Also, Kirk or Picard, either was very interesting. Sisko was a distant 4th, behind Janeway. Archer isn't even in the same Universe as the others mentioned. I actually finally finished Deep Space 9 and it was pretty good overall. Enterprise is even harder to get into. Not sure why, but maybe it's just horrible compared to the others? I've yet to pay to play/see the Discovery series. Maybe they'll eventually tank / cave and put their stuff on Netflix/Disney/Amazon.
-- Joshua 1:9 "Be strong and of a good courage; be not afraid, neither be thou dismayed: for the Lord thy God is with thee"
Due to the fact that it was the ONLY Star Trek for my childhood and nearly all my teenage years, I will always enjoy the original series with Kirk.
While there are a few episodes to the contrary, to me Picard is a glorified diplomat, not a starship captain. While a captain needs to have some diplomacy, you want them to be able to come out on top in a bare knuckle brawl and Picard does not have that. He seems to be the person to ask for a quick pause in a battle so that he does not miss his tea time.
Sisko has the fighting spirit of a captain. Honestly I believe that DS9 is the 2nd best Star Trek series. (Maybe the best if it wasn't for my nostalgia of the original series.) But, it had 2 or 3 major problems. First is that DS9 started while the Next Generation was still on the air dividing viewership. The year after TNG ended, voyager began leaving DS9 to never really run alone. Second, DS9 is heavily episodic. If you miss an episode or two, you are really thrown for a loop which is not the best way to watch a series. Only in recent years has this been rectified by people watching it on streaming services where they can watch at their own pace and not miss any episodes. Third (not as bad as 1&2) is that the station stays in the same place, it is not a starship. In many cases they had to figure out how to bring the plot to the station instead of traveling to the action. They did an ok job of it, but this is why they later had to bring in the Defiant so that they could leave the station.
Voyager... I don't know why, I just could not get into this series. I watch the first 2 seasons thinking I was just bored with the initial character development but then I stopped even that when I wasn't getting the expected enjoyment from the series. Anf of course, we know for a fact that Jeri Ryan was brought in to improve ratings, so it wasn't just me that wasn't impressed with the series. For what its worth... Janeway definitely had more balls then Picard did, but she was not the pitbull of Kirk or Sisko. In the end, I did later binge watch the entire series... It is not as bad as I first remembered, and it is decent overall... but not as good as the rest here.
Sadly in modern TV, the first season is almost all character development. This does not just affect Star Trek but other shows as well. The first season of many shows is boring compared to the rest. (While well worth the end result, I found the first season of Dexter and Breaking bad as lackluster, and many other shows as well including the Next Generation and DS9.) This effect hit Enterprise as well, so much that they were still doing character development through the 2nd relatively boring season. And another problem arose while it was almost canceled after 2 seasons, the writers were used to having 7 years of episodes in each of the prior series of modern times. The 3rd season had one overall plot to find and stop the people of a weapon that attacked earth. Normally this would be a small mini arc within a season but it dragged on for a full season and that was mostly just an investigation. There was a lack of actual action in Enterprise. As bad as the character development trial was for the first 2 seasons it was relatively quick paced compared to the drawn out slogfest known as season 3. Season 4 was different for Enterprise. With the threat of cancellation constantly looming, the writers instead happened to do something wonderful. (Apparently through luck they stumbled upon something) Knowing that all there ideas would not likely see the light of day, they took plot ideas that were supposed to be for an entire season of Enterprise and compressed them down to 3 episodes each. Each mini-season (mini-series maybe?) actually was great once they got rid of the plot dragging bs that entered every episode in S1-3. IMHO, Season 4 was the best Star trek season since DS9's war on the Dominion. If Season 3 had been cut down to a 3 part mini-series and more of them created like that, we might not have seen the series cancelled so early.
As for Picard and Discovery series... I have not watched them at all. CBS/Viacom can take their money grubbing rent-seeking stream only series and shove it up the *** of their executives. I've seen a lot of Star Trek in my lifetime... I do not need to pay more to see new series that likely will ruin more of my enjoyable nostalgia.
-- Now with 5 covid vaccine shots/boosters altering my DNA :P
When DS9 started, I had a new baby and did not have time to watch both DS9 and B5 (Babylon 5). As I realized the complexity of DS9, I decided I did not want to try to follow two different series that had many races, religions, politics, etc. Boy was I glad I watched B5.
Years later on streaming, I did eventually watch all of DS9 and enjoyed it. I also realized how much effort was put into trying to copy as much as possible from B5.
I was seriously undewhelmed with Voyager. The only good thing was that the designers of Voyager had the foresight to equip Voyager with an infinite number of shuttle craft. I managed to stick with it until about mid way through season five. I did eventually watch the very last couple episodes with the conclusion. Never watched it again.
