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from the how-much^W-big-is-that-doggie-in-the-window? dept.
Big Dogs Face More Joint Problems if Neutered Early:
It's standard practice in the U.S. and much of Europe to neuter dogs by 6 months of age. This study, which analyzed 15 years of data from thousands of dogs at UC Davis Veterinary Medical Teaching Hospital, suggests dog owners should consider their options carefully.
"Most dogs are mixed breeds," said lead author Benjamin Hart, distinguished professor emeritus at the UC Davis School of Veterinary Medicine.
[...] Researchers examined common joint disorders including hip dysplasia, elbow dysplasia and cranial cruciate ligament tears, a knee injury, in five weight categories.
[...] The risk of joint disorders for heavier dogs can be up to a few times higher compared to dogs left intact. This was true for large mixed-breed dogs. For example, for female dogs over 43 pounds, the risk jumped from 4 percent for intact dogs to 10-12 percent if spayed before a year of age.
"The study raises unique challenges," noted co-author Lynette Hart, professor at the UC Davis School of Veterinary Medicine. "People like to adopt puppies from shelters, but with mixed breeds it may be difficult to determine just how big the dog will become if you don't know anything about the dog's parents."
Neutering prior to adoption is a common requirement or policy of humane societies, animal shelters and breeders. [...] Shelters, breeders and humane societies should consider adopting a standard of neutering at over a year of age for dogs that will grow into large sizes.
Journal Reference:
Hart, Benjamin L., Hart, Lynette A., Thigpen, Abigail P., et al. Assisting Decision-Making on Age of Neutering for Mixed Breed Dogs of Five Weight Categories: Associated Joint Disorders and Cancers, Frontiers in Veterinary Science (DOI: 10.3389/fvets.2020.00472)
(Score: 2) by gtomorrow on Friday August 14 2020, @07:57AM (7 children)
n/t
(Score: 2) by DannyB on Friday August 14 2020, @03:19PM
For some "people of walmart" this might be the best dating experiences they ever get.
Would a Dyson sphere [soylentnews.org] actually work?
(Score: 2) by barbara hudson on Friday August 14 2020, @10:58PM (5 children)
Q. Why does a dog lick his balls?
A. Because he can
There's a Marylin Manson rib removal surgery joke in there somewhere.
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(Score: 2) by gtomorrow on Saturday August 15 2020, @06:26AM (4 children)
...or maybe I'll just get the damn dog neutered and risk the possible 10-12% of future joint problems.
(Score: 2) by DeVilla on Saturday August 15 2020, @05:02PM (3 children)
It's not fun when the old girl keeps falling down in the kitchen like bambi on ice. Our old girl has been withering away for the last year. I know stairs are hard on the elderly, but I never thought of it with a dog.
(Score: 2) by barbara hudson on Saturday August 15 2020, @06:07PM (2 children)
We should show the same kindness to humans.
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(Score: 2) by gtomorrow on Sunday August 16 2020, @05:55AM (1 child)
This reply is to you and @Devilla. Believe me both, my reply wasn't coming from a heartless place. I don't mean in any way to diminish your situations. I know what it's like when the family animal is suffering.
That said, are you both telling me that your dogs are suffering because you neutered them before one year of age? And you can both unequivocally prove this? Or is it, as I suspect, the luck of the dice so to speak.
You wanna see suffering? Volunteer at the ASPCA for a month.
PSA: Spay and neuter your pets, and don't abandon them.
(Score: 2) by DeVilla on Sunday August 16 2020, @09:37PM
Well, I certainly can't say for certain if my dog's issues are the result of the timing of her being neutered. Whether it's animal medicine or people medicine, I have to depend on people who are better trained than I.
I know non-elderly people who tell me, hip dysplasia sucks. And from what I gather from the article, some researchers feel they have reason to believe that early neutering of large bread dogs can make a non-negligible contribution to the odds of the types of problems my dog is having right now. If these researchers are correct (assuming they are not maliciously misleading people or utterly incompetent) then in time we may want to modify the normal timing of when we neuter certain animals (such as large bread dogs).
I'll admit, I'm not going to head to the ASPCA to see suffering. It's easy enough to find without searching it out. And I do agree that pets should be fixed and absolutely should not be abandoned.
Your tone suggests that you suspect the researchers are incorrect or being alarmist. Am I understanding that correctly? If so, are you basing that on anything?
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday August 14 2020, @08:08AM (4 children)
not sure whether it's common for first pregnancies, but our female cat only had the one daughter.
no real guilt afterwards, although I assume there were a number of health issues related to this.
the male cat got neutered after marking a pillow on the couch.
(Score: 2) by DannyB on Friday August 14 2020, @03:20PM (3 children)
Even after neutering, are you sure the marking behavior will completely disappear?
Would a Dyson sphere [soylentnews.org] actually work?
(Score: 2) by DaTrueDave on Friday August 14 2020, @06:00PM (1 child)
Neutering almost always stops the marking behavior in cats.
(Score: 2) by Reziac on Wednesday August 19 2020, @03:31AM
Not in females... female cats that spray (not all of them, but a significant subset) will do so whether spayed or not.
And there is no Alkibiades to come back and save us from ourselves.
(Score: 2) by barbara hudson on Friday August 14 2020, @07:01PM
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(Score: 1, Disagree) by FatPhil on Friday August 14 2020, @08:12AM (4 children)
That range includes 0. Are they implying their error bars dip below zero?
Great minds discuss ideas; average minds discuss events; small minds discuss people; the smallest discuss themselves
(Score: 0, Touché) by Anonymous Coward on Friday August 14 2020, @08:24AM (3 children)
What's happening to you, Fatty? You're manifesting quite a few, not including zero, accesses of pedantry lately.
Not finding anything of value to say? Then say nothing. Or join the #FreeAristarchus protest.
(Score: 2) by aristarchus on Friday August 14 2020, @08:38AM (2 children)
Excesses, you illiterate AC! "Accesses" of pedantry would make no sense. Even if you did start with 0, which would be accessive and have no effect.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday August 14 2020, @08:59AM (1 child)
Learn literal English, you paroxystically ebullient decrepit greek.
As for "excessive", I covered that by quite a few
(Score: 2) by c0lo on Friday August 14 2020, @09:06AM
Magister, if the literal one doesn't help, maybe you can try the numerical English?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoFiw2jMy-0
(Score: 3, Funny) by Anonymous Coward on Friday August 14 2020, @08:15AM (44 children)
(Score: -1, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Friday August 14 2020, @09:07AM (5 children)
Whatever, Hudson.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday August 14 2020, @05:10PM (4 children)
If you had been paying attention, you would have noticed that Barbara has repeatedly championed the idea of requiring a registered account to leave comments. To my knowledge, they have been consistent in applying that to the majority of their comments.
You have to appreciate someone that has the balls to stand behind their convictions.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday August 14 2020, @11:44PM (3 children)
"They" have been consistent? Fucking millenial transvestites... you don't realize that misusing pronouns only makes y'all sound more ridiculous than you look with your pink hair.
(Score: 2) by Azuma Hazuki on Saturday August 15 2020, @01:47AM (1 child)
I could swear "they" as singular was acceptable even hundreds of years ago, something about people wanting to ape Shakespeare that lead to people starting to disapprove? It sounds awkward and I still prefer to use he and she, but eh...maybe it's time? Plenty of languages get along fine with a neuter third-person singular.
I am "that girl" your mother warned you about...
(Score: 3, Interesting) by barbara hudson on Saturday August 15 2020, @02:08AM
"They" has always referred to "one or more." We're just not so used to it any more, but really, most people have adapted, and anyone who hasn't, that's THEIR problem. (Note the use of "THEIR" to refer to one or more).
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(Score: 2) by barbara hudson on Saturday August 15 2020, @01:59AM
Even in English nowadays we purposefully mix them up and alternate back and forth so as not to give predominance to either one.
And there's nothing wrong with Purple hair. Old farts mostly don't care any more. After all, it hides the grey and takes a decade off your appearance. And you can always change it, something that's a lot more painful with ink. Millennial-bashing is SO out of style and so stupid. After all, the boomers knew about how they were ruining the ecology, and did nothing. Wrecked the economy. Ran up debt that they won't pay back because they'll be dead. And they voted for Trump in the USA and Brexit in the UK.
And you have the fucking nerve to bitch about Purple hair? Grow up FFS.
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(Score: 3, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Friday August 14 2020, @09:49AM (15 children)
The difference here is that fixing an animal completely removes two of their primary endocrine glands without otherwise replacing the hormones that would be produced. Transitioning usually does replace the hormones of one type of gonad with another, even in cases where they are not surgically removed. There are just too many side effects if you don't supplement hormones including bone and joint problems, that people usually don't stop them until older.
(Score: 3, Informative) by barbara hudson on Friday August 14 2020, @08:00PM (14 children)
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(Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Friday August 14 2020, @08:43PM (13 children)
HRT isn't free of side effects, adverse events, or contraindications. Sometimes the cons can outweigh the pros.
