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posted by Fnord666 on Sunday March 28 2021, @07:39PM   Printer-friendly
from the First-Post-on-Mars! dept.

Salon has an article on Ingenuity.

In 1903, Orville and Wilbur Wright flew a plane for 12 seconds, 120 feet in the air, on what is now known as the first powered-controlled flight on Earth. Now, 118 years later, the first powered-controlled attempt at a flight on another planet is about to take place.

According to NASA, Ingenuity — the four-pound rotorcraft attached to Perseverance — is on its way to its "airfield" on Mars.

The space agency announced that its target for its first takeoff attempt will happen no earlier than April 8, 2021.

Ingenuity was designed as an experiment to see if it is possible to fly on Mars as we do here on Earth. And the process leading up to the takeoff is a very meticulous one. Consider how long it took humans to stick a powered-controlled flight on Earth; given Mars' thin atmosphere and a twenty-minute delay in communication, it is arguably more challenging on Mars.

"As with everything with the helicopter, this type of deployment has never been done before," Farah Alibay, Mars helicopter integration lead for the Perseverance rover, said in a press statement. "Once we start the deployment there is no turning back."

Every move for the next couple of weeks could make or break Ingenuity's success — starting with precisely positioning the rotorcraft in the middle of its 33-by-33-foot square airfield, which is actually a flat field on the Martian surface with no obstructions. From there, the entire deployment process from Perseverance will take about six Martian days, which are called sols. (The Martian sol is thirty-nine minutes longer than an Earth day.)

Good luck, little chopper!

Previously:
NASA Lays Out Plans for its First Flights on Mars
How NASA Designed a Helicopter that Could Fly Autonomously on Mars
NASA is Sending a Helicopter to Mars, but What For?


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  • (Score: 2, Touché) by khallow on Sunday March 28 2021, @08:32PM (47 children)

    by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Sunday March 28 2021, @08:32PM (#1130424) Journal

    Don't forget that the survival of this first human relies heavily on the 50 years of lessons learned with probes....

    How many more decades of "learning with probes" will we have to endure? At some point, survival of the first human will have to rely heavily on that first mission.

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  • (Score: 2) by PartTimeZombie on Sunday March 28 2021, @09:27PM (32 children)

    by PartTimeZombie (4827) Subscriber Badge on Sunday March 28 2021, @09:27PM (#1130449)

    Lots apparently.

    Every time I moan about the lack of manned missions to Mars people try to tell me how dangerous it is but none of those dangers seem like something that should stop a determined effort.

    I'm not claiming it would be easy, but that doesn't sound like a reason to not do it either.

    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday March 28 2021, @09:50PM (26 children)

      by Anonymous Coward on Sunday March 28 2021, @09:50PM (#1130458)

      How about they clean up their units first before trying to send people to other planets?

      E = hf

      In units that is:

      Joules = Joules * sec * cycles/sec
      J = J * cycles

      Which is false. The units of h must be J * s / cycle, ie plank's constant is the minimum quanta of energy that is constant across all wavelengths.
      https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Planck%E2%80%93Einstein_relation [wikipedia.org]

      Everything goes bad from there leading to more and more bizarre deductions.

      https://www.researchgate.net/publication/325462944_Planck's_Constant_and_the_Nature_of_Light [researchgate.net]

      • (Score: 2) by PartTimeZombie on Monday March 29 2021, @12:58AM (5 children)

        by PartTimeZombie (4827) Subscriber Badge on Monday March 29 2021, @12:58AM (#1130529)

        Err, did you respond in the wrong thread?

        None of that has any bearing on sending people to Mars.

        • (Score: 1, Funny) by Anonymous Coward on Monday March 29 2021, @01:37AM (4 children)

          by Anonymous Coward on Monday March 29 2021, @01:37AM (#1130548)

          Yea it does. If you want safe and cheap interplanetary travel, then it would help if your system of physics didn't fail dimensional analysis.

          All because men don't feel comfortable hearing the words period or cycle. They fudged physics 100 years ago redefined cycles per second as Hz to be 1/sec.

          • (Score: 2) by PartTimeZombie on Monday March 29 2021, @02:33AM (2 children)

            by PartTimeZombie (4827) Subscriber Badge on Monday March 29 2021, @02:33AM (#1130577)

            Oh right. That's why GPS doesn't work.

            • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday March 29 2021, @07:16AM (1 child)

              by Anonymous Coward on Monday March 29 2021, @07:16AM (#1130656)

              Who mentioned GPS?

              How bizarre, it is like you have no idea how to respond so just said some default phrase. Bot?

              • (Score: 2) by PartTimeZombie on Monday March 29 2021, @07:58PM

                by PartTimeZombie (4827) Subscriber Badge on Monday March 29 2021, @07:58PM (#1130893)

                You have no idea how any of that fits together do you?

                The earth is not flat, no matter how hard you try.

          • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday March 29 2021, @01:07PM

            by Anonymous Coward on Monday March 29 2021, @01:07PM (#1130708)

            Talking of periods, 1 period is the inverse of a cycle, which in turn (pun intended) is the tangent. Hence those nasty infinities that NOBODY wants to talk about.

      • (Score: 1) by khallow on Monday March 29 2021, @05:15AM (19 children)

        by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Monday March 29 2021, @05:15AM (#1130621) Journal

        Which is false. The units of h must be J * s / cycle, ie plank's constant is the minimum quanta of energy that is constant across all wavelengths.

        Which is false by proper dimensional analysis. Planck's constant, h is indeed Joules cycles. You're just moving units from f to h. It's irrelevant to the physics where the units lie.

        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday March 29 2021, @07:21AM (14 children)

          by Anonymous Coward on Monday March 29 2021, @07:21AM (#1130660)

          It isn't moving anything. It is using the correct units for frequency of cycles/sec instead of 1/sec. While no numerical predictions are altered, this has many consequences such as reinterpreting the "uncertainty principle" as telling us the minimum allowed energy change per cycle. This is described in the link.

          • (Score: 1) by khallow on Monday March 29 2021, @02:37PM (13 children)

            by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Monday March 29 2021, @02:37PM (#1130760) Journal

            It isn't moving anything. It is using the correct units for frequency of cycles/sec instead of 1/sec.

            In other words, you moved the unit of cycles from h to f. It doesn't change anything. That numerical predictions aren't altered is an indication that nothing has changed.

            In the linked paper above, equation 15 is not based on anything ("Again, using the logic from equation (4), the position-momentum relation is written as"). Look at the difference between equation 11 which is a valid expression of the Heisenberg uncertainty principle and equation 15 which is not: \delta x * \delta p >= h. (11)

            \delta x * \delta p >= h_{\delta} * \delta t. (15)

            Where did that \delta t come from? Why are we to suppose that h_{\delta} is a constant? Another leap of logic is to then assign \delta E = (\delta x * \delta p)/\delta t (in (17)), and claim that there is a minimum energy step as a result.

            The Heisenberg uncertainty principle is a special case of a general idea [wikipedia.org] involving the Fourier transform of noncommuting operators (the momentum p and the energy E are Fourier transforms of the respective position x and time t). This Fourier transform is unique (meaning the transform can be reversed and the inverse Fourier transform also happens to be unique). Energy E already has a Fourier transform t. It can't also have a different second Fourier transform of a constant h. Thus, the inequality of (17) doesn't have a basis in the Fourier transform unlike the other inequalities.

            Of course, this is due to a traditional quantum model that is unlikely to hold at extremely small scales of x and t. It is possible that there is a minimum energy step (a discretization of energy) and it may well be your adjusted h in size (as a cycle), but this has not been shown.

            Any new, better model, discretized or not, will need to have some sort of Fourier-like transform appearing at the macroscopic level. One big caution is that due to relativity, we are unlikely to have a nice grid pattern of parameters like position and momentum, possibly time and energy too. There will probably be strong limits to what we can discretize.

            • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday March 29 2021, @03:41PM (12 children)

              by Anonymous Coward on Monday March 29 2021, @03:41PM (#1130779)

              The SI units of h are J*sec, if you don't even know that I wont bother with the rest.

