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'Long Covid': Why are some people not recovering?
For most people, Covid-19 is a brief and mild disease but some are left struggling with symptoms including lasting fatigue, persistent pain and breathlessness for months.
The condition known as "long Covid" is having a debilitating effect on people's lives, and stories of being left exhausted after even a short walk are now common.
So far, the focus has been on saving lives during the pandemic, but there is now a growing recognition that people are facing long-term consequences of a Covid infection.
Yet even basic questions - such as why people get long Covid or whether everyone will fully recover - are riddled with uncertainty.
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'Long Covid': Why are Some People not Recovering?
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(Score: 3, Interesting) by JoeMerchant on Monday October 12 2020, @03:25PM (40 children)
Do they speculate (or _gasp_ have actual data) about whether the deficiencies are pre-existing at the time of infection, or a result of the body's reaction?
Україна досі не є частиною Росії Слава Україні🌻 https://news.stanford.edu/2023/02/17/will-russia-ukraine-war-end
(Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Monday October 12 2020, @03:29PM (33 children)
What does it matter? If someone has symptoms of scurvy and is deficient in vitamin C they should correct the deficiency. Why would you not treat scurvy just because you found it in someone who had/has covid? That makes no sense.
But most likely it is both. These people were already low on vitamin C due to various comorbidities and poor diet then the oxidative stress of covid drained it even further.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday October 12 2020, @03:43PM (22 children)
Yes, regardless of whether or not having adequate Vitamin C has any impact on this illness, it's still a good idea to ensure that you've got enough of all vitamins and minerals just because they do have other health issues.
I remember for a time, they were looking at Vitamin D, but I haven't heard anything about that in recent months, so I don't know if there was anything other than just a correlation.
(Score: 1, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Monday October 12 2020, @03:51PM (5 children)
Vitamin D is also an antioxidant that gets depleted the same way:
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/8325381/ [nih.gov]
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/16179538/ [nih.gov]
Wouldnt be surprised if vitamin c was responsible for recycling vitamin d just like for vitamin e.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday October 12 2020, @04:32PM (4 children)
Vitamin C recycles vitamin E:
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32992851/ [nih.gov]
Vitamin D is probably similar, or is perhaps downstream from vitamin E in the membranes. Most people just study the role of the vitamin D receptor and don't consider it as an antioxidant.
(Score: -1, Offtopic) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday October 13 2020, @06:00AM (3 children)
So if I eat vitamin C gummies, I can also start smoking again? Can we start a petition for Albanese to make vitamin C gummy worms?
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday October 13 2020, @01:28PM
Vitamin c gummies are probably worthless because the glucose competes for absorption via GLUT transporters. I think those gummies are like 40:1 molar glucose to ascorbate ratio iirc.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday October 14 2020, @02:21PM
+1 for Albanese gummy worms
(Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Thursday October 15 2020, @02:51PM
If they're sugar free, you should live stream the next few days.
My rights don't end where your fear begins.
(Score: 3, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Monday October 12 2020, @04:25PM
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0960076020302764 [sciencedirect.com]
Here is another recent observational study confirming vitamin D deficiency is common in covid patients:
https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.10.05.20206706v1 [medrxiv.org]
There are dozens of papers on that you can easily search on pubmed.
(Score: 2, Informative) by choose another one on Monday October 12 2020, @04:48PM (14 children)
Vitamin D connection has to be looked at very very quietly because pointing out that living at a latitude your skin hasn't yet evolved for (we are all African if you go back far enough) affects your Vit D upsets the woke because it overturns their narrative that death rates are higher among those with darker skin in Europe/US because of poverty due to white racial oppression.
If you double down and point out that while death rates of Black Africans in Europe are at least double those of white folk, in actual Black-African countries in Africa (same people, worse poverty, but living at latitudes they are evolved for, except maybe South Africa...) death rates are far far lower, then they get even more woke-upset...
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday October 12 2020, @04:59PM
Not just latitude but also time spent in the sun matters. There are plenty of vitamin D deficient people in florida, etc.
(Score: 2, Disagree) by RS3 on Monday October 12 2020, @05:13PM (11 children)
I had to read your post several times to grasp your message. What you're saying might be true in some cases / people.
Not expert and no time to research but IIRC people with darker skin need more sunlight to generate the same amount of D as lighter-skinned people.
My comment to TFS and most of the posts here is that we just don't have enough data, there is so much we still don't know about COVID-19 and viruses in general, and we haven't been able to correlate the data and knowledge we do have to make sense of it all. The very point of TFA is that there is huge variation in patient symptoms and outcomes and we're not really sure why. Speculation is good as long as we can track the data to support the various theories.
But even then people's body chemistry varies widely, and there may be human biochemistry factors we don't yet know about.
