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Longtime Debian contributor Tollef Fog Heen has announced his resignation from the Debian systemd maintainer team. His announcement states that "the load of the continued attacks is just becoming too much."
He has since written a detailed blog article surrounding the circumstances of his resignation. As he puts it,
I've been a DD for almost 14 years, I should be able to weather any storm, shouldn't I? It turns out that no, the mountain does get worn down by the rain. It's not a single hurtful comment here and there. There's a constant drum about this all being some sort of conspiracy and there are sometimes flares where people wish people involved in systemd would be run over by a bus or just accusations of incompetence.
This is yet another dramatic event affecting the Debian project in recent months. The adoption of systemd has been extremely controversial, even going so far as to result in calls for Debian to be forked. There have been other problems as of late, too, ranging from a serious bug breaking Wine just days before the Jessie freeze deadline, to the possibility of Debian GNU/kFreeBSD being dropped from Debian 8. And it was only just over a week ago that Joey Hess — another longtime Debian contributor — left the project, citing the "very unhealthy directions" that Debian has been led in lately.
Is the internal tension and strife caused by systemd about to tear the Debian project apart? Recent events such as the aforementioned have suggested that this is becoming more and more of a possibility. The repercussions of this drama will no doubt be felt wide and far, given Debian's own popularity, as well it forming the basis of other major Linux distros such as Ubuntu and Linux Mint.
(Score: 2) by GreatAuntAnesthesia on Monday November 17 2014, @01:07PM
OK, so I haven't been following this systemd thing very closely, certainly not from a technical perspective. Pretty much all I know is pieced together from what people have posted (often off-topic) on this site. At this point I don't feel well-enough informed to have a strong opinion pro or against systemd. Therefore I feel like I have a fairly neutral, outsider's perspective on it, despite being a linux (debian-based, no less) user myself.
Something that I've noticed is that the way people are behaving about this is really weird. It has turned into a rabidly partisan issue. Mud is being slung, spurious accusations thrown around, trolls are being raised and fed, people are posting off-topic and anon all over the damn place... The whole debate has a certain smell to it, and I couldn't quite put my finger on it until now.
It smells of astroturf.
The arguments and tactics in use here just make me think of the global warming debate, or universal healthcare, or any other topic where wealthy vested interest marshal legions of shills and useful idiots to try to shift public opinion.
So, just to add even more speculative shit to the storm, what if some party who shall not be named but who had an interest in seeing Linux implode, were to try use (or create?) the systemd debate to divide and fracture the community by fuelling a holy war?
Discuss.
(Score: 3, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Monday November 17 2014, @01:23PM
How the hell is there a "conspiracy"?
Systemd just happens to be bad software that has caused a lot of people a lot of problems. When people are put in such a position, they'll often speak out against what has been harming them.
At least two Debian maintainers have quit the project or reduced their involvement thanks to systemd. What, are you saying some mysterious cabal of Anonymous Coward commenters at SoylentNews have somehow pulled the puppet strings and caused this to happen?
And from just the last two weeks alone, we can find numerous reports from different people about various problems systemd has caused them:
Those are just problem reports I saw linked to from this topic today. I went and browsed the Debian mailing lists, and I saw other reports of problems with systemd, too.
Face it, systemd is bad software, it has been forced into Debian in a brutal way, and it has caused tons of problems for tons of people. It has earned every bit of dislike shown toward it.
(Score: 3, Interesting) by GreatAuntAnesthesia on Monday November 17 2014, @01:37PM
Like I say, I have no opinion on whether it's good or bad. I'm not saying that people against don't have a point.
I'm not talking about people's arguments, but the way they are making them. This isn't a rational technical discussion about a bit of software. It's a holy war potential to damage the Linux community.
Now, if someone wanted to damage the Linux community, and they saw a divisive topic arise, wouldn't it be in their interest to fan the flames a little using tried-and-true astroturfing techniques?
Call me a crazy conspiracy theorist if you like, but just remember how many crazy conspiracy theorists were proved right by Snowden.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday November 17 2014, @03:20PM
I, too, just don't see the conspiracy.