              • (Score: 1) by khallow on Monday March 29 2021, @04:28PM (11 children)

                by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Monday March 29 2021, @04:28PM (#1130804) Journal
                You aren't saying anything relevant.
                • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday March 29 2021, @05:29PM (10 children)

                  by Anonymous Coward on Monday March 29 2021, @05:29PM (#1130845)

                  How did I move the unit of cycles from where they don't exist?

                  The problem is that those units are missing from *both* h and f.

                  • (Score: 1) by khallow on Tuesday March 30 2021, @03:57AM (9 children)

                    by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Tuesday March 30 2021, @03:57AM (#1131061) Journal

                    The problem is that those units are missing from *both* h and f.

                    Which is fine as long as they are either both missing or both present. Multiply and divide by the same unit cancels.

                    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday March 30 2021, @04:34AM (8 children)

                      by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday March 30 2021, @04:34AM (#1131071)

                      No, it is not fine if the cycle unit is missing. It misleads people to interpret the equations incorrectly.

                      • (Score: 1) by khallow on Tuesday March 30 2021, @08:10AM (7 children)

                        by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Tuesday March 30 2021, @08:10AM (#1131117) Journal

                        No, it is not fine if the cycle unit is missing.

                        What's missing about a "cycle unit" that automatically cancels out? It's never present in the first place!

                        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday March 30 2021, @11:46AM (1 child)

                          by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday March 30 2021, @11:46AM (#1131150)

                          It doesn't "automatically cancel out".

                          We choose the units of the constant so that it does. And those units tell us the meaning of the constant.

                          • (Score: 1) by khallow on Tuesday March 30 2021, @03:23PM

                            by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Tuesday March 30 2021, @03:23PM (#1131224) Journal

                            It doesn't "automatically cancel out".

                            We choose the units of the constant so that it does.

                            It would not be E= hf, otherwise.

                        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday March 30 2021, @01:24PM (4 children)

                          by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday March 30 2021, @01:24PM (#1131182)

                          By dropping cycles from the units of frequency you have changed the meaning of Planck's constant (and probably others as well).

                          All the math works out the same but now everyone is confused about what the numbers mean so everything seems "spooky" and non-intuitive.

                          • (Score: 1) by khallow on Tuesday March 30 2021, @03:26PM

                            by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Tuesday March 30 2021, @03:26PM (#1131226) Journal

                            By dropping cycles from the units of frequency you have changed the meaning of Planck's constant (and probably others as well).

                            All the math works out the same but now everyone is confused about what the numbers mean so everything seems "spooky" and non-intuitive.

                            "All the math works out the same" says it all. This is irrelevant to the model and the math of that model.

                          • (Score: 1) by khallow on Tuesday March 30 2021, @03:36PM (2 children)

                            by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Tuesday March 30 2021, @03:36PM (#1131235) Journal
                            Sorry, trying this again.

                            By dropping cycles from the units of frequency you have changed the meaning of Planck's constant (and probably others as well).

                            No, we haven't!

                            All the math works out the same but now everyone is confused about what the numbers mean so everything seems "spooky" and non-intuitive.

                            "All the math works out the same" says it all. This is irrelevant to the model and the math of that model.

                            I can't believe there's all this noise over a simple two factor equation, much less in a rocket discussion where even the equation is completely irrelevant. Let me guess, this was all about just dropping a link to that paper?

                            • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday March 30 2021, @04:09PM (1 child)

                              by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday March 30 2021, @04:09PM (#1131247)

                              The units of a constant tell you what it represents.

                              • (Score: 1) by khallow on Tuesday March 30 2021, @04:54PM

                                by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Tuesday March 30 2021, @04:54PM (#1131270) Journal

                                The units of a constant tell you what it represents.

                                Again, irrelevant since it doesn't matter if "cycles" is or isn't part of those units.

        • (Score: 2) by PartTimeZombie on Monday March 29 2021, @08:00PM (3 children)

          by PartTimeZombie (4827) Subscriber Badge on Monday March 29 2021, @08:00PM (#1130894)

          Don't bother.

          That A/C is a flat earther, and is attempting to prove the earth is flat and that we don't know how rockets work. (Or something. He's a weirdo)

          • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday March 30 2021, @11:49AM (2 children)

            by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday March 30 2021, @11:49AM (#1131153)

            No one mentioned flat earth or rockets not working. You might be the dumbest person posting here, dumber than deathmonkey who can do nothing but parrot talking points. You parrot standard "debunkings" about unrelated topics.

