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Christopher Ingraham writes in the Washington Post that many countries are taking a close look at what's happening in Colorado and Washington state to learn lessons that can be applied to their own situations and so far, the news coming out of Colorado and Washington is overwhelmingly positive. Dire consequences predicted by reform opponents have failed to materialize. If anything, societal and economic indicators are moving in a positive direction post-legalization. Colorado marijuana tax revenues for fiscal year 2014-2015 are on track to surpass projections.
Lisa Sanchez, a program manager at México Unido Contra la Delincuencia, a Mexican non-profit devoted to promoting "security, legality and justice", underscored how legalization efforts in the U.S. are having powerful ripple effects across the globe: events in Colorado and Washington have "created political space for Latin American countries to have a real debate [about drug policy]". She noted that motivations for reform in Latin America are somewhat different than U.S. motivations - one main driver is a need to address the epidemic of violence on those countries that is fuelled directly by prohibitionist drug war policies. Mexico's president has given signs he's open to changes in that country's marijuana laws to help combat cartel violence. Sandeep Chawla, former deputy director of the U.N. Office on Drugs and Crime, notes that one of the main obstacles to meaningful reform is layers of entrenched drug control bureaucracies at the international and national levels - just in the U.S., think of the DEA, ONDCP and NIDA, among others - for whom a relaxation of drug control laws represents an undermining of their reason for existence: "if you create a bureaucracy to solve a particular problem, when the problem is solved that bureaucracy is out of a job".
(Score: 1) by Whoever on Tuesday October 21 2014, @05:09AM
Which of these is true?
1. Alcohol Legalization Makes World a Better Place
2. Marijuana Legalization Makes World a Better Place
There are no serious disputes about 1, since the USA experimented with prohibition. Yet, is there any significant extra risk with Marijuana? Yes, it is dangerous in excess, but so is alcohol.
Obviously, both 1 and 2 are true.
(Score: 5, Informative) by fadrian on Tuesday October 21 2014, @06:13AM
Yes, it is dangerous in excess...
And how do you get an excess when it's smoked? You'll pass out long before you ingest enough to have dire physical effect.
The cannabinoid receptors are neither as central to the body's operation as the many physiological systems and receptors alcohol influences nor as problematic for key metabolic functions (say breathing) as opioids and dissociatives. Nor does it have the many ill-effects of stimulants. In fact, about the only way you can plausibly overdose on cannabis is by eating too many edibles - that's not a problem for most folks (unless you're Maureen Dowd [nytimes.com]). And, even though the number of children being brought into ERs for "cannabinoid poisoning" is increasing, I've never heard of any long-lasting effect coming from accidental ingestion - maybe little Suzy might need an IV for fluids because she's too stoned to drink, but it wears off in a few hours.
In fact, here's what the Oregon Board of pharmacy had to say about the toxicity of Cannabis:
According to that citation that a 20 lb. child (~9 kg) could ingest up to 270 100 mg. infused chocolate bars and still not die (at least not from the cannabis - that amount of chocolate might well do him in, though, Halloween notwithstanding).
So, in summary, I wish we'd put the myth of cannabis overdose behind us. It may make you uncomfortable, but it's not going to kill you, unless you're mentally unstable enough that you really shouldn't be taking any drugs at all.
And, yes, Maureen Dowd, I'm looking at you!
That is all.
(Score: 3, Informative) by c0lo on Tuesday October 21 2014, @07:12AM
Not completely without risk [latimes.com], though. But... how could you know what side effects are there if until recently it was a crime?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoFiw2jMy-0
(Score: 2) by mcgrew on Tuesday October 21 2014, @02:07PM
From the first paragraph of your link: "a panicked Denver mother told a 911 dispatcher her spouse was acting erratically after swallowing marijuana candy and a prescription painkiller for back pain."
Prescription pain killers are very similar in effect to alcohol, completely unlike marijuana. Like alcohol, many people get violent on opioids. They don't on marijuana.
That sensationalist propaganda you linked is like a headline screaming "candy kills child" when the child had a Hershey bar and then drank drano.
Carbon, The only element in the known universe to ever gain sentience
(Score: 1) by black_trout on Tuesday October 21 2014, @04:36PM
Also, the implication that this wouldn't have happened if this man didn't have easy access to legal marijuana (or opioids) seems out of place. Instead, this is a story of an unstable man who could have just as likely been pushed over the edge by something more mundane:
"a panicked Denver mother told a 911 dispatcher her spouse was acting erratically after hearing on the television the McRib was Back."
(Score: 2) by velex on Tuesday October 21 2014, @11:32PM
Picking out the first incident makes it easier to discredit as being a propaganda piece, especially since there's a drug interaction involved. For all we know, the guy might have had a few beers in his system to boot.
There was a second incident apparently, and this one is more concerning since it involved edibles only:
The dispensary clerk told the group of four friends to cut the cookie into six pieces and eat one at a time, one of the friends told police. They complied, but said nothing hit them. Experts say it’s common for edibles to produce a delayed high.
But Levy Thamba, 19, ate an entire cookie.
Thamba started “freaking out,” “getting spiritual and talking about his sins” in French, another friend told police. He wrecked the hotel room and then ran out to the hallway before friends could pull him away from a railing.
No other drugs or alcohol was involved, his friends said.
I would conjecture that what we have here are inexperienced marijuana users who aren't prepared for the effects of a powerful medicine at that dosage. That data isn't included in the article, but according to this source [nhtsa.gov], we can say if you use half a gram to roll a joint and keep the math simple then bogart the whole thing you'd probably get 25 mg at most given a very strong cultivar. Let's assume average at 12.5 mg.
So what appears to have happened in both cases is that somebody decided to do the equivalent of smoking little over 5 joints in a row before the effects of the first joint had even set in, then completely unexpectedly started tripping balls.
I mean, holy shit. So maybe dispensaries should keep foods with that much THC “in the back” and strongly encourage everybody but regulars to try something a bit less potent first. What can you do though? There's nothing that will stop people from being irresponsible asshats, not being able to follow instructions, and not realizing that they're just experiencing a drug when it finally kicks in. Although mostly not having respect for marijuana as a powerful medicine. Maybe one guy needed to go to prison for getting messed up on opioids, having way too much marijuana, and committing murder, and another guy needed to Darwin himself before fewer asshats decide to do the same thing.
Of course to put this into perspective [cdc.gov]:
Drinking too much can harm your health. Excessive alcohol use led to approximately 88,000 deaths and 2.5 million years of potential life lost (YPLL) each year in the United States from 2006 – 2010, shortening the lives of those who died by an average of 30 years.
Alcohol: 88,000 deaths / 5 years / 50 states = 352 deaths / year / state
Marijuana: 2 deaths / 5/6 of a year / 1 state = 2.4 deaths / year / state
Even if we say both of these deaths were directly related to marijuana consumption in general, I'd say marijuana's doing pretty damned good. Two orders of magnitude better good. Is this the best the fear-mongers can come up with? Or are we just insensitive to the deleterious effects of alcohol?
(Note, what I linked isn't clear whether the 88,000 figure does not includes drunk driving or victims of violence perpetrated by people under the influence of alcohol. Might contain the former, but probably not the latter, so my rough calculation may be comparing apples to oranges.)
(Score: 2) by velex on Wednesday October 22 2014, @03:45AM
Oh shoot! My rough estimate is all screwed up. Remove the divide by 5. Multiply the alcohol deaths per state by 5, and now we're looking at three orders of magnitude safer for marijuana.
My apologies!
(Score: 2) by mcgrew on Wednesday October 22 2014, @03:28PM
I would conjecture that what we have here are inexperienced marijuana users who aren't prepared for the effects of a powerful medicine at that dosage.
I saw something similar once when I was in the USAF in Thailand. He wanted to try LSD, which I think was nonexistant there. I saw his erratic behavior, and guys who were with him the night before said it was a burn, he had freaked out on a placebo. He was given a medical discharge, I don't know if he ever got better.
There are a lot of possible explanations for the guy you mentioned. The numbers put it nicely into perspective, especially since some people go crazy for no obvious reason at all.
Carbon, The only element in the known universe to ever gain sentience
(Score: 2) by LoRdTAW on Wednesday October 22 2014, @04:13AM
Anecdote:
A friend who was a heroin addict told me a story when we were discussing his past addiction. He once invited friends over and they wanted to smoke weed. So he shoots up AND smokes weed with them. He went into a bit of detail, which doesn't need to be repeated, but in short: he went berserk. He did not attempt to harm anyone but he started acting really crazy, speaking incoherently, throwing things and jumping around like a lunatic. His friends pretty much ran out of the apartment fearing he might become violent. He doesn't remember the incident but was told by his friends.
