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https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-08-28/china-thorium-molten-salt-nuclear-reactor-energy/100351932
Scientists in China are about to turn on for the first time an experimental reactor that's believed by some to be the Holy Grail of nuclear energy — safer, cheaper and with less potential for weaponisation.
Construction on the thorium-based molten salt reactor was expected to be finished this month with the first tests to begin as early as September, according to a statement from the Gansu provincial government.
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China Set to Begin First Trials of Thorium Molten Salt Nuclear Reactor
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(Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday August 29 2021, @02:03AM (13 children)
..and more economical at mining and destroying the planet.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday August 29 2021, @05:16AM
Q: Where will you find most of Australia's electric vehicles?
A: in open-cut mines.
(Score: 5, Informative) by PinkyGigglebrain on Sunday August 29 2021, @06:17AM (11 children)
you really don't know much about MSRs and Thorium as a fuel do you?
Some MSR [wikipedia.org] basics.
Why Thorium is better as a fuel [wikipedia.org].
And for those who are not very literate here is a video about both of them with lots of pictures and simple words. [youtube.com]
Read and watch those and you'll have some lovely facts to try and dispute instead of showing your ignorance.
A few key facts
The average Neodymium mine already produces about 5000 tons of Thorium a year as a "waste" product already. That is enough to power the ENTIRE world's energy needs for a year.
Molten salt fuel has to be kept contained to fission, if it loses containment it shuts down. THEY CAN NOT MELT DOWN.
A MSR can recirculate the waste products and "burn" them up, reducing not only the amount but cool down time needed for the waste products.
Molten salt reactors are under almost ambient pressure, no risk of a explosive steam release.
Any cracks or leaks in a MSR tend to be self sealing since when the fuel cools it hardens.
"Beware those who would deny you Knowledge, For in their hearts they dream themselves your Master."
(Score: 0, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday August 29 2021, @06:23AM
Hold your horses Pinky! All in good time, there's plenty of oil and gas to be drilled first.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday August 29 2021, @07:13AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jjM9E6d42-M [youtube.com]
(Score: 4, Insightful) by HiThere on Sunday August 29 2021, @01:42PM (7 children)
You are asserting as facts many things that are so far theoretical projections. They may well be right, but it's inappropriate to have certainty in them.
OTOH, I really hope that the molten salt reactors live up to their promise. Especially if they can consume the waste from the current reactors as fuel supplements.
Javascript is what you use to allow unknown third parties to run software you have no idea about on your computer.
(Score: 3, Interesting) by sgleysti on Sunday August 29 2021, @04:40PM
Moltex Energy is working with the government of New Brunswick in Canada to construct a Stable Salt Reactor capable of burning reprocessed CANDU reactor waste as fuel by the early 2030s. https://www.moltexenergy.com/our-first-reactor/ [moltexenergy.com]
The Stable Salt Reactor concept seems excellent from an engineering and economic standpoint. Here's a good talk on it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V8ApH-0YHkA [youtube.com]
(Score: 3, Interesting) by PinkyGigglebrain on Sunday August 29 2021, @07:02PM (1 child)
A valid point, and I will fully concede that MSR/Thorium fuel still has some technical, social, and political hurdles to clear.
Everything in life is based on "theoretical projections", even the belief that the sun will rise tomorrow morning. We assert it as fact because we believe it to be true based on experience and the evidence we have on hand, but it is not 100% certain that it is true so its nothing more than a projection. Just one with a VERY high probability of being right.
In the case of MSRs and Thorium fuel I've read the articles, watched the videos on both sides of the subject, since only a fool ignores the potential dangers of a technology while embracing it. and come to the personal conclusion that MSR/Thorium is a path that is worth advocating and following. The technology is not perfect, it still has it's long term issues like every other energy source Humanity is currently using, and there are still some things that need to be perfected but it is better than the majority of energy technologies we currently use in terms of safety, reliability, scalability, low environmental impact and long term viability. Even solar and wind have some negative environmental impacts that have been mostly ignored until recently.
Its not "certainty", its faith. Faith that something is true based on the evidence available.
Look at some of the things we are certain of; Hawking radiation, proton decay, fusion as a viable commercial power source, renewables that can meet Humanities rapidly growing energy needs indefinitely, etc..
Some of those are based on hard math, others on little more than wishful thinking. All of them have no confirmed observational proof to back them up and yet people still accepts them and believes them to be 100% true.
It all comes down to how much faith you have in the theoretical projections and validity of the facts those projections are based on.
"Beware those who would deny you Knowledge, For in their hearts they dream themselves your Master."
(Score: 3, Interesting) by krishnoid on Sunday August 29 2021, @11:08PM
I recently found myself in an argument when I said that something was an "interesting theory"; the person thought I meant "idea" or "perception" when I meant "scientifically verifiable theory", and had to requalify it a few times as "scientific theory".
Hence, I propose "scientific faith". The math is there, the science is there, the independently observable evidence (modulo the, uh, big interstellar telescope illuminati cartel) is there that the up-to-date theory matches the to-date observations, which is different than the vernacular "faith" [dumbingofage.com].
Example: "Crisis of scientific faith": we propose an update to the model, publish, and move on. You know, like we have every time it happened in scientific history.
(Score: 2, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Monday August 30 2021, @08:02AM (2 children)
There is already some info from experimental verification for this, check the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molten-Salt_Reactor_Experiment [wikipedia.org] from Oak Ridge in the 60s. While not a completely finished plant (missing the actual breeding from Thorium) it was in operation for several years demonstrating the possibility of molten salt systems.
(Score: 2, Disagree) by HiThere on Monday August 30 2021, @01:46PM
Yes, some preliminary tests have been done, but they haven't been done on any current design. So the approach is guaranteed to have certain capabilities, but it's not guaranteed what the costs will be, or whether it can be done at scale, or...well, lots of things. Many designs work fine in the lab, but fail on even pilot projects. In some fields it's well over half of the designs that fail, I don't know about nuclear reactors.
Javascript is what you use to allow unknown third parties to run software you have no idea about on your computer.
(Score: 4, Insightful) by FatPhil on Monday August 30 2021, @05:33PM
Great minds discuss ideas; average minds discuss events; small minds discuss people; the smallest discuss themselves
(Score: 3, Informative) by Immerman on Monday August 30 2021, @12:52PM
You sure about that? I mean, they've been studying the things since the 40s, and built a MSR test reactor in 1965 that ran for 13,000 hours: https://www.ornl.gov/molten-salt-reactor/history [ornl.gov]
And it seems likely that other experimental reactors have been built and tested as well.
Granted, I'm not sure just how many stress-tests and failure modes they really subjected it to, or how many other experimental reactors have built. And there's often some surprises when scaling things up from experimental prototype to commercial scale. But it's not like the things are purely theoretical either.
(Score: 5, Informative) by PinkyGigglebrain on Sunday August 29 2021, @08:03PM
forgot to mention that the MSRs being brought on line in China are not some totally new untested technology.
The USA had two test MSRs working at the Oakridge nuclear test facility back in the 1960's. The safety features mentioned are experimentally proven proven facts, not theoretical projections.
At the end of the week the techs would sometimes shut down the reactor by turning off the cooling systems and let the core over heat, which melted a freeze plu on a drain to the emergency holding tank which allowed the molten salt fuel to spread out into a non critical shape and cool off away from the moderator, making the self sustaining fission events stop. This feature is present in all current MSR designs that I know of.
"Beware those who would deny you Knowledge, For in their hearts they dream themselves your Master."