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posted by
janrinok
on Wednesday November 19 2014, @11:25AM
from the I-hope-we-don't-regret-this dept.
from the I-hope-we-don't-regret-this dept.
Ian Jackson's general resolution to prevent init system coupling has failed to pass, the majority vote deciding that the resolution is unnecessary. This means that not only will Debian's default init be systemd, but packages will not be required to support other init systems. Presumably, this means that using other init systems on Debian (without using systemd as a base) will not be possible without major workarounds, or possibly at all. It also leaves the future of Debian projects such as kFreeBSD unclear, as systemd is linux specific.
The vote results can be found here
The winners are:
Option 4 "General Resolution is not required"
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Debian General Resolution to Prevent Init System Coupling Fails to Pass
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The last time I saw him he was walking down Lover's Lane holding his own hand.
-- Fred Allen
(Score: 1) by jmorris on Wednesday November 19 2014, @11:52PM
how come a technical issue got to the point of
There is your problem. It isn't a technical issue, it is a culture problem.
The 'Linux' community has a problem; it was too open and by allowing people who disagree with the UNIX philosophy equal standing to commit code and otherwise set policy we have simply been outvoted by the Windows refugees.
Something the *BSD communities should be thinking deeply on about now as a lot of refugees are about to be fleeing Linux. Many are UNIX folk who won't be a problem but many are far too open to things the more hardcore *BSD types abhor and if unchecked will begin to overwhelm the much smaller *BSD community. Start discussing the problem NOW while there is time.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday November 20 2014, @12:51AM
This is very true. If there's even the slightest indication that somebody might be a hipster, they need to be excluded from any open source project. It's worth losing out on some good code if it means avoiding the risk that somebody might infect an open source project with the systemd mentality, or worse, bring along their social justice warrior style of political bullshit. As we've seen with Debian, that kind of shit will kill even the most vibrant of open source projects. FreeBSD is just as vulnerable as Debian was, as far as I'm concerned.
(Score: 2) by c0lo on Thursday November 20 2014, @02:43AM
[Citation needed].
No, seriously this time, not just the use of a meme for funny/trolling purposes.
I'm just trying to make my mind which of the *BSD distros I should try first. Any information on the risk if a "systemd-like issue repeat" factors heavily in my decision.
Thanks in advance.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoFiw2jMy-0 https://soylentnews.org/~MichaelDavidCrawford
(Score: 1) by jmorris on Thursday November 20 2014, @03:00AM
Look at all of the BSDs and decide which one you like. Odds are a lot of the refugees will make the same choice and considering the size difference between the Windows refugees and the Linux community is probably on the order of the size of the Linux refugees vs that BSD...
Of course the BSD people do have some defenses, they are Cathedral Builders and thus do not allow untrusted outsiders to just walk in and start pushing patches into their trees. Now we learn the value of the other side of that argument. ESR was right that the bazaar can build faster but it proved very vulnerable to a few corporate backed folks who could dedicate full time effort to taking over a project and making it unrecognizable to the original builders. Will be curious to see whether when this all shakes out if he revises his CatB document or issues a new screed.
(Score: 2) by cafebabe on Thursday November 20 2014, @03:21AM
Windows is dying and Linux is the refuge for Windows users. Through ignorance and expectation, Linux has gained some of the Windows cruft.
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(Score: 1) by jmorris on Thursday November 20 2014, @04:20AM
Windows may (or may not) now actually be dying but for over a decade Linux has been taking in refugees who could no longer stand the suckage of Windows. However they brought most of their Windows mindset with them, which is why svchost^Wsystemd is seen as a welcome advance. They just want a Windows that doesn't suck, a good many couldn't even care less about whether it is Free or not.
At the risk of going severely offtopic, it is much the same as the political situation in States like CO. People flee the general stupidity in CA and the first thing they do is register to vote and start voting for the exact same policies they ran away from the consequences of. The problem was in them so there is no running away; they just spread the mental disease.
In both cases they reflexively agree with the underlying premise while seeing that the result stinks. So they want to change the result without reexamining the premise, preferring to believe it was just a bad implementation because that is easier; self reflection and change being far harder than blaming somebody else. The mental model of Windows can't be fixed by having 'better' people do it. And Pottering ain't better people anyway.
But this is why most reviews is from the p.o.v. of a Windows user and the grading is on the extent a Linux distro is indistinguishable from Windows. It was why the GNOMEs tried to beat Microsoft to upending the desktop into a tablet for example. So long as being 'as good as Windows (or Mac)' is the only quality metric there is no opportunity to be better. Or to realize we already ARE better, and that is why they migrated in the first place; but we are also different. UNIX will still be here long after both PotteringOS and Windows are gone.
(Score: 2) by cafebabe on Thursday November 20 2014, @05:30AM
If you expose users to multiple operating systems, few prefer Windows. However, the ones who do want a version of Windows which costs $0, never crashes and works with all of their bargain bin hardware. They haven't found this solution but they are locusts who will depart when they find a closer fit. Support this market at your peril.
I understand. Worryingly, people may exacerbate a problem by either repeating familiar behavior or by becoming the other side of the problem. For example, a friend in London witnessed a man say "There's too many foreigners in London. I'm moving to Spain." And you just know this person is going to be *exactly* the type of immigrant of which he complains. (Never learns local customs. Never learns the local language. Never eats native food. Never integrates.) Sometimes, just sometimes, there are binary positions in a debate and "If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem."
We could have implemented anything. Instead we got Windows Explorer clones, Microsoft Office clones, Photoshop clones and mediocre Windows binary support. The people writing these clones are lauded but Windows users look upon them as cheap imitations. Personally, I am overwhelmed with the features of OpenOffice but casual users don't appreciate that the implementation is more akin to ClarisWorks with more shared code and more consistent behavior. They just see an antiquated version of Word with different icons and a slow spreadsheet. (Unfortunately, the latter is not an easy fix because Microsoft Excel is a separate binary written in a bespoke version of C++ for the specific purpose of achieving performance targets.)
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