(Score: 1, Troll) by barbara hudson on Friday August 14 2020, @10:51PM (12 children)
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(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday August 15 2020, @12:27AM (5 children)
That wasn't one of the studies I was referring to. You are also completely forgetting about things like EDNs, DVT, pregnancy, anaphylaxis, endometriosis, advanced hypothyroidism, certain thrombophilias, certain hepatic diseases, and more.
(Score: 2) by barbara hudson on Saturday August 15 2020, @01:37AM (4 children)
Nope. Lower risk for many, zero risk for some. No progesterone, which seems to be the culprit for some HRT regimes, regularly tested blood and urine work, my endocrinologist says it's all fine, liver is doing great, 64-year-old trans women don't need to worry about pregnancy, endometriosis, etc.
And my LDL is half the target, and my HDL is almost twice the target. 2-day MIBI test shows no signs of cardiovascular disease (which is weird because everyone in my family on both sides has it or died early of it, but I'm not gonna complain), torn my right shoulder rotator cuff twice and decided against surgery, in both cases healed in 2 years (the second time was an accident that would have torn it even without a history).
The extra muscle is a curse, but it's far better than being in a wheelchair, which I would be with my stupid back if it weren't for extra estrogen. Considering how many people break their hips and pelvises from falls due to loss of skeletal muscle as they age, estrogen supplementation is a cheap way for women to add years of freedom to their lives,
And menopause is not normal in mammals. Humans are defective in that respect. Just as well though, we don't need people breeding into their 90s. There's already way too many of us.
On an unrelated health subject, Donald Trump 's brother is in the hospital. If Donald visits him, it's serious because he's scoping out spare parts.
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(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday August 15 2020, @02:20AM (3 children)
Your question was "Why would any woman on her (cis or trans) ever stop HRT?" And I answered that by providing some of the contraindications, many of which can be made much worse due to supplemental hormones. I'm glad you don't have to worry about things like pregnancy, endometriosis, and anaphylaxis, but not everything is about you. Plenty of other women do have to consider those things, other conditions, and more when deciding what treatments are right for them. For goodness sakes, if endometriosis and certain other conditions are bad enough, one of the preferred treatments is inducing artificial menopause through things like GnRH antagonists.
(Score: 3, Interesting) by barbara hudson on Saturday August 15 2020, @03:06AM (2 children)
Menopause can cause serious mental problems as well as physical and mental decline. These are pretty much certainties. Suicidal depression is fatal. Physical and mental decline from a broken hip or pelvis often results in placement in a home after one fall, and pretty much all the time after a second break. Survival time after a second break is less than two years in most cases. Women can greatly postpone diseases of aging, so why wouldn't we?
BTW - rapid decline and premature death are greater for men. 40% after a first hip or pelvis break, as opposed to 25% for women - but this is one men's health problem we don't talk about because men don't like being seen as weak.
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(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday August 15 2020, @04:08AM (1 child)
Most isn't all. You asked why a woman would decide against hormones and that is what was provided. The fact that there are pros to HRT doesn't mean that it is impossible for the cons outweigh them in certain circumstances.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday August 15 2020, @07:11AM
Dude she doesn't care. She is not an honest actor. She is just getting her jollies acting like she is an expert in things she is not. You proved her wrong and she can't accept that so she is trying to pivot from the original point you were making to try and save face. If you reread with that in mind, it is easy to see how she is trying to change her original call of "bullshit" into either her being correct the whole time on a related topic or baiting you to comment on a completely different topic so everyone loses sight of her error.
(Score: 2) by FatPhil on Saturday August 15 2020, @07:26AM (5 children)
The logical fallacy in that sentence is bigger than the sentence itself!
Compare:
After all, the vast majority of mammals never live in houses so it's definitely a flaw.
Google "spandrel".
Great minds discuss ideas; average minds discuss events; small minds discuss people; the smallest discuss themselves
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday August 15 2020, @07:31AM (2 children)
Depends on how you define flaw too. Apparently, evolution believes the benefits exceed the drawbacks and it results in increased survival rates or is neutral. Otherwise, it wouldn't be so widespread today.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday August 15 2020, @08:49AM (1 child)
I don't think humans have been reliably living long enough to experience menopause for enough time that there would be an evolutionary bias in any direction. Considering that there's good evidence for other group-oriented traits being genetic/epigenetic, I'd bet you're right though.
(Score: 2) by barbara hudson on Saturday August 15 2020, @05:59PM
It took 4,000 years for a single random recessive mutation in one person to spread blue ayes over a significant part of the human population. We don't need hundreds of thousands of years for mutations to spread. The average person has something like 60-200 random mutations. We're a real-time experiment in rapid evolution and the advantage it gives, same as the flu virus.
Since humans for most of our short existence never lived long enough to experience menopause, there was no evolutionary pressure either way. Now that we're living much longer than even as recently as 1900, we're seeing that menopause is a huge risk of aging. Brittle bones that aren't fixed with calcium supplements, dementia, muscle loss, depression, and the biggest risk factor - being placed in an old age home. Large losses of cognitive function within weeks as people become "institutionalized", passive, anxious. But this is exactly what we expect - people go to nursing homes to die, not to be nursed back to health.
With the way COVID19 swept through nursing homes, more people are going to choose euthanasia or suicide. Because dying in a pool of your own shit is SO not what people want. Life expectancy in a nursing home is 2 years, so after a lifetime, why not just skip the bad stuff at the end? It adds nothing of value - unless you're making money off it either as an employee, operator, or supplier. It's your body - choosing when to take it with you is the ultimate freedom.
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(Score: 2) by barbara hudson on Saturday August 15 2020, @05:42PM
many mammals live in dwellings. We call them "dens", same as the man-cave. Ditto birds - we call them nests when it's for raising young, but many birds shelter in inclement weather.
Same as among primates, only humans have a problem with cholesterol clogging the cardiovascular system. And not all humans. Researchers are now looking for people who have naturally very low LDL to see what genes are involved, because it's certainly not diet. They can eat high cholesterol food as much as they want.
They should be looking for the subset that has very high HDL, since scavenging all that cholesterol and converting it from LDL to HDL will also cause low LDL, but they're not looking for that, and the subjects they've found have normal levels of HDL.
Doctor suspected I had the low LDL mutation, but I suspect it's a consequence of my high HDL. So I'm a freak … so what else is new?
A couple of my sisters have pretty much the same situation - those that don't are either taking drugs to lower their cholesterol or have a history of cardiovascular disease and are dead before 60, same as our parents. Go figure.
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(Score: 2) by Reziac on Wednesday August 19 2020, @03:38AM
The "flaw" is that humans significantly outlive our reproductive usefulness, whereas most animals... don't. So the age-related failing parts of the system become evident, simply because we outlive it.
Mostly this is thyroid decline (which takes about 15 years to kill you), but there's a feedback with gonadal hormones... if either goes down, the other follows. Fixing either (or ideally, both) improves both quality and length of life.
And there is no Alkibiades to come back and save us from ourselves.
(Score: 3, Funny) by DannyB on Friday August 14 2020, @03:24PM (4 children)
Be careful not to fall into the trap of thinking there are only two genders when the underlying evidence indicates there are 87 genders.
Would a Dyson sphere [soylentnews.org] actually work?
(Score: 2) by Azuma Hazuki on Saturday August 15 2020, @01:50AM (3 children)
As far as I can tell, there are 7.5 billion and a bit genders, and most people just cluster really, really strongly onto one end or another of an extremely sharp bimodal distribution. I don't get the whole trans* thing but I don't understand why people have a problem, either. Nature may have "intended" such and such a thing, but an unconscious, emergent process is going to have errors.
I am "that girl" your mother warned you about...
(Score: 2) by barbara hudson on Saturday August 15 2020, @02:49AM (1 child)
Kind of works, when you think about it. Transformers (people who change sex) and Decepticons (drag queens, etc). Never watched the cartoons when I was a kid, but I remember the jingle from the commercials. And thanks to some action movies on tv, I now know what transformers and decepticons are. And wish I didn't. What a cheesy idea for a kids cartoon.
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(Score: 2) by barbara hudson on Saturday August 15 2020, @02:53AM
SoylentNews is social media. Says so right in the slogan. Soylentnews is people, not tech.
(Score: 2) by DannyB on Monday August 17 2020, @03:04PM
I don't get the trans thing, but I do understand that it is quite real to people who experience that feeling. At least, I believe them when they say so. (Not that I have a device to perform a measurement of that feeling.)
Would a Dyson sphere [soylentnews.org] actually work?
(Score: 3, Informative) by barbara hudson on Friday August 14 2020, @05:36PM (16 children)
This should have been expected given the muscle mass lost after menopause, and the fact that estrogen and testosterone are both sex steroids.
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(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday August 14 2020, @07:58PM (15 children)
It seems odd then that trans women lose their muscular (but not skeletal) advantage over time, almost as if the replacement of testosterone with estrogen explains the difference in physical strength between (actual) men and women.