Did not watch Enterprise.
I did watch the first few of the new Star Trek movies. I was extremely disappointed that they decided to rewind everything by forty years and press the reset button. No thanks. Like you, I started Star Trek as a child and through teenage years and spent a lifetime watching. I didn't want to rewind everything and see them do it all differently. So I never watched any new Star Trek anything from that point forward. Zip. Zilch. None of the new series or movies.
I still enjoy the 1960s trek from time to time. I know every episode. Maybe even every line of dialog. I also very much enjoyed TNG. Those two would probably be my top favorites.
So maybe a good Poll idea for SN would be which Star Trek?
-- The lower I set my standards the more accomplishments I have.
While a captain needs to have some diplomacy, you want them to be able to come out on top in a bare knuckle brawl and Picard does not have that.
Picard does that on several occasions. Not quite as good as Kirk in unarmed combat, but that's also in part because he doesn't end up in a position where bare-knuckle brawl is his best option the way Kirk regularly does (out-of-universe, the reason for this is that network executives wanted Kirk to do a lot of fighting, to the point where he'd end up in brawls even if there was no good plot reason for it). If I'm not mistaken, he's even tangled in hand-to-hand with Klingons and lived. He's also shown on many occasions that with weapons available, he's an effective and creative combatant. Heck, the episode "Tapestry" is all about how a willingness to engage in bare-knuckle brawling is key to who Picard is, and he was apparently doing well until the Klingon he was fighting pulled a knife.
A large part of the perceived difference is one of Federation doctrine: In Kirk's time, they routinely risk the captain in away teams and ground combat. In Picard's time, they consider captains to be high-value targets who should be left in the relative safety of the ship when possible and have the first officer normally leading away teams and ground combat. There are exceptions, of course, but that's the usual plan.
-- The only thing that stops a bad guy with a compiler is a good guy with a compiler.
I pretty much agree with you as well... Picard did have some opportunities, but not nearly as many as Kirk. However, Sisko did get quite a bit of his aggression out despite being in charge of DS9.
As for Kirk kicking the ass of Klingons (Instead of Klingons just sticking there :P .) Klingons were wimpier then affected by a human retrovirus made with genes from Kahn and his group of augmented supermen. At least that is the current lore. which was introduced in Star Trek: Enterprise. https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Klingon#Augment_virus [fandom.com]
This storyline, seen in the Star Trek: Enterprise episodes "Affliction" and "Divergence", was intended in part to explain why TOS Klingons had a more Human appearance, and later Klingons did not. The writers also hoped the two-parter would shed some light on the change in the Klingons' temperament and disposition between the TOS and Star Trek: The Next Generation eras.
... AND ...
In TOS: "The Savage Curtain", the Excalbians created Kahless as an affected Klingon. This may however be attributed to the fact that they created him from the minds of Humans who at that point mostly had dealings with smooth forehead Klingons. A cure to restore Klingons to their proper appearance was presumably found some time between 2268 and 2293, as Kang was seen as a smooth-headed Klingon in TOS: "Day of the Dove" and as a normal Klingon in VOY: "Flashback". The first time normal Klingons were seen on screen was in Star Trek: The Motion Picture set in the early-2270s. In Star Trek: Discovery, set before Star Trek: The Original Series, as well as in the alternate reality also in the 2250s, Klingons are shown with forehead ridges, which means that the virus was either partially cured or not all Klingons were affected. A set used in "Will You Take My Hand?" was said to include graffiti including the insult "Your mother has a flat forehead".
-- Now with 5 covid vaccine shots/boosters altering my DNA :P
I pretty much agree with you as well... Picard did have some opportunities, but not nearly as many as Kirk. However, Sisko did get quite a bit of his aggression out despite being in charge of DS9.
Sisko was in charge of a space station, so a lot of the time potential enemies came to *him*, instead of needing to go on an away mission to find them.
-- "Is that really true?"
"I just spent the last hour telling you to think for yourself! Didn't you hear anything I said?"
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday March 26 2022, @09:13AM
by Anonymous Coward
on Saturday March 26 2022, @09:13AM (#1232338)
Picard is also almost twice Kirk's age. If he lived in the US at the time the TNG pilot aired, he would have been able to retire on Social Security. Do people really wonder why the sexagenarian with designated muscle isn't picking fist fights with people all the time?
Most episodes were presented as action/adventure dramas, frequently including space battles or fist fights between the ship's crew and guest antagonists.
Gunsmoke had plenty of fist fights too as I recall.
Star Trek: TOS always seemed like a western in Space.
