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[Ed note: I've provided a brief list of alternative sources for streaming free music and podcasts at the end of this story. Please help out your fellow Soylentils by mentioning your favorite Soundcloud alternative in the comments. --martyb]
Joni Mitchell joins Neil Young in ditching Spotify over COVID misinformation:
Joni Mitchell has turned up the volume on demands for music and podcast streamer Spotify to address misinformation on its platform. Joining protests by a group of medical professionals and by rocker Neil Young, the iconic singer-songwriter says she plans to pull her work off Spotify over false claims about COVID-19 vaccines.
"I've decided to remove all my music from Spotify," Mitchell said Friday in a brief post on her website. "Irresponsible people are spreading lies that are costing people their lives. I stand in solidarity with Neil Young and the global scientific and medical communities on this issue."
l...] Young sparked a #DeleteSpotify movement earlier this week when he yanked his catalog off the service and cited a letter by more than 250 doctors, nurses, scientists and educators who criticized Spotify and its most popular podcast, The Joe Rogan Experience, for spreading vaccine misinformation.
In her post, Mitchell, the artist behind songs like Big Yellow Taxi, Help Me and A Case of You, included a link to that same letter. It calls out an episode of Rogan's podcast that featured virologist and vaccine skeptic Dr. Robert Malone, points to a critical post about Malone on fact-checking site PolitiFact, and urges Spotify to establish a policy on misinformation.
Joni Mitchell joins Neil Young in having her music pulled off Spotify:
The famed Canadian singer-songwriter who's been turning out hits we all know — like "The Circle Game" — since the '60s has officially joined Neil Young in calling for her music's removal from the streaming service. Like the "Heart of Gold" writer and singer, Mitchell is fed up with Spotify's willingness to support podcasters like Joe Rogan who perpetuate lies and incomplete truths about COVID-19, among other things.
Rogan's podcast has been kicking around since 2009, but it notably became a Spotify exclusive in Dec. 2020. That's why the recent pushback against Spotify has so squarely centered the controversial actor-turned-influential blowhard.
"I've decided to remove all my music from Spotify," Mitchell wrote on Jan. 28 under the headline "I Stand With Neil Young!" in a brief post on her website. "Irresponsible people are spreading lies that are costing people their lives. I stand in solidarity with Neil Young and the global scientific and medical communities on this issue."
While she doesn't single out Rogan by name, the post does conclude with a link out to "An Open Letter to Spotify." The document, which is signed by "a coalition of scientists, medical professionals, professors, and science communicators" that includes more than 250 people, repeatedly points to The Joe Rogan Experience podcast as a source of COVID misinformation throughout the pandemic.
Joni Mitchell joins Neil Young; pulls music in Spotify protest:
Joni Mitchell said she is seeking to remove all of her music from Spotify in solidarity with Neil Young, who ignited a protest against the streaming service for airing a podcast that featured a figure who has spread misinformation about the coronavirus.
Mitchell, who like Young is a California-based songwriter who had much of her success in the 1970s, is the first prominent musician to join Young's effort.
"Irresponsible people are spreading lies that are costing people their lives," Mitchell said on Friday in a message posted on her website. "I stand in solidarity with Neil Young and the global scientific and medical communities on this issue."
Following Young's action this week, Spotify said it had policies in place to remove misleading content from its platform and has removed more than 20,000 podcast episodes related to COVID-19 since the start of the pandemic.
[...] But the service has said nothing about comedian Joe Rogan, whose podcast The Joe Rogan Experience is the centerpiece of the controversy.
Spotify support buckles under complaints from angry Neil Young fans:
Neil Young was mad. Now his fans are, too, and they're telling Spotify about it.
Earlier this week, Young had asked the music-streaming service to remove his music from its library in response to COVID misinformation aired on Joe Rogan's podcast, which is available only on Spotify. "I want you to let Spotify know immediately TODAY that I want all my music off their platform," Young wrote on his website. "They can have Rogan or Young. Not both."
[...] For Young and his fans, the hit was palpable, and his fans are apparently taking their frustrations out on Spotify. The hashtag #SpotifyDeleted trended on Twitter yesterday, and fans seem to have inundated customer support with so many messages that Spotify has had to take it offline at times.
"We're currently getting a lot of contacts so may be slow to respond," a large red banner has read on the support page. Options to message the company, which have previously included live chat with a customer support agent or a chat bot, are now limited to an email address link.