(Score: 2) by barbara hudson on Friday August 14 2020, @10:23PM (14 children)
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(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday August 15 2020, @12:10AM (13 children)
I thought excess estrogen gets converted into testosterone? (and excess testosterone gets converted into estrogen?)
(Score: 3, Interesting) by barbara hudson on Saturday August 15 2020, @01:14AM (12 children)
Not at very high levels of estrogen. I have no detectable testosterone and estrogen levels at least twice the peak of a 20-25 year old woman. Anything less and I end up with serious back and neck pain (fractures of the c5 and t6 vertebrae that were missed on x-rays until last year, causing lots of pain). Tripling the dose of estrogen strengthened the muscles enough to keep everything aligned through the day and accelerated the healing of damages at night. When I tried to cut back, after a month I'd start the day in pain.
It makes the world of difference. I went in to help out at the local food bank today, stacked 700 kg of fruit juice on pallets, unpacked, sorted, and shelved a couple hundred kg of other food, and I feel fine - and I'll be 65 in less than a year. It's a bit frightening. Never had this much muscle before HRT, so go figure. The back and neck vertebrae healed at an angle to the surrounding vertebrae, so I really should not be able to do this, but better than a back brace or surgery, especially since I also used to have lower back pain as well.
I know another woman who's a couple of years older, she had back surgery years ago and last year the screws started to come out. Now she's on OxyContin to function, and still needs leg braces and arm crutches. I'll stick with overdoses of estrogen. Even after a 22 km walk back in April I'm fine the next day
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(Score: 2) by Reziac on Saturday August 15 2020, @02:11AM (11 children)
It's probably not the estrogen as such, but rather the thyroid-estrogen feedback loop encouraging better thyroid function than you could otherwise expect at that age. Increasing one leads to an increase in the other, and good thyroid level prevents both early aging and a host of age-related health issues (including the heart problems you mention in family).
And there is no Alkibiades to come back and save us from ourselves.
(Score: 2) by barbara hudson on Saturday August 15 2020, @02:39AM (10 children)
"You're depressed."
"Of course. I just lost my job."
"Take this pill every day."
"That won't get me a job."
"You have a chemical imbalance in your brain that is causing your depression. The pill will fix it."
"How do you know I have a chemical imbalance. You didn't do a test."
"You're depressed and it's caused by a chemical imbalance."
"I'm depressed because I lost my job. Cause and effect. I need another job to fix my depression."
"No, you have a chemical imbalance in your brain and this pill will fix it."
"You say I have a chemical imbalance but there's no physical test, no blood test, cerebrospinal fluid test, MRI to detect it."
"Don't need a test. Your brain has a chemical imbalance. We know this because you're depressed."
You sound like a quack, or a faith healer, no proof, no test, and you're missing the obvious cause of my depression. I lost my fucking job!" Just refer me to a social worker so I can talk to someone to help deal with my problems. You know, help me get to a better place mentally so I can find a job."
"A social worker won't fix your chemical imbalance."
"Any proof I have a chemical imbalance?"
"You're depressed."
"I'm depressed because I lost my job. It's NORMAL to be depressed when you lose your job."
"So you admit you're depressed. You therefore have a chemical imbalance. You need to take this pill."
"If you lost your job, would you be depressed?"
"Yes."
"Would you take the pill?"
"I'd get another job,"
"BINGO!"
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(Score: 2) by Reziac on Saturday August 15 2020, @03:00AM (9 children)
There's situational depression (such as from losing your job), and there's biochemical depression (usually due to endocrine dysfunction). One is cured by getting another job; the other is cured by fixing your busted hormones. Naturally it is possible for the two to overlap.
And there is no Alkibiades to come back and save us from ourselves.
(Score: 2) by Common Joe on Saturday August 15 2020, @08:34AM (5 children)
Yes, but Barbara was pointing out that doctors tend to treat everything with a pill and ignore the obvious cause. There's a lot of truth to what she says. I haven't had that exact conversation with my various doctors, but very similar ones. I cannot tell you how often my doctor recommended a cure worse than the disease.
(Score: 2) by Reziac on Saturday August 15 2020, @01:09PM (4 children)
Oh, get me started on how doctors treat the test results rather than treating the patient...
And there is no Alkibiades to come back and save us from ourselves.
(Score: 2) by barbara hudson on Saturday August 15 2020, @05:28PM (3 children)
Was convinced to go back on a different brand, 5 years of absolute hell and antidepressant use, which made the whole depression far worse. Finally got fed up, stopped all the drugs 6 months of hell, then life started getting better.
Was over at my sisters talking about this (pre-covid, obviously - none of us allow visitors or visit friends in their homes because we take this shit seriously, and yesterday the Canadian government said we will probably never have a really effective vaccine, and that we're in for what will probably be a much larger second wave, followed by successive smaller waves). My brother in law is a retired pharmacist. He got out the automatic blood pressure machine, I told them it won't work properly on me. First test - your blood pressure is dangerously high. Told him to try again. Your blood pressure is dangerously low. See? Try again. Your blood pressure is dangerously high.
As expected. Totally inconsistent readings because the mechanics of the test don't work properly with people without shallow blood vessels in their arms. Taking a blood sample from me is often more hit than miss. Sometimes they can't find one in either arm and have to take it off the back of the hand. I'm aware of the problem, so I ignore results, which is okay because the recommendations have changed so much over the years that what was considered dangerous isn't any more. Plus I have a really serious "white lab coat " reaction to blood pressure tests. Given a few minutes to adapt, and it goes from dangerous to lower than normal. So the medication was never needed in the first place. And neither were the antidepressants, which also caused serious leakage of exudates in my retinas for years. 6 months after stopping the drugs, they no longer had cotton wool patches that covered half the surface. And the holes in both healed spontaneously.
I've had one large bleeder since, but it dispersed quickly, and I took it easy for a while to let the clot anchor itself. One in almost 2 years I can live with.
Should have expected that drugs that affect brain cells negatively would also affect the retina negatively, and the OCT scans and retina photos show the correlation. Antidepressants do a lot of harm, with no independent studies showing effects over that of a placebo, and twice the suicide rate of those with the same tested severity who opt for other forms of treatment.
Booze would probably be better. You can share it, so decreased social isolation, and the negative physical side effects take a lot longer to manifest. And people who aren't naturally drinkers won't have the stigma of "going off their meds," whether it's for a week or forever.
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(Score: 2) by Reziac on Wednesday August 19 2020, @03:52AM (2 children)
That whole mess of symptoms are in the spectrum for hypothyroidism. And when that's the cause, treating symptoms (especially depression!) often makes things worse, or unstable -- it's like painting the house to fix a failing foundation. As noted the hefty estrogen dose is probably keeping your thyroid going strong, thereby fixing all manner of vague and seemingly-unrelated issues. (Look up "300 thyroid symptoms" -- a non-exclusive list.) Anyway, I'm glad you're doing well. If things start going pear-shaped, get a detailed thyroid/endocrine workup and go from there, before trying to treat anything else. Tho given your age, if you're stable now, you're likely to remain so.
High blood pressure is a common but generally unrecognized result of low thyroid (via two different mechanisms). Wild fluctuations can happen when potassium and sodium levels get out of whack (either secondary to thyroid or due to goofy dietary intake, such as not enough sodium). You can see how HBP meds can be the wrong answer.
And there is no Alkibiades to come back and save us from ourselves.
(Score: 2) by barbara hudson on Wednesday August 19 2020, @10:12PM (1 child)
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(Score: 2) by Reziac on Wednesday August 19 2020, @11:16PM
Good. Here's to your continued good health.
If you go unstable, thyroid should be the first thing checked (and not just the accurate-but-misleading TSH test). But as noted, with the high estrogen, it's likely to stay put.
And there is no Alkibiades to come back and save us from ourselves.
(Score: 2) by barbara hudson on Saturday August 15 2020, @04:46PM (2 children)
Even "clinical depression" or major depressive disorder is always situational. Which explains why long-term those who attempt to treat it with medication have twice the suicide rate of those who don't, everything else being kept the same. Independent studies (there are very few - most have authors with connections to drug companies) fail to show a better rate for drugs over a placebo.
This is why the UN has called for the end of medicalizing the brain to treat depression back in 2017. Change the persons underlying economic or social situation and depression disappears. Most of the "disorders" in the DSM are fake pseudoscience, with no actual physical test (blood, imaging) to back them up. And every release they add more, resulting in an ever increasing spiral of unnecessary and dangerous drugs being prescribed.
Video game addiction? The care is simple - take a hammer to the kids Xbox or PlayStation. Not drugs.
Depression brought on by chronic pain on the job? Change the job or adapt it, not antidepressants.
Remember the long history of psychiatric fraud. Assertive women were "hysterical", being attracted to the same sex was a psychiatric pathology that was criminalizes, transsexuals were pathologized as delusional and overdosed with hormones of their birth sex (leaving many dead from suicide and others jailed for testosterone-induced rage). Keep in mind the whole field started with charlatans selling fake nostrums and circus acts of hypnosis.