I remember early on the science was that blood-type was a big factor in COVID susceptibility, disease length and course, etc. It's nearly impossible to gather all of the possible factors in each patient's case, but at least there's great effort.
Personally I wish _everyone_ could take part in helping the medical science effort. Kind of like "mechanical turk", "zooniverse", etc. And maybe there are opportunities to help in the effort, and maybe it's been talked about in the media... but for me the media is so overwhelmingly politics that I barely pay attention.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday October 12 2020, @05:28PM (7 children)
But we do know what to do for scurvy. So if people are deficient in vitamin c and showing symptoms of scurvy, the next step is pretty clear.
(Score: 2) by RS3 on Monday October 12 2020, @05:59PM (6 children)
Absolutely, agreed, and it's tedious to keep (over)stating the obvious.
I will concede a shortcoming in the medical world and maybe society in general: doctors / medical workers generally overlook diseases that they think have generally been wiped out, or that people don't get because common knowledge, proper diets, etc., - like scurvy.
Another example that's bugging me: months ago hand washing and hand sanitizer was all the rage (in the media). More recently masks have become the rage and controversy. Just from my casual observation, many people seem to have slacked off of the hand washing and sanitizer use. Initially you could not buy sanitizer if your life literally depended on it. Store shelves were empty, not being replenished. (no clue where it was going). Jerks were selling it at 10X prices. Fake stuff popped up here and there. Homemade recipes were everywhere. Now I rarely see / hear of it.
It'd be nice to have 1 place- website- that accumulates ALL of the common knowledge / precautions for COVID. Blood-type, vitamins, etc.
BTW, BBC article yesterday said new data shows COVID can last up to 28 days on hard surfaces. Far cry and big problem compared to the 2-3 days previously thought.
Not to be reckless, but would a 27-day old COVID virus cell cause an infection? How many such cells would be required to infect someone? If you handled such a thing, how likely could you be infected? What would be the mechanism?
Which reminds me of another that belongs on the list of things we heard but aren't being talked about much anymore: not touching your face, especially eyes, nose, and mouth, without good hand washing / sanitizer.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday October 12 2020, @08:04PM (5 children)
Translation: someone decided that "second wave" is a good time to repeat the push for abolition of cash (remember the failed campaign in the spring?) Expect more horror stories with ever more outlandish claims.
Observe the more direct FUD headline: "Don't touch this! Coronavirus stays on banknotes, mobile phone screens and steel for up to 28 DAYS" [dailymail.co.uk]
Enjoy.
Observe how any horror-reducing observation are relegated to "*" and "**" and tiny little unreadable font in the infographics. Isn't that nice?
Note that the actual facts like "Samples were incubated in the dark to limit any effect light might have on viral decay" never entered the nice article(s).
https://virologyj.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s12985-020-01418-7 [biomedcentral.com]
Note that PIN keyboards are never mentioned, apparently being miraculously protected from The Coronavirus by holy dispensation of Big Finance.
(Score: 2) by PartTimeZombie on Monday October 12 2020, @08:55PM (2 children)
WAKE UP SHEEPLE!
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday October 12 2020, @09:37PM
BAAAAAA!!!
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday October 12 2020, @10:55PM
https://www.henrymakow.com/upload_images/sheeple-masks.jpg [henrymakow.com]
(Score: 2) by hendrikboom on Wednesday October 14 2020, @03:17AM (1 child)
At least Canadian banknotes can be washed with soap and water.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday October 15 2020, @09:22AM
Slow down there, Hendrik. Everybody knows laundering money is illegal.
(Score: 2) by HiThere on Monday October 12 2020, @07:32PM (2 children)
OTOH, there is also evidence, how definitive I don't know, that blacks/negros/AfricanAmericans (except the source was British)/whatever-name-you-prefer metabolize vitamin D differently than Caucasians do. It didn't mention orientals, etc. It didn't say in what way they were different, but merely suggested that using the same yardstick might be a bad idea. (IOW, it didn't have an alternative suggestion. It did suggest that lower levels might not be a problem, but gave no reasoning or evidence.)
Sometimes the needed evidence isn't available. But keeping your levels of Vitamin D up seems like a good idea...just don't overdo it, because that also has it's problems.
Anyone who is dogmatic about ANY of these points is a fool. The evidence isn't there to support the claim. But the evidence for moderate levels of various vitamins and minerals is pretty strong, and SOME people benefit from doing so. (OTOH, there's also evidence that viruses often do better in people who are "well-nourished", but that term was not defined in the report I read. So perhaps that just meant overweight.)
Javascript is what you use to allow unknown third parties to run software you have no idea about on your computer.
(Score: -1, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Monday October 12 2020, @07:56PM (1 child)
Anyone dogmatic about trying vitamin c for someone with low vitamin c levels and symptoms of scurvy is a fool?
