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Uber lobbied politicians, broke laws in global push: reports:
Uber Technologies Inc. attempted to lobby politicians and flouted laws as part of efforts to expand globally from 2013 to 2017, according to newspaper reports based on leaked documents.
The company allegedly received assistance in its efforts from politicians including French President Emmanuel Macron, reports from outlets including the Guardian and Le Monde said. The so-called "Uber Files" — based on more than 124,000 documents shared with the non-profit International Consortium of Investigative Journalists — cover a period of time when co-founder Travis Kalanick was chief executive officer and detail the lengths to which the company sought to expand into key cities like Paris.
In a statement released shortly after the reports were published, Uber didn't deny any of the allegations and instead focused on the changes that have been made since Dara Khosrowshahi was named CEO in 2017.
"There has been no shortage of reporting on Uber's mistakes prior to 2017," the San Francisco-based company said in a statement. "Thousands of stories have been published, multiple books have been written — there's even been a TV series."
Uber said that Khosrowshahi has transformed the company, making safety a top priority.
"When we say Uber is a different company today, we mean it literally: 90% of current Uber employees joined after Dara became CEO," according to the statement.
Uber's aggressive tactics as it took on the taxi industry have been reported on for years. Bloomberg News reported in 2018 that the company had deployed a remote system to prevent police from obtaining internal data during raids.
See Also: Leaked Documents Show Uber Thwarted Police and Secretly Courted Politicians
(Score: 1, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday July 13 2022, @08:19PM (9 children)
I'm mildly amused that lobbying politicians is being put on the same level as committing crimes.
(Score: 4, Insightful) by Runaway1956 on Wednesday July 13 2022, @08:27PM (4 children)
Imagine the Mafia deciding that they would take over the taxi services, globally. But, they insist that the definition of employee has to be changed, they insist that licensing be abolished, they insist that drivers bring their own cars, they insist on one concession after another, including tax breaks.
So, Uber isn't run by the Mafia. Still, everything they've done has been shady as all hell. Surprising that someone has just discovered that Uber has broken tons of laws, ain't it?
Abortion is the number one killed of children in the United States.
(Score: 1) by khallow on Wednesday July 13 2022, @11:16PM (3 children)
Dumb analogy - the Mafia is doing this by force, Uber is doing this by willing participation of drivers and riders.
If only the taxi companies weren't more shady! I bet there's a few mafia-run taxi companies and labor unions out hurting for business and maybe bankrolling a little anti-Uber propaganda. Meanwhile, you've acknowledged that Uber is not so run.
(Score: 2, Insightful) by Runaway1956 on Wednesday July 13 2022, @11:42PM (2 children)
*yawn*
Try to keep up with the times, khallow. The Mafia doesn't rely so much on violence these days. The Mafia has infiltrated government, the unions, the casinos, and more. They operate just like Uber has done in this case. I'm sure that if the Mafia wanted to hire a hitman, they know where to look, but that isn't the kind of thing they do in routine business.
Abortion is the number one killed of children in the United States.
(Score: 1) by khallow on Wednesday July 13 2022, @11:50PM (1 child)
Force != violence. Another way I'm not a pure libertarian theorist. As to the infiltration, well, I see that supporting my argument.
(Score: 2, Touché) by Runaway1956 on Wednesday July 13 2022, @11:54PM
So, you're saying that the Mafia has been rehabilitated, and everything is all hunkey-dory if Uber imitates the Mafia. Do I understand your position?
Abortion is the number one killed of children in the United States.
(Score: 3, Interesting) by PiMuNu on Wednesday July 13 2022, @09:02PM (1 child)
https://www.dutchnews.nl/news/2022/07/former-commissioner-neelie-kroes-breached-ethics-rules-by-lobbying-for-uber/ [dutchnews.nl]
> Former European commissioner Neelie Kroes secretly lobbied for online taxi company Uber after leaving office,
> despite being explicitly told it breached ethical rules, an investigation has found.
> Kroes asked for permission from the Commission to work for Uber in 2015, the year after she stepped down as
> commissioner for the digital agenda.
Bribery is a criminal offence in most (all?) EU countries.
(Score: 1) by NPC-131072 on Wednesday July 13 2022, @09:32PM
You guys seem stuck in a Rutte [substack.com] -- someone must have their hands on the Unilevers [unilever.com] of power?
(Score: 4, Touché) by Opportunist on Wednesday July 13 2022, @09:44PM (1 child)
Mildly amused? My only reaction was "about fucking time".
(Score: 3, Interesting) by corey on Wednesday July 13 2022, @11:33PM
It all seemed too good to be true hey.