One interesting thing in the UK, where many people on benefits that are so low its not really possible to maintain any sort of dignity and where people have committed suicide because they can't survive - many of the depressed get cured when they hit retirement age and collect a pension that is enough to live on without scrounging every day and worrying their benefits will be cut off for whatever reason.
Problem is it's cheaper to prescribe a pill than to help people gain insight into their lives or help them find meaningful work that gives them a sense of fulfillment and social engagement. Well, cheaper unless you account for the loss of tax revenues from putting people on brain damaging drugs that make them unable to work to their full potential, or even work at all. Because MRI studies show grey matter loss in people on antidepressants, and it takes about a year and 9 months to recover as much as you'll ever recover after stopping the drugs. It's also why people complain about personality changes, being in a fog, not being themselves - the drugs have the same effect as dementia. You'll still be depressed - you will have just been rendered passive enough to accept that this is your lot in life because you have a fictional brain chemical imbalance.
These drugs are very addictive, so when patients stop taking them and experience withdrawal symptoms, they're not told it's withdrawal, but "discontinuance syndrome." Amazing how those who persist in staying off the drugs eventually stop experiencing the effects of withdrawal, and as the brain fog decreases they're often able to get their lives back. Help from social workers who respect the decision to go "off their meds" makes a big difference.
Almost every patient seeing a psychiatrist will tell them within 15 minutes what the real problem is. Job loss, relationship problems, social isolation, experiences hatred, racism, prejudice, non-acceptance by key people in their normative social group for being lgbtA24Z, a physical handicap, decline in health.
You don't fix this shit with drugs that as their main means of effect cause pruning of brain synapses. That's just nuts. But psychiatry needs validation from drug companies, and drug companies need validation from psychiatrists. The psychiatrist who prescribe one ineffective drug after another "in the hope of finding something that works " aren't necessarily evil, just incredibly naive. And egged on by patients who want a pill to fix their broken lives, because working to effect real change is hard, and almost impossible in many cases without help. It doesn't help that you can't fix many of the problems because it's society, not the patient, who is sick.
SoylentNews is social media. Says so right in the slogan. Soylentnews is people, not tech.
(Score: 2) by Reziac on Wednesday August 19 2020, @04:04AM (1 child)
While back came across an interesting paper (which I can't find again) by a shrink who found that he could permanently cure 90% of his bipolar patients literally overnight by putting them on T3 (active form of thyroid hormone). To compress out all the tiresome details, what this means is that most cases of "bipolar syndrome" are actually undiagnosed Hashimoto's thyroiditis (an autoimmune disorder, which can be inherited or acquired). Basically the supplemental T3 shuts down (and replaces) the failing/leaking thyroid gland, halting the wild fluctuations in hormone levels, which had been making everything else flipflop between hyper and malaise. (IBS is a 100% dead-on symptom of Hashi, same reason.)
[10% of his patients reacted badly; those were doubtless due to some other cause. So he learned to do the initial dose under supervision. Fortunately any reaction is transient.]
And there is no Alkibiades to come back and save us from ourselves.
(Score: 2) by barbara hudson on Wednesday August 19 2020, @10:56PM
Most "psychiatric illnesses" have caused and cures that don't involve any medication. We've been treating symptoms rather than causes. The twins study that claimed schizophrenia had a large genetic component was debunked after the lead investigator repeatedly refused to release the raw data. Others were able to track down many of the twins and found the claims that they didn't share the same environment were false.
Turns out the common factor was abusive home life, not a genetic predisposition.
If someone has situational depression, fix the situation. Seems obvious but psychiatry needs to do a hard reset. Even psychiatrists recognize how fucked the dependence on drugs and medicalizing the brain is doing way more harm than good.
We've become a society of wimps. A survey of over 1400 people asking if this was the worst year of their life had the majority say yes. I'm having a great year despite blowing my good eye again two weeks ago and again yesterday. This isn't even in the top 10 worst years ever.
How hard is it to wash your hands, wear a mask, and keep two meters away from people indoors? Millions being paid to sit at home - oh, the stress! There's tons of essential jobs begging for workers but people would rather sit at home and make more.
People are rational actors in the short term, so when their employers call them to come back to work, they only want one or two days work per week so they can continue to collect full benefits here in Canada.
it's like the university student who went on TV saying the proposal for a student benefit was too low - she wanted a permanent $2000 a month payment for going to school, no work requirements. Gee, sign me up for that! This is on top of massive subsidies. Of course she wants to be a lawyer … figures.
We've become a nation of wimps. And our prime minister wants to continue this? The universities are just as bad, wanting to charge full tuition for classes that are 100% remote, and also changing student fees for cancelled services. And we wonder where the sense of privilege comes from?
We knew that automation was going to change the nature and availability of work. Covid has given us a foretaste, and we've shown we aren't tough enough to face the future - people just want to hit the bars and party like it's 1999. And spread covid and force struggling businesses to shut down again..
SoylentNews is social media. Says so right in the slogan. Soylentnews is people, not tech.
(Score: 3, Insightful) by Common Joe on Friday August 14 2020, @08:46AM (45 children)
That could be a problem. I don't know specifically about large sizes, but a quick google said dogs can first come into heat at 6 months. I don't think this is a viable suggestion. It's probably better to deal with joint problems than streets over run with dogs.
(Score: 2) by barbara hudson on Friday August 14 2020, @01:18PM (35 children)
Joint problems can be severe enough to require the dog to be euthanized. Why don't we do the same with you?
Most of my dogs are what you could call "hand-me_downs" - people move, they die, etc. The majority are so-called pure breeds, and most weren't neut.
None of them has made puppies in over 30 years of ownership. My Jack Russell isn't neutered - when he's horny, he jumps stuffed toys, towels, or whatever. They're his, they give him hours of exercise every day, and contribute to him not getting fat and having joint problems.
They say a responsible owner neutered their pets. I don't buy it - a responsible owner doesn't let them breed.
SoylentNews is social media. Says so right in the slogan. Soylentnews is people, not tech.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday August 14 2020, @03:17PM (4 children)
Do your female dogs leave the house?
The males?
(Score: 2) by barbara hudson on Friday August 14 2020, @05:28PM (1 child)
We have skunks in the area. For some stupid reason they want to chase the "cats". They also like squirrels, etc. I have no desire to see my dog sprayed by a skunk or run over by a car. Dogs CAN get loose - but that's not something dog owners should do. Even in rural areas, porcupines and skunks and groundhogs are a risk. I live in the city and one night a groundhog went after one of my dogs at night, while on a leash. The Jack Russell attacked it, and when I mentioned it to my sister she told me a few of her neighbours had similar experiences - and we're all in the suburbs. Not the sticks.
SoylentNews is social media. Says so right in the slogan. Soylentnews is people, not tech.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday August 14 2020, @06:12PM
I have a pretty big housecat that likes to come on the porch when I go out to smoke at night. The groundhogs are terrified of him. I've had to stop him from chasing them into their burrows a few times.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday August 15 2020, @12:17AM (1 child)
You can cut the tubes instead of removing the organs. It's just as effective as neutering/spaying and doesn't have hormonal side effects.
(Score: 2) by barbara hudson on Saturday August 15 2020, @02:14AM
SoylentNews is social media. Says so right in the slogan. Soylentnews is people, not tech.
(Score: 2) by DannyB on Friday August 14 2020, @03:33PM (14 children)
I mean this in the kindest way possible and with no disrespect or intention to offend.
Republicans teach "abstinence only" sex education. Combined with the idea that maybe pubescent children should not be allowed to understand what is happening to them and their bodies. They don't understand what is happening to them when they "go into heat" so to speak. They are not allowed to breed. Yet often find ways of doing so -- sometimes without even understanding what they are doing. (The girl says "but mom, I didn't let him kiss me, ever, just as you said, yet I got pregnant, somehow, anyway") (Or Sarah Palin's daughter "mom! I'm pregnant again! Why does this keep happening to me?")
I think of the poor dog in this situation.
I'm not arguing against your approach, especially if it's working for you. And the alternative is that the dog later has joint problems and no understanding of what is happening to them.
Would a Dyson sphere [soylentnews.org] actually work?
(Score: 2) by barbara hudson on Friday August 14 2020, @05:20PM (1 child)
I just don't understand how at some times of the year he can go 2-3 hours, stopping just to catch his breath. I know Jack Russell dogs are energetic, but I never expected this much. But I'll give him credit where it's due - he's between 8 and 10 years old, and with all that exercise, everyone says he's really buff.
SoylentNews is social media. Says so right in the slogan. Soylentnews is people, not tech.
(Score: 2) by Reziac on Saturday August 15 2020, @01:37PM
Some dogs are just totally into it... others couldn't care less. I have both extremes in my kennel -- a pair of males who've lived together their whole lives, and spend every waking moment exchanging humps (they have masturbation down to a fine art) ... and a younger male who lives with the girls, but is studiously disinterested unless a female actively courts him, and otherwise absolutely never humps anyone or anything (not even females in heat). His two teenage sons (and my other older males) are more typical ... they'll hump a hot bitch, but otherwise can't be bothered. Of course mine live full-time adjacent to intact females, so it's not something New And Fascinating every time they catch a whiff.