Spotify stock tanks. Spotify shuts down their customer service lines. Thousands of listeners complain and cancel subscriptions over Spotify's decision to support Joe Rogan and the misinformation he broadcasts, over Neil Young's music. pic.twitter.com/pjvMm7pYVQ
— Mike Sington (@MikeSington) January 28, 2022
Are you looking for an alternative Music Streaming Services to replace Spotify? A quick search brought me to alternative.to. They have ~100 alternatives, the few first of which were:
(Score: 1) by khallow on Sunday February 06 2022, @02:30AM (55 children)
All those scary groups (whom might not even be neo-nazi in the first place) got together in 2019 and barely pulled 2% of the vote.
As to the allegations of violence, keep in mind that there was a seven year war going on. I see nothing in these stories that indicates that the Ukraine is unusually violent for a war zone or that neo-nazis are more responsible for that violence than Russian-backed forces are.
Well, Russian disinformation is the elephant in this room. What's more likely, that the CIA or some other Western organization has managed to conceal most traces of neo-nazi presence in the Ukraine or Russian intelligence doing what Russian intelligence does?
Finally, suppose it were as you said, and there were Ukraine neo-nazis under every rock in the land (and ignoring corresponding Russian fascists in Putin's government). So what? That still doesn't give Russia a right to screw around with the Ukraine. Even neo-nazis and fascists have rights, right?
(Score: 2) by Pav on Saturday February 12 2022, @02:30AM (54 children)
I'm not going to try to convince you. Perhaps you really do feel like you're being told the truth for once, or at least identify with the side you honestly imagine represents your interests. You do you.
(Score: 1) by khallow on Saturday February 12 2022, @03:33AM (53 children)
You're just going to smear some FUD and move on when you're called on it, right?
That's mighty big of you. What I feel like is that I'm not going to find truth from you. As an AC replier noted [soylentnews.org] earlier, this seems more like a salty Russian problem. You can fix that merely by ignoring the lies.
(Score: 2) by Pav on Sunday February 13 2022, @02:15AM (52 children)
FUD?! Which reality are YOU living in? A large majority of your fellow citizens already accept that US (and unfortunately western media at large) largely amounts to state media (even trusting boomers). All I know is why my partners brother left Ukraine because a lot of murders of foreigners, and because neo-nazi types were infiltrating the police, and a lot of foreigners interacting with police were ending up dead too, and this is BEFORE the neonazi enabled overthrow of the preceeding government - it's an interesting data point for me personally, and I accept this means nothing to you. It's not like eg. the BBC absolutely NEVER reported on Ukrainian neonazis and their connection with the revolutionary government [youtube.com], but it's almost impossible to find now, even on their own site. Who knows... I might even be helping to make it COMPLETELY impossible to find. ;)
(Score: 1) by khallow on Sunday February 13 2022, @03:28PM (51 children)
Which is irrelevant to this discussion.
Because it's say so. I wouldn't be surprised, for example, to find that story is completely untrue. And you have a peculiar inability to back that with any sort of evidence.
The information is near impossible to find, thus it must be true? Another warning sign is your use of loaded terms like neonazi and revolutionary.
But what I find ultimately dishonest about this whole thing is the idea that this somehow justifies Russia's aggressive and harmful actions. So what if there really were genuine neo-nazis complete with swastikas and such parading through downtown Kiev? It's not Russia's business until they start messing with Russia directly. That hasn't happened.
This is the real problem with your narrative. Sorry, your brother-in-law, real or imaginary, had to leave the Ukraine. That doesn't give Russia a blank check to misbehave. I think this massive ad hominem is really just a sleazy propaganda move. Portray the Ukraine as a bunch of neo-nazi, fascist thugs, canceling them in the eyes of anyone who believes the propaganda.
Frankly, I find your whole argument here absurdly hypocritical. My take is first that if we're worried about fascism to the point of ignoring international treaty and law, Russia is the worst threat (for examples of why I think Russia is sliding fascist, the corruption around Putin that subordinates business to government, the nationalism thing, and increasing tyranny). Second, you have yet to provide any sort of serious evidence for your claims. Meanwhile when I dug for evidence, I find things like those scary neo-nazis only getting 2% of the vote when they teamed up and provided a unified front.
And finally, there's the strong stench of Russian propaganda in all this with uncritical acceptance on your part of some seriously stupid claims. In particular, I don't see the point of making your complaint about the Western media (as an alleged "state media") when you obviously aren't providing a serious argument otherwise. It's not Western propaganda that makes neo-nazis so hard to find. The Western media didn't make your argument dumb - that was your doing.