The ones harming the Linux community the most are those who are forcing systemd on unwilling victims. Things were just fine before they showed up.
But I don't think there's a conspiracy there, either. The pro-systemd crowd is just ignorant, inexperienced, delusional, or a mix of those three.
(Score: 2) by tangomargarine on Monday November 17 2014, @03:32PM
If you read back through Slashdot (and here, but probably less) articles, there have been a number of technical objections raised and dismissed. Unfortunately you'd have to wade through a lot of bile to find them :P
"Is that really true?" "I just spent the last hour telling you to think for yourself! Didn't you hear anything I said?"
(Score: 1) by PiMuNu on Monday November 17 2014, @02:14PM
Well if you aren't hiding something, why post as AC? Why are all the anti-systemd posts AC? Smells fishy to me.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday November 17 2014, @03:05PM
Maybe because creating an account and logging in is a dumb waste of time?
That's why I post as AC, at least. Maybe it is the same for the GP.
Besides, it's the message that matters, not who wrote it.
Systemd will always be terrible, regardless of the names on the comments.
Sorry, there's no conspiracy here. There are just a lot of different, independent people who have been wronged by systemd in one way or another, and aren't happy about it.
(Score: 1, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Monday November 17 2014, @03:42PM
Maybe because creating an account and logging in is a dumb waste of time?
I'll add to this (I'm not any of the other ACs) that the damn SoylentNews site logs me out every few days, and the login fields don't seem to auto-fill with Firefox, so staying logged in is just a pain in the ass. There would probably be a lot fewer AC posts if the system didn't make it so tedious to be logged in.
(Score: 2) by HiThere on Monday November 17 2014, @07:41PM
The trouble with being an AC is that you can't be told from the other ACs. E.g., I don't know that you aren't posting a reply to yourself.
OTOH, I'm very skeptical about systemd. There are lots of small reasons to distrust it, and nothing that I've ever heard about it makes me want to use it. (OTOH, I still prefer grub over grub2.)
Javascript is what you use to allow unknown third parties to run software you have no idea about on your computer.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday November 17 2014, @10:07PM
And how can the rest of us be assured that you aren't also the AC you just replied to?
It's trivially easy to create multiple accounts here, and registered members can post as AC easily, too.
Somebody used to constantly point out how that Torx (or whatever his name is) admitted to posting as AC just to enflame arguments. How do we know you aren't doing that, too? How do we know you aren't also posting here as Torx?
(Score: 2) by tangomargarine on Monday November 17 2014, @03:35PM
Why are all the anti-systemd posts AC?
They aren't. I've seen the better part of a dozen logged-in users identifying themselves as sysadmins and saying they don't like it. But that's on Slashdot.
Or did you mean "pro-systemd"? ;)
"Is that really true?" "I just spent the last hour telling you to think for yourself! Didn't you hear anything I said?"
(Score: 2) by arashi no garou on Monday November 17 2014, @08:58PM
Not AC. Not a fan of systemd. Not a *nix sysadmin either, at least not my day job. But I do build out and support GNU/Linux and BSD servers in my spare time, bare metal and hosted/virtualized, and I have a few *nix boxes at home serving various purposes.
I'm not a rabid systemd hater; I just don't think it's ever going to be a good thing for me. My specific issues with it, beyond the obvious political furor, are what most would consider minor things. I don't like the commands, they are redundant and unnecessarily long compared to traditional commands[1]. I don't like binary logs, the whole idea of that just screams "inaccessible during an emergency".
Call me when systemd is past the political shenanigans, and when it actually offers me something more than a ~2 second savings on boot times.
[1] Call me crazy, but "service foo start" is just easier to type and makes more sense than than "systemctl start foo.service". Even worse is changing runlevels; "telinit 3" is simple and quick, unlike "systemctl isolate runlevel3.target". It's like they added words just to be different, not caring that it's needlessly complicated and that much more to memorize. One of the tenets of *nix is do one thing and do it well. Why complicate things?
(Score: 2) by cafebabe on Tuesday November 18 2014, @05:23AM
Astro-turfing can occur whether an account is used or not. The only difference is that some posts are tied to one account but this does not imply that a single user accesses the account or that a single user has a coherent or honesty advanced position.