-- Joshua 1:9 "Be strong and of a good courage; be not afraid, neither be thou dismayed: for the Lord thy God is with thee"
I'm a bit late to the discussion here, but I think Picard doesn't get enough credit here.
Picard got into a lot of fights when he was younger. It's why he has an artificial heart. TNG examines this a bit in Samaritan Snare, which is a fairly unremarkable episode. They revisit it later in Tapestry, which you mentioned. Q allows Picard to change his past, and shows that his wild behavior at a younger age was necessary to shape the man he became. Picard had a lot more in common with Kirk when he was younger than we give him credit for. Picard needed some discipline to put his drive and determination to good use instead of brawling with Nausicaans.
The Best of Both Worlds also examines Picard's determination and willpower a bit. Admiral Hanson foreshadows this in response to Shelby commenting on Picard assisting the Borg, when he comments about Picard's drive and determination to pass upperclassmen at the end of the Academy marathon. Worf's line about the Borg having neither honor nor courage, and that being the Federation's greatest advantage, also foreshadows the ending. There's also a scene where the Borg are adding implants to Picard, and there's a tear that rolls down the side of his face, showing that he hasn't lost his humanity to the Borg. In the end, all of the technobabble solutions fail, with the Enterprise's weapons being useless and Data failing to access any of the Borg's critical systems. Troi says that Picard was speaking instead of Locutus, finding a way to resist the Borg's programming and tell Data how to destroy the Borg cube. The implication here is that Picard is particularly strong-willed and could resist the Borg where others wouldn't be able to. Resistance wasn't futile.
Or watch Chain of Command, where Picard spends a good portion of the two-part episode being tortured in a Cardassian interrogation chamber, resisting the brainwashing efforts. Even Picard had a breaking point, as he confided to Troi after being rescued. But he resisted the torture long enough to be rescued, even choosing to stay and be tortured when he believed the Cardassian interrogator was going to torture Crusher instead.
Picard is tough as nails, as tough as any of the captains. He doesn't show it with hand-to-hand combat, but there's nothing weak about him. He's just also very disciplined, as Spock notes when he says that Picard has a Vulcan-like quality about him.
Discovery rewrites Star Trek history. I gave up in disgust after a few episodes. Someone told me it is set in the Chris Pine as Kirk universe rather than the Shatner as Kirk universe. I started to watch Star Trek Picard, and it was good, but I was not really in the mood for the large set of intrigues it seemed to be setting up and I stopped watching. I watched Deep Space Nine for part of the first season, then I moved where I couldn't watch it at all. I recently streamed the whole series, and I really liked it. Sisko was probably the most badass of all the Star Trek captains, often outpunching Klingons or Jem'Hadar. The storyline for the entire series I thought was well put together. TOS of course was the first and set the tone for everything that followed. It was a remarkable show, especially considering when it was made. There were some cringy things, the idea of Uhura, a trained bridge officer, clinging to Kirk in a tense moment and saying "Oh captain, I'm scared" and other such occurrences. It pushed the ideas of great characters first in a usually bogged down in tech and special effects genre. It's a shame it was suddenly canceled without any closure for followers. TNG was a very good series, with some powerful episodes, but somehow it was harder to like the characters. Stewart as Picard was great, as was Brent Spiner as Data, but the rest just seemed to be created to flesh out a full set of characters. Perhaps Roddenberry was trying to finish what he started on TOS. I seem to be in the minority, but I liked Voyager. Janeway was much more like Kirk than Picard. She had the same attitude towards the Prime Directive as Kirk, stick to it when she had a choice, but willing to gamble on bending or breaking it if she did not. Most critics I've read seem infuriated that she didn't break it in every instance where the success of Voyager returning home was possibly on the line. I never watched much of Enterprise. I think Scott Bakula, although a good enough actor, was just too well known to be a good choice as a Star Trek captain. I may have to try again, based on your description of season 4.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday April 04 2022, @05:54AM
(1 child)
by Anonymous Coward
on Monday April 04 2022, @05:54AM (#1234691)
Voyager was good at what it was meant to be, pure episodic science fiction (and starkly opposed to DS9's serial approach). The people I know who dislike it do so specifically because it is too episodic. As for the criticism of Janeway and the Prime Directive, I can understand that when you factor in the pilot. The whole reason they are stuck in the Delta Quadrant at all is because Janeway, and Janeway alone, made the decision to violate the Prime Directive in the stupidest, most unnecessary way. After that decision, watching her pick and choose when to follow it, preach about it when she will likely make a different choice next time, and with the Universe bending to her will to prove her correct, I don't think it is too hard to see why Janeway gets extra crap for the decisions she makes during the course of the show. But if you take it for what it is, and remember that it is episodic and not serial, it is also easy to overlook.