(Score: 2) by Pav on Monday February 14 2022, @01:27AM (46 children)
You're right... Ukrainians are largely good people in shitty circumstances, but it's also true that a mere 4% (your number) nutcases who happen to believe that violence against those they consider foreigners (even citizens of their own country) is a huge problem. Poroshenko is two elections in the past, but every vote against his party seems to get someone willing to implement his same agenda... like the two headed money party in the US. Poroshenko even speaks to western media on behalf of Ukraine even now for some reason. Even if we accept your premise and write off those ethnicities as acceptable collateral damage to weaken a dangerous evil do you think life will become better for YOU if both Russia and China become impotent seas of poverty? What happened to most Americans standard of living after the USSR became a superpower after WWII vs what happened after the USSR disintegrated?
(Score: 1) by khallow on Monday February 14 2022, @03:38PM (45 children)
No, 2% (not 4%!) of people who voted merely voted for a unified group of parties that you might consider neo-nazi at least in part. That includes protest votes and people who don't get voting. Actual neo-nazi are going to be some fraction of that group. Maybe a big fraction, but maybe not.
Get rid of Putin for starters, if you want a Russia that isn't a sea of poverty. It's a necessary, but not sufficient condition.
Went up both times. Turns out that the USSR and its dissolution didn't matter that much to the US economy. Not getting annihilated in a nuclear war was really the positive outcome of USSR disintegration.
(Score: 2) by Pav on Monday February 14 2022, @11:06PM (5 children)
You are an idiot. The Brits got rid of Churchill at the soonest possible opportunity after WWII. Russia would do the same to Putin without outside pressure. He's actually STILL popular inside Russia (according to my imaginary partners brother, but I've heard it elsewhere also) for a reason. I'm sure the arms industry knows this, and they'll continue draining your tax dollars and keeping US real wages stagnant for 50 MORE years... but you'll be dead long before if your best-to-worst healthcare system has anything to do with it.
(Score: 1) by khallow on Tuesday February 15 2022, @12:11PM (4 children)
They haven't done so yet, indicating there's something wrong with your narrative.
So what? Dictators usually are.
US health care yes. Military industrial complex is much smaller.
(Score: 2) by Pav on Tuesday February 15 2022, @01:18PM (3 children)
Putins approval was boosted [statista.com] in 2014 after being at historic lows by his handling of the Ukraine colour revolution. Covid completely reversed that and sat his popularity back to worse than it has ever been. As for the recent offensive against Donbas, Putins response, and Washingtons saber rattling... there haven't been any recent enough polls, but its almost a sure thing Putin will be out of danger again. Well done.
(Score: 1) by khallow on Tuesday February 15 2022, @01:47PM (2 children)
I find it interesting how pathological your arguments have been here. The blaming the victim fallacy is just the latest in a long string of fallacies and just terrible, terrible reasoning.
(Score: 2) by Pav on Tuesday February 15 2022, @02:22PM (1 child)
Your mind is like a steel trap... seeing so clearly how the victim is being blamed ie. the Ukrainians telling the US to stop causing trouble. Poor brilliant all seeing khallow. :)
(Score: 1) by khallow on Tuesday February 15 2022, @04:02PM
(Score: 2) by Pav on Monday February 14 2022, @11:42PM (36 children)
"Evidence". There's nothing I could give you unless it was blessed by one of the holy CIA priests who Never Lie To Citizens (praised be their names). The US media doesn't have warzone foreign correspondents anymore who could eg. independently investigate individual atrocities from that list submitted to the UN, and give you that evidence you crave (or not). I wonder why that is.
(Score: 1) by khallow on Tuesday February 15 2022, @12:17PM (35 children)
Because your complete inability to come up with said evidence is due to CIA cooties, right?
No, I see your inability to come up with evidence as a sign you are very wrong.
Confirmation bias.
(Score: 2) by Pav on Tuesday February 15 2022, @02:18PM (34 children)
No evidence? Well... none acceptable to the schitzophrenic. You admitted yourself that there were deaths during the neonazi led colour revolution and resulting civil war, but somehow no deaths had anything to do with the neonazis. And I suppose it's just a lark that Ukraine and the US are the only two countries to refuse to condemn neonazism since 2014 at the UN.
(Score: 1) by khallow on Tuesday February 15 2022, @04:30PM (33 children)
In large part because the revolution wasn't neo-nazi led. Again, I repeatedly [soylentnews.org] pointed [soylentnews.org] how just how few neo-nazis you have found in this discussion, real or imagined, and how small a mark they've made on Ukrainian politics, yet you continue with these painfully stupid accusations. Get a better class of propaganda.
(Score: 2) by Pav on Tuesday February 15 2022, @10:47PM (32 children)
Suuuure [youtube.com]... from indie news people who call themselves "useful idiots" because at this point that's the highest praise coming from chumps like you.
(Score: 1) by khallow on Tuesday February 15 2022, @11:50PM (31 children)
I like it when people brag of their stupidity. It saves me a lot of time. This video indeed was a waste of my time. I won't be watching these clowns in the future!
Moving on, we have the same remarkable lack of relevance - whining about mildly duped news organizations instead of real problems in Ukraine. The Ukraine isn't facing a possible invasion from Russia because of the Azov battallion or other minor neo-nazi groups.
(Score: 2) by Pav on Wednesday February 16 2022, @02:42AM (1 child)
...and Syria didn't become a spiraling shitshow because islamofascists hijacked peaceful protests. Oh wait... but you're (willfully?) weak on cause and effect. The "colour revolution" formula isn't new or some esoteric secret ie. prepared US supported violent extremists attempt a coup under cover of legitimate peaceful protests. The formula was used AGAIN a couple of months ago in Kazakhstan. Venezuela not long ago, and Nicaragua in 2018. They only succeeded in being an excuse for money laundering and draining your bank account, but perhaps that's the main point anyway. If it makes you feel better they stole Venezuelan nationally owned companies and gold reserves, and Afghanistans national bank float (including the bank balances of everyday Afghans)... so you must feel comparatively grateful.
(Score: 1) by khallow on Wednesday February 16 2022, @03:54AM
Indeed. It became a spiraling shitshow because of the brutal and incompetent Syrian government (incidentally supported by Russia). Peaceful protests weren't going to cut it.
At this point, I'll remind you that you have yet to come up with evidence for the claim. How many posts have you made where you've said nothing relevant?
In other words, no evidence that there is such a thing. All these places are unstable and likely to see the occasional revolution and such.
Who is "they"? Where's the evidence?
(Score: 2) by Pav on Wednesday February 16 2022, @03:26AM (28 children)
Donbas isn't THAT big a place even compared to Crimea. Things Happened(tm)... enough to make people VERY motivated to arm themselves and cooperate in their own self defence against fellow citizens. I guess it's within the universes endless possibilities that eg. Putin himself could have joined the US funding the anti-Russian neonazis on his border because he wants a war too. Or perhaps Putin had ethnic Russians killed/raped/kidnapped by special forces infiltrators. Or perhaps Putin wove propaganda so subtle and clever that people on the ground (who distrust media due to their USSR past) believed Putin rather than their own lying eyes. Wow... this Putin guy sounds like a 3d chess playing supervillain. Are you sure you aren't a Russiagating Democrat?
(Score: 1) by khallow on Wednesday February 16 2022, @04:31AM (27 children)
So why the need for so many Russian soldiers [reuters.com] in Donbas if the rebellion is "VERY motivated"? Answer: because that rebellion almost lost in August 2014. I'll note that the rebellion was collapsing [wikipedia.org] until that month (territory held shrank and Ukrainian troops were advancing on multiple fronts). Well, it's been seven years since, that's the cost of Russian involvement. My bet is that this rebellion requires ongoing substantial support from Russia in order to survive.
That's just a red herring though I wouldn't put any of those fanciful crimes past Putin morally. You have yet to state any evidence for the assertions you've made. Anti-Russian neo-nazis on Russia's border is not Putin's business unless they're invading Russia.
I find it remarkable how once again you've made all kinds of silly arguments rather than just presenting a rational argument. Of course, if you could do that, you probably would have shut up long ago rather than flail this dead horse over and over again.
(Score: 2) by Pav on Wednesday February 16 2022, @07:02AM (26 children)
Crimea was essential for Russia - it's Russias only warm water port (despite it being trapped behind a naval choke point controlled by a traditional regional competitor). Donbas can't give Putin anything except headaches. My grandfather went to work there from Western Ukraine right before WWII - after 150 years the worthwhile coal reserves are mined out, and the whole place is a poor (even for Ukraine) resource sink. I can see why certain warhawks might see it in the USs interest to entangle Putin there though. Or is Putin a moron as well as a 3d chess player in schizophrenia-land? Putin can't invade, but he can't let them get smashed either... because he has his own neonazi/ultranationalist militias waiting in the wings for Putin to fail on an issue exactly like this... and where the likes of neonazi "prisoner of conscience" Alexei Navalny come in. So he's stuck in a quagmire with a few hundred soldiers and military advisors on the ground, and winning OR losing is an even worse problem. And international neonazis (including US based ones) have been going to Ukraine for training... so perhaps the wunderkinds in Washington are looking for another War on Terror too... VERY profitable. So sad for you though. Even more sad for you if those wunderkinds become nuts enough to plan a home grown colour revolution (unlike the 6th of Jan joke the media tried to inflate into something). Surely not though(?)
(Score: 1) by khallow on Wednesday February 16 2022, @02:22PM (25 children)
Sounds like you need to redial into the mothership. You're fucked up and off message. Since I think your ability to reason is over for the time being, I'll just note Putin just seems to create these neo-nazi problems in everything he touches: foes, neighbors, internal dissension. He's the common factor. Russia would probably be much better off, neo-nazi-wise, if Putin were retired, say golfing in some convenient foreign land and leadership passed on to people who don't create neo-nazis everywhere they go.
(Score: 1) by khallow on Wednesday February 16 2022, @02:24PM
(Score: 2) by Pav on Thursday February 17 2022, @09:36AM (23 children)
Yes... you're right for once! Well funded and supplied neonazis too! For example, in the case of the Azov Battalion specific exceptions were made in US legislation to allow funding and arming them, wellllll... until 2018 [thenation.com] anyway. In 2018 there was the embarrassment of a resolution for all nations to reject support for neonazis (which embarrassingly only the US and Ukraine refused to sign). Luckily it just so happened that the Azov Battalion connection with Red Sector, and everything was hunky dory again. Red Sector would NEVER EVER pass funds onto Azov Battalion. Nor would Israel [haaretz.com], let alone Israel arming them directly. Well, one would have thought that until some Azov Battalion idiots posted photos of Israeli supplied weaponry. The US media continues with the Azov Battalion tongue baths though (as shown earlier). Strange though.... They must be going rogue seeing as the media otherwise seems to work in such close collaboration with Washingtons wishes on matters of war (though not peace) these days. Tut tut tut.
(Score: 2, Insightful) by khallow on Thursday February 17 2022, @01:45PM (22 children)
My take is that there is no outcome of this that will be advantageous to Russia no matter what they do. That's why NATO is so popular. Not the money, not the ideology. Nobody wants to be pulled down with that drowning man.
(Score: 2) by Pav on Friday February 18 2022, @01:38AM (21 children)
This is why I LOVE prizing open your conditioning on this stuff. It's like you can't think outside of serving one power centre or the other.
(Score: 2, Insightful) by khallow on Friday February 18 2022, @03:12AM (20 children)
By derping for dozens of posts on neo-nazis?
I can analyze the situation rationally. And well, there's that 150k Russian soldiers that you have so much trouble paying attention to. Russia won't be a stable ally. They're a problem and well, NATO is a solution to that, contrary to the feelz in here.
Further, I find it interesting how so many Russian apologists can talk a great game about all that Western propaganda, but can't defend the present situation even a little. It's all shallow whataboutisms, and ad hominems about neo-nazis.
(Score: 2) by Pav on Friday February 18 2022, @07:08AM (19 children)
That's why Zelensky is saying the US media are worse than the Russians. You should contemplate that - it's a very carefully crafted message for multiple audiences.
(Score: 1) by khallow on Friday February 18 2022, @11:56AM (18 children)
Sorry, that's way out of context. Just link to him. I'll be able to see what the context is and whether that's relevant to our discussion. But I have this nagging suspicion that it'll be just as irrelevant as so much of your links so far have been.
You claim so. But all I'm hearing is not so carefully crafted messages echoed by you. Prize open your own conditioning before whining about someone else's alleged conditioning.
(Score: 2) by Pav on Saturday February 19 2022, @11:07AM (17 children)
Surely you noticed the sulky tone in US media about how Zelensky is not a professional politician and isn't even a good comedian after he joked about US media disinformation? At first they tried heroically to misinterpret his comments and keep the drums of war beating, but they obviously weren't happy and there's a lot of passive aggressive descriptions of him now. I thought it was Zelensky who clarified his comments recently, but it seems he left it to the leader of his party [twitter.com]. Zero humour, zero room for misinterpretation, and a clear message to every party involved. And it seems there was zero mention of this in the US press, at least from what I can find. Surprise surprise.
(Score: 1) by khallow on Saturday February 19 2022, @11:32AM (16 children)
Nope. I don't pay much attention to that garbage. Maybe you should as well? I get that most media, Western or otherwise, will publish the most hysterical, pruient things they can find - because that's what gets the eyeballs. That's even in the absence of any attempts at propaganda. That's why I look for facts that are likely to be independent of the media source. Your arglebargle about neo-nazis and the perfidy of Western media doesn't fall in that category.
Sorry a vague comment about Western media costing Ukraine economic losses and muttering about "elements of a hybrid war" doesn't say much. And really, the comment just illustrates that the people who make business decisions pay more attention to said "Western media" (or rather the circumstances that Western media happens to be reporting on) than to "top Russian state propagandists". Which is healthier, right?