So there might be a connection to erratic behaviour when mixing opioids and cannabinoids. Then again, mixing drugs is always risky business. The Gp's link is just FUD.
(Score: 3, Informative) by frojack on Tuesday October 21 2014, @07:18AM
Still, in Colorado, they have had problems with edibles, mostly because there is no standards for dosage or marking.
In Colorado Sales of infused edibles make up about 45 percent of the legal marijuana marketplace, and have accounted for nearly 100% of all hospital admissions related to marijuana use in the state.
Yet, as far as I know there has't been a single auto accident that could definitively be blamed on pot [washingtonpost.com] in the state.
You can't find an alcoholic drink without it being labeled as to alcohol content. There probably needs to be developed some sort of content markings for edibles.
No, you are mistaken. I've always had this sig.
(Score: 2) by Rivenaleem on Tuesday October 21 2014, @10:38AM
It seems your FDA are not in control of either the food or the drugs designated suitable for human consumption.
(Score: 2) by fadrian on Tuesday October 21 2014, @02:50PM
Uhmm. All manufactured edibles (at least here in Oregon) have strengths notated on the package - they are hard to miss. And, in fact, most of the manufacturers are going to even more medicinal-like packaging to make sure that folks can tell the difference (it is a medical market here, though, not a retail one - YMMV, depending on state). I guess there might be folks making homemade stuff that isn't marked and little Suzie could take the wrong tray of cookies to school. Even so, her classmates aren't likely to be physically harmed by ingesting them, unless they fall off a slide during recess or something.
That is all.
(Score: 2) by frojack on Tuesday October 21 2014, @08:34PM
Oregon doesn't have a recreational marijuana law, so they have to pretend its medicine.
No, you are mistaken. I've always had this sig.
(Score: 2) by fadrian on Wednesday October 22 2014, @01:27PM
Well, yes. Until the coming election and when they get the control system set up. Just time. Until then, there is medical.
It's not like half the state can't nip over the river to Washington any time they want anyway (although the supply problems they're having up there makes the medical card here in Oregon a much better deal, where Cannabis is about 30% less expensive).
That is all.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday October 21 2014, @03:27PM
Edibles in Colorado, bought from the store, are clearly marked with THC/CBD content.
(Score: 2) by Reziac on Tuesday October 21 2014, @05:01PM
It sounds to me like she had an idiosyncratic allergic reaction (probably due to a genetic inability to metabolize THC), which a few people will unpredictably experience no matter what drug, food, drink, or other ingestible chemical is the subject. A few people die from peanut butter and seafood allergies too. That doesn't mean we should ban peanut butter and seafood. If you discover you're allergic to pot, have sense enough not to ingest it. But yeah, you'll probably discover that allergy the hard way, like most folks discover allergies (barring broad-spectrum testing).
(My sister is so allergic to pot smoke she can't even be in a room where someone has smoked it; her whole head swells up like a basketball. She has general pollen allergies too, so maybe her reaction to pot smoke is not so surprising.)
And there is no Alkibiades to come back and save us from ourselves.
(Score: 2) by takyon on Tuesday October 21 2014, @10:09PM
Colorado ban on edible pot goes up in smoke [politico.com]
9 cases, and no fatalities. Eating a pot brownie and missing school for a day seems a lot better than dying from drinking bleach.
Another fun scare story:
The Mythical Menace Of Marijuana-Infused Halloween Candy [forbes.com]
Whoever It's been said that vaping or eating edibles is even safer than smoking it, since that would reduce any likely carcinogens.
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(Score: 2) by urza9814 on Wednesday October 22 2014, @02:28PM
To be fair, there's more to "danger" than just the risk of overdose. It's dangerous if you smoke it and then try to drive; it's dangerous if you fall asleep with a lit joint and burn your house down; it's dangerous if you get addicted (yeah, not PHYSICALLY addictive, but can be psychologically) and that prevents you from fulfilling whatever responsibilities.
Still nowhere near as dangerous as alcohol or the effects of our current drug prohibition regime though...
(Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday October 21 2014, @11:00AM
Alcohol in the United States directly kills 88,000 people a year. In Europe that same number is 200,000. Alcohol kills between 3 and 8 times as many people in any given country as gun violence. I would call that a serious dispute to the claim "Alcohol Legalization Makes World a Better Place"
Legalized alcohol (as in for drinking) makes the world a far, far darker place.
(Score: 2) by mcgrew on Tuesday October 21 2014, @02:13PM
Since you apparently know little about the history of the 1920s in the US, you might want to read this chapter [virginia.edu] from a book that was required reading in a history class I took at SIU in the late '70s.
Carbon, The only element in the known universe to ever gain sentience
(Score: 2) by velex on Tuesday October 21 2014, @02:15PM
Yes, but prohibition gets you speakeasies and organized crime. Implement that today and you'd probably see the date rape problem go through the roof. Oh, and the speakeasies won't waste time carding, so there goes any chance you had of keeping the stuff out of the hands of minors. Also, since it's illegal, good luck to alcoholics to get treatment.
A world without alcohol might be a better place, but we live in a world where alcohol is easy to make, has a marked effected on behavior and even overall health, and is fairly addictive. The answer is treatment, not prohibition. The problem is the issue of legalization, not one of alcohol.
Now what I wonder is what effect legalized recreational marijuana has on alcohol consumption. My personal experience with Spice (before it became crap when they were no longer able to use HU-210, which is very similar to THC iirc; this was years before Spice hit the news) leads me to believe that it would fall, especially alcohol-related incidents. I found I was able to stop daily and sometimes excessive use of alcohol.
Allow me to digress in general.
I also exercised more, improved my diet, and lost about 35–40-ish lbs. I don't think I'd ever been that thin and fit before. I wish I would have monitored my blood pressure as well. Well, then the DEA cracked down and that was that. I was good for a few months; I don't believe this was some kind of withdrawal. Then, gradually, everything got affectively worse, and I slid back into my old habits.
Disclaimer: I'm not suggesting HU-210 should be legalized. Mother nature will provide, if only policies will stop being irrational. Not everybody who wants to use marijuana knows where to get it or is comfortable breaking the law and getting arrested due to lack of street smarts to get it.
(Score: 2) by DeathMonkey on Tuesday October 21 2014, @05:54PM
Alcohol in the United States directly kills 88,000 people a year. In Europe that same number is 200,000. Alcohol kills between 3 and 8 times as many people in any given country as gun violence. I would call that a serious dispute to the claim "Alcohol Legalization Makes World a Better Place"
You assume prohibition resulted in the reduction of alcohol consumption. It didn't.
Although consumption of alcohol fell at the beginning of Prohibition, it subsequently increased. Alcohol became moredangerous to consume; crime increased and became "organized"; the court and prison systems were stretched to thebreaking point; and corruption of public officials was rampant. No measurable gains were made in productivity orreduced absenteeism. Prohibition removed a significant source of tax revenue and greatly increased governmentspending. It led many drinkers to switch to opium, marijuana, patent medicines, cocaine, and other dangeroussubstances that they would have been unlikely to encounter in the absence of Prohibition.
Reference [cato.org]
(Score: 2) by takyon on Tuesday October 21 2014, @10:20PM
The little-told story of how the U.S. government poisoned alcohol during Prohibition with deadly consequences. [slate.com]
In addition to the organized crime and bribery associated with Prohibition, add deliberate mass poisoning. Bootleggers poisoned to stretch profits, and the government poisoned to stretch a failed technocratic experiment in moral manipulation to its ultimate conclusion.
Check out the Ken Burns doc [pbs.org] to learn more.
Marijuana criminalization has done even more harm. The drug war will be remembered by historians as one of the greatest policy mistakes of the 20th century.
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(Score: 2) by mcgrew on Tuesday October 21 2014, @01:59PM
Yet, is there any significant extra risk with Marijuana? Yes, it is dangerous in excess
Please define "excess" and list these so-called risks. The only risks I've ever seen or heard about is use by minors, and possible lung problems if smoked.
Note that I and half the people I know have been using marijuana "in excess" for decades and I know of no harm it has caused any of us.
Carbon, The only element in the known universe to ever gain sentience