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The Guardian has a story detailing the firing of Christopher Krebs, who served as the director of the Department of Homeland Security's Cybersecurity and Infrastructure Security Agency (Cisa)
President Trump made the announcement on Twitter on Tuesday, saying Krebs "has been terminated" and that his recent statement defending the security of the election was "highly inaccurate".
CISA last week released a statement refuting claims of widespread voter fraud. "The November 3rd election was the most secure in American history," the statement read. "There is no evidence that any voting system deleted or lost votes, changed votes, or was in any way compromised."
Krebs, is a former Microsoft executive, and was appointed by President Trump after allegations of Russian interference with the 2016 election.
(Score: 3, Insightful) by slinches on Thursday November 19 2020, @05:16PM (20 children)
My confidence in the election process is far lower than ever.
The way the voting system is set up it is exceptionally difficult to prove fraud. Combine that with people who are actively working to obscure any fraud that falls in their favor and how would you expect it to be found? On top of that, there are legal methods of vote manipulation like redistricting and getting 3rd parties on/off of ballots strategically. And everything that has gone on in the courts, exposing some of the count practices has shown we haven't learned anything from the 2000 debacle. Sure there are no hanging chads this time, but the lack of transparency with the electronic voting machines more than makes up for that.
(Score: 4, Interesting) by JoeMerchant on Thursday November 19 2020, @05:43PM (17 children)
Really? Fake people registered to vote, how is that hard to prove?
Person votes twice - how many times has that been shown? It would be very hard to refute if you have done it.
Person has their vote "stolen" by somebody else intercepting their ballot in the mail before they get it and votes under their name, how many complaints of this happening have been shown as even slightly credible?
Ballot intercepted in the mail-in process and changed - would leave physical evidence, or be costly/labor intensive to make the change indetectable, and some percentage would be detected. How many of these?
Poll workers stuffing ballot boxes, maybe in a "solid color" county - but independent observers have been unable to produce a single shred of evidence of this.
I have no doubt that small numbers of all of the above have happened, but nothing approaching even 0.01% of the total vote. If it were large scale (over 1000 votes) there would be at least 1% of cases where people slipped up enough to get caught with at least semi-credible proof.
The main type of election influence/fraud I have seen reported is mass dumping of ballots, particularly from areas where the votes are expected to be biased one way or the other. This has been reported a few times on mail carriers, and a couple of counties "accidentally" forgot to add batches of votes to their totals, though these are getting exposed (proven) in the recounts, and still don't amount to 0.01% influence of the total vote.
Voter suppression tactics, up through and including sabotage of the mail system, would seem to have more influence. Gerrymandering definitely has more influence, but I suppose those are legal and therefore should be quietly submitted to?
As I said elsewhere - in 2000 it felt like dirty pool probably made the difference and got Bush in, but the result was very close to a tie. 2020 doesn't feel anywhere near tie territory, and the small quantities of dirty pool that has been exposed so far would seem to be biased mostly in Trump's favor. I certainly have faith that they would come forth with any hard evidence they have, but so far 70 million supporters don't seem to have anything solid at all.
Україна досі не є частиною Росії Слава Україні🌻 https://news.stanford.edu/2023/02/17/will-russia-ukraine-war-end
(Score: 3, Insightful) by slinches on Thursday November 19 2020, @07:00PM (3 children)
Exceptionally hard to prove unless you do complete audits of the voter registration lists before every election.
People who vote more than once don't use their own name the second time.
How would you know if it's credible or not? You would have to prove a negative (having not received a ballot) to have a strong case. Either that or the voter would have to make a formal complaint and the person committing the fraud would have to simultaneously make a really dumb mistake like signing the wrong name on the envelope. If any of these cases are provable, it would imply a large number of attempts were made successfully.
Do you know the rules for observers and what they are really allowed to see? In PA, that they are in the same room where the count is happening (regardless of whether they are close enough to see anything) is sufficient to satisfy the requirements per the state supreme court. Many other states have similar issues and even when the observers observe something, it isn't acted upon.
Of course not. We should put a stop to manipulation of voting districts, but that's not the only legal way to subvert an election. There was an openly stated objective by the Democratic party to get Green party candidates off the ballots in swing states. That appears to have had a significant influence in the outcomes there and shouldn't have been legal either.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday November 20 2020, @01:34AM
In my state of residence (New Mexico), voter registration lists are available at any time for a fee. Presumably you can "audit" as much as you like, any time you like.
I'm pretty sure that if I requested a ballot and did not get it, I would know in pretty short order. How many times has this actually happened?
Could you quantify "significant influence"? Do you know of any instance in which this was likely to have affected the outcome of the election?
(Score: 2) by JoeMerchant on Friday November 20 2020, @02:04AM (1 child)
Financial processing software code monkeys don't really know what an audit is, do they? Complete audit is an oxymoron. An audit is a representative sampling of a much larger population, enough to find significant problems. 2 million registered voters in Orange County, CA? A proper audit sample of 2,000 should be enough to detect any significant fraud.
Apparently that depends on which candidate they believe in: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-nation/wp/2016/10/29/trump-supporter-charged-with-voting-twice-in-iowa/ [washingtonpost.com] https://www.nytimes.com/2020/09/02/us/politics/trump-people-vote-twice.html [nytimes.com] https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-election/georgia-voter-fraud-jail-time-mail-ballot-trump-b420755.html [independent.co.uk]
Bullshit. My ballot goes missing, then turns up in the tracker as counted when I didn't get it? Channel 10 news here I come, and a squad of auditors checks the signature, postmark, delivery address, payment method used for the P.O. Box (if the fraudster is even that bright), security footage from the post office boxes, etc. And even if the perp gets away, that shit is all over the world news.
So with the Trump brigade in the room you're suggesting that the poll workers are pulling fake ballots out of their asses to stuff the boxes with? or what exactly?
So, dirty pool is only allowed on one side of the aisle? Openly stated and illegal are very different things, and the Green party candidates - and people who influenced the balloting process - may have decided that in this particular election their own interests were best served by retiring early, you know like the gaggle of Republitard Presidential hopefuls didn't in 2016?
Україна досі не є частиною Росії Слава Україні🌻 https://news.stanford.edu/2023/02/17/will-russia-ukraine-war-end
(Score: 3, Insightful) by slinches on Friday November 20 2020, @05:08AM
Who is this response targeted at? I'm not a coder at all really. I may have misused the term, but the idea was there that you need to completely purge the voter rolls of ineligible voters before the election to effectively catch voter fraud. Otherwise, their ballot goes into the pile with the rest and even if you later determine that fraud occurred, you can't take back that vote because you can't prove what the vote was. So, no a sample is not sufficient. The voter registration lists need to contain only legally eligible voters.
Nope, just another non-credible complaint. You must be another one of those Trump supporters trying to undermine confidence in the election. You'd probably even go so far as to file a provisional ballot in an attempt to vote twice.
How about just being more stringent/lenient on the signature checks based on zip code? You're fairly creative. I'm sure you could think of several other ways to influence the count that isn't easily visible from that distance if you thought about it for a minute.
Where did I say it was okay for either side?
(Score: 3, Touché) by The Mighty Buzzard on Friday November 20 2020, @01:41AM (12 children)
Go volunteer to work a poll next time. See if you can find a way to tell a fraudulent vote from a perfectly legitimate one during the counting phase or the recount phase.
My rights don't end where your fear begins.
(Score: 2) by JoeMerchant on Friday November 20 2020, @02:07AM (2 children)
The ballots coming out of the underwear of the observers, they smell fishy to me.
Україна досі не є частиною Росії Слава Україні🌻 https://news.stanford.edu/2023/02/17/will-russia-ukraine-war-end
(Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Sunday November 22 2020, @01:29AM (1 child)
Man, I dunno what kind of fish you fish for but you need to pick a new species.
My rights don't end where your fear begins.
(Score: 2) by JoeMerchant on Sunday November 22 2020, @01:58PM
It has more to do with the age and how it was stored than the species.
Україна досі не є частиною Росії Слава Україні🌻 https://news.stanford.edu/2023/02/17/will-russia-ukraine-war-end
(Score: 2) by JoeMerchant on Friday November 20 2020, @02:22AM (8 children)
That's an excellent suggestion for every single idiot alleging fraud in this election. First: shut up until you put up and learn something about the processes of your actual election authorities. Second: if you think you can "white hat hack" the system with massive fraud, I encourage you to register your intent with a lawyer and several judges in multiple jurisdictions before trying to perpetrate your hack and see how far you get before you are caught.
With anything less than a 30% penetration of the applicable volunteer workforce, I predict exposure and arrest before you pass even 0.1% of the state vote total in any federal level elections. It's a lot like bitcoin - if the system is overwhelmed with corruption, yeah, fraud can happen and go undetected for a short time. Unlike bitcoin, the law allows for capture and arrest after the hack is done.
Україна досі не є частиною Росії Слава Україні🌻 https://news.stanford.edu/2023/02/17/will-russia-ukraine-war-end
(Score: 3, Insightful) by The Mighty Buzzard on Sunday November 22 2020, @01:34AM (7 children)
Get your reading glasses. I'm not alleging fraud. It's an absolute certainty there was fraud but I have no idea how much. I'm saying our election system is either crafted the way it is to facilitate rather than deter fraud or the motherfuckers in charge of setting it up should be neutered for extraordinary levels of incompetence and fired. Out of a cannon.
My rights don't end where your fear begins.
(Score: 2) by JoeMerchant on Sunday November 22 2020, @01:48PM (6 children)
I agree there is fraud, I have a pretty good idea that it's in the noise, far less than 0.1% of the vote totals. The 2000 election might have been decided by the fraud noise in Florida, and that's a shame. What's more of a shame is that there is such a difference in outcome between one choice and the other, I'd much prefer a system like March madness where we downselect multiple rounds to an optimal representative, rather than a single sudden death match between opposing sides. This election is nowhere near as close as 2000. If the trumpettes can't unbunch their panties by January 20th and accept that maybe we will get some more positive motion in election trustworthiness. I do think we have made clear positive progress compared to 20 years ago.
It's not facilitating fraud, it is facilitating access. Same kind of issues as computer security. I think they should work toward increased transparency - which is impossible at some point due to secrecy of the ballot, but maybe my vote can be tallied on one side and my secret hash code can be published on a blockchain where I can check to see that my vote was tallied but nobody else can read what my vote was (except the quantum cryptography lab...) IDK, but trust in the system should be increased wherever possible. You got any brilliant suggestions?
Sure, the beatings will continue until morale improves - that always works so well. Also, jockeying for advantage like sabotage of the postal system, shutdown of polling locations, etc. is negative progress, IMO.
Україна досі не є частиною Росії Слава Україні🌻 https://news.stanford.edu/2023/02/17/will-russia-ukraine-war-end
(Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Sunday November 22 2020, @02:51PM (5 children)
The problem is, that is entirely a faith-based opinion. There is, by design, no way at all to tell a fraudulent ballot from a real one once they're all in a pile.
No, it's not about access. There is zero excuse for not demanding proof that someone is who they say they are, entitled to vote, and alive before you allow them a vote. And yet Dem states do their dead level best to remove all of the above, ensuring that there is no possible way to verify that a registration was legitimate after the fact.
My rights don't end where your fear begins.
(Score: 2) by JoeMerchant on Sunday November 22 2020, @04:59PM (4 children)
Taking sides now, the problem with Trump supporters is they have some kind of magical faith that following the unsubstantiated- often clearly false -spew that he Tweets is what they NEED for a better life.
It's time to get your blinders cleaned. Plenty of the actions taken leading up to November 3 2020 were all about restricting access for predominantly DEM voting areas and demographics. These were simple fact based reports of concrete actions undeniably taken, unlike the fairy tale boogeymen of fake voters and ginned up "affidavits" alleging cheating.
Україна досі не є частиною Росії Слава Україні🌻 https://news.stanford.edu/2023/02/17/will-russia-ukraine-war-end
(Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Monday November 23 2020, @12:29PM (3 children)
You really going to point and say how bad the other guy is when I point out an indisputable problem in your own house? That's bullshit pundit nonsense and you know it. And demanding a photo ID is hardly limiting access. Unless, do you think black folks are somehow incapable of scraping up a few bucks once every several years and standing in a line at the DMV like those fundamentally superior but oppressive white folks?
My rights don't end where your fear begins.
(Score: 2) by JoeMerchant on Monday November 23 2020, @07:08PM (2 children)
I don't live in Cali, dude. Florida cleaned house after 2000, we actually have the voting thing pretty well nailed now, IMO.
Having a single location [texastribune.org] for drop boxes in counties with populations in excess of 5 million people, that's limiting access.
Single polling places with long lines open for a single day is limiting access [americanprogress.org].
Demand your photo I.D. to register, verify the fuck out of it - it's not hard with the "gold star" documentation requirements for travel these days. And, then, shut the fuck up about how mail-ins are "a cheat, a steal, a lib-dem-flim-flam and we all know it" without providing any proof of the same.
What's even better than the poor us whining is the lame ass [lawandcrime.com] mockeries of proof [fastcompany.com] that are being submitted, apparently as the best available evidence of fraud in the elections. If this is what you all want to pass for legal proof going forward, let's see how businesses fare when consumers start piling bullshit lawsuits at their doorstep expecting equal treatment in the courts as politicians.
Україна досі не є частиною Росії Слава Україні🌻 https://news.stanford.edu/2023/02/17/will-russia-ukraine-war-end
(Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Tuesday November 24 2020, @02:47PM (1 child)
Drop boxes? There shouldn't be drop boxes to begin with. That's just asking for trouble. If for no other reason than you can drop things other than ballots in them. Like, say, half a gallon of black ink or a lit sparkler.
As for long lines, I guess the DMV limits access too then. Yet everyone who actually wants a driver's license or state ID seems to have no problem actually getting one. If you want more polling places, make more polling places. Our town has several when we could get by just fine with only one; they're never even slightly busy except when a family all comes up to vote at the same time. Your town is your business.
You don't need proof of misdeeds to say that misdeeds are not just possible but dead simple and completely unaccountable. By design. And that's what I've been saying. I don't give a rat's ass what Trump and co have been saying, because I don't give a rat's ass about Trump and co. I do give a rat's ass that my vote and yours don't get nullified by a dead, illegal, imaginary felon though.
My rights don't end where your fear begins.
(Score: 2) by JoeMerchant on Tuesday November 24 2020, @03:19PM
So there should be no mail-in option whatsoever, because you believe the election workers are an excellent judge of false/true identity and you implicitly trust them to make that call? All the drop box does is cut out the postal service, which has shown itself to be less than 100% reliable in the recent election. Better security for the voters, also much easier to detect if somebody is trying to "stuff" 1000 ballots than if they show up in postal boxes all over town.
Have you ever even been to a polling place? Any polling place I have been to is attended, things going into the drop box are closely observed by poll workers, when there are no attendants, access to the drop box is not available.
Fuck yes it does, and having paid that price with three forms of validated I.D. to get the little gold star on the State issued photo I.D. card, that I.D. card should carry some weight.
We have wanted State IDs for our 17 & 19 year olds since they turned 16, and we don't have them yet. Life, one thing after another, COVID most recently, has conspired to take away our RoundTuits such that State IDs just haven't materialized for them yet. That's with unlimited opportunity for scheduling any day of the year. Even in Florida the voting window is only open for a few weeks per election.
That's not in the control of the people voting, that's in control of the minority elected politicians who are desperately clinging to power any way they can, including limiting access to the polls.
What system of law permits suing for theoretical damages, instead of actual damages? The one in your head?
Just like one side can't get more polling places by saying they need more polling places, the other side shouldn't be able to use imaginary problems to restrict real access.
Україна досі не є частиною Росії Слава Україні🌻 https://news.stanford.edu/2023/02/17/will-russia-ukraine-war-end
(Score: 3, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday November 19 2020, @05:48PM (1 child)
What lack of transparency? Almost every state has either paper ballots (whether cast in person or by mail) or a voter-verified paper trail at the polling place.
How much more transparent can you be? Well, I guess the states that *don't* have a paper trail [ballotpedia.org] (all of which went for Trump except New Jersey) could (and should) implement a paper trail.
All this bullshit about "Dominion" software changing votes is ridiculous. Not only are all the states where fraud has been claimed (without actual evidence) all have paper trails and the software is just tabulating the *paper* ballots, which can be (and generally are) audited in pretty much every election gives the lie to this.
What's more, *widespread* voter fraud is exceedingly difficult to do, given the decentralized nature of our election systems. Note that I say systems (plural), as each *county* runs their own elections. That's tens of thousands of people from *all* parties that are on the 3000+ (3,141 to be exact -- one for each county) *different* ballots across the nation looking at the ballots while they are cast and counted -- in the counties where they are cast.
And the counting process is similarly diverse across those 3000+ counties.
Sure. There are always a few instances of voter fraud in every election. But nowhere near enough to actually affect the outcome. The Heritage Foundation's Voter Fraud database [heritage.org] bears this out too.
Over the past *20 years* there have been hundreds of documented cases of voter fraud. Which might seem like a lot, but remember there are usually ~140-160 *million* votes cast in presidential election years and ~80-100 million in non-presidential election years. That's hundreds of cases of fraud vs. more than a *billion* (with a 'b') votes.
And the Heritage Foundation isn't exactly carrying water for the Democratic Party.
So who are you going to believe? Trump and his enablers or your lying eyes?
(Score: 1, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday November 19 2020, @07:52PM
Rule #1
Any flimsy accusation made by a Republican is projection. They are cheating so they accuse their opponents to try and keep the focus off of themselves.
Is slinches a shill? Or just a victim of the propaganda?