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If you bring up UBI, or other reforms, you'll inevitably get someone who brings up: "voting yourself someone else's money".
You could convince me, except that things have gotten to an absurd state.
I look at some graphs of wealth inequality and it is unimaginably shocking. I never dreamed it could be this bad. More than 50% of the US wealth is owned by 5% of the people. [1] 35% is owned by only 1% of the population.
This image from this article also tells the story.
I'm not going to argue how accurate those numbers are. Rather, I will extrapolate the trend.
Let's continue the current trend to its logical absurd conclusion. The entire planet is owned by one single person. You (and everyone else) are one of the wage slaves in the bottom 99.99999999 % of the population (at least 8 decimal places). [7.5 billion people, minus that one person who owns everything, then divided by 7.5 billion people.]
Naturally, we should respect property ownership. Somehow this one person deserves and "earned" the wealth of the entire planet through his hard and diligent efforts and deserves to own everything and everyone. It is absurd on its face.
At this logical endpoint, it clearly seems that the rest of the planet should seize the wealth of the one person.
Wealth transfer has already happened. And is still happening. Republicans are just fine with this as long as it is all trickling upward.
Yes, "voting yourself someone else's money" involves taking away some of the absurd amounts of wealth hoarded up by a few. Amounts of individual wealth that one person couldn't spend in a lifetime; then leaves to others, who themselves can't spend it in their lifetime.
Not as a proposal, but just to make a point, hypothetically, if all of these people who exceed this threshold had their net worth capped at $100 Million, they would still be just fine. Yes, really! They would still live in fabulous homes, drive fabulous cars, and eat whatever they wanted, travel wherever and whenever they wanted -- for the rest of their natural lives.
In case my "one man owns the world" didn't get the idea across, I'll be more blunt. Any time too few people have owned way, way too much, and too many had nothing, there is always an uprising. I'm not proposing an uprising. I'm merely warning it is inevitable. Hopefully not in my lifetime. Maybe it would be better to solve this peacefully where the wealthiest, while heavily taxed, still end up, after taxes, fabulously wealthy beyond the dreams of most everyone else. I'm not proposing reducing all the rich people's wealth to some cap. Just that they should pay their fair share. Why are they the ones who get the tax cuts?
(Score: 3, Interesting) by Azuma Hazuki on Tuesday October 27 2020, @11:09PM (37 children)
Fallacy of relative privation. In a developed nation with as much wealth as we have, NO ONE should be having trouble getting food. And I mean *food,* not processed foil-wrapped packets of high-fructose corn syrup and hydrogenated palm oil slathered onto compressed potato dust.
I have been homeless and destitute enough to have to eat from trash cans, and this when I do not and never did drink, smoke, gamble, do drugs, etc; it came entirely from just being fucking poor. So to hear this shit from you really rankles. I am hoping this new SCOTUS "justice" blows away all the programs people your age and older rely on, so you can have a taste--pardon the choice of words!--of this sort of thing. It would serve you precisely right, and after all, it would only be a consequence of you getting your supposed "originalist" (you gullible fucking rube...) on the Court!
The fallacy of relative privation I mentioned above, explicitly spelled out, is "if anyone else anywhere any*when* ever had it worse than you, you don't get to complain." It's complete bullshit, and I think somewhere deep down a little part of even *you* knows it's complete bullshit. Pull the jackboot out of your mouth, open your eyes, and get wise to what's been happening in this country since Reagan was elected.
I am "that girl" your mother warned you about...
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday October 27 2020, @11:25PM (7 children)
Classy. Social programs and shelters exist, the problem with long term homelessness is not lack of social provision but lack of mental health provision. [twitter.com] UBI will not help those who will spend it on drugs.
(Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Tuesday October 27 2020, @11:44PM (1 child)
I can state that those social programs almost universally suck ass. They are almost all aimed at women with children. A healthy adult with no children doesn't get shit. An unhealthy adult without children might get something, if they meet very narrow criteria so that one program or another covers them. If you're female with 9 kids, you're good to go, and government will give you a couple more dollars for kid number 10. A person temporarily down on their luck ain't gonna get shit in most states.
Abortion is the number one killed of children in the United States.
(Score: 1, Funny) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday October 28 2020, @01:56AM
Poor Runaway! Not only beaten up by sixteen cops, but denied welfare benefits because he was a shiftless able-bodied male! So unfair!!! Trumpian levels of unfairness!
(Score: 3, Informative) by Azuma Hazuki on Tuesday October 27 2020, @11:47PM (1 child)
And thank Goddess the shelter DID exist. If I had not found it beforehand (sometimes you can see these things coming) I'd likely be dead.