Have seen the same among females... had one who spent her entire life industriously humping her lady-love (she was, given opportunity, a monogamous lesbian)....and others who are like "keep your nasty twat away from me!" But generally females will hump whatever catches their attention, and if several are in heat together, the choo-choo train can be awesome. Overall they're much more into humping than males could ever be. And males can usually be discouraged, but if females had strap-ons, they'd be dangerous.
This is 3 females, the one in the middle in heat and the other two intent on committing Dog Rape... and yes, the one on the right is pumping with such enthusiasm that she's completely off the ground.
http://www.doomgold.com/images/3girls_having_fun_7172.jpg [doomgold.com]
And there is no Alkibiades to come back and save us from ourselves.
(Score: 3, Interesting) by Booga1 on Friday August 14 2020, @06:20PM (8 children)
I get where you're coming from here, but dogs are not children. I know you aren't trying to equate instincts with education, but mature dogs are fully functional adults of their species. They have instincts, hormones, and physical biological changes driving them to have sex. This is the natural course of life for them.
It is entirely our responsibility to ensure they don't reproduce. Keeping your pets isolated is just as valid a method of birth control as spaying and neutering. As long as they don't get out and others don't break in to get to them, it is 100% effective. You are responsible for what happens(or doesn't happen).
As for the article itself: It's nice to see further studies acknowledging the differences of medical outcomes between dachshunds and great danes. Unfortunately, there are still some people pushing advice to neuter male dogs as early as possible. Some suggest as soon as eight weeks [dogtime.com] along with the angle that needing to wait six months is "old and outdated" advice.
Bone development is pretty important for some of the barrel chested breeds. I've heard of constricted chests, badly formed shoulders, joint issues, and similar problems from veterinarians for years regarding early neutering of big dogs. Now, there are other reasons to spay and neuter pets. As mentioned by others here, behavior modification is a big part of it. I just think it's prudent to wait until they've had a chance to finish growing a bit more.
(Score: 2) by DannyB on Friday August 14 2020, @06:39PM (6 children)
For me it is a moot issue. The dogs we have and have had in the past were all
neutered, er, umfixedrepaired.We have only one small dog now and she's getting a bit old but still doing well. I don't intend, at this point, to get another dog.
Would a Dyson sphere [soylentnews.org] actually work?
(Score: 2) by barbara hudson on Friday August 14 2020, @07:56PM (5 children)
SoylentNews is social media. Says so right in the slogan. Soylentnews is people, not tech.
(Score: 2) by DannyB on Friday August 14 2020, @09:04PM (4 children)
Believe me, I know all that.
This dog may be the last because we're getting old enough that we have less and less energy to take care of a dog. We have a good sized fenced in back yard, which is good. But we don't do as many walks as we used to. I would hate to have a new rambunctious puppy full of energy. Of course, there are probably older dogs that are adoptable. And my wife may want one more than I do, since I spend most of the days at the office. It's not an issue as long as have our current dog that we've had from a puppy.
Its amusing that since I do the feeding right before I leave for work, and right when I get home, I always get the anxious greeting. And if I'm running 20 minutes late, there is some anxiety in the dog I am told.
Dogs don't judge you for programming in Java.
Would a Dyson sphere [soylentnews.org] actually work?
(Score: 2) by barbara hudson on Friday August 14 2020, @10:18PM (2 children)
SoylentNews is social media. Says so right in the slogan. Soylentnews is people, not tech.
(Score: 2) by DannyB on Monday August 17 2020, @03:02PM (1 child)
When we got this dog as a puppy of 3 months, the kid still lived at home, was in high school, we all had a lot more energy than we do now. The dog has had and still has a great life. But both the dog and us are getting older. If we were to get another dog, it would be worth considering an older dog.
Would a Dyson sphere [soylentnews.org] actually work?
(Score: 2) by barbara hudson on Monday August 17 2020, @05:29PM
SoylentNews is social media. Says so right in the slogan. Soylentnews is people, not tech.
(Score: 2) by barbara hudson on Saturday August 15 2020, @01:32PM
Found out after posting this that one of my sisters had to put down a dog riddled with cancer. She had gotten it from a woman who was dying of cancer and couldn't keep it. Sad, but at least the dog outlived it's owner, And had a good life. But yes, a fancy poodle. Inbred.
She's insisting that her current dog is the last one. Getting old, doesn't need the shedding and the inconvenience. Mind you, the same day she sent me a pic of a St Bernard that needed to be re-homed, she swore her current dog would be the last, and a few hours later she heard about the woman with cancer and took the dog. My bet is she'll continue with older dogs - not as much work as they've settled down, and it's not a commitment of a decade or more.
SoylentNews is social media. Says so right in the slogan. Soylentnews is people, not tech.
(Score: 3, Interesting) by Reziac on Saturday August 15 2020, @03:02AM
A bigger problem is early cancer, along with a bunch of other health and behavioral issues that we seldom see in intact dogs.
And there is no Alkibiades to come back and save us from ourselves.
(Score: 2) by Reziac on Wednesday August 19 2020, @04:06AM (2 children)
You can put a leash on your dog. People look at you funny if you do this with your teenagers.
And there is no Alkibiades to come back and save us from ourselves.
(Score: 3, Funny) by DannyB on Wednesday August 19 2020, @01:59PM (1 child)
It is difficult to find bird cages large enough to hold more than one child.
Would a Dyson sphere [soylentnews.org] actually work?
(Score: 2) by Reziac on Wednesday August 19 2020, @11:20PM
But you can get a dog crate big enough for the entire family!
And there is no Alkibiades to come back and save us from ourselves.
(Score: 3, Informative) by Reziac on Saturday August 15 2020, @02:33AM (13 children)
As a canine professional with five decades experience... I agree. There's a very simple birth control method that works with all dogs: it's called a leash. The Pollination Fairy does not flit from yard to yard leaving puppies in its wake. Neutering is actually forbidden in some countries (being considered a needless mutilation) and they don't have zillions of surplus puppies...
...actually, we don't either. The rescue industry presently imports somewhere around a million dogs per year (more than are produced by all domestic breeders combined) and still can't meet demand, hence the escalating prices for 'rescue' dogs. (Many of which are purpose-bred for export to the U.S., and in at least one country I could name, theft of purebreds for sale to 'rescues' is a cottage industry.)
As to the effects of neutering, especially early neutering -- joint issues are the least of it. Early cancer is probably the most prominent, but failure to mature mentally leading to temperament issues (especially fearfulness and fear-biting) is also a big problem. A few references I had ready to hand:
Neutering Dogs: Effects on Joint Disorders and Cancers in Golden Retrievers
https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0055937#pone-0055937-t001 [plos.org]
Long-term health effects:
http://www.naiaonline.org/pdfs/LongTermHealthEffectsOfSpayNeuterInDogs.pdf [naiaonline.org]
The Effects of Spaying and Neutering on Canine Behavior
Based on section from Aggressive Behavior in Dogs by James O’Heare
https://web.archive.org/web/20100919065658/http://www.associationofanimalbehaviorprofessionals.com/effects_of_neutering.html [archive.org]
New Research That Raises Questions About Current Neutering Recommendations
http://speakingforspot.com/blog/2014/01/26/new-research-that-raises-questions-about-current-neutering-recommendations/ [speakingforspot.com]
which refers to:
Evaluation of the risk and age of onset of cancer and behavioral disorders in gonadectomized Vizslas
https://avmajournals.avma.org/doi/abs/10.2460/javma.244.3.309?prevSearch=allfield%253A%2528neuter%2Bcancer%2529&searchHistoryKey= [avma.org]
Neutering and behavior
https://web.archive.org/web/20130210032349/http://www.angryvet.com/neutering-and-behavior/ [archive.org]
And of course chronic hypothyroidism due to interrupting the gonad-pituitary feedback loop, hence weight gain, incontinence, and premature aging.
And there is no Alkibiades to come back and save us from ourselves.
(Score: 2) by Common Joe on Saturday August 15 2020, @04:03AM (12 children)
Most people are not responsible enough to properly train nor keep their dogs on a leash. You should know this.
I'm curious to know how they achieved that status and maintain it. Can you elaborate?
The rest of your comments have caught my attention -- especially the part about importing a million dogs. I haven't heard that, but I can't refute that and it does make a certain amount of sense to me. If we're importing cats and dogs, it seems we're doing something wrong.
I don't have time right this second to read the links you posted, but I will as soon as I can. You've made some interesting remarks. Thank you.
(Score: 2) by Reziac on Saturday August 15 2020, @04:22AM (11 children)
I doubtless deal with far more pet owners than you do. In fact nearly all of them are perfectly responsible with their pets. The idea that most are not is anti-breeder propaganda, not reality. Shelters overflowing? Los Angeles has only about 500 impound kennels for a population of 8 million (and a like number of pets). Given how many dogs are escape artists, you could fill that just with unintentional escapees every day. In fact most metro shelters now import dogs from rural states, to have enough animals to sell to a pet-hungry public.