For the record, I'm against systemd. At best, it seems to be re-implemention of launchd, daemon-tools, djbdns and anything else a bunch of greenfield programmers can devise. Although they develop at a furious rate, they think they can solve difficult problems [cr.yp.to] in an afternoon but fail in obvious ways [soylentnews.org].
1702845791×2
(Score: 3, Insightful) by janrinok on Monday November 17 2014, @04:12PM
Unlike many of those who are actually criticizing systemd - I'm actually running it on 2 of my systems so that I can make my own assessment. I have not (yet) discovered any major benefits, it does the job that it claims it does, but so do all the other init systems in use. I am also running FreeBSD and PC-BSD on 2 other systems to learn what I can, and cannot, do with them that I can do with linux. I have found several shortcomings that will not affect many users but do cause me considerable annoyance. For example, I use PaleMoon because it has maintained the 'traditional' browser interface and runs all of my Firefox add-ons, but currently there is no PaleMoon version for BSD. However, such issues will not prevent BSD from being used by the majority of those who want to use it.
However, your comment is, I believe, inaccurate. One developer/maintainer has left Debian because of the Debian Constitution - nothing at all to do with the software itself. TFH is leaving because of the ridiculous nature of the 'debate' which is, I agree, more than he should have to put up with.
The vast majority (but certainly not all) of the systemd criticism is posted by ACs who offer no technical debate about the software but repeatedly point out the unsubstantiated claims that it will take over the world, is a tool for the NSA, or is something spawned by the devil himself. The personal invective and threats have no place in intelligent debate and emanate from the lower strata of web users.
This should be a site for intelligent conversation but, as an editor, I feel that a growing minority have brought all that is bad from whence they came and seem to think that repeating trivial and unsubstantiated claims here will make give them some form of 'technical street cred'. They are mistaken.
I do not see any reason to change to systemd, and I can think of many reasons why not. There will undoubtedly be a number of bugs waiting to bite the community as it goes into more widespread use - but that can be said of any software. But I would appreciate a more intelligent discussion of the software.
There is no need to take any of my comments personally - those to whom they are directed will know that they are the intended recipients of my criticism.
(Score: 2) by Pav on Monday November 17 2014, @05:01PM
What's wrong with making decisions not based on technical merit? Surely I'm not the only one who has been burnt time and again by projects that don't consider users when making decisions eg. Gnome and SSL-explorer particularly inconvenienced me personally. Yes, developers don't have to make users happy, but if I'm one of those users they don't consider then I think it's justified for me to consider my relationship to that project. Personally I have a bias towards GPL3, because in my experience projects so licensed tend to be more user focused (Gnome notwithstanding). As an aside systemd seems to be LGPL and sysvinit is GPL3. Upstart is some weird BSD-alike license tied to Ubuntu, so I can understand not choosing that.
(Score: 2, Interesting) by http on Monday November 17 2014, @06:10PM
You have missed a big point. It doesn't matter what percentage of the critics are AC. What does matter is that almost all of the criticisms are valid and most are unaddressed. That such badly built software is gaining traction in the second most important component of the linux ecosystem (init) is more than a lot baffling. When baffling things happen, people strive for explanations, and when nothing obvious explains, they get more creative. Some of the unsubstantiated claims would actually explain what's going on.
I, too, would appreciate a more intelligent discussion of the software - first and foremost, a design document. Given that we're dealing with Poettering here, I'm not holding my breath.
I browse at -1 when I have mod points. It's unsettling.
(Score: 2) by HiThere on Monday November 17 2014, @07:52PM
No. *MOST* of the criticisms are unverifiable. *SOME* of the criticisms appear valid. Some also appear dubious.
The real point, though, is that there has been essentially nothing posted that seems to me a valid reason to choose it. I don't really have an iron in this fire, as I've chosen to revert to Debian stable while waiting for the dust to settle. My bias is such that I have ensured (via update parameters) that I won't install systemd by accident. It's also true, however, that I ran an install of Ubuntu 14.04 on this system after Debian testing crashed with the install of systemd, and it worked without problems....and I saw no advantages. (But would I? I'm not much of a sysadmin, I only run my own system and that of my wife.)