Know the kicker, though? I was working full-time the entire time. And the woman at the transition-from-homelessness office told me, to my face, that 20K a year was "too rich" for any sort of assistance. I hope there is a special Hell for that kind of person, and I hope the stay in Hell is followed up by a reincarnation into somewhere like Somalia.
Working. Full-time. And homeless. That moment, then and there, was when I finally gave completely up on this country. A sober, clean, intelligent, productive working woman should never, EVER lack for shelter or food. This country is a bad joke and I'm not fucking laughing.
I am "that girl" your mother warned you about...
(Score: 0, Redundant) by khallow on Wednesday October 28 2020, @01:18AM
This was while you were in New York City, right? I hate one-size-fits-all programs. It might have been a good threshold for rural New York in their part of the Rust Belt.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday October 28 2020, @02:53AM (2 children)
I've been homeless too, and Azuma is 100% correct.
Don't go on about programs and shelters until you've had all your worldly belongings stolen from you while you slept, gotten the crap kicked out of you or raped in one of those "shelters." Which is why i stayed far away from those dangerous places when I was homeless.
The way homeless folks are treated in the US is shameful and cruel. Unless you've been on the other side of that, don't presume to know what it's like. You have no clue.
Having been there myself, what I have to say to selfish, oblivious scum like you is "Fuck you."
(Score: -1, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday October 28 2020, @02:20PM (1 child)
Why would we make homelessness easy or incentivize it - you got a wake-up call did you not?
(Score: 1) by khallow on Friday October 30 2020, @01:18PM
(Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Tuesday October 27 2020, @11:28PM (26 children)
You've been at the bottom. Did you pull yourself off the bottom, and rise toward the top? Feels good, doesn't it? You're no longer the bottom most link on the food chain.
Would you deprive others of that good feeling? That sense of accomplishment? The knowledge that you genuinely DESERVE your place, your home, your food, your possessions, because you EARNED them?
But, that "relative privation" thing, as you call it. It's applicable. If your belly is full, you're clothed and sheltered reasonably comfortably, and you've got a few toys to play with - you have little to complain about.
Abortion is the number one killed of children in the United States.
(Score: 3, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday October 27 2020, @11:44PM (1 child)
You can get that sense of accomplishment in a thousand different ways that have nothing to do with working. That's just the old "Protestant work ethic" bullshit that gets thrown around like being a compliant slave is a desirable trait.
(Score: 1) by khallow on Wednesday October 28 2020, @01:38AM
You can, but you probably won't. The same thing robbing you of said sense of accomplishment here, probably will do the same for any other activity you manage.
(Score: 2) by Azuma Hazuki on Tuesday October 27 2020, @11:50PM (22 children)
What the AC said. God...*damn,* you just insist on doubling down on your complete sociopathy, don't you? And as a consequence of said sociopathy you don't even realize how fucking evil the things you say are.
Once again: I hope your shiny new "originalist" (hah!) SCOTUS destroys every single social program people your age rely on right out from under you. You can spend the last 5 years of your life or so sleeping under a bridge scrounging for food in dumpsters. Maybe you'll finally fucking get it through your head right before you die...
I am "that girl" your mother warned you about...
(Score: 2, Insightful) by Runaway1956 on Wednesday October 28 2020, @12:05AM (2 children)
What the AC said is bullshit. I suspect that the AC in question is one who is obsessed with me, and follows me around like a good little doggie.
Most people who "get it through their heads" tend to die soon after. Please don't threaten me with assassination like that.
Abortion is the number one killed of children in the United States.
(Score: 1, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday October 28 2020, @12:13AM
Shut your pie hole you sociopathic dimwit. The country has woken up, fools like keep supporting fascist oppression with lame ideology that has been proven harmful over and over.
Hop on that B ark, I hear it is taking you to magadise.
(Score: 1, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday October 28 2020, @02:00AM
Nobody is obsessed with you, Runaway, they are just revolted by you! You are so stupid, so racist, so classist, so Fox Newsy! You are wrong on everything you opine on, but still feel the need to tell us all about it? Please, cease and desist. You may die soon, given your demographic and level of stupidity. Try to do so with some shred of dignity.
(Score: 0, Troll) by khallow on Wednesday October 28 2020, @01:43AM (13 children)
This shows the weakness of your narrative. Once again, you're hoping bad things happen to your critics because otherwise, you got nothing, well except ineffectual hoping.
Well, I hope something good happens to you. I hope you get a clue!
(Score: 2) by Azuma Hazuki on Wednesday October 28 2020, @02:18AM (12 children)
That's rich coming from you. Back it up and pack it in, Hallow, you're *done.* Everyone has seen what bad faith you argue in and you have slightly less credibility than Mike Hudson at this point...and he makes more economic sense than you even in the midst of a psychotic episode.