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday October 13 2020, @06:10AM
More like a vitamin C addict, snorting lemons and oranges. Get help.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday October 13 2020, @08:25PM
i agree with your proposal to send 'em all home for their own benefit.
(Score: 3, Insightful) by JoeMerchant on Monday October 12 2020, @03:56PM (3 children)
If it is depletion, then supplements upon diagnosis are much more urgent.
If it is pre-existing, the odds of non-causal correlation are much higher.
Україна досі не є частиною Росії Слава Україні🌻 https://news.stanford.edu/2023/02/17/will-russia-ukraine-war-end
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday October 12 2020, @04:01PM (2 children)
Do you think someone with covid who also has scurvy is better off than a covid patient without scurvy? How would that happen?
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday October 12 2020, @06:33PM (1 child)
I think the serum concentration definition level of Scurvy may be a poor correlation for COVID survival rates, but the jury is still out on that one.
Take some chloroquinine while you're at it.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday October 12 2020, @06:42PM
I think the serum concentration definition level of Scurvy may be a poor correlation for COVID survival rates, but the jury is still out on that one.
Based on what? There is one study published on that. The deaths had levels of 15 uM and survivors 30 uM, when healthy is 50 uM. Seems like a pretty clear correlation to me.
(Score: 5, Touché) by epitaxial on Monday October 12 2020, @05:52PM (5 children)
My car has a flat tire and won't start. Clearly the flat tire is causing the engine to fail.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday October 12 2020, @06:46PM
So you would conclude there is no reason to fix the flat tire since it isnt causing the engine issue? What is that supposed to mean?
(Score: 2) by Tork on Monday October 12 2020, @07:20PM
🏳️🌈 Proud Ally 🏳️🌈
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday October 12 2020, @08:34PM
Connecting this [wikipedia.org] to an ignition lockout wouldn't be difficult.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday October 13 2020, @12:16AM (1 child)
Fix the tire. Then you can at least push it (or have it towed) to where you can fix the engine. Even if not related, you should fix the obvious problems to make fixing the less obvious problems easier. Seems like common sense. Right?
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday October 13 2020, @06:02AM
You sound like a vitamin C addict to me. We should ban vitamin C.
(Score: 4, Informative) by nishi.b on Monday October 12 2020, @07:07PM (1 child)
It seems that most severe cases have a different immune reaction that involves neutrophils producing large amounts of oxydants to attack the pathogen, which might explain antioxidants being "used up" ?
Ref: https://www.nature.com/articles/s41577-020-0407-1 [nature.com]
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday October 13 2020, @03:50AM
Any source of ROS will do it, but it does seem to be more extreme in covid than usual critical illness.
(Score: 2) by choose another one on Monday October 12 2020, @11:07PM (1 child)
Whichever, it isn't relevant to _long_ covid, which is symptoms several months after infection.
EITHER someone's diet is seriously deficient and they get scurvy, in which case they would have had Scurvy before covid, in which case they would also have had these symptoms before covid (many/most long covid sufferers report being fit and healthy beforehand),
OR someone's diet has enough Vit C, so they will not be deficient months after Covid (even if Covid depletes it in the acute phase, and remember many of these folk had very mild acute phase), so they will not have Scurvy now.
Only, kind of, other possibility is that covid _causes_ dietary changes in people (all ships' biscuits and no fruit) or _causes_ some kind of problem with vit C absorption - in which case treating for Scurvy (oral Vit C...) ain't going to do any good. On the other hand, why not give vit C, if not better in 2-3 days then "long covid" ain't scurvy. Quick, practically zero risk, eliminates a differential, holy shit why the heck ain't someone tried it already. Oh, wait... https://www.newsletter.co.uk/health/coronavirus/pastor-reveals-battle-long-covid-six-months-after-leaving-hospital-2986226 [newsletter.co.uk]
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday October 12 2020, @11:20PM
They probably always had low vitamin C, but covid depleted it and their diet was never sufficient to get the oxidative stress under control. It could be easily answered with a 100 dollar blood test in a few of them.
This doesn't mean anything. A dietician is probably giving like 1 g/day max, more likely 100 mg or something sufficient for healthy people but not someone who is currently ill. How much is she giving him and what are the blood levels?
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday October 13 2020, @12:32AM (1 child)
Surprises of surprises but people who come to the ER to seek care for infectious diseases tend to be undernurished. If you are coming to the ER for an infectious disease, it is because it has lasted a long time, is severe, or both. Not surprisingly when someone feels bad for a long time or really bad for a short time, they often don't eat well. If you don't eat well, it doesn't take too long for serum levels for all sorts of things to drop.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday October 13 2020, @01:46AM
Why would it be surprising? All critically ill people require 30-300x more vitamin C to maintain healthy levels. There are many papers on this.