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posted by janrinok on Wednesday November 19 2014, @11:25AM   Printer-friendly
from the I-hope-we-don't-regret-this dept.

Ian Jackson's general resolution to prevent init system coupling has failed to pass, the majority vote deciding that the resolution is unnecessary. This means that not only will Debian's default init be systemd, but packages will not be required to support other init systems. Presumably, this means that using other init systems on Debian (without using systemd as a base) will not be possible without major workarounds, or possibly at all. It also leaves the future of Debian projects such as kFreeBSD unclear, as systemd is linux specific.

The vote results can be found here

The winners are:

Option 4 "General Resolution is not required"

 
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  • (Score: 4, Informative) by LookIntoTheFuture on Wednesday November 19 2014, @11:35AM

    by LookIntoTheFuture (462) on Wednesday November 19 2014, @11:35AM (#117592)
    Starting Score:    1  point
    Moderation   +2  
       Informative=2, Total=2
    Extra 'Informative' Modifier   0  
    Karma-Bonus Modifier   +1  

    Total Score:   4  
  • (Score: 3, Insightful) by c0lo on Wednesday November 19 2014, @12:01PM

    by c0lo (156) on Wednesday November 19 2014, @12:01PM (#117600) Journal

    Call me socially-inept, but for the life of my I don't get how come a technical issue got to the point of asking for "compassion" or "empathy"?

    Look, it's a technical problem with possible multiple solutions, supposedly not a clear "best solution" exists.
    Of course I'd favour one, based on my experience but until I convinced the others, it's a matter of opinion.
    Now, suppose it is not my favourite solution solution didn't win and it was another one that was picked. Then, I'd have two fair/professional choices, either:

    1. the chosen solution is acceptable to me and I can professionally contribute; or
    2. I really think the chosen solution is crappy (from the technical point of view).
      In this case, I must admit to myself I failed to convince others but they do have the right to go forward with what they think is right and I do have the right to step out of their way (my justification: my life is too short to crap on it. If I don't believe in the picked solution, it is very likely I'm not the best contributor: it's only fair to let others try their best and wish them "Good luck, I think you'll need it")

    Within the professional approach above, where the hell "compassion" or "empathy" would find their place?

    --
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoFiw2jMy-0
    • (Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday November 19 2014, @01:00PM

      by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday November 19 2014, @01:00PM (#117618)

      It's a hipster/Millennial thing.

      Many of them are a bunch of soft pansies who feel the need to bring "social justice" into absolutely everything.

      They're very sensitive people, who can't take any sort of criticism, even when it's perfectly valid. Somehow they think that critiquing their work is a personal attack upon them.

      Everything is supposedly about "emotion" and "empathy" and "compassion" and "tolerance" to them.

      This is, obviously, an absolutely terrible state of mind to have when working with technology. It clouds the ability to make sane, sensible technical decisions. It interferes with objective analysis of the pros and cons of technology. It leads to a disaster like systemd in Debian, the decline of Firefox, and everything about the total mishap that is GNOME 3.

      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday November 19 2014, @01:25PM

        by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday November 19 2014, @01:25PM (#117633)

        Everything is supposedly about "emotion" and "empathy" and "compassion" and "tolerance" to them.

        This is, obviously, an absolutely terrible state of mind to have when working with technology.

        well, the systemd devs have been telling users to fuck off, so in light of your revelations you should build a bridge and get the fuck over it

        moron

        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday November 19 2014, @01:29PM

          by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday November 19 2014, @01:29PM (#117639)

          well, the systemd devs have been telling users to fuck off, so in light of your revelations you should build a bridge and get the fuck over it

          I would, if that bridge allows me to stay far far away from them.

      • (Score: 2) by c0lo on Wednesday November 19 2014, @01:25PM

        by c0lo (156) on Wednesday November 19 2014, @01:25PM (#117634) Journal

        It's a hipster/Millennial thing.[...]

        The thought you may be right made my shudder.

