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I'm writing this today, but it really takes place last Monday evening. (Today being Wednesday.)
In a nearby town about 45 min away is where some of my wife's family lives. Some of them run a small coffee shop that is closing (now closed) because of landlord of the large commercial building doesn't want a coffee shop there. Probably have other use ideas for the floor space more profitable than the lease money they earn now. Nobody knows for sure.
For the last three Sunday's some of us have gone there because it would soon be gone. On the first two Sunday's my wife and I went. Wore masks. Social distance. Etc.
On the first Sunday. One of the relatives, who is my friend, introduced me to his older brother. (we're all old men, fyi) After talking a bit, we fist-bumped instead of shaking hands as we parted.
On the 2nd Sunday. Nothing eventful. Talked with a few people including my friend whose brother I met the week prior. Didn't see the brother I met the week prior.
On the 3rd Sunday we didn't go because covid cases were on the increase in the local area. Sad because that was the final day the shop would be open. But hey we're now used to spending holidays alone in our house. Very sad. But no covid.
Next day, which brings me to last Monday evening. I get word through my wife that the person (the brother of a family member friend) I had met two weeks and a day ago has died from covid-19.
My first reaction was: WOW That was fast! I just met the guy. He seemed careful enough. (of course, I don't know vax status and don't ask unless people are coming into my home)
Second reaction between my wife and I were that if we had been exposed we would probably have symptoms by now. Of course, no symptoms as of the day I'm writing this. We rarely go out of our house. We even have groceries delivered to our door. Do Target pick up orders that get loaded into the vehicle trunk, etc. Amazon deliveries. Etc. (I do go to a deserted office every day because quiet and well lit.)
Some thoughts.
In the past I had posted that 1 in 500 Americans have died of covid-19. I know it is a joke to some people here.
Recently I googled and recalculated it to be 1 in 412 and posted that here.
As the numbers of dead go up and up, we will arrive at 1 in 400. Eventually 1 in 350. Etc.
The numbers don't lie. They are not fake news. They are statistics. And they represent real people who died of covid-19. The reasons don't matter so much.
Eventually everyone will know of someone within some small number of proximate connections who will (or has already) died from covid-19.
Once again, just to keep beating a dead horse: it is not vaccinated people who are filling up hospitals and taking up all the ICU beds. Wearing a mask is to protect other people more than yourself. Social distancing protects you both.
(Score: 4, Interesting) by DannyB on Wednesday December 22 2021, @10:35PM (18 children)
I think it is as simple as God is going to fix our sin problem.
While we might have forgiveness in this life, every believer I know still struggles with it. I look forward to not wanting anything that is not good. I think that is how it was originally intended to be.
If a minstrel has musical instruments attached to his bicycle, can it be called a minstrel cycle?
(Score: 3, Insightful) by Azuma Hazuki on Thursday December 23 2021, @01:38AM (17 children)
So, why is there a "sin problem?" Could we have been created such that we would not fall victim to a "sin problem?" And if so, why were we not so created?
I am "that girl" your mother warned you about...
(Score: 1, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday December 23 2021, @06:18AM (1 child)
Are you familiar with the Star Trek TOS episode Return of the Archons? The society is controlled by a computer that was programmed millennia ago by someone named Landru. The society is peaceful and tranquil because the computer imposes its will on the people living there. Other than the red hour, there is no violence, no disorder, no hatred, nor any other evils like that. However, the people exist in a state of mindless bliss, devoid of free thought and creativity. The computer refers to the people under its control as the body. It insists that the body is healthy, but that Kirk, Spock, and McCoy are disrupting the peace and tranquility. The computer compares them to an infection that must be eradicated. Kirk argues with the computer, saying that it is evil, that it is killing the body because of the lack of creativity, and that the computer must be destroyed.
Do you want to live in a society where free thought and creativity are absent, reserved only for the one who oversees the society? It's one thing to live a particular way. It's totally different to have that imposed upon you.
(Score: 2) by Azuma Hazuki on Thursday December 23 2021, @04:45PM
Not what I'm asking. I'm asking if free will necessarily entails sin or the possibility thereof. Please refer to my reply to DannyB down below for why "butbut MUH FREE WILL!" isn't an answer to this.
I am "that girl" your mother warned you about...
(Score: 2) by DannyB on Thursday December 23 2021, @02:45PM (14 children)
I'm not the right one to ask. But I think it may have something to do with free will.
Happy holidays!
If a minstrel has musical instruments attached to his bicycle, can it be called a minstrel cycle?
(Score: 3, Insightful) by Azuma Hazuki on Thursday December 23 2021, @04:41PM (13 children)
Oh, but you are definitely the right one to ask, since you're making all these grandiose claims with eternal consequences. You DO understand your own religion, right? You don't just scroll to the end like an EULA and click "I accept?"
Okay, free will, let's go with that. We now have a 2 by 2 matrix or truth table. What is the state of affairs in heaven?