I am "that girl" your mother warned you about...
(Score: 1) by khallow on Wednesday October 28 2020, @02:27AM (11 children)
We've had this discussion before about my imaginary "bad faith". It's the same every time. You never can mention a single real world example of it and why it's supposed to be bad faith.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday October 28 2020, @03:24AM
I think we have found khallow's problem.
(Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday October 28 2020, @03:47AM (3 children)
Exqueeze me? Baking powder?
That sounds sociopathic, which matches your approach to human civilization.
Azuma was replying to Runaway's politics which harms the most vulnerable people under the guise of the prosperity gospel, where rich is equated with good, power with righteousness.
Your entire contribution to the argument was
You ignore the reality of people in need, people actively able and willing to WORK, and you pretend they don't deserve help. They don't deserve the opportunity to do the best they can with their lives, because some people would rather have a few more gold coins in their vault.
Top kek trying to preemptively mount the high road after yet another bout of intellectual failure by doing exactly what you accuse Azuma of doing. At least she had a real point, old people tend to forget how many of their friends and family rely on medicare.
Wrapping up -
So you didn't understand Azuma's point, brought in some petty insults, and declared yourself winner. -.- ;
(Score: 1) by khallow on Wednesday October 28 2020, @04:32AM (2 children)
I see two things here. First, you drop down into yet another irrelevant narrative just like Azuma does. In a post, we ignore a billion irrelevant realities because we can't say everything about everything. Second, you too ignore the reality of the same list of shit you just scolded me on, because you too can't say everything about everything.
No I didn't. That was the point. As to her point, she didn't have one. It's the usual say something when you have nothing to say garbage. Just like you did here. Finally, since the rest of your post isn't worth bothering with:
Your inability to perceive is not my sociopathy.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday October 28 2020, @10:29PM (1 child)
Said better than I could
https://soylentnews.org/comments.pl?noupdate=1&sid=40308&page=1&cid=1070118#commentwrap [soylentnews.org]
You are not worth arguing with, the only response is always "no because muh dumb points"
Why argue with true believers? Really no point in it when verifialke reality is ignored in favor of fake news bullshit.
To draw a comparison, Loyder with Crowder did a podcast on some glacier expanding and declared "checkmate libs" while totally ignoring the global trend of ice loss. Cherry picked examples is all you have left because reality is asserting itself. You are free to be a crowder head here on SN, but you should expect to be mocked mercilessly for such bullshit tactics and bad faith arguing.
(Score: 1) by khallow on Thursday October 29 2020, @01:39PM
In other words, you have nothing to say, but you have to say it anyway. Those "muh dumb points" are why I believe what I believe. I'm not going to change my mind just because you've noticed that I have reasons for my beliefs.
You haven't addressed them then, and continue not to address them now, leading to lack of change in "muh dumb points". What's the point of complaining that someone doesn't agree when there's no reason for them to agree with you?
So what? Remarks that boil down to "muh dumb points" or (as in the above linked post) "I haven't placed any argument before you this time." aren't criticism that will stick. They are noise. I would start with the observation that there is more than one glacier and go from there (# glaciers that are advancing versus # of glaciers that are retreating).
I use cherry picked examples when someone makes universal statements. It shows those statements are false. That's how logic works. If someone were to say "all glaciers are retreating", which is the sort of universal statement, then noting that some glaciers aren't is a valid point though it may not be enough to reverse the argument. If they say "most glaciers are retreating", then cherry picking glaciers that are retreating doesn't affect the argument.
(Score: 1, Flamebait) by Azuma Hazuki on Wednesday October 28 2020, @09:47AM (5 children)
Please, you have your head so far up your own ass you can taste that cheeseburger your grandpa ate at the 1972 Memorial Day cookout. And now even random-ass ACs (WHY won't these people register? I don't have enough mod points to bump insightul comments up from far enough!) are dissecting your bullshit piece by piece.
Refusing to understand something doesn't make it wrong, any more than locking yourself in a windowless basement and scribbling "darkness" on the walls in your own shit can blow out the sun. And make no mistake, Hallow, what you are doing is exactly the mental equivalent of locking yourself in your own basement (your skull) and fingerpainting the walls with your own excrement.
I am "that girl" your mother warned you about...
(Score: 1) by khallow on Wednesday October 28 2020, @12:25PM (4 children)
Because then they'd be on record and have a record I could contest. Anonymous accusations are easy to defend. Nobody knows who made them.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday October 28 2020, @04:56PM (3 children)
Not the AC you have been jousting with (or trying to joust with in your own typically palsied sort of a way), but I always post as AC. And the reason is to stop idiots like you from trying to bring in extraneous arguments to use as distraction from your losing arguments. See, when I post as AC you actually have to address the argument placed in front of you rather than go for the ad hominem as distraction.
