While a captain needs to have some diplomacy, you want them to be able to come out on top in a bare knuckle brawl and Picard does not have that.
Picard does that on several occasions. Not quite as good as Kirk in unarmed combat, but that's also in part because he doesn't end up in a position where bare-knuckle brawl is his best option the way Kirk regularly does (out-of-universe, the reason for this is that network executives wanted Kirk to do a lot of fighting, to the point where he'd end up in brawls even if there was no good plot reason for it). If I'm not mistaken, he's even tangled in hand-to-hand with Klingons and lived. He's also shown on many occasions that with weapons available, he's an effective and creative combatant. Heck, the episode "Tapestry" is all about how a willingness to engage in bare-knuckle brawling is key to who Picard is, and he was apparently doing well until the Klingon he was fighting pulled a knife.
A large part of the perceived difference is one of Federation doctrine: In Kirk's time, they routinely risk the captain in away teams and ground combat. In Picard's time, they consider captains to be high-value targets who should be left in the relative safety of the ship when possible and have the first officer normally leading away teams and ground combat. There are exceptions, of course, but that's the usual plan.
-- The only thing that stops a bad guy with a compiler is a good guy with a compiler.
I pretty much agree with you as well... Picard did have some opportunities, but not nearly as many as Kirk. However, Sisko did get quite a bit of his aggression out despite being in charge of DS9.
As for Kirk kicking the ass of Klingons (Instead of Klingons just sticking there :P .) Klingons were wimpier then affected by a human retrovirus made with genes from Kahn and his group of augmented supermen. At least that is the current lore. which was introduced in Star Trek: Enterprise. https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Klingon#Augment_virus [fandom.com]
This storyline, seen in the Star Trek: Enterprise episodes "Affliction" and "Divergence", was intended in part to explain why TOS Klingons had a more Human appearance, and later Klingons did not. The writers also hoped the two-parter would shed some light on the change in the Klingons' temperament and disposition between the TOS and Star Trek: The Next Generation eras.
... AND ...
In TOS: "The Savage Curtain", the Excalbians created Kahless as an affected Klingon. This may however be attributed to the fact that they created him from the minds of Humans who at that point mostly had dealings with smooth forehead Klingons. A cure to restore Klingons to their proper appearance was presumably found some time between 2268 and 2293, as Kang was seen as a smooth-headed Klingon in TOS: "Day of the Dove" and as a normal Klingon in VOY: "Flashback". The first time normal Klingons were seen on screen was in Star Trek: The Motion Picture set in the early-2270s. In Star Trek: Discovery, set before Star Trek: The Original Series, as well as in the alternate reality also in the 2250s, Klingons are shown with forehead ridges, which means that the virus was either partially cured or not all Klingons were affected. A set used in "Will You Take My Hand?" was said to include graffiti including the insult "Your mother has a flat forehead".
-- Now with 5 covid vaccine shots/boosters altering my DNA :P
I pretty much agree with you as well... Picard did have some opportunities, but not nearly as many as Kirk. However, Sisko did get quite a bit of his aggression out despite being in charge of DS9.
Sisko was in charge of a space station, so a lot of the time potential enemies came to *him*, instead of needing to go on an away mission to find them.
-- "Is that really true?"
"I just spent the last hour telling you to think for yourself! Didn't you hear anything I said?"
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday March 26 2022, @09:13AM
by Anonymous Coward
on Saturday March 26 2022, @09:13AM (#1232338)
Picard is also almost twice Kirk's age. If he lived in the US at the time the TNG pilot aired, he would have been able to retire on Social Security. Do people really wonder why the sexagenarian with designated muscle isn't picking fist fights with people all the time?
Most episodes were presented as action/adventure dramas, frequently including space battles or fist fights between the ship's crew and guest antagonists.
Gunsmoke had plenty of fist fights too as I recall.
Star Trek: TOS always seemed like a western in Space.
-- Joshua 1:9 "Be strong and of a good courage; be not afraid, neither be thou dismayed: for the Lord thy God is with thee"
I'm a bit late to the discussion here, but I think Picard doesn't get enough credit here.
Picard got into a lot of fights when he was younger. It's why he has an artificial heart. TNG examines this a bit in Samaritan Snare, which is a fairly unremarkable episode. They revisit it later in Tapestry, which you mentioned. Q allows Picard to change his past, and shows that his wild behavior at a younger age was necessary to shape the man he became. Picard had a lot more in common with Kirk when he was younger than we give him credit for. Picard needed some discipline to put his drive and determination to good use instead of brawling with Nausicaans.
The Best of Both Worlds also examines Picard's determination and willpower a bit. Admiral Hanson foreshadows this in response to Shelby commenting on Picard assisting the Borg, when he comments about Picard's drive and determination to pass upperclassmen at the end of the Academy marathon. Worf's line about the Borg having neither honor nor courage, and that being the Federation's greatest advantage, also foreshadows the ending. There's also a scene where the Borg are adding implants to Picard, and there's a tear that rolls down the side of his face, showing that he hasn't lost his humanity to the Borg. In the end, all of the technobabble solutions fail, with the Enterprise's weapons being useless and Data failing to access any of the Borg's critical systems. Troi says that Picard was speaking instead of Locutus, finding a way to resist the Borg's programming and tell Data how to destroy the Borg cube. The implication here is that Picard is particularly strong-willed and could resist the Borg where others wouldn't be able to. Resistance wasn't futile.
Or watch Chain of Command, where Picard spends a good portion of the two-part episode being tortured in a Cardassian interrogation chamber, resisting the brainwashing efforts. Even Picard had a breaking point, as he confided to Troi after being rescued. But he resisted the torture long enough to be rescued, even choosing to stay and be tortured when he believed the Cardassian interrogator was going to torture Crusher instead.
Picard is tough as nails, as tough as any of the captains. He doesn't show it with hand-to-hand combat, but there's nothing weak about him. He's just also very disciplined, as Spock notes when he says that Picard has a Vulcan-like quality about him.
(Score: 2) by Thexalon on Friday March 25 2022, @07:27PM (5 children)
Picard does that on several occasions. Not quite as good as Kirk in unarmed combat, but that's also in part because he doesn't end up in a position where bare-knuckle brawl is his best option the way Kirk regularly does (out-of-universe, the reason for this is that network executives wanted Kirk to do a lot of fighting, to the point where he'd end up in brawls even if there was no good plot reason for it). If I'm not mistaken, he's even tangled in hand-to-hand with Klingons and lived. He's also shown on many occasions that with weapons available, he's an effective and creative combatant. Heck, the episode "Tapestry" is all about how a willingness to engage in bare-knuckle brawling is key to who Picard is, and he was apparently doing well until the Klingon he was fighting pulled a knife.
A large part of the perceived difference is one of Federation doctrine: In Kirk's time, they routinely risk the captain in away teams and ground combat. In Picard's time, they consider captains to be high-value targets who should be left in the relative safety of the ship when possible and have the first officer normally leading away teams and ground combat. There are exceptions, of course, but that's the usual plan.
The only thing that stops a bad guy with a compiler is a good guy with a compiler.
(Score: 2) by stretch611 on Saturday March 26 2022, @04:25AM (1 child)
I pretty much agree with you as well... Picard did have some opportunities, but not nearly as many as Kirk. However, Sisko did get quite a bit of his aggression out despite being in charge of DS9.
As for Kirk kicking the ass of Klingons (Instead of Klingons just sticking there :P .) Klingons were wimpier then affected by a human retrovirus made with genes from Kahn and his group of augmented supermen. At least that is the current lore. which was introduced in Star Trek: Enterprise.
https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Klingon#Augment_virus [fandom.com]
... AND ...
Now with 5 covid vaccine shots/boosters altering my DNA :P
(Score: 2) by tangomargarine on Tuesday March 29 2022, @07:00PM
Sisko was in charge of a space station, so a lot of the time potential enemies came to *him*, instead of needing to go on an away mission to find them.
"Is that really true?" "I just spent the last hour telling you to think for yourself! Didn't you hear anything I said?"
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday March 26 2022, @09:13AM
Picard is also almost twice Kirk's age. If he lived in the US at the time the TNG pilot aired, he would have been able to retire on Social Security. Do people really wonder why the sexagenarian with designated muscle isn't picking fist fights with people all the time?
(Score: 2) by Freeman on Monday March 28 2022, @03:55PM
From an external point-of-view, TOS was created when Gunsmoke was a thing.
Regarding TOS: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_Trek:_The_Original_Series [wikipedia.org]
Gunsmoke had plenty of fist fights too as I recall.
Star Trek: TOS always seemed like a western in Space.
Joshua 1:9 "Be strong and of a good courage; be not afraid, neither be thou dismayed: for the Lord thy God is with thee"
(Score: 2) by dalek on Sunday April 10 2022, @10:43PM
I'm a bit late to the discussion here, but I think Picard doesn't get enough credit here.
Picard got into a lot of fights when he was younger. It's why he has an artificial heart. TNG examines this a bit in Samaritan Snare, which is a fairly unremarkable episode. They revisit it later in Tapestry, which you mentioned. Q allows Picard to change his past, and shows that his wild behavior at a younger age was necessary to shape the man he became. Picard had a lot more in common with Kirk when he was younger than we give him credit for. Picard needed some discipline to put his drive and determination to good use instead of brawling with Nausicaans.
The Best of Both Worlds also examines Picard's determination and willpower a bit. Admiral Hanson foreshadows this in response to Shelby commenting on Picard assisting the Borg, when he comments about Picard's drive and determination to pass upperclassmen at the end of the Academy marathon. Worf's line about the Borg having neither honor nor courage, and that being the Federation's greatest advantage, also foreshadows the ending. There's also a scene where the Borg are adding implants to Picard, and there's a tear that rolls down the side of his face, showing that he hasn't lost his humanity to the Borg. In the end, all of the technobabble solutions fail, with the Enterprise's weapons being useless and Data failing to access any of the Borg's critical systems. Troi says that Picard was speaking instead of Locutus, finding a way to resist the Borg's programming and tell Data how to destroy the Borg cube. The implication here is that Picard is particularly strong-willed and could resist the Borg where others wouldn't be able to. Resistance wasn't futile.
Or watch Chain of Command, where Picard spends a good portion of the two-part episode being tortured in a Cardassian interrogation chamber, resisting the brainwashing efforts. Even Picard had a breaking point, as he confided to Troi after being rescued. But he resisted the torture long enough to be rescued, even choosing to stay and be tortured when he believed the Cardassian interrogator was going to torture Crusher instead.
Picard is tough as nails, as tough as any of the captains. He doesn't show it with hand-to-hand combat, but there's nothing weak about him. He's just also very disciplined, as Spock notes when he says that Picard has a Vulcan-like quality about him.
THIS ACCOUNT IS PERMANENTLY CLOSED