        --
        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoFiw2jMy-0
        • (Score: 3, Insightful) by Thexalon on Wednesday November 19 2014, @02:20PM

          by Thexalon (636) on Wednesday November 19 2014, @02:20PM (#117665)

          Don't worry, he's not. Some people falsely equate embracing "Don't be a dick" as a moral standard with weakness and over-sensitivity. Also, GP seems to be equating not discriminating against people based on inborn traits like gender identity, race, and sexual orientation with being unwilling to criticize stupid ideas or shoddy work for being stupid and shoddy.

          --
          Alcohol makes the world go round ... and round and round.
          • (Score: 2) by c0lo on Thursday November 20 2014, @06:52AM

            by c0lo (156) on Thursday November 20 2014, @06:52AM (#118024) Journal

            Some people falsely equate embracing "Don't be a dick" as a moral standard with weakness and over-sensitivity.

            This is why I like better "live and let live" as a moral compass - it is less prone to misinterpretation and has the "Don't be a dick" as a consequence.

            --
            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoFiw2jMy-0
            • (Score: 2) by Thexalon on Thursday November 20 2014, @01:26PM

              by Thexalon (636) on Thursday November 20 2014, @01:26PM (#118096)

              There's an important difference between "Don't be a dick" and "Live and let live": Let's say you observe somebody getting beaten on the sidewalk. "Don't be a dick" implies you should do something to improve the situation (because it's a dick move to ignore others' suffering). "Live and let live" implies that you shouldn't (because that would be interfering with someone else's dispute).

              --
              Alcohol makes the world go round ... and round and round.
    • (Score: 2) by HiThere on Wednesday November 19 2014, @09:55PM

      by HiThere (866) on Wednesday November 19 2014, @09:55PM (#117865) Journal

      When people are emotionally committed to something, anything, they may be disappointed. Being disappointed makes people unhappy. If you need to work with someone who is unhappy, it assists you to realize that they are unhappy. This is called being empathetic. The reason that they are unhappy is nearly irrelevant. Compassion is reasonable is you like, or want to like, that person even if you find their reason for being unhappy unreasonable.

      If you don't understand that, then I will be willing to call you socially inept.

      --
      Javascript is what you use to allow unknown third parties to run software you have no idea about on your computer.
      • (Score: 2) by c0lo on Wednesday November 19 2014, @10:43PM

        by c0lo (156) on Wednesday November 19 2014, @10:43PM (#117880) Journal

        Being disappointed makes people unhappy.

        Doesn't happen to me, the two feelings are very loosely coupled.

        If you need to work with someone who is unhappy, it assists you to realize that they are unhappy.

        If the work is what makes people unhappy, then what aren't they stop doing it? Especially in open-source, when it's not about earning your living.

        The reason that they are unhappy is nearly irrelevant. Compassion is reasonable is you like, or want to like, that person even if you find their reason for being unhappy unreasonable.

        I'm lost: for me the reason is highly relevant - otherwise, how can I help them if I can?
        Surely, I can empathize with them. But if the work that was agreed makes them unhappy, then the agreement takes precedence over their feeling - the only release they will ever get is the release from the responsibility of the agreed work.

        --
        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoFiw2jMy-0
    • (Score: 1) by jmorris on Wednesday November 19 2014, @11:52PM

      by jmorris (4844) on Wednesday November 19 2014, @11:52PM (#117910)

      how come a technical issue got to the point of

      There is your problem. It isn't a technical issue, it is a culture problem.

      The 'Linux' community has a problem; it was too open and by allowing people who disagree with the UNIX philosophy equal standing to commit code and otherwise set policy we have simply been outvoted by the Windows refugees.

      Something the *BSD communities should be thinking deeply on about now as a lot of refugees are about to be fleeing Linux. Many are UNIX folk who won't be a problem but many are far too open to things the more hardcore *BSD types abhor and if unchecked will begin to overwhelm the much smaller *BSD community. Start discussing the problem NOW while there is time.

      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday November 20 2014, @12:51AM

        by Anonymous Coward on Thursday November 20 2014, @12:51AM (#117926)

        This is very true. If there's even the slightest indication that somebody might be a hipster, they need to be excluded from any open source project. It's worth losing out on some good code if it means avoiding the risk that somebody might infect an open source project with the systemd mentality, or worse, bring along their social justice warrior style of political bullshit. As we've seen with Debian, that kind of shit will kill even the most vibrant of open source projects. FreeBSD is just as vulnerable as Debian was, as far as I'm concerned.