Don't recall offhand if was Scandinavia or Germany or... one of that lot, where neutering is illegal unless medically mandated. Considered in the same bucket as ear cropping and tail docking: as a needless mutilation. (Never mind that there are sometimes practical reasons for all of the above.)
Back around 2007, CDC stated 270,000 dogs imported into the U.S. for the year. They'll be the first to tell you that their numbers are fuzzy, because imports are mostly unregulated, but they have some idea from freight manifests and what permits and vet exams are required, and from smuggling operations caught in the act on the southern border. Their most recent estimate that I've seen was around a million. Consider that the U.S. population increases by somewhere around 8 million per year, and that demand for pets increases apace... while breeders only produce about 700k puppies, and dropping as more and more are legislated and regulated out of existence, and as ooops litters become mostly a thing of the past (given that ~87% of pets are now altered).
And consider this: if everything is spayed and neutered, at some point you have nothing left. (I'm always croggled that the breeders who complain loudest about loss of "genetic diversity" are also the most insistent that every pet be removed from the gene pool.)
And there is no Alkibiades to come back and save us from ourselves.
(Score: 2) by Common Joe on Saturday August 15 2020, @06:27AM (10 children)
I think your perspective (and mine) may be skewed because you and I live in different worlds. The sheer number of people I see being irresponsible with pets is incredibly high. I've chased (sprinted after) my fair share of other people's dogs when they slipped out the door. I know someone right now who just adopted yet another animal even though they can't afford to put food on their own table. (They definitely can't afford a vet, I know at least one isn't spayed, and I know she's not responsible enough to prevent the dog from getting pregnant.) The people who come to you (for training?) are already responsible people, but there are a lot of ignorant, unthinking, and uncaring people who don't come to you.
I'd be curious to know the country. Off the top of my head, I can say with certainly it's not Germany. [Looking it up.] It's Norway. [jennifermargulis.net]
I don't know how they achieved that. Perhaps they are an enlightened people, but Americans are not. It also doesn't address other animals. My wife knows horses pretty well and as she put it "You don't want two stallions in the same area as one another".
I don't think anyone is advocating that we spay and neuter all dogs, but your average person shouldn't be into breeding. I love seeing cute puppies and kittens as much as the next YouTuber, but I don't want the hassle and responsibility of raising that kind of family. And based on the sheer number of people who aren't responsible with pets, they shouldn't shoulder that responsibility either.
So, I read / skimmed your links. I'm glad to have been educated some, but it surprises me that we are against spaying/neutering while we continue to talk about breeds. From one article: "Breed, age, and gender are variables that must be taken into consideration in conjunction with non-medical factors for each individual dog." Breeds are probably the number one reason for health problems. Better genetic diversity would help with a lot of health issues.
Additionally (and maybe as a side note), don't forget that *I* don't make the decision when to spay or neuter. I never have. My vets decided that and should continue to decide that.
I also can't say I'm completely convinced by the articles. These are respectable articles, so I definitely won't dismiss them offhand, but in this article [speakingforspot.com] you gave, for example, it talks about how much higher these sicknesses are: 3.5x as high, 9.0x as high, 4.3x, 5.0x, and 6.5x. These are either staggeringly high "holy crap" numbers (think 100,000 x 9.0 = 900,000 animals) or they are being exaggerated (think 10 x 9.0 = 90 animals). I can't tell and I don't have time to dig deep into this.
None the less, thank you. I'll be on the lookout for more information in the future about this and keep it in mind when (if) we get new pets. I've learned something new and will continue to learn.
(Score: 2) by barbara hudson on Saturday August 15 2020, @01:22PM (9 children)
Simple way to fix that - ban the sale of dogs. You can only give them away. Because the whole "purebred" thing is a con. We just had 500 dogs smuggled in on an airplane - about 10% arrived dead. Unscrupulous "breeders" meeting demand for fancy dogs that, when you get down to it, are so inbred that they're going to have too many health problems.
Without a financial incentive , the problem goes away. There are too many "breeders" who are just fat dumb fucks making money off breeding dogs because they have no other marketable skills.
SoylentNews is social media. Says so right in the slogan. Soylentnews is people, not tech.
(Score: 3, Informative) by Reziac on Saturday August 15 2020, @02:19PM (8 children)
In that case, start with banning rescues. NONE of those dogs were for sale by breeders. ALL of those dogs being smuggled in are for resale by 'rescue' which is the biggest financial scam going: get innocent good-hearted people to cover all your costs and do all the work, while you pocket the tax-free profits. The IRS statements (required to be public) from rescues that are registered as charities are quite an education... one need only be aware that "administrative expenses" is charity-speak for "owner's salary". (I've yet to see one less tha $55k/year, but most that I've looked at are in the $150k range, and one topped $750k.)
In California, where we have (or at least had, before the system was completely co-opted by rescue) good numbers, rescues actually outnumber breeders. Dog breeding is already illegal in most of California, with mandatory spay/neuter, and sale of purpose-bred dogs in public (which includes your front yard) is already illegal statewide ($10,000 fine, vs $1000 for assault... priorities!). But rescue is a huge and growing industry.
The real hilarity are the 'rescues' that specialize in some rare breed... one that was documented a few years back specialized in Maltese. This is a rare breed, with only about 500 Maltese puppies produced by legit breeders worldwide every year, and who the hell throws away a dog that cost them $2500 from a breeder?? Yet somehow this 'rescue' managed to have Maltese puppies available all the time. Turned out they were breeding 'em on the back 40 (or at least little white dogs that could be passed off as Maltese), and selling about 100 puppies a year for $500 each. This is not an unusual case.
Breeders have expenses in dogs, out of their own pockets. Rescues do not, because donations pay all their expenses. Breeders tell you what you're buying, and there is a verifiable pedigree and history. Rescues LIE about every dog's background, because (and this is a firsthand quote) "without a sob story, people won't open their wallets." Breeders are regulated up the yingyang, to the point that there's really no money in breeding dogs anymore. Rescues are almost entirely unregulated, and are vastly more profitable. (In fact, a lot of 'rescues' now breed their own puppies for 'adoption'. I have personally caught one redhanded, going around buying up every pregnant mutt they could find so they could resell the puppies.)
Breeders have to do their own work 365 days a year with no days off. Rescues get someone else to do most of the work, and only have to be the front man and collect the money.
A friend in CA who had a breeding kennel (the very last one in her breed in Los Angeles County) was told flat out by her tax accountant, who specialized in the animal industry: "Why do you still breed? All the real money nowadays is in rescue." And that was 20 years ago, when rescue was still up and coming rather than the dominant force in the dog market, as it is today.
All the "fat dumb fucks with no marketable skills" are on the side of rescue, not breeders.
And without breeders, all you'd have would be the feral street dog type, with no useful instincts and generally not safe around your kids. (Stat from the CDC from about ten years ago: at the time rescue dogs were 18% of the pet population, but committed 50% of the serious bites. I know of two cases where a 'rescue' dog killed its new owner within 24 hours of being 'adopted'. And there have been a few cases of imported 'rescue' dogs arriving with active rabies; one bit a child.)
Selective breeding makes dogs. Natural selection makes wolves.
And as to the 'inbreeding' accusation, on average 'purebred' dogs are around 4% inbred. (Somewhat higher in performance dogs, because they're selected for more than just looks. Funny thing, performance dogs also have fewer genetic defects than the run of the species. Could it be because we select against defects??) DNA analysis of several wild species with large populations found that on average, they're about 25% inbred. D'ya really think that buck cares that half those does are his daughters, and the rest are his half-sisters? of course not.
And a final note: in every other field, it's assumed that the more you practice a skill, the better you get at it. Only in dog breeding is it public gospel that the less you practice, the more you know and the better your skills. Why is that? actually, there's a point source: the Doris Day Animal League's decision to paint all breeders as "puppy mills" as part of their crusade to get rid of dog breeding. This was great propaganda, if the idea was to eliminate everyone who actually had enough experience to know what they're doing.
It's just like if anyone whose programming sklls go beyond "Hello World" was trashed as a hack and turned into a social pariah, and could therefore no longer make a living. What does that do to those who want or need those better skills?? what happens when no one is left who actually knows anything? Cuz that is where dog breeding is headed, thanks to well-meaning but misguided folk, who have heard all the anti-breeder propaganda but have no actual knowledge beyond that. Enjoy your Pakistani street dog, because someday that's all that will be left.
And there is no Alkibiades to come back and save us from ourselves.
(Score: 2) by barbara hudson on Sunday August 16 2020, @09:48PM (3 children)
I blame the assholes who buy dogs without thinking long term. It's supposed to be for life. And I blame the breeders, because they're just in it for the money or they'd stop breeding pigs and other dogs with huge problems. And I blame the kennel clubs for promoting the idea of "purebred " dogs. There's nothing wrong with mutts.
