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Lately folks are worried about how to fund the roads with electric vehicles. Of course, there are very few EVs on the road… yet. They’re talking about some onerous taxes with privacy implications. Tax mileage, so you would have to take your car to the DMV every year, or worse, attach a device that always lets the state and federal government know where you are. Law enforcement and the NSA love that idea.
But I say do away with road taxes altogether. Before the 20th century, neither the state nor federal governments built roads. Many of the larger cities did, but not states; roads aren’t necessary for horses and wagons. The first drivers of autos bought gasoline in five gallon cans from hardware stores.
By the 1920s states had started paving roads, and in 1919 Oregon instituted the first gasoline tax, one cent per gallon. In 1919, few people had autos and most goods were still transported by water, rail, and horse drawn wagons. It made perfect sense that those who needed roads should pay for them; why should horse owners, whose steeds were expensive enough, have to pay to provide roads for the rich with cars? In Vachel Lindsay’s 1920 book The Golden Book of Springfield about the year 2018, cars and airplanes were still toys for the rich.
But the real 2018 was nothing like Lindsay’s 2018. Today, horses are toys for the rich, and cars, buses, and trucks haul the goods and people. Everyone needs the roads and highways today. What’s more, commerce does almost all damage to roads, why should automobile drivers have to pay for them?
The states and the federal government should just let gas taxes slide, and fix the roads with the same funds used to fund everything else. Just keep the gas tax to nudge people towards electric vehicles. Gasoline and its exhaust stinks, especially with a poorly tuned engine. The sooner gasoline and diesel are gone, the better.
(Score: 1) by fustakrakich on Wednesday December 01 2021, @06:50PM (13 children)
Make it proportional to the vehicle weight. And also make the state provide no fault insurance, just for good measure
La politica e i criminali sono la stessa cosa..
(Score: 1) by fustakrakich on Wednesday December 01 2021, @06:53PM (7 children)
Oops, forgot. You have to take you car in to pass safety inspections anyway. They can read your odometer then, if they want to tax you by the mile
La politica e i criminali sono la stessa cosa..
(Score: 2) by mcgrew on Thursday December 02 2021, @03:29PM (6 children)
No smog or safety inspections here, although they do up in the Chicago area and down in the St. Louis area, but those inspections are unneeded for an EV.
But the whole point is to stop the motor tax! Only auto owners needed roads in 1900, everyone uses roads in 2000.
Carbon, The only element in the known universe to ever gain sentience
(Score: 2, Insightful) by fustakrakich on Thursday December 02 2021, @06:57PM (1 child)
In that case just take the money from the general fund. Let's not pretend they don't have enough to cover all the bases. Otherwise mileage and vehicle weight are perfectly fair metrics, no matter if your motor is a slant six or a General Electric
La politica e i criminali sono la stessa cosa..
(Score: 2) by mcgrew on Saturday December 04 2021, @03:47PM
FINALLY someone actually got the point!
Carbon, The only element in the known universe to ever gain sentience
(Score: 1) by fustakrakich on Thursday December 02 2021, @07:04PM (3 children)
Oops, sorry, but I forgot to add that EVs will still need safety inspections, at least I would hope so if they want to operate on public roads.
La politica e i criminali sono la stessa cosa..
(Score: 2) by mcgrew on Saturday December 04 2021, @03:45PM (1 child)
Illinois has no safety inspections and never has.
Carbon, The only element in the known universe to ever gain sentience
(Score: 1) by fustakrakich on Saturday December 04 2021, @05:40PM
:-) Never too soon to start
La politica e i criminali sono la stessa cosa..
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday December 07 2021, @05:27PM
The corruption inherent in vehicle inspections have prompted some states to just stop inspecting. Yeah, unsafe vehicles go out onto the roads, but not as many as you might think. It seems that few people are willing to ride in unsafe vehicles, and those who might be willing aren't willing to be the liable party when an accident happens.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 01 2021, @08:48PM (2 children)
Let's all just move to Mars. Cars are lighter, the roads aren't crowded, and the place is full of gas. And, apparently, hookers.
(Score: 3, Informative) by mcgrew on Thursday December 02 2021, @03:33PM (1 child)
The hookers won't be there for a couple hundred years, and they're only going for drug rehab.
Carbon, The only element in the known universe to ever gain sentience
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday December 02 2021, @05:39PM
That's no way to encourage immigration.
(Score: 2, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday December 02 2021, @03:04AM (1 child)
> proportional to the vehicle weight
Road damage is modeled by weight on the tire(s) to the 4th or 5th power. Loaded trucks do nearly all the road damage. And OVER-loaded trucks really wreck the roads.
(Score: 2, Informative) by fustakrakich on Thursday December 02 2021, @03:38AM
You tax by gross vehicle weight rating
La politica e i criminali sono la stessa cosa..
(Score: 2) by DannyB on Wednesday December 01 2021, @06:55PM (7 children)
Tax Tires? (but this will be unfair when hover cars are introduced, or people who buy new tires for a swing on a tree branch.)
Tax Miles on the odometer. Integrate that tax process with annual vehicle registration. Make odometers even more tamper proof and vastly increase penalties for tampering with them. Possibly randomly inspect some odometers during registration. Nobody needs to know where you go and who you visit. But it's not unreasonable to know how many miles you drive on the roads in order to pay for them.
Tax certain commercial users based on how much their vehicles damage the road. Taxes on commercial trucking end up getting paid by everyone who uses products that were shipped by commercial trucking. So that actually seems fair. It might even encourage purchase of products built, grown or stolen locally.
Now if only we could figure out what items to tax in order to help pay for the $280 billion annual cost of gun violence. [everytownresearch.org]
Young people won't believe you if you say you used to get Netflix by US Postal Mail.
(Score: 3, Insightful) by istartedi on Wednesday December 01 2021, @07:06PM
The problem with a tire tax is that people would run them longer than they should, which is dangerous. We might even see black-market re-treads which are perhaps even more dangerous. Bald tires are already too common, and making tires more expensive would aggravate that.
If taxing miles is the answer, the odometer tax makes the most sense, doesn't track you, and is built-in to older vehicles already. Taxing miles *and* vehicle weight together makes sense too, and shouldn't introduce too many safety issues since even when a vehicle is light it still has to meet safety standards.
Appended to the end of comments you post. Max: 120 chars.
(Score: 4, Insightful) by DeathMonkey on Wednesday December 01 2021, @07:14PM (2 children)
It's easier to leave laws alone than to change them and we want to subsidize electric cars to fight global warming.
So I say leave the gas taxes as-is.
(Score: 2) by DannyB on Wednesday December 01 2021, @07:27PM (1 child)
I don't have a problem with that, in the short term.
However, eventually, as we all hope, the ratio of ICEs to EVs begins to invert. At that point we need a new way to pay for our road infrastructure.
Young people won't believe you if you say you used to get Netflix by US Postal Mail.
(Score: 1) by fustakrakich on Wednesday December 01 2021, @07:54PM
There is no shortage of fundage. Just redirect a small percentage of the Wall Street bailouts.
La politica e i criminali sono la stessa cosa..
(Score: 2, Disagree) by Runaway1956 on Wednesday December 01 2021, @08:55PM (2 children)
Can't believe you link to Everytown. Mikey Bloomber's mouthpiece is not a reliable source for anything, least of all 2nd amendment issues.
Abortion is the number one killed of children in the United States.
(Score: 0, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 01 2021, @10:26PM (1 child)
Says the dumb fuck that reads brett's fart and thinks NewsMax is MAX NEWZ!
Seriously, you are an embarassment, and after the orange dumbo that is saying something.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday December 02 2021, @08:08PM
Forum software misspelled 1, Inciteful.
(Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Wednesday December 01 2021, @08:51PM (10 children)
So, the idea is, neighborhoods that don't see commercial traffic never experience potholes? Hmmmmm - Okay then. You don't have to pay fuel taxes for cars anymore. Or for electric cars. You all ride tax-free.
BUT, if commercial vehicles are paying for the infrastructure, then it would only be fair that the money is spent exclusively on commercial routes. I think people will learn quickly that cars DO damage the roads. Not sure how school buses are classified. They're big, but they don't weight a whole lot. Bluebird typically fall in between 22,000 and 27,000 pounds - a bit more than I thought. But they aren't the concern of commerce, you'll have to figure out how to patch your own neighborhood roads.
Abortion is the number one killed of children in the United States.
(Score: 1) by fustakrakich on Wednesday December 01 2021, @09:06PM (1 child)
That's why you should tax by weight, not usage. And for people who walk, there has to be a "Nike" tax, sidewalks crumble too.
La politica e i criminali sono la stessa cosa..
(Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Wednesday December 01 2021, @10:12PM
Leave Aunt Ethel at home, and it will cut your weight tax in half! Don't worry about Uncle Ted, he hasn't been able to waddle through the door for 15 years.
Abortion is the number one killed of children in the United States.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday December 02 2021, @12:51AM (2 children)
*yawn*
Learn the difference between "all" and "almost all."
(Score: 0, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday December 02 2021, @02:25AM (1 child)
Don't try and handicap a republican like that.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday December 02 2021, @04:13AM
Right. You do that by the length of their nose and the weight of the jockey.
And the success of their business.
(Score: 2) by mcgrew on Thursday December 02 2021, @03:39PM (1 child)
So, the idea is, neighborhoods that don't see commercial traffic never experience potholes?
Here in Springfield there are 100 year old roads paved with brick that still have no potholes.
You don't have to pay fuel taxes for cars anymore. Or for electric cars. You all ride tax-free.
You pay income tax, sales tax, property tax, why does there need to be a fuel tax?? Fund the roads from the general revenue! EVERYBODY USES THE ROADS.
Carbon, The only element in the known universe to ever gain sentience
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 08 2021, @12:14AM
Some people use the roads harder than others. It all depends on how socialistic society wants to be.
(Score: 1, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday December 07 2021, @05:11PM (2 children)
I usually agree with you, but not this time, you are flat-out wrong. I live on the street I grew up on in the '70s and 80s. It's a cul-de-sac of about 13 houses, only truck traffic is UPS and the like, and a very occasional moving van 18-wheeler. The street was built / paved in the 1950s, and has never been repaved. I can think of 1 pothole repair.
Besides the lack of destructive truck traffic, one major factor in the street's longevity is that things were made much better in the 'good old days'. They're finding ways to do everything cheaper and cheaper... in the short run, but of course in the long run, I'm seeing roads being repaved after maybe 5 years.
Another factor: my street has no underground utilities, so is never dug up (by idiots who never restore the roads properly). We all have private wells and septic (with no problems, but the septic tanks must be pumped ever 3 years).
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday December 07 2021, @05:24PM (1 child)
So, 100 vehicles in and out would be an extremely high traffic day. The all-time record is probably under 200 vehicles in and out.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 08 2021, @12:10AM
Extremely. 50 would still be a lot.
(Score: 2) by hendrikboom on Wednesday December 01 2021, @08:59PM (1 child)
Maybe just use autonomous self-driving off-road vehicles?
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday December 02 2021, @08:39PM
I had a really good response to that post. I typed it in, thought about it for a minute, and put it in my big pile of stuff for my next book. It's a good line, see, and Seth M can go and fill potholes.