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posted by
janrinok
on Wednesday November 19 2014, @11:25AM
from the I-hope-we-don't-regret-this dept.
from the I-hope-we-don't-regret-this dept.
Ian Jackson's general resolution to prevent init system coupling has failed to pass, the majority vote deciding that the resolution is unnecessary. This means that not only will Debian's default init be systemd, but packages will not be required to support other init systems. Presumably, this means that using other init systems on Debian (without using systemd as a base) will not be possible without major workarounds, or possibly at all. It also leaves the future of Debian projects such as kFreeBSD unclear, as systemd is linux specific.
The vote results can be found here
The winners are:
Option 4 "General Resolution is not required"
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Debian General Resolution to Prevent Init System Coupling Fails to Pass
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There's no such thing as an original sin.
-- Elvis Costello
(Score: 3, Insightful) by c0lo on Wednesday November 19 2014, @12:01PM
Call me socially-inept, but for the life of my I don't get how come a technical issue got to the point of asking for "compassion" or "empathy"?
Look, it's a technical problem with possible multiple solutions, supposedly not a clear "best solution" exists.
Of course I'd favour one, based on my experience but until I convinced the others, it's a matter of opinion.
Now, suppose it is not my favourite solution solution didn't win and it was another one that was picked. Then, I'd have two fair/professional choices, either:
In this case, I must admit to myself I failed to convince others but they do have the right to go forward with what they think is right and I do have the right to step out of their way (my justification: my life is too short to crap on it. If I don't believe in the picked solution, it is very likely I'm not the best contributor: it's only fair to let others try their best and wish them "Good luck, I think you'll need it")
Within the professional approach above, where the hell "compassion" or "empathy" would find their place?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoFiw2jMy-0 https://soylentnews.org/~MichaelDavidCrawford
(Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday November 19 2014, @01:00PM
It's a hipster/Millennial thing.
Many of them are a bunch of soft pansies who feel the need to bring "social justice" into absolutely everything.
They're very sensitive people, who can't take any sort of criticism, even when it's perfectly valid. Somehow they think that critiquing their work is a personal attack upon them.
Everything is supposedly about "emotion" and "empathy" and "compassion" and "tolerance" to them.
This is, obviously, an absolutely terrible state of mind to have when working with technology. It clouds the ability to make sane, sensible technical decisions. It interferes with objective analysis of the pros and cons of technology. It leads to a disaster like systemd in Debian, the decline of Firefox, and everything about the total mishap that is GNOME 3.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday November 19 2014, @01:25PM
Everything is supposedly about "emotion" and "empathy" and "compassion" and "tolerance" to them.
This is, obviously, an absolutely terrible state of mind to have when working with technology.
well, the systemd devs have been telling users to fuck off, so in light of your revelations you should build a bridge and get the fuck over it
moron
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday November 19 2014, @01:29PM
I would, if that bridge allows me to stay far far away from them.
(Score: 2) by Jeremiah Cornelius on Wednesday November 19 2014, @04:00PM
Yes, far on the right bank.
You're betting on the pantomime horse...
(Score: 2) by c0lo on Wednesday November 19 2014, @01:25PM
The thought you may be right made my shudder.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoFiw2jMy-0 https://soylentnews.org/~MichaelDavidCrawford
(Score: 3, Insightful) by Thexalon on Wednesday November 19 2014, @02:20PM
Don't worry, he's not. Some people falsely equate embracing "Don't be a dick" as a moral standard with weakness and over-sensitivity. Also, GP seems to be equating not discriminating against people based on inborn traits like gender identity, race, and sexual orientation with being unwilling to criticize stupid ideas or shoddy work for being stupid and shoddy.
The only thing that stops a bad guy with a compiler is a good guy with a compiler.
(Score: 2) by c0lo on Thursday November 20 2014, @06:52AM
This is why I like better "live and let live" as a moral compass - it is less prone to misinterpretation and has the "Don't be a dick" as a consequence.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoFiw2jMy-0 https://soylentnews.org/~MichaelDavidCrawford
(Score: 2) by Thexalon on Thursday November 20 2014, @01:26PM
There's an important difference between "Don't be a dick" and "Live and let live": Let's say you observe somebody getting beaten on the sidewalk. "Don't be a dick" implies you should do something to improve the situation (because it's a dick move to ignore others' suffering). "Live and let live" implies that you shouldn't (because that would be interfering with someone else's dispute).
The only thing that stops a bad guy with a compiler is a good guy with a compiler.
(Score: 2) by HiThere on Wednesday November 19 2014, @09:55PM
When people are emotionally committed to something, anything, they may be disappointed. Being disappointed makes people unhappy. If you need to work with someone who is unhappy, it assists you to realize that they are unhappy. This is called being empathetic. The reason that they are unhappy is nearly irrelevant. Compassion is reasonable is you like, or want to like, that person even if you find their reason for being unhappy unreasonable.
If you don't understand that, then I will be willing to call you socially inept.
Javascript is what you use to allow unknown third parties to run software you have no idea about on your computer.
(Score: 2) by c0lo on Wednesday November 19 2014, @10:43PM
Doesn't happen to me, the two feelings are very loosely coupled.
If the work is what makes people unhappy, then what aren't they stop doing it? Especially in open-source, when it's not about earning your living.
I'm lost: for me the reason is highly relevant - otherwise, how can I help them if I can?