        • (Score: 2) by c0lo on Thursday November 20 2014, @02:43AM

          by c0lo (156) on Thursday November 20 2014, @02:43AM (#117959) Journal

          FreeBSD is just as vulnerable as Debian was

          [Citation needed].
          No, seriously this time, not just the use of a meme for funny/trolling purposes.
          I'm just trying to make my mind which of the *BSD distros I should try first. Any information on the risk if a "systemd-like issue repeat" factors heavily in my decision.
          Thanks in advance.

          --
          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoFiw2jMy-0
          • (Score: 1) by jmorris on Thursday November 20 2014, @03:00AM

            by jmorris (4844) on Thursday November 20 2014, @03:00AM (#117968)

            Look at all of the BSDs and decide which one you like. Odds are a lot of the refugees will make the same choice and considering the size difference between the Windows refugees and the Linux community is probably on the order of the size of the Linux refugees vs that BSD...

            Of course the BSD people do have some defenses, they are Cathedral Builders and thus do not allow untrusted outsiders to just walk in and start pushing patches into their trees. Now we learn the value of the other side of that argument. ESR was right that the bazaar can build faster but it proved very vulnerable to a few corporate backed folks who could dedicate full time effort to taking over a project and making it unrecognizable to the original builders. Will be curious to see whether when this all shakes out if he revises his CatB document or issues a new screed.

      • (Score: 2) by cafebabe on Thursday November 20 2014, @03:21AM

        by cafebabe (894) on Thursday November 20 2014, @03:21AM (#117976) Journal

        The 'Linux' community has a problem; it was too open and by allowing people who disagree with the UNIX philosophy equal standing to commit code and otherwise set policy we have simply been outvoted by the Windows refugees.

        Windows is dying and Linux is the refuge for Windows users. Through ignorance and expectation, Linux has gained some of the Windows cruft.

        --
        1702845791×2
        • (Score: 1) by jmorris on Thursday November 20 2014, @04:20AM

          by jmorris (4844) on Thursday November 20 2014, @04:20AM (#117991)

          Windows may (or may not) now actually be dying but for over a decade Linux has been taking in refugees who could no longer stand the suckage of Windows. However they brought most of their Windows mindset with them, which is why svchost^Wsystemd is seen as a welcome advance. They just want a Windows that doesn't suck, a good many couldn't even care less about whether it is Free or not.

          At the risk of going severely offtopic, it is much the same as the political situation in States like CO. People flee the general stupidity in CA and the first thing they do is register to vote and start voting for the exact same policies they ran away from the consequences of. The problem was in them so there is no running away; they just spread the mental disease.

          In both cases they reflexively agree with the underlying premise while seeing that the result stinks. So they want to change the result without reexamining the premise, preferring to believe it was just a bad implementation because that is easier; self reflection and change being far harder than blaming somebody else. The mental model of Windows can't be fixed by having 'better' people do it. And Pottering ain't better people anyway.

          But this is why most reviews is from the p.o.v. of a Windows user and the grading is on the extent a Linux distro is indistinguishable from Windows. It was why the GNOMEs tried to beat Microsoft to upending the desktop into a tablet for example. So long as being 'as good as Windows (or Mac)' is the only quality metric there is no opportunity to be better. Or to realize we already ARE better, and that is why they migrated in the first place; but we are also different. UNIX will still be here long after both PotteringOS and Windows are gone.

          • (Score: 2) by cafebabe on Thursday November 20 2014, @05:30AM

            by cafebabe (894) on Thursday November 20 2014, @05:30AM (#118001) Journal

            They just want a Windows that doesn't suck, a good many couldn't even care less about whether it is Free or not.

            If you expose users to multiple operating systems, few prefer Windows. However, the ones who do want a version of Windows which costs $0, never crashes and works with all of their bargain bin hardware. They haven't found this solution but they are locusts who will depart when they find a closer fit. Support this market at your peril.

            At the risk of going severely offtopic, it is much the same as the political situation in States like CO. People flee the general stupidity in CA and the first thing they do is register to vote and start voting for the exact same policies they ran away from the consequences of. The problem was in them so there is no running away; they just spread the mental disease.

            I understand. Worryingly, people may exacerbate a problem by either repeating familiar behavior or by becoming the other side of the problem. For example, a friend in London witnessed a man say "There's too many foreigners in London. I'm moving to Spain." And you just know this person is going to be *exactly* the type of immigrant of which he complains. (Never learns local customs. Never learns the local language. Never eats native food. Never integrates.) Sometimes, just sometimes, there are binary positions in a debate and "If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem."

            But this is why most reviews is from the p.o.v. of a Windows user and the grading is on the extent a Linux distro is indistinguishable from Windows.

            We could have implemented anything. Instead we got Windows Explorer clones, Microsoft Office clones, Photoshop clones and mediocre Windows binary support. The people writing these clones are lauded but Windows users look upon them as cheap imitations. Personally, I am overwhelmed with the features of OpenOffice but casual users don't appreciate that the implementation is more akin to ClarisWorks with more shared code and more consistent behavior. They just see an antiquated version of Word with different icons and a slow spreadsheet. (Unfortunately, the latter is not an easy fix because Microsoft Excel is a separate binary written in a bespoke version of C++ for the specific purpose of achieving performance targets.)

            --
            1702845791×2
  • (Score: 2) by jbernardo on Wednesday November 19 2014, @12:54PM

    by jbernardo (300) on Wednesday November 19 2014, @12:54PM (#117615)

    Too late, the cultists are already screaming for Ian Jackson's head.

    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday November 20 2014, @03:07PM

      by Anonymous Coward on Thursday November 20 2014, @03:07PM (#118120)

      Dumbass morons. One thing that distinguishes Debian from all other distros, technically, was dpkg/apt. Who brought that to Debian? Ian Jackson.

      Debian deserves either overhaul or slow painful death.

  • (Score: 2) by jackb_guppy on Wednesday November 19 2014, @01:16PM

    by jackb_guppy (3560) on Wednesday November 19 2014, @01:16PM (#117626)

    The post is too late.

    Before voting the call of compassion and understanding is required. Too fully understand the other views, so you can speak for them they are not present. That is requirement for a team to have. Only understanding the FULL view can compromise exist and good results come of it.

    Main stream "Linux" is now no longer inclusive. For me, I am off to BSD or maybe LFS to see, if they are still inclusive. An example, old hardware is not longer "supported". The gcc compiler require over 100MB non-swappable memory to run, so builds fail on old hardware / small systems.

    It was good run.

    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday November 19 2014, @01:22PM

      by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday November 19 2014, @01:22PM (#117631)

      I would like to see the *BSD leadership teams make official statements about systemd now.

      They could make their platforms far more appealing if they come out now and take a very resolute stand against systemd.

      The *BSDs, and especially FreeBSD, are going to gain a lot of users once Debian 8 is out, and systemd is ruining workstations and servers left and right.

      Knowing that the *BSDs will not tolerate systemd or systemd-like approaches will bring certainty to some victims who have just faced very uncertain times, and may just help keep away the deviants who have destroyed Debian so swiftly.

      • (Score: 3, Informative) by ticho on Wednesday November 19 2014, @01:37PM

        by ticho (89) on Wednesday November 19 2014, @01:37PM (#117647) Homepage Journal

        Why would they have to make such statement? Systemd is linux-only software, the authors have repeatedly said so. *BSD saying they do not plan to support it would be like saying they do not plan to support svchost.exe from Windows.

        • (Score: 2) by cafebabe on Wednesday November 19 2014, @05:20PM

          by cafebabe (894) on Wednesday November 19 2014, @05:20PM (#117749) Journal

          That is an apt comparison.

          --
          1702845791×2
        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday November 19 2014, @06:43PM

          by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday November 19 2014, @06:43PM (#117792)

          I, too, think it would be good to announce. I don't think that anyone would have predicted the current Debian debacle a year ago. But here we are. If it could happen to Debian, it could happen to FreeBSD, even if it is less likely and would take more work. With FreeBSD becoming the replacement for Debian for many users and businesses, it would be good to know that systemd will be defended against at all costs.