And I'd definitely go for a ban on importing "rescue " dogs. Canada has for decades been the dumping ground of greyhounds from US racetracks, the dogs high-strung, And prone to attack without warning.
SoylentNews is social media. Says so right in the slogan. Soylentnews is people, not tech.
(Score: 2) by Reziac on Sunday August 16 2020, @11:22PM (2 children)
Idiots exist, and when I was green I thought they were the majority too. But 50 years experience has taught me that this is not the case. Fewer people are irresponsible with their pets than with their kids. Did you know there are about 80 million pets in the U.S.?? if even 1% of owners are idiots, that's a lot of idiots, but it's still not the norm. Unfortunately the idiots do stand out (as idiots always do), but it's damn unfair to the rest of us. It's like saying... there are tons of viruses out there, so every programmer is obviously an irresponsible hacker, and there's no such thing as a well-written program.
And I don't know where you got that nonsense about racing greyhounds... they're typically rather laid back and lazy, not at all aggressive. However, I wouldn't put it past rescue outfits to sort out the bad ones (cuz there are always bad apples) and ship 'em off to the unsuspecting... but the main flow of rescue dogs is FROM Canada to the U.S. (In fact going by way of the 'underground railroad' through Canada is used to disconnect stolen dogs from any chance of recovery.)
I'm reminded of this:
https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2005/02/a-journey-on-the-dog-underground-railroad.html [slate.com]
(Receiving stolen property much?? and knowing rescues, there's probably little or no truth in Fly's origin story.)
Considering how most of the states where you can get decent prices for puppies (that is, above the break-even mark, which when I last worked it out, ~20 years ago, was about $800) also have puppy lemon laws... if someone is routinely selling defective puppies, they'll rapidly find themselves in a financial pit. You can't have it both ways -- either the puppies are fit for purpose and the breeder can reasonably make a little money, or they're not fit for purpose and someone will demand a refund and (typically) treble damages, or the puppy can't be sold at all because it's too damn obvious it has issues. And if one breeder is a bad apple, there are tons of trees in the orchard, and puppy buyers can easily go elsewhere. No one holds a gun to their heads and forces them to buy a problem puppy.
Meanwhile, there is court precedent in California that if you buy a puppy on time payments, but stop paying, you are allowed to stiff the breeder AND keep the puppy.
Incidentally, if purebreds are so awful, why do rescues assiduously pursue them? A: Because despite decades of propaganda, the buying public knows that dogs are not all the same, and that purebreds are more predictable. A common rescue scam is to get a breeder raided just before Xmas (most places, animal control is allowed or even required by regulation to confiscate on mere accusation, no proof of malfeasance required -- cuz dog breeders have no 4th Amendment rights), so the rescue has lots of nice purebred puppies to hawk as "rescued from a puppy mill". About 1/3rd of these puppies will die in shelter custody, due to ignorance and neglect.
As to health: at my old vet (who had an open practice but catered to breeders, so saw more purebreds than average) I had backroom privileges, and sometimes I'd tally up what came in the door and for what. Mutts consistently presented 90% of the serious health issues (notably, more injuries due to being escape artists and hit-by-car, and more autoimmune-related issues). Purebreds were rarely presented for anything other than routine shots and the like. This was Los Angeles, so probably about as representative a sample as you'll get.
And pet insurance offers a substantial discount for puppies from commercial breeders (what are castigated as 'puppy mills') over puppies from other sources. Why? Because these puppies receive better early care, so are about 20% less likely to have expensive health issues.
And there is no Alkibiades to come back and save us from ourselves.
(Score: 2) by barbara hudson on Monday August 17 2020, @12:08AM
Pet insurance is a joke. If the insurance company decides the cost is too great, they will only pay to put the dog down.
People keep buying gigs, I keep ending up with them for free. And most of these dogs are relatively young - from a few months to 3-4 years. The Jack Russell is the exception, at 5 years. And they end up dying of diseases of old age, mostly cancer., though the St Bernard ended up with a muscle wasting disease that left her unable to walk, through her hips were fine.
The best dog I ever had was a mutt. Dumped on me as a puppy (can you look after him for 10 days). Taught him how to be a guide dog when I found out I would eventually need one, and it's a good thing I can see better now, because the two little guys I have now are just too small.
If there were no breeders, people would still have dogs. Just not the same dogs.
SoylentNews is social media. Says so right in the slogan. Soylentnews is people, not tech.
(Score: 2) by barbara hudson on Wednesday August 19 2020, @01:21AM
SoylentNews is social media. Says so right in the slogan. Soylentnews is people, not tech.
(Score: 2) by barbara hudson on Sunday August 16 2020, @09:53PM (3 children)
SoylentNews is social media. Says so right in the slogan. Soylentnews is people, not tech.
(Score: 2) by Reziac on Sunday August 16 2020, @11:36PM (2 children)
Sorry, but you do not know what you're talking about. It is not even possible to "bulk register" puppies, and anyone who produces more than 6 litters, or has a male that sires more than 2 litters in a year, becomes subject to annual inspection by AKC (the primary registry). And you had damn well better know exactly who the parents are, and who the buyers are, and have all documentation ready to hand. Yes, there have been fuckups, but again they are not the norm (with 700k registrations per year, naturally there will be a few bad ones), and are generally limited to a single dog being substituted for the sire of record, or a single unknown 'traveling salesman' in the woodpile. (And actually, this happens a LOT more in Europe than in America. We're much more honest on this side of the ditch.) When fuckups are discovered, all descendants whose ancestry cannot be positively determined have their registration cancelled. Incidentally this has also been done in the case of untoward mutations, like the white Doberman.
I am, no brag, probably the world's foremost living expert on Labrador Retriever historical pedigrees, in particular the period in America from 1878 to the 1970s. And I know of a number of crossbreedings; some deliberate, some not. In every case, the crossbreeding introduced genetic defects that did not previously exist in the Labrador gene pool. In fact this is more typical than not, across all breeds. (Also know of a few cases of wrong sire on pedigree, but this is actually quite rare.)
Selective breeding is not just about selecting for desired traits; it's also about selecting against undesirable traits and defects. But when you introduce a new gene pool, such as from a crossbreeding, you also introduce all its defects, some of which may not be a defect in that breed, but function as a defect in the crossbred. Such as a Basset's short legs -- actually a form of dwarfism, but normal in Bassets. Cross that with say, a Lab, and you get Labs with dwarfed legs AND potentially with a form of blindness, perhaps due to some other gene not being there to balance things out (cuz there are tons of different alleles).
[Realworld examples: Skeletal Dysplasia 2 tracks to a point source, a terrier crossbreeding in 1966, probably a Staffie Bull. The bolting trait tracks to a pointer crossbreeding in 1946; we can deduce where in the pedigrees this happened. Cataracts in one particular field line trace to a Chesapeake crossbreeding ca.1952; I actually know who the Chessie was. CNM probably came from a cross with a racing greyhound ca,1970. Exercise-induced collapse came to America with an English dog, but probably hies from a Rottweiler cross done in England in the 1950s. The much-ballyhooed dilute gene is not from a Weimeraner, but rather from an Elkhound cross ca.1930. (However, the dilute colors in Dobermans DID come from a Weim.)]
Back in the 1950s there was a very large breeding research colony (they produced over 15,000 puppies) which among other things investigated inbreeding vs outcrossing. They found that with the inbred colony, at first they got more defects, but once they culled out all the defects, the inbred colony was actually healthier and longer-lived than the outcross colony. (This is in fact precisely my own experience, and at present I have 14 generations of my own line.) Naturally, since no new defects were being introduced, to pop up randomly in the future. And as noted in another post -- wild populations are vastly more inbred than domestic animals. If "inbreeding" was the problem, where are the defects? Turns out "generic bottlenecks" is not a given as bad-news either; there are examples of wild populations that descend from a single female, yet exhibit no issues, and they're starting to rethink what they thought they knew about this. Fact is the real key is whether defectives are culled, either through getting eaten or being knocked on the head.
Yet when professional breeders cull, they're castigated for 'cruelty'. You can't have it both ways. Either stop blaming us for Mother Nature's fuckups (and given that domestic dogs are the most genetically malleable and unstable of all species, there are a lot of fuckups, and no matter how careful one is, some will always be with us), or let us dispose of them so they don't become a burden to anyone else. We've managed to greatly reduce or even breed out some of nature's fuckups; do we get credit for that?? Hell no... (Examples: hip dysplasia is on average down by about 2/3rds since we started keeping track in 1965, thanks to breeders selecting against it; and we didn't 'create' it either -- the unselected species average is about 40% HD. Inherited blindness is also mostly a thing of the past, thanks to breeders selecting against it.)
Naturally the people who are most adamantly against rational culling are also all for "no kill" ... meaning every bad-tempered or health-challenged mutt is 'rescued', sold (er, I mean adopted), and becomes a problem to some unsuspecting sucker. Rescues actually LIKE this, because they require the animal be returned to them... so it can be sold again.
