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posted by
janrinok
on Wednesday November 19 2014, @11:25AM
from the I-hope-we-don't-regret-this dept.
from the I-hope-we-don't-regret-this dept.
Ian Jackson's general resolution to prevent init system coupling has failed to pass, the majority vote deciding that the resolution is unnecessary. This means that not only will Debian's default init be systemd, but packages will not be required to support other init systems. Presumably, this means that using other init systems on Debian (without using systemd as a base) will not be possible without major workarounds, or possibly at all. It also leaves the future of Debian projects such as kFreeBSD unclear, as systemd is linux specific.
The vote results can be found here
The winners are:
Option 4 "General Resolution is not required"
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Debian General Resolution to Prevent Init System Coupling Fails to Pass
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I'll burn my books.
-- Christopher Marlowe
(Score: 2) by fnj on Wednesday November 19 2014, @02:30PM
To all the people flying off the handle: I understand the frustration, (I in fact share it), but I'm going to set all that aside and ask: are you sure this means what you think it means?
One way to interpret the decision is to see it as "WTF? How is this even a problem?". Let me explain just a tad. For the sysadmin crowd at the center of controversy, Debian is a server OS. Now the only packages that depend on systemd are a bunch of cruft that nobody of competence would install on a server in the first place. Gnome is the only one I can think of at the moment. If you're not going to install Gnome, just customize your installation to remove systemd and substitute the init system of your choice. Presto. You're cooking with gas.
Now, this sidesteps the long term "creeping tentacles" issue, and correct me if I'm wrong, but as of right now, and as of Debian 8, how does the present situation mandate that in order to avoid systemd, anybody HAS to jump ship NOW? Yes, systemd avoiders will have to develop the exact procedure to keep systemd out, and yes, that may become more and more difficult with time as systemd-itis spreads its tentacles into linux. Everybody has to make their own decision what to do and when to do it long term. But why right now?
I have no issue with anyone abandoning Debian (and linux!) because of the direction it's drifting, but as I understand it, that is at this time more of a statement of principle than an actual necessity.
(Score: 2) by cockroach on Wednesday November 19 2014, @03:14PM
I've been thinking the same thing but eventually realized that rather than investing my time into a project which doesn't share my ideals (and permanently hacking my way around said project's idea of an init system) I would probably be happier if I just went somewhere else. There are alternatives and I think it makes sense to support them.
(Score: 2) by tangomargarine on Wednesday November 19 2014, @04:08PM
I'm going to go out on a limb and say maybe you've switched from Firefox to Pale Moon? (genuinely curious)
That was a pretty direct comparison I saw. I had a list of all the options to un-set in about:config, until the point where I realized you can't disable Australis via that route even (which had seemed to be a core Firefox set-in-stone guideline, that there was nothing you couldn't turn off via a:c). And yes, there's Classic Theme Restorer, but that isn't a complete solution either, so why not just leave for the sane-by-default option.
"Is that really true?" "I just spent the last hour telling you to think for yourself! Didn't you hear anything I said?"
(Score: 2) by cockroach on Wednesday November 19 2014, @04:17PM
Heh, I'm afraid I was speaking of Debian. I haven't tried Pale Moon yet, any good? I.e. does it sync, run on Linux / the BSDs etc?
(Score: 2) by tangomargarine on Wednesday November 19 2014, @04:49PM
They have an "official unofficial" build for Linux, but I think the update process may be semi-manual on Linux.
Haven't used sync myself so can't say on that front.
"Is that really true?" "I just spent the last hour telling you to think for yourself! Didn't you hear anything I said?"
(Score: 1) by Fauxlosopher on Wednesday November 19 2014, @03:24PM
To turn your question around as an answer: why must those who see systemd as a sinking ship stick around? If systemd is seen as a critical flaw, then why spend any more time than necessary with an organization that does not share your goals?
The more admins that jump ship now, the more options and support for the same may be available later.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday November 19 2014, @06:53PM
Debian worked superbly for decades without systemd.
It's only within the past year that systemd has come along, and completely ruined Debian.
Systemd is the problem. It is just a really big bug, basically. If systemd is removed, then the bug is fixed, and everything is good again.
Systemd and its supporters should obviously be the ones to leave. They should move to using Fedora instead, and leave Debian alone.
(Score: 1) by Fauxlosopher on Thursday November 20 2014, @08:38AM
I agree that systemd is the problem, and that up until recently, Debian worked just fine. (Slackware and Debian are the two distros I've chosen to use most often.)
The progression of events, including this most recent vote, appear to suggest that those who are actually holding Debian's reins do not agree with us, and that they desire that systemd be included in Debian going forward. The risk that I and others see is that systemd will soon cease to be an option, and will become mandatory. Combined with questionable-at-best design decisions such as binary logs, the justification offered to replace the entire init system is completely farsical. First-time init script setup admittedly can be a bit crufty in certain situations, but in those same situations, almost the entirety of the initial system configuration could be considered crufty - for that reason, others hire people like myself to take care of those systems for them, and for anyone with a modicum of familirarity with Linux basics, init script customization is so far down the list of annoyances as to not even register on the radar.
To administrative "end users" like myself, systemd came out of nowhere to solve a problem that didn't exist and also created tremendous uncertainty in the process.
Thus, the only obvious solution for those in my situation is to jettison Debian now, and focus on traditionalist Linux distributions... and/or investigate the BSDs.
(Score: 2) by jackb_guppy on Wednesday November 19 2014, @06:12PM
I am currently living with system lite in Ubuntu. Daily, I have 8 to 9 system errors in that wonderful thing. Been reporting bugs for months, to no avail. I am not going to stay on a broken function. I can not get it out, Ubuntu will not allow it. I was looking to go to Debain to get out of these and have a similar system, since Ubuntu was based on Debain. Now, Debian will have this same broken systemd install. I am done with this branch of Linux.
I am also part of another distro, IPCop a firewall distro. No GUI. We are based on LFS. I am looking at going LFS, since Gentoo is also now broken from my home use (will not build anymore on 128MB system). So it is LFS or BSD. Prefer LFS since it is still in my wheel house. But I like the long term support and group sprit of large distro, so 'BSD maybe a the better way to go.
(Score: 2) by Arik on Wednesday November 19 2014, @06:29PM
If laughter is the best medicine, who are the best doctors?
(Score: 2) by arashi no garou on Wednesday November 19 2014, @07:32PM
I wholeheartedly second this. Slackware takes getting used to as there is zero dependency resolution, but (at least for me) that's a blessing in disguise as for one thing, I only end up with the packages I truly need, and two, I've learned a ton over the years about how GNU/Linux really works under the hood thanks to it. I've taken what I learned exploring Slackware and applied it to other distros like Arch and Debian, to fix issues there that would otherwise have required a lot of search-and-try sessions.
As for installing software and libraries, you have the choice of using Slackware binary packages, rolling your own packages via Slackbuilds (highly recommended, and can be semi-automated via sbopkg), using a third party package manager like slapt-get which emulates Debian's apt system, or building and installing from source (also highly recommended, especially if you are interested in tweaking or patching the code before compiling/installing, or if there isn't an existing Slackbuild for that program).
I don't know if Slackware will ever cave to the systemd cabal, but I highly doubt it. And if they ever do, well you can take a lot of what you learn in Slackware and apply it to LFS, Gentoo, and *BSD.
(Score: 2) by Arik on Wednesday November 19 2014, @07:52PM
I also agree it seems highly unlike Mr Volkerding will ever package systemd. He was way ahead of the crowd in saying no to GNOME and PAM and we thank him for it.
If laughter is the best medicine, who are the best doctors?
(Score: 2) by RedBear on Thursday November 20 2014, @04:39AM
If you know the captain of the boat you're on just suddenly decided to change course and will end up eventually arriving at a destination you have no interest in going to, it's a hell of a lot easier to jump ship when it's still at the dock, or just about to leave the harbor. You describe in this paragraph the very reason for leaving Debian right now.
The biggest problem with systemd is that it continues to be a giant, two-handed up-yours to what were some of the most zealous and talented Linux advocates and developers. Whether or not it is technically superior to anything no longer matters. It must be abandoned, or those who dislike it will simply keep abandoning Linux wholesale. Seems the latter is what will be the primary outcome of this upheaval.
¯\_ʕ◔.◔ʔ_/¯ LOL. I dunno. I'm just a bear.
... Peace out. Got bear stuff to do. 彡ʕ⌐■.■ʔ