And I will just point out that an argument does not stand or fall based on the person making the argument. Hence the reason it is called an ad hominem fallacy. Yeah, I know it really gets under your skin that you lose the ability to deflect and distract.
Obligatory smirk: But that is a price I am more than willing to pay.
(Score: 1) by khallow on Wednesday October 28 2020, @06:44PM (2 children)
So what is this argument that you've allegedly placed in front of me? It's missing!
Hypocrisy, lying, etc are other reasons that an argument can fall when you've made different arguments elsewhere. This is a Fustakrakich specialty. Or when the poster demonstrates a pattern of abuse or delusion. Azuma has done this a few [soylentnews.org] times [soylentnews.org], that's also relevant to bring up.
I see once again a complete absence of detail. And of course, we only have your word that you're not the same nuisance AC as before.
(Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday October 28 2020, @10:08PM (1 child)
I haven't placed any argument before you this time. I'm merely pointing out to you that when I do choose to engage you (or anyone else) in discussion I always do it is as AC. In the future, do try to read for comprehension.
Actually, no. That is the classic ad hominem fallacy. Fair point to note the hypocrisy when people do that kind of thing but it doesn't change the validity of the argument itself.
*Shrug* You can believe whatever your addled mind wants to believe. But I'm sure that you and everyone else knows that anyone has the ability to post as AC. There are lots of us posting here on SN as AC. Surprise!
(Score: 1) by khallow on Thursday October 29 2020, @03:22AM
This is the second such post. How about you drop this nonsense and post when you finally have something to say? I'll note your previous post assured me that I would have to address your argument when you posted - none of the above weasel-speak.
Except of course, when such hypocrisy, lying, etc is material to the discussion. Then it's not an ad hominem fallacy.
I don't mind thoughtful, substantial discussion. But when are you going to do it, rather than merely say you're going to do it?
(Score: 1) by khallow on Friday October 30 2020, @01:20PM (4 children)
The deathbed confession is such a wonderful plot device.
(Score: 2) by Azuma Hazuki on Friday October 30 2020, @09:23PM (3 children)
You don't need to confess. I don't want a public mea culpa from you; no, if anything, I hope you *do* die in this state, to make certain you reincarnate poor and/or racial minority and/or somewhere on the queer spectrum, preferably all three at once plus getting screwed over by a "libertarian" landlord or boss.
I am "that girl" your mother warned you about...
(Score: 1) by khallow on Friday October 30 2020, @09:47PM (2 children)
My take is that if I have to get born into a ridiculously contrived scenario in order to achieve your sense of justice, then it's your sense of justice that's at fault, not my alleged perfidies.
(Score: 2) by Azuma Hazuki on Friday October 30 2020, @11:41PM (1 child)
You don't pay attention to a single fucking thing people say, do you?
YES, you are doing wrong: you support policies that cause needless suffering and misery to others. The very fact that you don't think you've done anything wrong is WHY you are going to go to Hell and then reincarnate in a position to suffer from the imposition of the very policies you support.
You were, for whatever reason, given a life of relative comfort and safety in which to learn the hard lessons of humanity in an easier, hands-off way. If you fail to pass the theory exam, as it were, then you'll have to sit for the practical...*after* detention. I don't expect you to change in this lifetime, and I don't expect anything I say to change you. Only suffering will do that.
I am "that girl" your mother warned you about...
(Score: 0, Troll) by khallow on Saturday October 31 2020, @01:11AM
Your idiocy is not my inability to pay attention.
Support that claim. Don't just say it.
Once again, that is code for "I have nothing to say, but I have to say it anyway." You keep claiming that I'm not listening, but then you say bullshit like that. Sorry, I can't do anything with your nothing.
(Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday October 28 2020, @02:55AM
What about the 1 in 7 who don't have full bellies? The hundreds of thousands out on the streets with only the clothes on their backs?
Yeah, they're doing just fine, huh?
(Score: -1, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Friday October 30 2020, @01:09AM (1 child)
Then clearly you made a poor choice somewhere. But since we know nothing of you but what you tell us, we can't point out that poor choice that you made.
(Score: 2) by Azuma Hazuki on Friday October 30 2020, @09:26PM
Yeah, I chose to help an old family friend around the house in exchange for cheap rent, when it turns out said family friend has been violently insane for a few years and somehow none of us knew. That kind of bad choice. The kind that you don't even know you're making because you're not in possession of all the facts and are physically incapable of being so.
Fuck you.
I am "that girl" your mother warned you about...