition of words like axiom or theorem. ...and it also looks to me like you're another asspained "small-L-libertarian" annoyed someone is showing how his worldview is the equivalent of sitting on a tree branch and sawing it off at the connection to the trunk :)
I am "that girl" your mother warned you about...
(Score: 2, Touché) by khallow on Wednesday June 24 2020, @03:12AM (2 children)
You wrote:
(Score: 2) by Azuma Hazuki on Wednesday June 24 2020, @03:34AM (1 child)
Uh...you're not so good at reading, are you? I didn't say libertarians believe mixing government and business is part of their ideological bedrock. Was there a missing comma in there somewhere or something? I know I tend to write very complex multi-clause sentences.
What are you even trying to do anyway?
I am "that girl" your mother warned you about...
(Score: 2, Interesting) by khallow on Wednesday June 24 2020, @12:18PM
Nobody said you did. Not even you.
But what you did claim was that this straw man of perfect separation of business and government was both an "assumption" and "ideological bedrock" of libertarians' beliefs. That's an axiom, folks. And a logic fail since, as implied by my use of the phrase "straw man", the axiom doesn't actually exist or is implied in libertarian belief systems. Among other things, keep in mind that most of libertarianism started in reaction to systems which readily merged business with government in a variety of ways (particularly, Fascism, Communism, and the welfare state).
Just imagine how much progress we could have made in foundational mathematics, if every time someone came up with an interesting list of axioms, other not very helpful people then insist that they also must including a bunch of contradictory axioms that automatically break the system.
(Score: 1) by khallow on Tuesday June 23 2020, @01:49PM (4 children)
(Score: 2) by Azuma Hazuki on Wednesday June 24 2020, @01:29AM (3 children)
Wrong again! Nowhere in there did I say stating an opinion was "as violent" as a physical response to it, just that there are more forms of violence than what we think of (physical harm) when we use the word.
You're amazing, you know that? You not only keep dragging up these old posts where I've said something interesting or useful, but you keep attacking them, badly, and showing everyone where and how your thinking fails. And even better, you keep replying to me when you do it, meaning I get an alert, meaning I get to swoop in and rip your bullshit apart in public. :)
Dear and fluffy Hallow, as Ari would call you, you are your own worst enemy and one of the single best arguments against "libertarianism" I have ever run across, whether in cyberspace or meatspace. Please, keep doing this. Keep exposing yourself for the gutless, brainless, gormless, amoral fraud of a man you are.
I am "that girl" your mother warned you about...
(Score: 0, Troll) by khallow on Wednesday June 24 2020, @03:38AM (2 children)
After all, what's the indirect violence in the thread or my post that you replied to? Are you not writing in support of OriginalOwner's comment where direct violence was discussed?
Fortunately, you made it clear later:
Yes, indeed it was an equating of opinions with direct violence all along.
(Score: 2) by Azuma Hazuki on Thursday June 25 2020, @01:17PM (1 child)
Okay, I see your problem...it's not that you can't comprehend what you're reading, it's that you won't. You have an agenda and will do any violence (hah!) to any written or spoken word in order to further that agenda.
Your problem, in short, is that you're a bullshitter. And as I've said before at least once on here, if the liar is Truth's rapist, then the bullshitter is Truth's obese, impotent, waddling pimp, unable even to appreciate her for what she is and seeing her only as a means to an end. The most amazing part of all this is that you really think most people here haven't figured you out yet, that you think you're fooling anyone but yourself.
Even ACs are rolling their eyes at you and pointing out how full of shit you are.
I am "that girl" your mother warned you about...
(Score: -1, Troll) by khallow on Friday June 26 2020, @12:17AM
The AC wrote:
In response, OriginalOwner (who also was was the source of the story and the WSWS blurb) wrote:
In other words, a dumbass threat of violence, though obviously not to be implemented by OriginalOwner. That is when I wrote:
Which fits here.
What was the point of that first sentence? Looks to me like you were insinuating something earlier in the thread was violent as well. That's a typical conflation of wrongs like rape and dressing provocatively. I think it's telling that you never explain yourself then or now. You just claim that my interpretation is wrong somehow.
As I noted earlier, we don't have to guess about your motives. You later wrote:
So my opinion is equivalent to snuff porn. That's your nuanced view of "indirect violence".
And look, you're not disagreeing now either.
Sorry, you got caught again. Notice how you don't even try to rationalize those posts or engage in honest debate. It's all DARVO-style attack on the messenger. I think it's telling that you can't even be bothered to say that (much explain why) I'm incorrect or wrong.
They do that to everyone, including you. Doesn't mean a thing. There's a lot of idiots on the internet. You're not alone.
(Score: 0, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Monday June 22 2020, @05:04AM (4 children)
You don't find the notion of free thinkers to be somewhat trivially existentially disproven? Let's take a recent graduate of gender studies or racial studies in the US. Exactly how much diversity of view do you think there will be?
Or in our brave new world, do we categorize "free thinkers" to be those who all think near identically?
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday June 22 2020, @05:17AM
Or as I used to say about those folks while I was attending university:
"I'm a nonconformist, and so are all my friends."
(Score: 2) by DeathMonkey on Monday June 22 2020, @05:05PM (2 children)
Take a recent graduate of physics, how many of them are "free thinkers" about the existence of gravity?
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday June 22 2020, @11:45PM
All of them if they majored in critical theory.
(Score: 1) by khallow on Tuesday June 23 2020, @04:27AM
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday June 22 2020, @06:39AM (4 children)
If a free thinker is in debt for the rest of their life to pay for a degree that does not make them employable, then they might be free in thought, but not free financially. In which case, does that not prove that they suck as a "free thinker"? I wonder what the rate of depression is by major.
True free thinkers living in the information age only need some free time on their hands to research philosophy on their own volition. If someone needs to pay someone else to direct their thoughts, then I doubt that they have earned the title of "free thinker." "I have never let my schooling interfere with my education" -- Mark Twain
(Score: 2) by Azuma Hazuki on Monday June 22 2020, @01:21PM
Indeed. I have a STEM degree and work in a wholly unrelated STEM field, and spent over 15 years teaching *myself* large swathes of logic, philosophy, comparative religion, moral philosophy, epistemology, apologetics, counter-apologetics, and heaven knows what else, for this exact reason. (Oh, and the field I work in is all self-taught too; I'm a pharmacy tech, one whose pharmacy manager says I know more organic chem than he does, but have a degree in earth sciences).
One really does need to learn sciences and humanities both. And, ironically, the fall of humanities education at colleges is *entirely* due to the "third wheel" in all of this, the business/economics types, who have neither science nor humanity to their name...! And yet somehow run everything.
I am "that girl" your mother warned you about...
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday June 22 2020, @02:49PM (2 children)
They are free to initiate a revolution to bring forth an anarcho-communist paradise.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday June 23 2020, @02:25AM (1 child)
All power to the soviets!
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday June 23 2020, @07:49AM
Power to the People! What is this, the Phillippines under Marcos?