1) There exists free will in heaven, to at least the extent we have it here, but no sin
2) There exists no or reduced free will in heaven, but no sin
3) There exists free will in heaven, to at least the extent we have it here, and also sin
4) There exists no or reduced free will in heaven, and also sin
Be careful how you answer this. Remember, there was one rebellion already...
I am "that girl" your mother warned you about...
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday December 23 2021, @05:52PM (8 children)
The answer is #3. There most certainly is sin in Heaven. Those who sin are cast out of Heaven.
The three realms described in the Bible are Heaven, Earth (the universe in which the Earth resides), and Hell. I believe it was Paul who said that to God, a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years is like a day. Linear time is a property of the Earth and the universe in which it resides. Heaven and Hell don't follow the linear time that Earth does. Paul wasn't making an asinine claim that the Earth (the universe) was 4,000 years old when he wrote that. Paul was saying that God isn't bound by linear time as we are, so what seems like a long time to us is not perceived by God in that manner.
I'll put it another way. Linear time is an emergent property of our universe. A being outside of our universe would not experience the linear time that we experience because linear time is a property of our universe. They might see the totality of our spacetime: our past, present, and future.
I object to the idea that there was a rebellion in Heaven, because that imposes Earth's linear time on Heaven. More accurately, there is sin in Heaven, there is a rebellion in Heaven, and those who sin are cast out of Heaven. There is free will in Heaven. There is sin in Heaven.
(Score: 3, Interesting) by Azuma Hazuki on Friday December 24 2021, @03:54AM (7 children)
Has it occurred to you that this is very much a classic power struggle of the sort seen all across the various ANE pantheons? Of which, note, Yahweh was a part (Ugaritic), and not even the supreme god-figure, at that! A truly all-good, all-powerful, and all-knowing being wouldn't *have* enemies to begin with. I've never understood why so few people seem to cotton on to these simple little logical gaps in the myth...
I am "that girl" your mother warned you about...
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday December 24 2021, @06:28AM (6 children)
As formulated, that seems like a non-sequitur. If I inserted a benevolent, omnipotent, and omniscient being into a universe containing evil, unless the being would instantly eradicate the evil, I think it follows that the being might well have enemies. As posed, what you're saying does not seem logical.
I think what you're getting at is a bit different. In the creation story, the creator is good and pronounces all of creation as good. Even with free will, if the creator and all of creation is good, why would evil spontaneously come into existence? I think that's what you're actually trying to get at.
Quantum tunneling, perhaps? Given an infinite amount of time, anything that could possibly occur will occur.
All joking about quantum mechanics aside, it's a question I've pondered over many times. I don't have a good answer to why evil should spontaneously arise from those conditions.
I think, therefore I am. Why should anything exist at all? Why should something be preferred over nothing? The answer seems unknowable, so I postulate that there is a god. I propose that good and evil may be as they are because god defines them as such. If the god allows for free will instead of making mindless automatons, what are the requirements to truly have free will? Even if evil is possible, if the creator and all of creation is good, if beings are fully unaware of the ability to choose evil, is that truly free will? Does a being need to be aware of both the option of good and the option of evil to truly have free will to choose between good and evil?
I do not know. These are questions for minds greater than mine. When one's imagination cannot provide an answer, one must seek out a greater imagination.
(Score: 2) by Azuma Hazuki on Friday December 24 2021, @05:14PM (4 children)
If you don't truly understand the question, then don't just choose answers. Notably, your idea of suddenly inserting an omnimax being into a pre-existing universe is internally inconsistent.
You do raise another important point, though: given the definition of God, the most perfect universe is the one in which ONLY this God exists. By definition, perfection does not create imperfection. This class of God-figure is already perfect, lacking nothing, needing nothing, wanting nothing. As such, all of creation is not only utterly superfluous, but actually serves to disprove the existence of such a being.
I am "that girl" your mother warned you about...
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday December 24 2021, @06:28PM (3 children)
You say many of these things as if they are self-evident. They are not and require justification, such as the internally inconsistent nature of the situation I described.
How carefully have you read the creation account in Genesis? The first few verses of the first chapter might explain the existence of evil.
Those verses don't say that God created something from nothing. It's quite the opposite, in fact. Genesis says that in the beginning, the Earth was without form or shape, with darkness over the abyss and a mighty wind sweeping over the waters. Again, by Earth, it doesn't mean the planet, but the universe. But it doesn't say that God spontaneously brought it into existence. Genesis implies that the universe already existed and that God was modifying it like a sculptor molding a formless blob of clay. The language of the first few verses, with words like darkness and abyss, are words that could be used to describe a state of evil. When God said let there be light, God said that the light was good and separated it from the darkness. Again, it could be viewed as a distinction between good and evil. Notably, God said the light was good, but did not say that of the darkness.
The creation account in Genesis does not say that God created something from nothing. Instead, it describes transforming something that already existed, or at least part of what already existed. A careful reading of the creation story implies that the evil may have always been there, not spontaneously arising from good or being created by God.
In some respects, that's a bit of an allegory for the nature of humanity. At our core, we have visceral urges, the desire to satisfy our basic needs perhaps by any means necessary, and rage and violent tendencies lurking. It's not to say there is nothing good, because many people do find intrinsic value in doing kind works. But none of that eliminates the rage and the animal instincts that exist within all humans. We learn to suppress those darker tendencies and hide them with a veneer of civility that is frighteningly thin.
We can try to suppress part of our nature, to hide it whether insincerely or genuinely, and to mold ourselves into something that is better than the evil that lurks in all of us. Some of us succeed to a degree, masking the more visceral and evil tendencies within each of us, but they never fully go away. Given the opportunity, they will readily surface and displace the thin veneer of decency. Frankly, some of us don't even bother trying, which is how you get posts like what started this thread. It's a thin line between order and chaos, a line that must be continually reinforced or it will rapidly break down. We lack the ability to change our nature but we can choose not to commit evil today.
I know, I've gone way off-topic. Be well. Have a wonderful holiday.
(Score: 2) by Azuma Hazuki on Saturday December 25 2021, @04:22AM (2 children)
So you know the mythology well enough to know that what most believers think of God isn't actually what his earlier worshipers did, interesting. That puts you lightyears ahead of, well, basically every Jew, Christian, and Muslim on the planet.
Unfortunately, it also destroys the idea that Yahweh is omni-*anything.* The being you're describing is not ontologically prior to the universe; it is therefore, if not a creation or part *of* the universe, an invader from elsewhere. In theological terms, this God-concept of yours is lacking what is called "divine aseity" and so does not quality to be called God.
Sounds a lot more like Shin Megami Tensei than anything in mainstream Christianity, really :) Hope someone on your team knows Dekaja...!
I am "that girl" your mother warned you about...
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday December 25 2021, @03:52PM
Different AC here with nearly 2 cents...
I have a dog - something of a rescue. I don't need him, but life is sure more interesting having him around. He knows that I feed and care for him, and if I am late with the kibble he begs me to provide for him. I do and I don't mind. It is something I choose to do.
No matter how I try, I will never be able to explain Maxwell's equations or the theory of relativity or the rules of baseball to him. He will never understand the things that are clear to me. I do not expect such things from him.
I have a son - something of an accident. I didn't intend to sire him, but life is sure more interesting having had him around. He knows that I am his father and whatever he lacks, he can call on me to help him with. I do and I don't mind. It is something I choose to do.
Without my trying, he seems to have learned nearly all the things that I know, and other things that I have never known. He will likely come to understand things that have never been clear to me. I find this unsurprising.
--
Now somewhere in this word soup there is surely an analogy that might instruct.
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Some humans vainly imagine that the universe is their bailiwick, and that if they are unable to make sense of a thing with their limited perception and understanding then that thing is nonsense. These ones may be mistaken, and rather wander in a trackless wilderness.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday December 26 2021, @12:16AM
That different AC rambling on here...
The other day I was pondering practicing a random act of kindness, but couldn't decide whether I should or shouldn't. I uttered a short prayer, "Lord, send me some confirmation." Around 30 seconds later, this message popped into my head, "Go read the lyrics to Desperados Waiting for a Train." So I did, and, while this is not the green site, the imagery was so apropos, it looked like a confirmation to me. The rest, as they say, is history now.
But the big picture is a mystery to me still, and I have never used the word "bailiwick" in a sentence before, but sometimes I do take dictation. Then from what I can see, there is love permeating the universe, and we should not ignore this.
This is but a glimpse into my world. Then again, I probably need professional help. Opinions vary.
Hope your Christmas was merry!
(Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Friday December 24 2021, @11:59PM
As 'Zumi says, you don't understand the question, so you are unable to form an answer.
Maybe I can help some. God wasn't "inserted" into an existing univers. He created the universe. He created everything in the universe. God created Lucifer. God created evil.
That's it - no more help from me. You take it and run.
Abortion is the number one killed of children in the United States.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday December 26 2021, @07:15PM (3 children)
Anyone who has been to heaven could explain to you that, while there is no free will in heaven, you do get to do all the things you love, and there is no inclination in you to sin any more than someone on earth were inclined to cut out his own eyeballs. There are better ways to say this, but none as terse.
(Score: 1, Troll) by Azuma Hazuki on Monday December 27 2021, @04:36PM (2 children)
...wow. Do you understand what you just did?
I am "that girl" your mother warned you about...
(Score: -1, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Monday December 27 2021, @05:40PM
Not really, although the following are distinct possibilities:
1) Made you say 'underwear'
2) Failed to garner a "funny" moderation
3) Flunked philosophy
4) Described an experience I once had
5) Regurgitated some dogma
6) Pulled the tiger's tail
7) Contributed to SN
8) Wandered completely off-topic
9) Enjoyed myself immensely
10) Hoped you could save me from the error of my fallacy
Unitasking was never my forte. For a more oblique but flowery scriptural treatment, look here [bahai.org]
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/ Well, I've never been to heaven / But I've been to Oklahoma / -Three Dog Night
(Score: -1, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday December 28 2021, @02:43AM
Better sign-off...
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And you may say to yourself, "My God! What have I done?" - Talking Heads, Once in a Lifetime