And there is no Alkibiades to come back and save us from ourselves.
(Score: 2) by barbara hudson on Wednesday August 19 2020, @01:18AM (1 child)
SoylentNews is social media. Says so right in the slogan. Soylentnews is people, not tech.
(Score: 2) by Reziac on Wednesday August 19 2020, @03:25AM
Sorry but you are wrong. I've been doing this professionally for 50 years; I think I have a clue. [And a few credentials: 14 generations of my own line; 3 AKC champions, 56 UKC champions (6 Grand CHs, 2 Reserve Best In Show, 1 Best In Show -- only 100% fieldbred Lab to get a BIS anywhere in the world since 1974), and about a dozen with field trial points or minor performance titles. Presently the 2nd oldest contiguous Lab bloodline in North America.]
Each litter is registered as being the offspring of a particular sire and dam (the puppies themselves are NOT YET REGISTERED), and THEN whoever owns each individual puppy can register it (and give it a registered name), be that the breeder or the end buyer. That is NOT "bulk registering" puppies. It is recording the existence, parentage, and makeup (how many males and females) of a single litter.
AKC and UKC have a provision where the breeder can, at the same time as the litter is recorded, ALSO individually register all the puppies -- paying for each one individually (albeit at a discount IF all are done at once). This was instituted because only a small fraction of puppy buyers ever register their puppy, and as registration fees kept going up, for breeders who wanted all puppies properly recorded, this was becoming a significant expense (then $20 each; it has since almost doubled). Also, increasingly breeders were falling away to the dozen or so minor registries (of varying legitimacy), or even reverting to private stud books, and AKC hoped to lure them back.
Didn't read the rest? Willful ignorance.
And there is no Alkibiades to come back and save us from ourselves.
(Score: 2) by Common Joe on Saturday August 15 2020, @03:50AM
Well, that escalated quickly.
I keep an open mind and come here looking to be educated. As a general rule, I don't fire off personal attacks and I don't make fun of people. And if you look at my history, I haven't made any against you. I've even given you some points in the past when I deemed your comments interesting. I politely request you tone it down. Not everyone is looking to pick a fight with you here.
In a quote further down, you say:
It's unfortunate that more dog owners are not as responsible as you. The fact is, most people are not responsible enough for this. They don't know how to train their dogs and they don't know how to keep them under control.
Male cats (and even some female cats) have the added bonus of spraying if they don't get neutered soon enough.
I feel I'm choosing between two distasteful things: being in a city overrun with stray dogs (been there, done that, not nice) and neutering. I still feel spaying and neutering is a valid (if not perfect) response to prevent rounding up strays and killing them to keep them under control -- even if it causes a large percentage to have joint problems later in life.
Please keep your response (if any) thoughtful.
(Score: 2) by Grishnakh on Friday August 14 2020, @05:36PM (8 children)
I disagree. The problem seems to be with large dogs (per the article title), so the solution is very simple: don't own large dogs. There's no good reason for it. If you want a pet, a small dog or a cat is much easier to take care of, costs less (because of less food over its lifetime), doesn't make such a big mess in your house, I could go on and on. Large dogs are terrible pets unless you live on a farm; for urban or suburban dwellers, they just make no sense at all. This article should be proof enough: with a large dog, either you neuter it and get joint problems (meaning $$$ vet bills later) or you don't neuter it and you get a bunch of unwanted puppies or the dog peeing in your house and doing other very undesirable behaviors. The solution is simple: don't get a large dog.
(Score: 2) by Reziac on Saturday August 15 2020, @03:13AM (4 children)
Depends on the dog, the bloodline, and the training. Some large dogs are much easier to deal with than the average small dog. Large dogs are also generally smarter, and have more purposeful breeding behind them toward some useful function, which tends to go along with desire to please and to work for humans. (Which can be a double-edged sword; the worst case is a smart dog and a foolish owner. Dog winds up in charge.)
Small dogs are not free of orthopedic problems; they just have different problems. In particular they're more prone to issues with the spine and stifle (knee) joint, and that's so whether neutered or not.
[Canine professional here with 50 years experience.]
And there is no Alkibiades to come back and save us from ourselves.
(Score: 2) by Grishnakh on Saturday August 15 2020, @05:11PM (3 children)
What do you need "purposeful breeding" for? Sure, if you need a dog to herd sheep on a farm, that makes sense, but the vast majority of dog owners don't have sheep or farms, they live in apartments or subdivision houses. All these things that dogs used to be useful for are no longer factors for the vast majority of the population. They're just an incredibly inconvenient pet that requires too much time, trouble, and money.
(Score: 2) by Reziac on Saturday August 15 2020, @07:13PM (2 children)
Being a little old lady's companion and lap warmer is a perfectly valid job, and there's a whole class of small dogs that were developed for exactly this purpose.
But more than that -- the reason the Labrador Retriever is so popular as a pet, even among people who have no clue about bird hunting, is because more than for any other breed, it was developed to please and work FOR man, and that is precisely what makes a good family companion.
Conversely the wild-type unselected temperament really could not care less what you want, is a self-hunter (hunts for itself, and fuck you), will readily bite for any or no reason, has nothing against attacking kids and other animals, cannot sit still or cope with boredom, and is entirely unsuitable for urban life, let alone any sort of useful work.
Temperament and innate (as distinguished from trained) behavior are inherited, and there's damn little you can do to change what came in the package. So either you select for (via purposeful breeding, or at least good selection practices such as with landrace breeds) an animal that is useful and fit to live with, or you just don't HAVE any animals that are either useful OR fit to live with.
Me, I'm not willing to put up with the selfish and unpredictable wild-animal temperament, when instead I can select for a pleasant, patient, safe, and useful animal.
And there is no Alkibiades to come back and save us from ourselves.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday August 15 2020, @07:36PM (1 child)
Are there any notable breeds other than Labs that you would recommend for urban living, and can you suggest any good techniques to assess the temper of a dog?
(Score: 2) by Reziac on Monday August 17 2020, @12:02AM
That depends a lot on you. It sounds like you have no experience. So: visit the breeders, and see how the parents interact with you. Are they pleasant and easy, or always trying to push for an advantage? are they calm and relaxed when you handle puppies, or nervous and growly? Are the puppies relaxed and willing to lick faces, or do they go tense and try to get away?
An easy test with puppies around weaning age is to put the puppy on your lap, on its back, with its head on your knees, and put your face right down by its face and blow at it. Ideally you want to see a puppy that is completely relaxed, and reacts to your blowing at it by licking your face. A really smart puppy that is all about people might rear back and put a foot on your mouth, but those are often "too much dog" for a novice. Likewise a really enthusiastic licker might be too much dog for you, but one that quietly scrubs your face is a good choice. You do NOT want a puppy that turns its head away, or worse, that tries to bite or escape or won't tolerate being on its back at all.This test is valid even if the puppy has not been handled much and is not accustomed to it, because it triggers innate reactions and does not rely on trained responses.
Also, you do not want to see puppies that seem to have trouble getting up after 3 weeks old (indicates future unsoundness). The earlier puppies have their legs firmly under themselves, the better, and this applies generally to the litter, not just to individuals.
As to which breed -- most breeds have a considerable range of temperaments, but for novice owners, you obviously do not want a dog that is too high-powered for you. Herding breeds tend to need a job, as do some hunting breeds, but again there's such a range in most, that it's hard to point at a breed and say yes or no. In working breeds it's common to have a range from "high-powered needs a job" to "lazy couch potato" even in the same litter. So I would do the face-licking check and go with an individual rather than a breed as such, so long as its general characteristics suit you.
Also, don't be afraid of "backyard breeders" -- these are the backbone of most breeds, and ordinary people generally will not breed from problem dogs (either health or temperament), because they just want a nice normal dog and couldn't care less if it is a champion or whatever, so long as it's good with the kids. They may not be professionals, but they're generally not idiots.
And there is no Alkibiades to come back and save us from ourselves.
(Score: 3, Informative) by Common Joe on Saturday August 15 2020, @03:55AM (2 children)
My family did have a good reason for owning big dogs when I was younger. I lived in a bad neighborhood. The kind where you heard gunshots fired many nights -- some literally right outside my front door. Robberies, burglaries, and other crime was pretty much rampant. My family was not robbed when I was younger -- mostly thanks to the multiple big dogs we owned. They are known as one of the best deterrents against crime.
(Score: 2) by Grishnakh on Saturday August 15 2020, @11:11PM (1 child)
My family did have a good reason for owning big dogs when I was younger. I lived in a bad neighborhood. The kind where you heard gunshots fired many nights -- some literally right outside my front door. Robberies, burglaries, and other crime was pretty much rampant
This is a good point I hadn't considered. So I guess dogs like that do make sense if you live in a dangerous, violent country such as El Salvador, Brazil, or the United States.
(Score: 2) by Common Joe on Sunday August 16 2020, @04:00AM
Sadly, you are correct. For the record, it was in the United States. I don't have to mention which city as there were plenty to pick from back then and there are even more today.