            • (Score: 1) by khallow on Tuesday March 30 2021, @03:38PM (1 child)

              by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Tuesday March 30 2021, @03:38PM (#1131236) Journal
              Even if that were somehow true, it doesn't mean that PartTimeZombie got this wrong. It's pretty weird to bring up the completely irrelevant photoelectric model in a discussion about rockets. Flat Earthing is a good explanation for the weirdness.
              • (Score: 2) by PartTimeZombie on Tuesday March 30 2021, @09:30PM

                by PartTimeZombie (4827) Subscriber Badge on Tuesday March 30 2021, @09:30PM (#1131372)

                Its why he posts as A/C. I believe politicians call it "plausible deniability".

    • (Score: 2) by EvilSS on Monday March 29 2021, @02:32PM (3 children)

      by EvilSS (1456) Subscriber Badge on Monday March 29 2021, @02:32PM (#1130756)
      We have very few rovers but lots and lots of people. Why don't we stop with the rovers and start sending people instead. Eventually one group will manage to not die. Probably.
      • (Score: 1) by khallow on Monday March 29 2021, @03:20PM (2 children)

        by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Monday March 29 2021, @03:20PM (#1130774) Journal

        Why don't we stop with the rovers and start sending people instead. Eventually one group will manage to not die.

        Odds are good that it'll be the first group too that survives. We have figured out problems like this before. Rovers have their place, when they are used sensibly. But sending one or two rovers roughly every decade is not such use.

        Unmanned vehicle use in the Apollo Program is instructive. They sent 21 probe missions (7 impactors (plus two that failed on liftoff), 5 to the Moon as part of the Apollo program over an eight year period (1961-1968), 5 [wikipedia.org]orbiters [wikipedia.org], and 6 landers [wikipedia.org]) to scout out potential landing sites. Mars has longer waits between launch windows (2 years instead of a month), but the above tempo would still be feasible.

        Any effective attempt to land people will likely have a surge of unmanned missions prior to the first person landing, just because they'll need lots of information that isn't gathered now! And a number of plans for manned missions involve working unmanned infrastructure (like a methane extraction plant or deployed power plants, solar or nuclear) before the first manned mission launches.

        Let's not make the mistake that we're doing anything concrete towards manned exploration of Mars at present. It's hobby level. Hopefully, SLS will die in the next decade without replacement, and we can refocus the world's resources better towards important goals like eventual space colonization.

        • (Score: 2) by EvilSS on Tuesday March 30 2021, @02:18PM (1 child)

          by EvilSS (1456) Subscriber Badge on Tuesday March 30 2021, @02:18PM (#1131203)
          Again though, landers are really expensive, people are a dime a dozen. Hell, you can hardly swing a dead cat and avoid hitting a few. It would be cheaper and faster to just lob humans at the rusty rock than expensive tech. Heck, we could rename the planet Marstralia and start sending prisoners. That would be a net profit!
          • (Score: 1) by khallow on Tuesday March 30 2021, @03:40PM

            by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Tuesday March 30 2021, @03:40PM (#1131238) Journal
            The joke is ruined by noting that the cost of getting people off of Earth's surface alone is pretty expensive. You've already done much of the work of a proper mission.
    • (Score: 2) by Freeman on Monday March 29 2021, @04:59PM

      by Freeman (732) on Monday March 29 2021, @04:59PM (#1130830) Journal

      While I admit I'm one of those people that say, there's not much benefit or possibly any direct benefit to the population of Earth for sending some to Mars. An agency like NASA needs serious popular backing from the people of the country and those in charge and for those in charge to be serious about going to Mars. That happened with the Moon for a lot of reasons, but there is no driving purpose behind a mission to Mars. That is why the most likely candidate to actually make it to Mars is SpaceX. NASA might actually tag along once SpaceX has made it, but only because SpaceX already made it. Same story for the Moon. There's no money in getting to the Moon or Mars. There's plenty of money to had for saying you're going to build a rocket that could take you to the Moon / Mars, though. At a mere $1B per launch or whatever. NASA could have been there, could be leading, but hasn't and isn't. The rest of the rocket / space agencies in the world barely stack up in comparison. Russia's space agency has a serious legacy, but that is all they have, sadly. China doesn't have the legacy, but may get there. In the meantime SpaceX is hitting milestone after milestone and is seriously on track, more than any other agency or space company in the world.