I never installed their app nor used their services. They seemed evil and slimy from the start. But friends and family pretty much switched from using language “I’ll get a taxi”, to “I’ll get an Uber “ overnight. Always seemed like some level up in coolness to be taking Uber rides but I never bought into it, mostly due to the way they treated their drivers. And I guess I push back on anything new and “cool” with a sense of contempt unless it’s actually good for something. I feel my sense of the company (that they are ethically devoid) is now vindicated. At least here in Australia, taxis continue to operate alongside rideshare services. Having said that, whenever my family and friends brag about getting an Uber, it seems to always carry a complaint about the current surge pricing and how expensive it is. So maybe it’s not any better than taxis? (The argument that taxis are dirty is as far from the truth as you can get here, they always come with fresh smelling, clean leather seats).
(Score: 4, Interesting) by looorg on Wednesday July 13 2022, @08:22PM (56 children)
"When we say Uber is a different company today, we mean it literally: 90% of current Uber employees joined after Dara became CEO"
So we used to be scumbags that did a lot of shady stuff and broke the law, but we totally don't do those things anymore ... Promise! But please don't try to verify that or investigate us. Just trust us.
Still that leaves about 10% of the company that are still shady scumbags then ...
Macron was recently reelected. How convenient this didn't come out earlier ...
(Score: 5, Interesting) by JoeMerchant on Wednesday July 13 2022, @08:41PM (52 children)
No investigation is necessary to understand that Uber is a bunch of shady scumbags, marketing a product that skirts existing laws and regulations by the slimmest of clearances, or more often tramples straight over the regulations and just dares local enforcement to try and stop them.
In the 1990s I made a list of business models that could dramatically benefit from the coming internet connectivity, cell (to become smart) phones, etc. Private driver taxi dispatch was at the top of the list, but being a timid law abiding business group, we declined to challenge the existing regulations and entrenched industry. Uber (Lyft, et. al.) were more bold, and so far they have profited. Much like Juul profited by completely ignoring all the nicotine regulating legislation because "they don't sell a tobacco burning product." Yeah.
2nd on that list was non-people delivery services, similar to DoorDash, Instacart, etc. It was deemed a management nightmare, and we were too generous in our evaluation of what kind of pay the drivers would demand - Uber, Lyft, et. al. proved: people will work to lose money in the long run, as long as they're getting a little cash in their pockets in the short term.
Beneficiaries of the failed mathematics/financial education system, these internet giants are.
Україна досі не є частиною Росії Слава Україні🌻 https://news.stanford.edu/2023/02/17/will-russia-ukraine-war-end
(Score: 3, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday July 13 2022, @10:51PM (2 children)
> Much like Juul profited by completely ignoring all the nicotine regulating legislation because "they don't sell a tobacco burning product." Yeah.
It is unreasonable to expect a society governed by rule of law to then require people to voluntarily submit to rules which are not law. If the laws say "tobacco", then Juul did nothing wrong.
(Score: 2) by JoeMerchant on Thursday July 14 2022, @01:22PM (1 child)
> If the laws say "tobacco", then Juul did nothing wrong.
And Slick Willie didn't have sex with Monica...
Just because the drafters of our laws are short sighted and can't envision technology coming 20, 50, or 200 years in the future, doesn't mean that a reasonable modern judge can't interpret the laws to fit modern times.
What we lacked in the Juul case were reasonable modern judges who care about people more than profits.
Україна досі не є частиною Росії Слава Україні🌻 https://news.stanford.edu/2023/02/17/will-russia-ukraine-war-end
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday July 14 2022, @02:35PM
It is NOT the responsibility of the courts to create new laws. This responsibility is granted to the legislature. Blame congress if you want to blame someone for failing to keep up with technological advances.
(Score: 0, Disagree) by khallow on Wednesday July 13 2022, @11:37PM (44 children)
Notice a key effect here. Regulation and entrenched special interests blocked a more moral way for you to do business 30 years ago. Now, you're impotently complaining about shady scumbags doing what you couldn't do - merely because they adapted to the rules of the game. That's karma.
My take is that the regulations reward shady scumbags - including regulations introduced by generations of clueless do-gooders. At this point, I see no way out from having shady scumbags, they're a natural consequence of the clueless moral choices we've made and continue to make. So at this point, even if we can't have morality in our businesses, we can still have competition. Uber and its competitors provide that.
Unless, of course, they're making money in the long run as well.
(Score: 3, Insightful) by JoeMerchant on Thursday July 14 2022, @12:42AM (43 children)
>blocked a more moral way for you to do business
Thank you for your opinion. In my opinion, the established taxi system, while ripe for improvement in customer experience, is still today a far more moral way to do business than Uber, Lyft et. al.
>you're impotently complaining
No complaints here. I am far more satisfied with my money making choices of the last 30 years than I would have been taking a long shot risk at breaking laws and fighting an established industry which had honed many aspects of the business to razor thin margins over extremely optimized costs of operation.
>regulations reward shady scumbags
As most regulations do. I prefer licensed and regulated shady scumbags to unregulated unregistered shady scumbags like the ones that are running Uber.
>the clueless moral choices we've made and continue to make.
What kind of tea have you started smoking?
>Unless, of course, they're making money in the long run as well.