For me the problem is that it's harder to understand what systemd is doing. I spent a lot of time over the years picking up managing sysv-init...I don't want to need to repeat that. (OTOH, this argument is often used by people who are using clunky systems when a sleek automated replacement comes out. I sure wouldn't want to go back to a hand cranked starter, even though it was easier to repair when it broke.)
So. I'm biased against systemd, but not strongly. I just haven't heard or experienced anything that would make me think it's a good decision.
Javascript is what you use to allow unknown third parties to run software you have no idea about on your computer.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday November 17 2014, @11:23PM
Cut the crap, son. This isn't reddit. We aren't fucking morons here.
The criticism against systemd is valid, and you know it.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday November 18 2014, @03:54AM
Exactly, this is why we can't have nice things. That sort of name-calling has no place in a technical discussion, and it raises the question of if you are a mean kid, or part of an astroturfing FUD campaign.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday November 18 2014, @04:15AM
There's nothing to discuss here. Systemd is full of technical flaws. Cry "conspiracy theory!!@!@!" all you want. None of that will change the fact that systemd is broken software that has no place in Debian, or any other serious Linux distro.
(Score: 2) by janrinok on Tuesday November 18 2014, @09:52AM
So please enlighten us all and explain what all the 'valid criticisms' are. I don't just want bald statements that cannot be substantiated, but an intelligent and technical discourse on the problems as you perceive them. I'm using it and it works - I don't see a reason to change to it, but that is simply a personal view and not 'valid criticism'.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday November 18 2014, @12:42PM
If you're discussing this matter, then you should already be aware of the criticism of systemd. If you aren't, then you should probably not participate in this discussion until you've done some research.
Since finding basic information like this is apparently a severe challenge for you, you can start here: http://boycottsystemd.org/ [boycottsystemd.org]
(Score: 2) by janrinok on Tuesday November 18 2014, @06:44PM
Thank you AC, you have made my point perfectly.
I didn't ask what other people dislike about it - I asked what the previous poster didn't like, why he didn't like it, and what he felt it stopped him from doing. I'm using it and I have no problems whatsoever with it. It works, I do not think that I will convert my other system over to it because I cannot see any advantages, but the binary logs are not a problem, the all-encompassing dependencies are not a problem. In fact, I haven't got any problems with it. Others may have - I haven't - and I asked for the previous poster's views. Not some regurgitated information about why someone else doesn't like it.
(Score: 2) by Arik on Saturday November 29 2014, @02:25PM
Even that really depends on the application. An electric starter is very convenient in my car, which carries it's own battery and charges said battery whenever I drive. It's true if the car sits for a very long time it might cause a problem, but that's remote, unlikely, and already 'covered' in the sense of having a battery charger handy as well. And it's true it's more complicated to fix when it breaks - but there are several stores nearby or online that will replace the whole unit for a reasonable price, so again that's covered in a sense ahead of time.
On the other hand an electric starter for the generator at the hunting cabin would be a very bad idea. There, I will stick to my hand crank, thank you very much, and I don't much care if hipsters mistake me for a luddite as a result.
If laughter is the best medicine, who are the best doctors?
(Score: 2) by janrinok on Monday November 17 2014, @08:21PM
Agreed, except that is not what I said. I referred to 'ACs who quote unsubstantiated claims without any technical support for their claims'. I don't have anything against ACs - but I deplore those who cannot discuss and justify their points without the discussion deteriorating into a slanging match. Unsubstantiated claims are just that - unsubstantiated. I might as well claim that the problem is caused by pixies for all the good it will contribute to the discussion. Having waded through the decision process that Debian have documented, I can see how the decision to adopt systemd was reached. I do believe that certain companies wield an unfair and unjustified influence on the committees but any one of us (if we have the appropriate technical abilities) is free to join the Debian team and to make our contribution and, maybe, end up on one of the committees instead of an existing member - but I don't expect that to happen in the near future. I am also of the opinion that the adoption of systemd was taking place too quickly and without consideration of what the users actually wanted.
I think, http, that we are both arguing from the same viewpoint here. As it stands at present, even Jessie when released will give you the option of choosing systemd or an alternative, but if you want to use Gnome then it has dependencies being built into it for systemd. Simply choose a different desktop.
(Score: 1) by fritsd on Monday November 17 2014, @11:32PM
I've tried to find a spec for "things the modern low-level userspace Linux environment is supposed to do" on freedesktop.org, but haven't found anything so far.
If any of you could post such a link here, it would help rational debate.
For example that PID 1 has to do the cgroups management, that is totally not clear to me. OK, only 1 process can do cgroups management (I'll accept that as given for now), why can't PID 1 fork a cgroupmanager process then? Let cgroupmanager do its
(complicated) thing, and if it crashes 30 virtual machines deep, the system doesn't go down because (uncomplicated) PID 1 is still around.
Are there more such "Highlander" processes??? Generic Linux things that need to start before the system-specific /etc/init.d/rc is run?
(Score: 2) by DeathMonkey on Monday November 17 2014, @06:38PM
How the hell is there a "conspiracy"?
Try this search [google.com]. My favorite headline is "Systemd = Jewish NSA/Mossad Backdoor - progrider.org."
This was covered on Soylent as well: Link [soylentnews.org]
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday November 18 2014, @03:50AM
When you say the words, "bad problems," you mean actual technical problems? Or things like, "I don't like the name of the author," or "Not Invented Here," or "it reminds me of emacs?"
Of the technical accusations I read, they all seem to be debunked. ;)
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday November 18 2014, @01:01PM
None of the technical problems listed at http://boycottsystemd.org/ [boycottsystemd.org] have been debunked. They're all totally unacceptable, and still present.
(Score: 1) by khallow on Monday November 17 2014, @02:14PM
The arguments and tactics in use here just make me think of the global warming debate, or universal healthcare, or any other topic where wealthy vested interest marshal legions of shills and useful idiots to try to shift public opinion.
So "astroturf" works when it has massive public support? I think the problem here is your perception of things.
(Score: 2) by tangomargarine on Monday November 17 2014, @03:30PM
It has turned into a rabidly partisan issue.
Yeah, that's what generally happens when neither side want to compromise. The anti- crowd wants to take it out back and shoot it; the pro- crowd wants to force everyone to use it.
"Is that really true?" "I just spent the last hour telling you to think for yourself! Didn't you hear anything I said?"
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday November 18 2014, @03:57AM
Nobody is trying to force anybody to use it. If they don't like it, they can fork whatever distro they like whose paid professionals chose it.
It is the other way around. Those of us who like it and like the progress are being told we shouldn't be allowed to have it, even when we've chosen a distro that uses it.
There is no reason to whine and complain about it. Just choose something that doesn't use it, and be done with it forever. There is NO UTILITY AT ALL in trying to take it away from those who use it, just because you want to use their distro, but with your own favorite choices. You can do that already by forking.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday November 18 2014, @04:09AM
Systemd does not belong in Debian.
If you really want systemd, use a shitty distro like Fedora.
Everyone is happy that way.
Debian users get a stable, reliable system that just works.
Fedora users get the shitty, hype-driven system they so badly desire.
(Score: 3, Insightful) by jmorris on Monday November 17 2014, @04:54PM
I do think there is a distinct stench of astroturf but it isn't the primary issue. The problem is there are two arguments running in parallel and co-mingling.
Is systemd a viable technical project and does it actually work or is it likely to in the near future?
All of the arguing about bugs and Pottering's history of leaving smoking wreckage in his wake are tied to this question. It is not the most interesting of the arguments. Bugs can be fixed, Pottering will move on to wrecking something else eventually. So if you agree with the goal, the technical issues revolve more around whether systemd is ready yet, so even the most extreme views against systemd in this camp would say to wait a few years and let it prove itself but it is only a question of when the change happens.
The other argument is over whether systemd is a good idea in the first place.
By systemd I mean the whole Pottering "UNIX Hater's Club" project of systemd as an OS in userspace, absorbing everything in its path. It means the adoption of an overly complex port of Service Manager and Event Logger, burying everything under layers of virtualization and sandboxing to get security instead of fixing the damned bugs in the first place at the price of making the internals so complex that new admins will require years to understand what is actually happening instead of a month or two.. which will have its own security implications. It means objecting to the whole idea of tossing POSIX and the essentially the whole gnu-utils package and the other UNIX classics like grep, etc. In short, do we want a free Windows or a UNIX?
Note that this is a cultural question. This is why the Debian TC had so most strife over it and their final verdict had almost zero impact on the NO side. Because they were trying to solve a problem outside their mandate.
You can't compromise on this issue, you can split the difference. It is a fork in the road, taking one precludes the possibility of the other. There is going to be a fork, the only question is whether enough people realize it in time to avoid a lot more developers getting burned out by the fighting.
(Score: 2, Informative) by fritsd on Monday November 17 2014, @06:00PM
Very well put; I think the crux is whether systemd is a good idea in the first place (your second argument).
It seems to me that systemd is written by geniuses, but not written *for* common-as-muck sysadmins who use Linux in production, instead for some mythical average desktop use case.
Try to read some of the comments on http://debianfork.org/ [debianfork.org] (scroll down; about 50% rants, 50% complaints of people who sound like real actual sysadmins, and a website that's easy to read for the 60+ sysadmin with poor eyesight)
I think the best comment there (can't attribute; the author is not shown) is:
"There is a debate whether to replace legacy init-systems. It is a good
debate, and imho a new init system is very due.
What should have been done (*):
1.) define interfaces/apis for a new init system by the linux
community/process
2.) standardaize these interface
3.) have somebody provide a reference implementation and
reference-test-suite (an init-system is missing critical, I cannot debug
umteenth servers when they fail initing)
what has been done:
1.) a reference implementation has been pooped into existence with
interfaces/apis 'designed' on the fly
2.) this mix of standards/implemention has then been pushed and force-fed
to the community
3.) now the community is pissed
The discussion about whether or not systemd must be used is moot. If
standards exist, systemd can be replaced. If not, like we have now, it
cannot."
(Score: 2) by melikamp on Monday November 17 2014, @08:50PM
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday November 18 2014, @03:59AM
It is just a bunch of nastiness.
Of course it is "viable" it is already in widespread use. Most linux users are running it already, without any problems. Slandering the author is silly, his past projects that get name-called are the ones that won on technical merits, fixed the bugs, and are still in use. Still in use. Still in use. That is not failed. That is succeeded. D'oh!
(Score: 1) by jmorris on Tuesday November 18 2014, @07:37AM
No. I'm typing this on a Thinkpad running F20. PulseAudio is f*ck*d. It has been f*ck*d for years and years on pretty much every platform I have had the misfortune to use it.... which because RH and the GNOMEs rammed it down everyone's throat is almost everywhere; exactly like systemd. Years have passed and I'm sick and damned tired of listening to excuses for that useless piece of crap that you can't get rid of without a week of intense effort. Just because someone might have a bluetooth headset and want to 'seamlessly' (yea, that will be the day) transition the stream between their headset and the speakers we have all had to suffer broken audio for almost a decade now.
Drop onto the docking station, a couple of RANDOM outputs will mute themselves. Suspend and guess what happens? Undock and guess what happens. Launch the PulseAudio Graphic EQ plugin and GUESS WHAT HAPPENS! While you could attribute the dock and power management related ones to potential kernel bugs, the EQ doing exactly the same thing kinda gives the game away.
Better, since I ditched Gnome3 for Mate there isn't even a graphical tool remaining (unsure if there is one in Gnome but there migh) that can even manipulate the actual hardware volume controls, only pulse. All I have found is alsamixer in a terminal window. (Although the GUI alsamixer would be viable too with the -c0 switch... since it has no graphical way to select the card to control and defaults to pulse.)
No, I will never allow Pulse, Networkmanager or systemd near a production server. Never. When Debian becomes unusable I'll look for a fork. If there isn't one Slackware. Should it too fall to the forces of darkness BSD will always be there.
Because I'm in both dissenting camps. systemd is a bad idea that isn't likely to ever work reliably and securely. Or at least not work in the twenty or so years I have left before retirement.