      --
      Forced Microsoft Account for Windows Login → Switch to Linux.
  • (Score: 2) by c0lo on Monday March 29 2021, @11:42AM (13 children)

    by c0lo (156) Subscriber Badge on Monday March 29 2021, @11:42AM (#1130680) Journal

    How many more decades of "learning with probes" will we have to endure? At some point, survival of the first human will have to rely heavily on that first mission.

    Patience, khallow, that higher ground is not yet ready to start pooping onto it.
    Better do something about burning fossils on Earth first - maybe humanity will borrow enough time to get there

    --
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoFiw2jMy-0
    • (Score: 1) by khallow on Monday March 29 2021, @03:28PM (12 children)

      by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Monday March 29 2021, @03:28PM (#1130777) Journal

      Better do something about burning fossils on Earth first - maybe humanity will borrow enough time to get there

      Didn't you just write [soylentnews.org]:

      True. 'xcept the storage prices come down fast lately and then one can move in storing all that's needed and feed-in nothing. Totally achievable with the rooftop area available. We're early on in the process; once it picks up speed it will accelerate the downfall into the death spiral for power utilities - the more money you try to squeeze, the less participants to squeeze will choose to stay with you.

      Sounds like the box is checked off already.

      So why shouldn't we be tackling more interesting problems now?

      • (Score: 2) by c0lo on Monday March 29 2021, @04:30PM (11 children)

        by c0lo (156) Subscriber Badge on Monday March 29 2021, @04:30PM (#1130806) Journal

        Sounds like the box is checked off already.

        On the way there, the story didn't end.

        So why shouldn't we be tackling more interesting problems now?

        True, true. [youtube.com]
        Like, how you get there enough power generation to support even a small human colony of a dozen?

        --
        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoFiw2jMy-0
        • (Score: 1) by khallow on Monday March 29 2021, @04:54PM (10 children)

          by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Monday March 29 2021, @04:54PM (#1130825) Journal

          On the way there, the story didn't end.

          We weren't going to Mars next Tuesday either. Sounds like if you're right, then the fossil fuel problem will be long gone by the time we get to Mars, even if we hurry up Mars activities right now.

          Like, how you get there enough power generation to support even a small human colony of a dozen?

          Like solar power? Sounds like you Aussies already have that figured out.

          • (Score: 2) by c0lo on Monday March 29 2021, @09:46PM (9 children)

            by c0lo (156) Subscriber Badge on Monday March 29 2021, @09:46PM (#1130930) Journal

            Like solar power? Sounds like you Aussies already have that figured out.

            Now compute how many SLS-loads worth of solar panels one needs to get on Mars for a decent power budget and how long it will take given the Boeing speed of producing them (grin)

            --
            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoFiw2jMy-0
            • (Score: 1) by khallow on Tuesday March 30 2021, @04:45AM (8 children)

              by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Tuesday March 30 2021, @04:45AM (#1131075) Journal

              Now compute how many SLS-loads worth of solar panels one needs to get on Mars for a decent power budget and how long it will take given the Boeing speed of producing them (grin)

              How about if someone else, more SpaceX-like makes them instead? Fuck Boeing. Their waste isn't going to get us anywhere.

              • (Score: 2) by c0lo on Tuesday March 30 2021, @05:47AM (7 children)

                by c0lo (156) Subscriber Badge on Tuesday March 30 2021, @05:47AM (#1131089) Journal

                Ok, get on with that back of the napkin computation.

                Given the first thing the... say... 25 colonist will need are shelters and that they're likely need to be protected by a layer of martian soil fast (not enough atmosphere and no magnetic field to protect against the radiation), probs 500kW installed power would be a minimum - soil is a bitch to move and compact. If what they say is true - some water present - drying it up to avoid corrosion may require even more.