Surely, I can empathize with them. But if the work that was agreed makes them unhappy, then the agreement takes precedence over their feeling - the only release they will ever get is the release from the responsibility of the agreed work.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoFiw2jMy-0 https://soylentnews.org/~MichaelDavidCrawford
(Score: 1) by jmorris on Wednesday November 19 2014, @11:52PM
how come a technical issue got to the point of
There is your problem. It isn't a technical issue, it is a culture problem.
The 'Linux' community has a problem; it was too open and by allowing people who disagree with the UNIX philosophy equal standing to commit code and otherwise set policy we have simply been outvoted by the Windows refugees.
Something the *BSD communities should be thinking deeply on about now as a lot of refugees are about to be fleeing Linux. Many are UNIX folk who won't be a problem but many are far too open to things the more hardcore *BSD types abhor and if unchecked will begin to overwhelm the much smaller *BSD community. Start discussing the problem NOW while there is time.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday November 20 2014, @12:51AM
This is very true. If there's even the slightest indication that somebody might be a hipster, they need to be excluded from any open source project. It's worth losing out on some good code if it means avoiding the risk that somebody might infect an open source project with the systemd mentality, or worse, bring along their social justice warrior style of political bullshit. As we've seen with Debian, that kind of shit will kill even the most vibrant of open source projects. FreeBSD is just as vulnerable as Debian was, as far as I'm concerned.
(Score: 2) by c0lo on Thursday November 20 2014, @02:43AM
[Citation needed].
No, seriously this time, not just the use of a meme for funny/trolling purposes.
I'm just trying to make my mind which of the *BSD distros I should try first. Any information on the risk if a "systemd-like issue repeat" factors heavily in my decision.
Thanks in advance.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoFiw2jMy-0 https://soylentnews.org/~MichaelDavidCrawford
(Score: 1) by jmorris on Thursday November 20 2014, @03:00AM
Look at all of the BSDs and decide which one you like. Odds are a lot of the refugees will make the same choice and considering the size difference between the Windows refugees and the Linux community is probably on the order of the size of the Linux refugees vs that BSD...
Of course the BSD people do have some defenses, they are Cathedral Builders and thus do not allow untrusted outsiders to just walk in and start pushing patches into their trees. Now we learn the value of the other side of that argument. ESR was right that the bazaar can build faster but it proved very vulnerable to a few corporate backed folks who could dedicate full time effort to taking over a project and making it unrecognizable to the original builders. Will be curious to see whether when this all shakes out if he revises his CatB document or issues a new screed.
(Score: 2) by cafebabe on Thursday November 20 2014, @03:21AM
Windows is dying and Linux is the refuge for Windows users. Through ignorance and expectation, Linux has gained some of the Windows cruft.
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(Score: 1) by jmorris on Thursday November 20 2014, @04:20AM
Windows may (or may not) now actually be dying but for over a decade Linux has been taking in refugees who could no longer stand the suckage of Windows. However they brought most of their Windows mindset with them, which is why svchost^Wsystemd is seen as a welcome advance. They just want a Windows that doesn't suck, a good many couldn't even care less about whether it is Free or not.
At the risk of going severely offtopic, it is much the same as the political situation in States like CO. People flee the general stupidity in CA and the first thing they do is register to vote and start voting for the exact same policies they ran away from the consequences of. The problem was in them so there is no running away; they just spread the mental disease.
In both cases they reflexively agree with the underlying premise while seeing that the result stinks. So they want to change the result without reexamining the premise, preferring to believe it was just a bad implementation because that is easier; self reflection and change being far harder than blaming somebody else. The mental model of Windows can't be fixed by having 'better' people do it. And Pottering ain't better people anyway.
But this is why most reviews is from the p.o.v. of a Windows user and the grading is on the extent a Linux distro is indistinguishable from Windows. It was why the GNOMEs tried to beat Microsoft to upending the desktop into a tablet for example. So long as being 'as good as Windows (or Mac)' is the only quality metric there is no opportunity to be better. Or to realize we already ARE better, and that is why they migrated in the first place; but we are also different. UNIX will still be here long after both PotteringOS and Windows are gone.
(Score: 2) by cafebabe on Thursday November 20 2014, @05:30AM
If you expose users to multiple operating systems, few prefer Windows. However, the ones who do want a version of Windows which costs $0, never crashes and works with all of their bargain bin hardware. They haven't found this solution but they are locusts who will depart when they find a closer fit. Support this market at your peril.
I understand. Worryingly, people may exacerbate a problem by either repeating familiar behavior or by becoming the other side of the problem. For example, a friend in London witnessed a man say "There's too many foreigners in London. I'm moving to Spain." And you just know this person is going to be *exactly* the type of immigrant of which he complains. (Never learns local customs. Never learns the local language. Never eats native food. Never integrates.) Sometimes, just sometimes, there are binary positions in a debate and "If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem."
We could have implemented anything. Instead we got Windows Explorer clones, Microsoft Office clones, Photoshop clones and mediocre Windows binary support. The people writing these clones are lauded but Windows users look upon them as cheap imitations. Personally, I am overwhelmed with the features of OpenOffice but casual users don't appreciate that the implementation is more akin to ClarisWorks with more shared code and more consistent behavior. They just see an antiquated version of Word with different icons and a slow spreadsheet. (Unfortunately, the latter is not an easy fix because Microsoft Excel is a separate binary written in a bespoke version of C++ for the specific purpose of achieving performance targets.)
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