Enterprise season 4 is what I thought the whole show would be. They tried to pivot out of their 3-season-long Temporal Cold War arc but it was too late. It struck the right balance between being episodic and serial that the first three seasons didn't have.
I don't think serialization hurt DS9. It really wasn't much more serialized than other very successful series from that era like the X-Files. You had many self-contained episodes with a larger story arc. In the X-Files, it was about the colonization of Earth by extraterrestrials. In DS9, it was the Dominion war. TNG also had multiple story arcs, notably including the politics of the Klingon Empire and the honor of Worf's family and the tensions with the Romulan Star Empire. It wasn't serialized to the degree that DS9 and the X-Files were, but TNG had a level of serialization that did not exist at all in TOS. Even during the Dominion War, most DS9 episodes were self-contained stories.
DS9 has a different feel from other series because of the character development. In TOS, Kirk is the heroic protagonist, with his inner struggle between logic and emotion being voiced by two other protagonists, Spock and McCoy, respectively. TNG doesn't really explore a lot of flaws and darker elements of the main cast. For the most part, the characters are still portrayed in the same way TOS did. DS9 still follows Gene Roddenberry's rule of generally avoiding melodrama and conflict among the crew, unlike shows like Discovery. But the characters are portrayed as more flawed than TOS and TNG ever did.
The popularity of Star Trek during the Rick Berman era generally declined, and there was always another Star Trek series ongoing during DS9's run. There was great demand for a Star Trek reboot in 1987 when TNG began, and that enthusiasm waned a bit as Star Trek continued and new series were created. DS9 didn't quite have the opportunity to grow a fan base like TNG did.
As for Voyager, it was basically seasons 8-14 of TNG. If anything, it probably needed more serialization than what we got. There were story arcs like Seven of Nine reclaiming her individuality and the development of the Doctor, which were great. But the audience never really got to know characters like Chakotay and Harry Kim.
When Q flung the Enterprise to system J25, he told Picard that the Federation was moving into areas of the galaxy with wonders greater than you can imagine and terrors to freeze your soul. I know, Voyager was hurled roughly ten times as far as the Enterprise, but a lot of what Voyager encountered just wasn't all that interesting. The Borg were weakened to the point of being easily defeated. The Kazon just weren't interesting at all. The Hirogen seemed a lot like the Klingons of the Delta Quadrant. Yes, the Vidiians were extremely creepy. The Krenim were interesting, but we saw them for all of three episodes, when the story could have been developed more.
Voyager had a lot of promise, both to explore the completely new frontier of the Delta Quadrant, and to spend a lot more time on character development exploring the crew. Neither was done particularly well. TNG's writers were running out of ideas by the seventh season, and writing seven more seasons of TNG in the Delta Quadrant wasn't all that interesting. The TNG-era Federation was pretty complacent, something Picard laments in Q Who after encountering the Borg. DS9 pushed the Federation out of their complacency by presenting them with the existential threat of the Dominion, and did it very well. Voyager pushed the ship out of the complacency by hurling them 75,000 light years across the galaxy, far beyond the safety of Federation space, but didn't deliver on the premise.
Individual episodes of Voyager generally weren't bad. But the series as a whole just wasn't all that interesting. It would have been better if Berman didn't make Voyager into TNG set in the Delta Quadrant. Voyager needed to be fresh and interesting while still following Roddenberry's premise. Still, I'll take any Berman-era Trek over what we get from JJ Abrams and Alex Kurtzman.
(Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday April 14 2022, @09:31AM
by Anonymous Coward
on Thursday April 14 2022, @09:31AM (#1236867)
Picard is supposed to be a glorified diplomat. TNG was about how an enlightened society should be able to resolve problems without fighting. They failed a lot at that since people are flawed, but that's the underlying theme of the series.
Feel free to skip the latest Star Treks (watch The Orville and/or Lower Decks instead). The main characters are all emotionally immature and unfit to crew a spacecraft.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday April 14 2022, @01:17PM
(1 child)
by Anonymous Coward
on Thursday April 14 2022, @01:17PM (#1236892)
Ja Kirk is an obvious winner. The competition is between captains who are not Kirk. There was a time when I would have said Picard easily but Janeway really gained my confidence over time
Janeway is an OK captain and I think she'd be better if it weren't for the contrived plot points affecting her decisions. The most obvious one is the fact that in the very first episode she could use the Caretaker's array to transport them home but insists on destroying it to prevent its misuse, trapping them in the Delta Quadrant. Obviously it's a vital plot point to set up the premise of the entire series, but it does come across as a sort of stubborn, even thoughtless, idealism by Janeway, especially when you consider how badly they need to get home, how difficult it is, and the sort of effort they're willing to put in to do it. So, the Caretaker needed the array destroyed to stop the Kazon using the technology? Fine, set up a timed detonation (maybe with a shuttle craft, a few photon torpedoes, even their own warp core) to destroy it immediately after they go through it.
-- If a cat has kittens, does a rat have rittens, a bat bittens and a mat mittens?
(Score: 2) by Freeman on Wednesday March 23 2022, @06:47PM (15 children)
Also, Kirk or Picard, either was very interesting. Sisko was a distant 4th, behind Janeway. Archer isn't even in the same Universe as the others mentioned. I actually finally finished Deep Space 9 and it was pretty good overall. Enterprise is even harder to get into. Not sure why, but maybe it's just horrible compared to the others? I've yet to pay to play/see the Discovery series. Maybe they'll eventually tank / cave and put their stuff on Netflix/Disney/Amazon.
Joshua 1:9 "Be strong and of a good courage; be not afraid, neither be thou dismayed: for the Lord thy God is with thee"
(Score: 3, Interesting) by stretch611 on Wednesday March 23 2022, @10:52PM (14 children)
Due to the fact that it was the ONLY Star Trek for my childhood and nearly all my teenage years, I will always enjoy the original series with Kirk.
While there are a few episodes to the contrary, to me Picard is a glorified diplomat, not a starship captain. While a captain needs to have some diplomacy, you want them to be able to come out on top in a bare knuckle brawl and Picard does not have that. He seems to be the person to ask for a quick pause in a battle so that he does not miss his tea time.
Sisko has the fighting spirit of a captain. Honestly I believe that DS9 is the 2nd best Star Trek series. (Maybe the best if it wasn't for my nostalgia of the original series.) But, it had 2 or 3 major problems.
First is that DS9 started while the Next Generation was still on the air dividing viewership. The year after TNG ended, voyager began leaving DS9 to never really run alone.
Second, DS9 is heavily episodic. If you miss an episode or two, you are really thrown for a loop which is not the best way to watch a series. Only in recent years has this been rectified by people watching it on streaming services where they can watch at their own pace and not miss any episodes.
Third (not as bad as 1&2) is that the station stays in the same place, it is not a starship. In many cases they had to figure out how to bring the plot to the station instead of traveling to the action. They did an ok job of it, but this is why they later had to bring in the Defiant so that they could leave the station.
Voyager... I don't know why, I just could not get into this series. I watch the first 2 seasons thinking I was just bored with the initial character development but then I stopped even that when I wasn't getting the expected enjoyment from the series. Anf of course, we know for a fact that Jeri Ryan was brought in to improve ratings, so it wasn't just me that wasn't impressed with the series. For what its worth... Janeway definitely had more balls then Picard did, but she was not the pitbull of Kirk or Sisko.
In the end, I did later binge watch the entire series... It is not as bad as I first remembered, and it is decent overall... but not as good as the rest here.
Sadly in modern TV, the first season is almost all character development. This does not just affect Star Trek but other shows as well. The first season of many shows is boring compared to the rest. (While well worth the end result, I found the first season of Dexter and Breaking bad as lackluster, and many other shows as well including the Next Generation and DS9.) This effect hit Enterprise as well, so much that they were still doing character development through the 2nd relatively boring season.
And another problem arose while it was almost canceled after 2 seasons, the writers were used to having 7 years of episodes in each of the prior series of modern times. The 3rd season had one overall plot to find and stop the people of a weapon that attacked earth. Normally this would be a small mini arc within a season but it dragged on for a full season and that was mostly just an investigation. There was a lack of actual action in Enterprise. As bad as the character development trial was for the first 2 seasons it was relatively quick paced compared to the drawn out slogfest known as season 3.
Season 4 was different for Enterprise. With the threat of cancellation constantly looming, the writers instead happened to do something wonderful. (Apparently through luck they stumbled upon something) Knowing that all there ideas would not likely see the light of day, they took plot ideas that were supposed to be for an entire season of Enterprise and compressed them down to 3 episodes each. Each mini-season (mini-series maybe?) actually was great once they got rid of the plot dragging bs that entered every episode in S1-3. IMHO, Season 4 was the best Star trek season since DS9's war on the Dominion. If Season 3 had been cut down to a 3 part mini-series and more of them created like that, we might not have seen the series cancelled so early.
As for Picard and Discovery series... I have not watched them at all. CBS/Viacom can take their money grubbing rent-seeking stream only series and shove it up the *** of their executives. I've seen a lot of Star Trek in my lifetime... I do not need to pay more to see new series that likely will ruin more of my enjoyable nostalgia.
Now with 5 covid vaccine shots/boosters altering my DNA :P
(Score: 2) by DannyB on Thursday March 24 2022, @02:23PM
My feelings about Star Trek are similar to yours.
When DS9 started, I had a new baby and did not have time to watch both DS9 and B5 (Babylon 5). As I realized the complexity of DS9, I decided I did not want to try to follow two different series that had many races, religions, politics, etc. Boy was I glad I watched B5.
Years later on streaming, I did eventually watch all of DS9 and enjoyed it. I also realized how much effort was put into trying to copy as much as possible from B5.
I was seriously undewhelmed with Voyager. The only good thing was that the designers of Voyager had the foresight to equip Voyager with an infinite number of shuttle craft. I managed to stick with it until about mid way through season five. I did eventually watch the very last couple episodes with the conclusion. Never watched it again.
Did not watch Enterprise.
I did watch the first few of the new Star Trek movies. I was extremely disappointed that they decided to rewind everything by forty years and press the reset button. No thanks. Like you, I started Star Trek as a child and through teenage years and spent a lifetime watching. I didn't want to rewind everything and see them do it all differently. So I never watched any new Star Trek anything from that point forward. Zip. Zilch. None of the new series or movies.
I still enjoy the 1960s trek from time to time. I know every episode. Maybe even every line of dialog. I also very much enjoyed TNG. Those two would probably be my top favorites.
So maybe a good Poll idea for SN would be which Star Trek?
The lower I set my standards the more accomplishments I have.
(Score: 2) by Thexalon on Friday March 25 2022, @07:27PM (5 children)
Picard does that on several occasions. Not quite as good as Kirk in unarmed combat, but that's also in part because he doesn't end up in a position where bare-knuckle brawl is his best option the way Kirk regularly does (out-of-universe, the reason for this is that network executives wanted Kirk to do a lot of fighting, to the point where he'd end up in brawls even if there was no good plot reason for it). If I'm not mistaken, he's even tangled in hand-to-hand with Klingons and lived. He's also shown on many occasions that with weapons available, he's an effective and creative combatant. Heck, the episode "Tapestry" is all about how a willingness to engage in bare-knuckle brawling is key to who Picard is, and he was apparently doing well until the Klingon he was fighting pulled a knife.
A large part of the perceived difference is one of Federation doctrine: In Kirk's time, they routinely risk the captain in away teams and ground combat. In Picard's time, they consider captains to be high-value targets who should be left in the relative safety of the ship when possible and have the first officer normally leading away teams and ground combat. There are exceptions, of course, but that's the usual plan.
The only thing that stops a bad guy with a compiler is a good guy with a compiler.
(Score: 2) by stretch611 on Saturday March 26 2022, @04:25AM (1 child)
I pretty much agree with you as well... Picard did have some opportunities, but not nearly as many as Kirk. However, Sisko did get quite a bit of his aggression out despite being in charge of DS9.
As for Kirk kicking the ass of Klingons (Instead of Klingons just sticking there :P .) Klingons were wimpier then affected by a human retrovirus made with genes from Kahn and his group of augmented supermen. At least that is the current lore. which was introduced in Star Trek: Enterprise.
https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Klingon#Augment_virus [fandom.com]
... AND ...
Now with 5 covid vaccine shots/boosters altering my DNA :P
(Score: 2) by tangomargarine on Tuesday March 29 2022, @07:00PM
Sisko was in charge of a space station, so a lot of the time potential enemies came to *him*, instead of needing to go on an away mission to find them.
"Is that really true?" "I just spent the last hour telling you to think for yourself! Didn't you hear anything I said?"
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday March 26 2022, @09:13AM
Picard is also almost twice Kirk's age. If he lived in the US at the time the TNG pilot aired, he would have been able to retire on Social Security. Do people really wonder why the sexagenarian with designated muscle isn't picking fist fights with people all the time?
(Score: 2) by Freeman on Monday March 28 2022, @03:55PM
From an external point-of-view, TOS was created when Gunsmoke was a thing.
Regarding TOS: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_Trek:_The_Original_Series [wikipedia.org]
Gunsmoke had plenty of fist fights too as I recall.
Star Trek: TOS always seemed like a western in Space.
Joshua 1:9 "Be strong and of a good courage; be not afraid, neither be thou dismayed: for the Lord thy God is with thee"
(Score: 2) by dalek on Sunday April 10 2022, @10:43PM
I'm a bit late to the discussion here, but I think Picard doesn't get enough credit here.
Picard got into a lot of fights when he was younger. It's why he has an artificial heart. TNG examines this a bit in Samaritan Snare, which is a fairly unremarkable episode. They revisit it later in Tapestry, which you mentioned. Q allows Picard to change his past, and shows that his wild behavior at a younger age was necessary to shape the man he became. Picard had a lot more in common with Kirk when he was younger than we give him credit for. Picard needed some discipline to put his drive and determination to good use instead of brawling with Nausicaans.
The Best of Both Worlds also examines Picard's determination and willpower a bit. Admiral Hanson foreshadows this in response to Shelby commenting on Picard assisting the Borg, when he comments about Picard's drive and determination to pass upperclassmen at the end of the Academy marathon. Worf's line about the Borg having neither honor nor courage, and that being the Federation's greatest advantage, also foreshadows the ending. There's also a scene where the Borg are adding implants to Picard, and there's a tear that rolls down the side of his face, showing that he hasn't lost his humanity to the Borg. In the end, all of the technobabble solutions fail, with the Enterprise's weapons being useless and Data failing to access any of the Borg's critical systems. Troi says that Picard was speaking instead of Locutus, finding a way to resist the Borg's programming and tell Data how to destroy the Borg cube. The implication here is that Picard is particularly strong-willed and could resist the Borg where others wouldn't be able to. Resistance wasn't futile.
Or watch Chain of Command, where Picard spends a good portion of the two-part episode being tortured in a Cardassian interrogation chamber, resisting the brainwashing efforts. Even Picard had a breaking point, as he confided to Troi after being rescued. But he resisted the torture long enough to be rescued, even choosing to stay and be tortured when he believed the Cardassian interrogator was going to torture Crusher instead.
Picard is tough as nails, as tough as any of the captains. He doesn't show it with hand-to-hand combat, but there's nothing weak about him. He's just also very disciplined, as Spock notes when he says that Picard has a Vulcan-like quality about him.
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(Score: 2) by Joe Desertrat on Sunday April 03 2022, @01:13AM (2 children)
Discovery rewrites Star Trek history. I gave up in disgust after a few episodes. Someone told me it is set in the Chris Pine as Kirk universe rather than the Shatner as Kirk universe. I started to watch Star Trek Picard, and it was good, but I was not really in the mood for the large set of intrigues it seemed to be setting up and I stopped watching.
I watched Deep Space Nine for part of the first season, then I moved where I couldn't watch it at all. I recently streamed the whole series, and I really liked it. Sisko was probably the most badass of all the Star Trek captains, often outpunching Klingons or Jem'Hadar. The storyline for the entire series I thought was well put together.
TOS of course was the first and set the tone for everything that followed. It was a remarkable show, especially considering when it was made. There were some cringy things, the idea of Uhura, a trained bridge officer, clinging to Kirk in a tense moment and saying "Oh captain, I'm scared" and other such occurrences. It pushed the ideas of great characters first in a usually bogged down in tech and special effects genre. It's a shame it was suddenly canceled without any closure for followers.
TNG was a very good series, with some powerful episodes, but somehow it was harder to like the characters. Stewart as Picard was great, as was Brent Spiner as Data, but the rest just seemed to be created to flesh out a full set of characters. Perhaps Roddenberry was trying to finish what he started on TOS.
I seem to be in the minority, but I liked Voyager. Janeway was much more like Kirk than Picard. She had the same attitude towards the Prime Directive as Kirk, stick to it when she had a choice, but willing to gamble on bending or breaking it if she did not. Most critics I've read seem infuriated that she didn't break it in every instance where the success of Voyager returning home was possibly on the line.
I never watched much of Enterprise. I think Scott Bakula, although a good enough actor, was just too well known to be a good choice as a Star Trek captain. I may have to try again, based on your description of season 4.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday April 04 2022, @05:54AM (1 child)
Voyager was good at what it was meant to be, pure episodic science fiction (and starkly opposed to DS9's serial approach). The people I know who dislike it do so specifically because it is too episodic. As for the criticism of Janeway and the Prime Directive, I can understand that when you factor in the pilot. The whole reason they are stuck in the Delta Quadrant at all is because Janeway, and Janeway alone, made the decision to violate the Prime Directive in the stupidest, most unnecessary way. After that decision, watching her pick and choose when to follow it, preach about it when she will likely make a different choice next time, and with the Universe bending to her will to prove her correct, I don't think it is too hard to see why Janeway gets extra crap for the decisions she makes during the course of the show. But if you take it for what it is, and remember that it is episodic and not serial, it is also easy to overlook.
Enterprise season 4 is what I thought the whole show would be. They tried to pivot out of their 3-season-long Temporal Cold War arc but it was too late. It struck the right balance between being episodic and serial that the first three seasons didn't have.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday April 05 2022, @08:12PM
Just don't watch the series finale. What a disappointing load of crap.
(Score: 2) by dalek on Sunday April 10 2022, @11:19PM
I don't think serialization hurt DS9. It really wasn't much more serialized than other very successful series from that era like the X-Files. You had many self-contained episodes with a larger story arc. In the X-Files, it was about the colonization of Earth by extraterrestrials. In DS9, it was the Dominion war. TNG also had multiple story arcs, notably including the politics of the Klingon Empire and the honor of Worf's family and the tensions with the Romulan Star Empire. It wasn't serialized to the degree that DS9 and the X-Files were, but TNG had a level of serialization that did not exist at all in TOS. Even during the Dominion War, most DS9 episodes were self-contained stories.
DS9 has a different feel from other series because of the character development. In TOS, Kirk is the heroic protagonist, with his inner struggle between logic and emotion being voiced by two other protagonists, Spock and McCoy, respectively. TNG doesn't really explore a lot of flaws and darker elements of the main cast. For the most part, the characters are still portrayed in the same way TOS did. DS9 still follows Gene Roddenberry's rule of generally avoiding melodrama and conflict among the crew, unlike shows like Discovery. But the characters are portrayed as more flawed than TOS and TNG ever did.
The popularity of Star Trek during the Rick Berman era generally declined, and there was always another Star Trek series ongoing during DS9's run. There was great demand for a Star Trek reboot in 1987 when TNG began, and that enthusiasm waned a bit as Star Trek continued and new series were created. DS9 didn't quite have the opportunity to grow a fan base like TNG did.
As for Voyager, it was basically seasons 8-14 of TNG. If anything, it probably needed more serialization than what we got. There were story arcs like Seven of Nine reclaiming her individuality and the development of the Doctor, which were great. But the audience never really got to know characters like Chakotay and Harry Kim.
When Q flung the Enterprise to system J25, he told Picard that the Federation was moving into areas of the galaxy with wonders greater than you can imagine and terrors to freeze your soul. I know, Voyager was hurled roughly ten times as far as the Enterprise, but a lot of what Voyager encountered just wasn't all that interesting. The Borg were weakened to the point of being easily defeated. The Kazon just weren't interesting at all. The Hirogen seemed a lot like the Klingons of the Delta Quadrant. Yes, the Vidiians were extremely creepy. The Krenim were interesting, but we saw them for all of three episodes, when the story could have been developed more.
Voyager had a lot of promise, both to explore the completely new frontier of the Delta Quadrant, and to spend a lot more time on character development exploring the crew. Neither was done particularly well. TNG's writers were running out of ideas by the seventh season, and writing seven more seasons of TNG in the Delta Quadrant wasn't all that interesting. The TNG-era Federation was pretty complacent, something Picard laments in Q Who after encountering the Borg. DS9 pushed the Federation out of their complacency by presenting them with the existential threat of the Dominion, and did it very well. Voyager pushed the ship out of the complacency by hurling them 75,000 light years across the galaxy, far beyond the safety of Federation space, but didn't deliver on the premise.
Individual episodes of Voyager generally weren't bad. But the series as a whole just wasn't all that interesting. It would have been better if Berman didn't make Voyager into TNG set in the Delta Quadrant. Voyager needed to be fresh and interesting while still following Roddenberry's premise. Still, I'll take any Berman-era Trek over what we get from JJ Abrams and Alex Kurtzman.
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(Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday April 14 2022, @09:31AM
Picard is supposed to be a glorified diplomat. TNG was about how an enlightened society should be able to resolve problems without fighting. They failed a lot at that since people are flawed, but that's the underlying theme of the series.
Feel free to skip the latest Star Treks (watch The Orville and/or Lower Decks instead). The main characters are all emotionally immature and unfit to crew a spacecraft.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday April 14 2022, @01:17PM (1 child)
Ja Kirk is an obvious winner. The competition is between captains who are not Kirk. There was a time when I would have said Picard easily but Janeway really gained my confidence over time
(Score: 2) by acid andy on Friday April 15 2022, @11:17PM
Janeway is an OK captain and I think she'd be better if it weren't for the contrived plot points affecting her decisions. The most obvious one is the fact that in the very first episode she could use the Caretaker's array to transport them home but insists on destroying it to prevent its misuse, trapping them in the Delta Quadrant. Obviously it's a vital plot point to set up the premise of the entire series, but it does come across as a sort of stubborn, even thoughtless, idealism by Janeway, especially when you consider how badly they need to get home, how difficult it is, and the sort of effort they're willing to put in to do it. So, the Caretaker needed the array destroyed to stop the Kazon using the technology? Fine, set up a timed detonation (maybe with a shuttle craft, a few photon torpedoes, even their own warp core) to destroy it immediately after they go through it.
If a cat has kittens, does a rat have rittens, a bat bittens and a mat mittens?