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Here's an example from the UN story:
[AC:] It is simple. Everyone gets a clean environment (free from lead, etc.) with safe clean drinking water.
The standards for what counts as safe have already been established. Here are water regulations for the US. Similar standards exist for other known toxins. Our issue is that you only get a safe clean environment if you can afford it. And, even then, the multi-million dollar houses in West LA turned out to be sitting on toxic waste that seeped over from the 'other' side of town / the toxic dumping predated turning formerly industrial areas into residential areas.
In other words, we want X so make a right to have X. Doesn't sound like the poster even cares how to do it or whether it'll even work because of course, it'll just work out of the box like all our other rights do. [Edit: cooler prose]
While I discussed that a bunch there, here's a summary of why I think just creating a right to something won't work.
In turgid's journal, we have an even sillier example:
[AC:] We have scarcity because right wingers like you desperately want the scarcity to exist. Your only objective is to exploit the working class as much as possible. To use the OP's analogy, you right wingers are the Ferengi.
Just like the Ferengi, you're not interested in scientific and technological progress that would raise the quality of life, reduce scarcity, and improve environmental conditions. Instead, you defend rent-seeking parasites who actively oppose scientific and technological advancements. A fine example is the fossil fuel industry, which should become obsolete as new technology develops and matures. Instead of allowing scientific progress to proceed, the fossil fuel industry engages in misinformation to protect a dying business model and oppose newer and better technologies.
We need less right wing rent-seeking parasites. We need to move past the lie that people are poor because they haven't worked hard enough, when the wealthiest members of our society tend to either inherit their wealth or build it through the exploitation of others. Left to your own devices, right wing psychopaths like you will cut corners with things like safety in factories, all the while demanding workers put in more labor for less pay. You right wingers are sick individuals, happy to let others languish in scarcity and work in dangerous conditions, all so you can line your pockets with more money.
There's a reason that Starfleet officers are warned about the Ferengi when they're at the Academy.
If only we could do something about the rightwingers, then we'd have post-scarcity right now.
What's missed in that verbiage is that you don't live in a society capable of either delivering a nebulous right to "access" to something nor supporting a post-scarcity economy. The cart is before the horse.
It's not rich people or failwingers holding you back. It's reality. That's why you didn't get your lollipop.
I think it's time to dispute such magic thinking. Our world didn't come easily. Just since civilization started, there have been hundreds of generations toiling - making our world what it is. But now, it's supposed to be simple. Just deliver the lollipops.
Well, just like those hundreds of other generations, you'll have to work for it. Maybe someday we'll never have to work to make our world a better place, but that hasn't happened yet.
(Score: 3, Insightful) by DannyB on Tuesday October 19 2021, @05:50PM (15 children)
One thing that seems necessary to have post scarcity is to have vast amounts of energy. And technology to make use of that energy in ways that put people out of work. Probably also raw materials or some fantastic recycling.
We have some of that now. And we're getting better at it.
A problem that arises is that those people put out of work still need to live even though cheaper technology now takes their jobs.
So a transition to post scarcity seems to cause big problems for all of the displaced workers. It seems okay, until it is YOUR job being automated away. As a software developer, I realize that my job, at some level, is to make people's worker easier. And easier, until it gets so easy fewer people can do it. And it takes less work. Once you probably needed one hundred people to do a payroll for ten thousand workers. Not anymore.
Even if, even if, we can solve the energy, tech and raw materials obstacles to achieve post scarcity, how do we ensure people can live? In a post scarcity world, people are able to eat and get new video games without paying for them. This is a radical change from things being sold? What about things that are crafted by hand, and not just for the joy of doing it? What about people who think they should somehow be compensated for their new high fashion dress design, or the movie they just made?
It's like Radio Shack. You've got questions, I have no answers.
The anti vax hysteria didn't stop, it just died down.
(Score: -1, Flamebait) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday October 19 2021, @06:58PM (1 child)
Post-scarcity means consumption without limit, because without limits there is no end to wants. It is at its heart infinite, insatiable greed. Unlimited energy isn't enough to support that. It requires reversing entropy as well or else the universe would overheat and cook us alive.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday October 20 2021, @08:10PM
Post-scarcity... if you live through it.
(Score: 1) by khallow on Tuesday October 19 2021, @08:05PM (4 children)
This is the fly in the ointment. That technology also uses energy in ways that employ more people. We have centuries of evidence indicating that it works really well at providing more jobs than it destroys. Even now, there's a vast number of people getting employed throughout the developing world. When are we going to notice the negative effects of technological job displacement?
Thus, my counterargument is that there's no point to angsting over this until it becomes an actual problem. Instead, we should look at what actually does put people out of work and makes their lives more expensive. Key ones are regulation and labor/business policy. Things like mandatory pension payments, minimum wage, zoning to increase real estate prices, corruption/rent-seeking, and barriers to entry for new business.
(Score: 2) by DannyB on Wednesday October 20 2021, @06:27PM (3 children)
I am all for not having regulation when business can behave itself. Unfortunately it cannot usually do so. Greed is the only driving factor these days.
The anti vax hysteria didn't stop, it just died down.
(Score: 1) by khallow on Wednesday October 20 2021, @10:33PM (2 children)
(Score: 2) by DannyB on Thursday October 21 2021, @02:16PM (1 child)
You seem to think that it is mutually exclusive for business to be successful and also responsible.
The anti vax hysteria didn't stop, it just died down.
(Score: 1) by khallow on Thursday October 21 2021, @05:49PM
(Score: 2) by krishnoid on Tuesday October 19 2021, @08:25PM
Then you start getting into problems of scale of energy use [schlockmercenary.com], for example, nuclear reactor meltdowns in the modern era.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday October 20 2021, @12:30AM (5 children)
Yes you do. You know like everybody does, put away the hate, fear, and pride, and all the other related bullshit that precludes universal respect
(Score: 2) by DannyB on Wednesday October 20 2021, @06:24PM (4 children)
Please elaborate.
The anti vax hysteria didn't stop, it just died down.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday October 20 2021, @06:44PM (2 children)
It is a self contained comment Danny, though not exactly helpful and a little more than obvious. If only all the negative behaviors of humanity were curbed then we wouldn't have negative behaviors screwing things up! /duhurr
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday October 20 2021, @08:18PM
Help! Help! My karma is being harshed by bad vibes.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday October 21 2021, @03:46AM
So that's how real communism will finally be achieved!
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday October 21 2021, @01:19AM
How do you elaborate something so fundamental? You don't recognize them when you feel them? Or do you just deny them altogether?
(Score: 3, Interesting) by turgid on Wednesday October 20 2021, @05:44PM
From the article I linked to in my journal:
Not all types of scarcity are equal. Much of it in the modern world is artificial, a drain on resources and a cause of pain and strife, including war.
I refuse to engage in a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent [wikipedia.org].