                --
                https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoFiw2jMy-0
                • (Score: 1) by khallow on Tuesday March 30 2021, @08:06AM (6 children)

                  by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Tuesday March 30 2021, @08:06AM (#1131114) Journal

                  probs 500kW installed power would be a minimum

                  I think more like 100 kW base load, but let's go with the above. On Earth, one can get roughly 1 kW of solar generation capacity for 100 kg of mass, including mounting infrastructure, (see here [energysage.com] for some numbers). Solar influx is halved for the more distant Mars, so that goes up to 1 KW for 200 kg (or 0.2 metric tons) of mass using said inefficient Earth system. 2000 kW of such capacity (using the rule of thumb that a quarter of that would base load power) would be 2000 kW*0.2 mT/kW=400 metric tons which isn't that much mass for a 25 person staff (I'd budget 100-200 mT per person for food, gear, spacecraft, shielding, and the above power generation).

                  So just buying Earth-side solar power systems off the shelf and putting them on rockets, means you can get a large amount of generating power for surprisingly little mass.

                  • (Score: 2) by c0lo on Tuesday March 30 2021, @08:46AM (5 children)

                    by c0lo (156) Subscriber Badge on Tuesday March 30 2021, @08:46AM (#1131130) Journal

                    Admitting the cargo is dropped in advance and the 25 get there afterwards - extra protection against radiation for more than 1 year journey, food, water, air etc will amount for something - how many SpaceX rockets for the PV alone?

                    --
                    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoFiw2jMy-0
                    • (Score: 1) by khallow on Tuesday March 30 2021, @09:27AM (4 children)

                      by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Tuesday March 30 2021, @09:27AM (#1131138) Journal
                      If they're using Falcon 9s, they probably could get a ratio of 20 tons of cargo and 40 tons of propellant/booster (I'm going with chemical propulsion on a Falcon 9 upper stage). So 60 Falcon 9 launches would handle putting that stuff in Mars orbit. It still needs to get to the ground near the desired landing point on Mars and some payloads would be lost. My take though is that you probably can get it done in 100 launches from Earth. using present day launch technology. At $80 mil per, that's $8 billion in launch costs (ignoring significant economies of scale).
                      • (Score: 2) by c0lo on Tuesday March 30 2021, @11:22AM (3 children)

                        by c0lo (156) Subscriber Badge on Tuesday March 30 2021, @11:22AM (#1131145) Journal

                        Batteries (yet to be invented - few chemistries -100C over the Martian night, cabling, equipment for transporting them in place (I doubt that the precision of Mars drops would be less than 10km radius) and assembly. And that's just the power.

                        Air, water, short term shelter, food, recycling facilities. Protective equipment - you ain't gonna be able to repair the spacelike suits soon. Local comms, transponders, satellite dish for orbit.
                        Binders to make bricks/beams/etc from Mars soil. Mini-earth moving equipment for building permanent shelters.
                        Medicine/bandages, surgical equip, sterilizers, etc. - get to the closest hospital in about a year travel time.
                        Entertainment - they'll be isolated.

                        Mate, we aren't going to see them in our life time. The programme is gonna take longer than two election cycles and the govts will interfere.

                        --
                        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoFiw2jMy-0
                        • (Score: 1) by khallow on Tuesday March 30 2021, @03:31PM (2 children)

                          by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Tuesday March 30 2021, @03:31PM (#1131231) Journal
                          So you're telling me that the problem is hard, it might require a lot of mass from Earth, and someone will probably need to work to get that stuff to work? Who knew?

                          I'll just note that there are people who deal with hard space problems now, we have launch vehicles capable of putting the necessary mass into space now, and it's going to be a 25 person settlement, which means we would have some man-power out there with which to put stuff together when we'll need it put together.
                          • (Score: 2) by c0lo on Tuesday March 30 2021, @09:21PM (1 child)

                            by c0lo (156) Subscriber Badge on Tuesday March 30 2021, @09:21PM (#1131364) Journal

                            I'm telling you that is going to be a "super slow exploration".

                            --
                            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoFiw2jMy-0
                            • (Score: 1) by khallow on Wednesday March 31 2021, @04:25PM

                              by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Wednesday March 31 2021, @04:25PM (#1131668) Journal
                              "Super slow" compared to a few token unmanned missions a decade? No way.