There are several things missing from that tweet. First, it ignores that the decisions which are allegedly costing the Ukraine a lot of money may indeed be correct. That is, what's the point of putting capital into a country that could be invaded by Russia at any time - especially if it is then invaded by Russia? I don't see Russia guaranteeing that it'll protect foreign business investment in a Ukrainian invasion. Do you?
Second, whose hybrid war? The "clear message" never got around to that.
Finally, this just is a standard "don't panic" message which doesn't say much except to acknowledge that the Ukraine is getting clobbered economically right now. Officially, they'll never say anything different no matter how bad things get.
(Score: 2) by Pav on Sunday February 20 2022, @10:41AM (15 children)
You're talking as if it's purely the medias fault. It's coming from deep state sources off the record, and the US administration on the record (presumably parroting those same deep state sources). They're prodding lizard brains with the date of invasion (though those Russians keep missing their appointments). You're even told how many days the bombing campaign will last, how bloody it will be etc... At this point it's certainly not a believable prediction. So what IS the point? If it's a weapons sales pitch the Poles were already going to double their spending, and they seem to be the only other party excited about the prospect of war (probably because of the whole "whoever owns central europe owns the world island" thing, and historically they did own a significant piece of Ukraine). More likely it's just an excuse to defraud YOU some more. You're still excited for some reason though, like that guy who waited for the Indonesian Tsunami to reach him thinking he was gonna bodysurf it. Don't get your hopes up... your life is most probably just going to get more miserable.
(Score: 1) by khallow on Sunday February 20 2022, @03:35PM (14 children)
Who claimed it was a prediction? What was actually said?
Why don't you try harder to answer that?
(Score: 2) by Pav on Monday February 21 2022, @12:04AM (13 children)
I let your peeps at Zero Hedge [zerohedge.com] tell you. Perhaps you won't immediately dismiss any and all evidence from someone you judge to be more "on your team" (well, unless you consider the CIA your team).
(Score: 1) by khallow on Monday February 21 2022, @04:48AM (12 children)
(Score: 2) by Pav on Monday February 21 2022, @09:53PM (9 children)
They're saying largely what I'm saying but of course you can't accept my reasoning or evidence. They're ideologically aligned with you which is what you seem to care about.
(Score: 1) by khallow on Monday February 21 2022, @10:35PM (8 children)
You have yet to give reasoning or evidence. Foremost is that you aren't arguing anything relevant to this discussion. For example, nobody in this discussion actually disagreed with the observation that there were up to 190k Russians on the border with the Ukraine. Instead, it was all about the allegedly mean people in the Ukraine (invasions and nuclear strikes are too good for 'em), Russia's right to do what they're doing, elementary school geography lessons (Russia is closer to the Ukraine than the US so that somehow matters), or CIA/Western media foibles and propaganda cooties.
There's a whole lot of disinterest in what Russia does as opposed to these weird, tone-deaf propaganda stances. Well, my take is that if it's fine for Russia to meddle in the Ukraine, then it's similarly fine for the US (and NATO/EU/China/whoever) to meddle as well. It's a small world and there's a lot of backyard out there for the enterprising superpower.
(Score: 2) by Pav on Tuesday February 22 2022, @05:07AM (7 children)
You don't seem to want to realise no mainstream source will ever give you a reason to believe anything that would make you less willing to pay taxes to defence companies. Perhaps you own some shares, or feel you benefit in some other way? I suppose it IS within the realm of possibility, though only by cosmic accident. It IS strangely fascinating and amusing talking to someone who is a true believer in the broken window fallacy (probably in the form of post WWII parables).
(Score: 1) by khallow on Tuesday February 22 2022, @01:29PM (6 children)
There are several things broken about this statement. First, it's a story not an argument. None of this is even remotely relevant to the correctness of my arguments in this thread. For example, yes or no: does Russia indeed have a huge military build up on the Ukrainian border? Did Russia just move troops into Ukrainian territory? Did Russia sign a treaty back in the 1990s that it would respect the borders of the Ukraine?
No matter my beliefs or the nature of my media sources, we still have the problems that I've noted (such as Russia's behavior for years) and which you steadfastly refuse to disagree with. It's a particularly weak ad hominem fallacy. And at best, you just describe a bias of some media. Biased media can and does still reveal truth.
Second, it demonstrates a deep flaw in your viewpoint. This story is more important to you than reality. Even when I try to steer to productive discussion you keep reverting to this stagnant narrative. This is just an elaborate form of confirmation bias combined with a huge inability to think outside your box. It's worse than outright discounting sources for terrible reasons. You're not even paying attention to reality in the first place.
Third, you've repeatedly parroted terrible propaganda. By terrible, I mean half-assed. It's some of the laziest crap I've ever seen. Like the neo-Nazis running the Ukraine narrative you've pushed. When we actually look, rather than just swallow your sad propaganda on faith, we do indeed find a few neo-nazis, but not many. Certainly not enough to control the Ukrainian government or rationalize the many harms that Russia has inflicted on the Ukraine. Perhaps, if you're going to complain about my media sources, you should take these beams out of your own eyes first?
(Score: 2) by Pav on Wednesday February 23 2022, @07:42PM (5 children)
Lets have the Russians start supplying Cuba with missile systems (definitely not nuclear!), or perhaps overthrowing the Mexican government so it can join CETO...and then start shelling Tijuana when the US citizens try to break away to form their own republic after anti-US violence. We all know how that would go. You don't sound smart for trying to lawyer something like that, especially in view of actual history.
(Score: 1) by khallow on Wednesday February 23 2022, @09:25PM
(Score: 1) by khallow on Thursday February 24 2022, @01:08PM (3 children)
(Score: 2) by Pav on Friday February 25 2022, @04:30AM (2 children)
Well, even though I have a Ukrainian grandfather (and last name) and a Crimean Russian grandmother (or did until not so long ago) my partner has better connections with that part of the world. Her brother studied and lived for a while in Ukraine, and is now in Moscow. She spoke to him maybe 12 hours ago about this, and apparently the people he knows are sad about the war but believe it was absolutely necessary. Apparently Putin has been unpopular for maybe five years... before that people had his picture on their walls, in their cars etc... then he was repressing opposition and then there was covid so his popularity was in the dumps. Now focus has completely shifted focus to this war. Unsure what it has done to Putins popularity, but his actions are supported. The people my partners brother knows are in Moscow, a place with lots of well off government employed people, and his crowd is a young crowd... so really not a representative sample of Russia, but it is what it is. Perhaps I was laughing at you for supporting this with your tax dollars, but it looks like the western world as a whole will be paying for this failure of diplomacy... massive premiums on petrochemicals and agricultural goods. Bill Gates and his friends were pretty smart for buying up all that farmland when they did.
(Score: 1) by khallow on Friday February 25 2022, @08:13PM (1 child)
The thing is, what can the rest of the world do about that? Putin found himself an external enemy to rally the public against. Did anyone ask the Ukraine if they wanted to be the bad guy? What will happen in a year or two when Putin needs a new enemy to keep the heat off himself? Who is next?
Sorry, these people show the tricks of the trade work: find an enemy, preferably weak; demonize them; and then ruthlessly exploit that to keep the public off your back.
For example, while watching Al Jazeera, I caught a bit of Putin in a press conference talking about Ukrainian neo-nazis or fascists hiding behind innocent civilians. It was a classic demonization move. Hitler couldn't have done better. And that's one of the big concerns about this whole thing for me. The only people acting like Nazis are the Russian government: lying horrible about the military buildup as a war game, ruthless invasion far in excess of any Just War goal, repeated demonization of the foe as if that can justifies the war by itself, etc. I can't help but notice in the last few weeks that the "MIC propaganda" was far more accurate than the Russian side was. Western governments may be notoriously economical with the truth, but they spoke truly then.
My advice: look at actions not labels. The US has had Nazis, the real kind, since before the Second World War. That didn't make the US Nazi. Instead it has a fairly free democracy for 75 years since. Lots of bad actions and mistakes, but while there are some who do better, Russia isn't one of them.
Don't blame diplomacy for this mess. There's no indication that diplomacy would have had any effect on the troop deployment and invasion. My bet is that the timing of the invasion was driven by two factors: the demonstrated weakness of the US following its withdrawal from Afghanistan, and the completion of Nord Stream 2 pipeline work. Even with sanctions, it's extremely unlikely that anyone will disrupt that pipeline now that it's been built.
And Russia probably wouldn't have NATO troubles, if it wasn't such a nasty neighbor.
(Score: 1) by khallow on Saturday February 26 2022, @12:05AM
I think this explanation is too limited. There was probably a number of infrastructure improvements that Russia made in the last few months, of which this is one. It's like the Kiel Canal [wikipedia.org] in the First World War. The canal was an essential part of German strategy, with it a smaller German navy could create a great problem for the UK navy by concentrating their forces in either the North or Baltic seas.
Since some sort of sanctions would be expected from Europe, infrastructure like pipelines or harbors that allow movement of petroleum and natural gas products elsewhere in the world would be a good counter. My bet is that, rather than the vagaries of diplomacy are why Putin decided to attack now.
(Score: 2) by Pav on Monday February 21 2022, @10:01PM (1 child)
It seems that fighting is getting a lot worse in Donbas, and war IS looking increasingly likely.
Perhaps it is as you, Biden and the CIA say, and Putin wants him some spent mines and welfare recipients, and he's false flagging his way into this.
(Score: 1) by khallow on Monday February 21 2022, @10:37PM
I wouldn't be surprised to find that Russia is indeed that desperate. They're certainly bumbling into this in a rather slow way.
(Score: 2) by Pav on Tuesday February 15 2022, @02:46AM (1 child)
...though I suppose you DO get the likes of this [youtube.com] (from 2017) and this [inews.co.uk] (from a few weeks ago)... babushkas and child soldiers being indoctrinated by the Azov battalion with all that neonazi symbology + the blood and soil indoctrination... heartwarming. And why was Richard Engel still working with the Azov Battalion a few weeks ago when the US has already been forced to officially deny any support or comfort to them because... like... they're neonazis? To be fair they're the only Ukrainians really keen for this.
(Score: 1) by khallow on Tuesday February 15 2022, @01:36PM
And I see a complete irrelevance of your entire post to mine. You just can't stop whatabouting can you? As I noted before, it doesn't matter if the entire country is neo-nazi rather than small elements. It still doesn't excuse Russia's behavior.
(Score: 2) by Pav on Monday February 14 2022, @03:15AM (3 children)
BTW, neonazism in Russia? Sure it's there, but do you think Putin is into it inside his own borders? It doesn't serve the state like it did in South Africa, or does in Israel. Russia is a multi-ethnic place comparable to the US. If anything neonazism is a vulnerability, just as it was in Ukraine eg. Recently Navalny was dropped as a prisoner of conscience by Amnesty International because of his xenophobic nationalism, but people were complaining about THAT since 2013. I guess Navalny isn't useful anymore, so his reputation can be taken off western media life support. Neonazism for Putin outside of Russia? I'm sure he would use neonazis, islamofascists etc... in a less well funded way just as easily as the powers that be in the US. BTW, if you ever develop a desire to actually understand the geopolitics of Russia/Ukraine from a direction with different biases try Caspian Report from Azerbaijan (slightly more US than Russia/China aligned... but still usefully independent), Al Jazeera isnt bad (they're originally BBC people cut loose when western media wasn't as interested in actual news on the ground anymore), The Cradle (mostly useful because of Pepe Escobar... a Brazilian who has been on the ground in central asia and eastern europe for many years where a lot has been happening of geopolitical interest). Max Blumenthal is very interesting US source because he has good connections in Washington DC, but is independant. He reports on a lot of foreign policy stuff, and actually went to Venezuela, Nicaragua, the Jan 6th DC protests etc... and reports on stuff that actually happens rather than regurgitating narratives. Blumenthal has forced major news sources to retract stories for instance. Blumenthal recently ceased cooperating with Ben Norton who seemed to be becoming more and more anti-US for its own sake - not useful or enlightening. BTW, Blumenthals interview of Pepe Escobar on YouTube is very interesting regarding Ukraine, Russia, the stans in central Asia, China etc...
(Score: 1) by khallow on Monday February 14 2022, @03:46PM (2 children)
It's not Putin's job to be into neo-nazis or not.
Their mistake. Perhaps some day they and you will learn that "prisoners of conscience" are human with human imperfections. Putin is allowed to be a ruthless snake, but his opponents have to be perfect. That's the sort of thing that permits tyranny to thrive. Here, the real hypocrisy is what makes Navalny's xenophobic nationalism worse than Putin's xenophobic nationalism? Answer: Navalny's not in charge.
No, I'm interested in evidence not biases. You've already demonstrated that your biases are terrible. I'm not interested in the sources that made you such.
(Score: 2) by Pav on Monday February 14 2022, @11:16PM (1 child)
I suppose that's why so many guys in Donbas put their butts on the line to face the Ukrainian army... purely because of Putins propaganda, or maybe pressganged by the Russians. I guess that's why they saw off the Ukrainian army the first time. It had nothing to do with high morale because of the crazy neonazi BS that had been going on (and the low morale of the Ukrainian army because they were mostly not psychos, many having Russian relatives, and knew what had been going on).
(Score: 1) by khallow on Tuesday February 15 2022, @12:14PM
Yes. That and Putin money and resources. We don't need to overthink this.
You just can't help but suck it up, can you? Funny how you talk a great game about Western propaganda, and then just come up with this crazy bullshit, isn't it?