Some do, many don't, and most of those who are losing money in the long term aren't even aware it is happening. Shady scumbags preying on the big picture financial ignorance of their workers.
Україна досі не є частиною Росії Слава Україні🌻 https://news.stanford.edu/2023/02/17/will-russia-ukraine-war-end
(Score: 0, Disagree) by khallow on Thursday July 14 2022, @02:59AM (42 children)
Razor thin margins like million dollar [documentedny.com] New York City taxi medallions in 2014. Due to competition from the internet ride hailing services, that bubble collapsed to $80k. NYC is unusually corrupt, but similar games have been played at hundreds of cities. Uber and company burned that down. That's the power of competition.
When the regulations create the scumbags in the first place, then unregulated is better.
(Score: 3, Interesting) by JoeMerchant on Thursday July 14 2022, @04:04AM (41 children)
>New York City taxi medallions in 2014.
I believe Uber was already operating for 5 years at this time. I guess it hasn't magically slain your monster after all. Also, New York is at the extreme end of extreme - and your million dollar medallions are more an example of free market capitalism gone wrong. They are bid up to that level because they are proven to be worth that money. If you look at any photo of New York City streets (particularly Manhattan) from the last 60+ years, can you honestly tell me that they would benefit from MORE taxi-cabs?
Україна досі не є частиною Росії Слава Україні🌻 https://news.stanford.edu/2023/02/17/will-russia-ukraine-war-end
(Score: 1) by khallow on Thursday July 14 2022, @11:43AM (40 children)
Given that Uber has since operated for more than 13 years at this time, and those medallions have since collapsed by an order of magnitude, it's definitely nibbled on that pool of razor thin margins.
Once again, isn't it interesting how "free market capitalism" gets blamed when someone deliberately breaks a market? Free market capitalism wouldn't have a non-market force like a city government artificially restrict supply to the point that merely driving people around is a million dollar meal ticket.
Yes. The price of the medallions was proof of that.
(Score: 2) by JoeMerchant on Thursday July 14 2022, @01:26PM (39 children)
>and those medallions have since collapsed by an order of magnitude, it's definitely nibbled on that pool of razor thin margins.
Long before Uber started skirting the taxi laws in NYC, "Town Car" limo services were doing it. They established the flimsiest dance of connection between driver and passengers that allow them to operate as "Not a taxi" cars and drivers for hire which just happen to be all over the city, taking up much more parking space than the regulated taxis, and clogging the already impossible roads in high demand areas even worse. Last time I needed a ride to LaGuardia, we were able to hail one of these town cars easier than a taxi, because the town cars had physically blocked the street to a point that no other vehicles, taxis, private cars, ambulances, police, etc. could get through.
>Yes. The price of the medallions was proof of that.
In your head.
Україна досі не є частиною Росії Слава Україні🌻 https://news.stanford.edu/2023/02/17/will-russia-ukraine-war-end
(Score: 1) by khallow on Thursday July 14 2022, @11:18PM (38 children)
We call that "unintended consequences".
You keep whistling past that graveyard. Million dollar oligopolies are a solid demonstration that huge market ineffeciencies are being created. That's more important than a modest increase in city traffic.
(Score: 2) by JoeMerchant on Friday July 15 2022, @01:50AM (37 children)
>We call that "unintended consequences".
You call that unintended. I call it willful ignorance - not ignorant as in they don't know, but willfully ignoring that they are breaking the intent of the law.
>That's more important than a modest increase in city traffic.
There's nothing modest about Manhattan traffic, it's a serious impediment to delivery of vital services.
>Million dollar oligopolies are a solid demonstration that huge market ineffeciencies are being created.
The roads are a limited (and fixed, in Manhattan) resource. Million dollar taxi medallions are little different than the billions of dollars spent on spectrum auctions: https://www.fcc.gov/auction/4 [fcc.gov] supply and demand at work. Pirate radio operators aren't "innovative businessmen" any more than Uber or Town Car operators in markets that have not yet chosen to shut them down. It has nothing to do with market inefficiency, taxi riders continue to pay for the cost of medallions - they could take the subway, they could walk, they even could pay for a private car - I drove my car in and around Manhattan in 1988 for 3 weeks, taking taxis would have been cheaper. Without a limit on the number of taxis, the roads frequently became unusable.
Україна досі не є частиною Росії Слава Україні🌻 https://news.stanford.edu/2023/02/17/will-russia-ukraine-war-end
(Score: 1) by khallow on Friday July 15 2022, @02:22AM (36 children)
When the intent of the law is wrong, then it should be broken.
So is the establishment of cushy oligopolies.
Except that medallions artificially reduce those vital services further than mere use of the roads do. The ride hailing services demonstrated that the roads could be used a lot more than they were.
I certainly would consider them innovative businessmen just like Uber and those Town Car operators.
(Score: 2) by JoeMerchant on Friday July 15 2022, @12:13PM (3 children)
Ride hailing is not a vital service in a city where most people can walk to everything they need. