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Here's an example from the UN story:
[AC:] It is simple. Everyone gets a clean environment (free from lead, etc.) with safe clean drinking water.
The standards for what counts as safe have already been established. Here are water regulations for the US. Similar standards exist for other known toxins. Our issue is that you only get a safe clean environment if you can afford it. And, even then, the multi-million dollar houses in West LA turned out to be sitting on toxic waste that seeped over from the 'other' side of town / the toxic dumping predated turning formerly industrial areas into residential areas.
In other words, we want X so make a right to have X. Doesn't sound like the poster even cares how to do it or whether it'll even work because of course, it'll just work out of the box like all our other rights do. [Edit: cooler prose]
While I discussed that a bunch there, here's a summary of why I think just creating a right to something won't work.
In turgid's journal, we have an even sillier example:
[AC:] We have scarcity because right wingers like you desperately want the scarcity to exist. Your only objective is to exploit the working class as much as possible. To use the OP's analogy, you right wingers are the Ferengi.
Just like the Ferengi, you're not interested in scientific and technological progress that would raise the quality of life, reduce scarcity, and improve environmental conditions. Instead, you defend rent-seeking parasites who actively oppose scientific and technological advancements. A fine example is the fossil fuel industry, which should become obsolete as new technology develops and matures. Instead of allowing scientific progress to proceed, the fossil fuel industry engages in misinformation to protect a dying business model and oppose newer and better technologies.
We need less right wing rent-seeking parasites. We need to move past the lie that people are poor because they haven't worked hard enough, when the wealthiest members of our society tend to either inherit their wealth or build it through the exploitation of others. Left to your own devices, right wing psychopaths like you will cut corners with things like safety in factories, all the while demanding workers put in more labor for less pay. You right wingers are sick individuals, happy to let others languish in scarcity and work in dangerous conditions, all so you can line your pockets with more money.
There's a reason that Starfleet officers are warned about the Ferengi when they're at the Academy.
If only we could do something about the rightwingers, then we'd have post-scarcity right now.
What's missed in that verbiage is that you don't live in a society capable of either delivering a nebulous right to "access" to something nor supporting a post-scarcity economy. The cart is before the horse.
It's not rich people or failwingers holding you back. It's reality. That's why you didn't get your lollipop.
I think it's time to dispute such magic thinking. Our world didn't come easily. Just since civilization started, there have been hundreds of generations toiling - making our world what it is. But now, it's supposed to be simple. Just deliver the lollipops.
Well, just like those hundreds of other generations, you'll have to work for it. Maybe someday we'll never have to work to make our world a better place, but that hasn't happened yet.
(Score: 0, Troll) by khallow on Tuesday October 19 2021, @05:44PM (27 children)
(Score: 1, Touché) by Mockingbird on Tuesday October 19 2021, @07:26PM (5 children)
Put on the damned mask, khallow! Your externalities are not allowed, if they violate the rights of others.
(The irony of a libertarian complaining about "magical thinking", just boggles the mind!)
(Score: 1) by khallow on Tuesday October 19 2021, @07:37PM (4 children)
That's why we shouldn't make that environment thing a right. Deeper rights get compromised when they're equivalent in importance to frivolous rights.
(Score: 1, Funny) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday October 19 2021, @08:10PM (3 children)
That is not ari, THIS is ari, and I am still upset about the backhoe deal, khallow! I have a human right not to be swindled, and you overcharged, just because you could. And you have the gall to talk about reality, from your imaginary budding capitalist Captain of Industry world? Pathetic. Let me explain to you, again, the real meaning of the Labor Theory of Value, with the Lockean Proviso.
aristarchus
(Score: 1) by khallow on Tuesday October 19 2021, @08:30PM (2 children)
Sorry, that violates my human right to not give a shit. Have fun with that backhoe!
(Score: 3, Informative) by aristarchus on Tuesday October 19 2021, @10:35PM (1 child)
The backhoe is sitting, rusting, in your backyard, khallow. Your failure to do maintenance has destroyed some usable human capital! If you only have tools to write them off on your taxes, they are not really tools, are they! I suspect you have very little actual experience of how the "real" world works, trapped as you are in your libertarian fantasies and the artificial, government sponsored, economy of a national park. Parasite, gouger, exploiter of the innocent, ruin of families! Fie upon thee, khallow! And your non-functional backhoe.
THIS is aristarchus. Says so up top.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday October 20 2021, @10:55AM
And, again, you're an ignant moran.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday October 19 2021, @07:26PM (2 children)
By your definition everything is a poison. Heard about a guy who encountered a poison car!! He put it on his head and now he dead.
(Score: 1) by khallow on Tuesday October 19 2021, @07:32PM (1 child)
Exactly - note that the combination of high CO2 and low oxygen would be toxic by anyone's definition since it kills people all the time. Now run that definition hard into the iceberg of absolute rights.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday October 20 2021, @12:23AM
Wow, a self own. Nice work khallow, keep it up!
(Score: 2) by cmdrklarg on Tuesday October 19 2021, @07:40PM (17 children)
Irrelevant. Everything is a poison if you have too much of it. Too much water will kill us fleshy bags of mostly water too.
Besides, with a bag over your head you won't die from what you exhale; you'll die from lack of oxygen.
Answer now is don't give in; aim for a new tomorrow.
(Score: 2) by krishnoid on Tuesday October 19 2021, @08:22PM (16 children)
Not wholly irrelevant [chemicalsafetyfacts.org] -- if you eat something in (say) a quantity smaller than a typical bite of food (plus some multiplier of body weight), and it's not rigid enough to block your airpipe, and it kills or maims you, you can use that as a valid working definition [wikipedia.org] of a poison.
(Score: 2) by cmdrklarg on Wednesday October 20 2021, @02:27PM (15 children)
Also irrelevant to the discussion. khallow made the assertion that exhaled air is poison, and then implied that re-breathing it would kill you. The fact is that if you have a bag over your head you will die of asphyxiation, not poison. I know I'm being pendantic but I loathe inaccuracy.
Answer now is don't give in; aim for a new tomorrow.
(Score: 1) by khallow on Wednesday October 20 2021, @03:30PM (11 children)
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday October 20 2021, @03:52PM (7 children)
And khallow is already taking a run for it down the rabbit hole. Nice work, guys!
(Score: 1) by khallow on Wednesday October 20 2021, @04:21PM (6 children)
(Score: 2) by cmdrklarg on Wednesday October 20 2021, @07:22PM (5 children)
Deliberate obtuseness is a common cause of someone attempting to claim they are right when they are not.
You will not die from too much CO or CO2 (aka poisoning) with a bag over your head (as you implied). You will die from too little oxygen.
Answer now is don't give in; aim for a new tomorrow.
(Score: 0, Troll) by khallow on Thursday October 21 2021, @04:51AM (4 children)
In other words, air with too little oxygen is poisonous to humans. I can carry on this obtuseness a lot further. Keep in mind this is what was meant by DeathMonkey way back when.
(Score: 2) by cmdrklarg on Thursday October 21 2021, @03:33PM (3 children)
Now you're just being a troll. Have a nice day.
Answer now is don't give in; aim for a new tomorrow.
(Score: 1) by khallow on Thursday October 21 2021, @06:01PM (2 children)
Sure, executing undesirable people because they're pollution sources may seem unlikely, but much of our tyranny seemed so until it happened.
(Score: 2) by cmdrklarg on Thursday October 21 2021, @09:02PM (1 child)
So what you're saying is that since people (who have a unalienable right to life) "generate environmental harm" with every breath they take, that businesses should also be allowed to generate environmental harm without restraint? And that regulating business' environmental harm is somehow tyranny and going to lead to mass executions? Spare us your ridiculous slippery slope fallacies.
I take it you'd be ok with some business dumping their waste in your backyard then? Somehow I doubt it. People like you become environmentalists when it's your environment that being fouled.
Answer now is don't give in; aim for a new tomorrow.
(Score: 1) by khallow on Friday October 22 2021, @04:32AM
You're the only one saying that!
No I think that sort of thing is a natural consequence of diluting rights with frivolous demands. The inevitable creep of government power should be considered here. And it is quite remarkable how crazed some environmentalists are. For example, there was a recent proposal [soylentnews.org] to kill in excess of 80% of humanity because overpopulation was bad.
He follows it up with
Now, BsAtHome was just talk, but not everyone is just talk. Creating a "right" to a clean environment and you give these people political cover to kill people.
Depends on whether they adequately compensated me for use of my property and followed the laws of the land. I don't need a right to a clean environment when someone is harming my property via covert dumping. That is already illegal.
(Score: 2) by cmdrklarg on Wednesday October 20 2021, @06:42PM (2 children)
Have a read, O obtuse one:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poisoning [wikipedia.org]
If you're trying to make a point, I suggest you try again, as this one is pretty dull.
Answer now is don't give in; aim for a new tomorrow.
(Score: 1) by khallow on Wednesday October 20 2021, @11:34PM (1 child)
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday October 21 2021, @06:02PM
"Ah yes, the "freedom" to put poison in the air I breathe."
Not seeing a definition of poison there, u ok bucko?
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday October 20 2021, @05:09PM (1 child)
Note how he refuses to correct himself. Truly a self important fool with more pride than wisdom.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday October 20 2021, @10:00PM
It's just that normal people like khallow try to avoid overdoses of posts, before they reach these toxicity/dopiness levels.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday November 28 2021, @09:43AM
Muphry Strikes Again.
If you are going to be pedantic you should at least learn to spell it and not just hang around saying so.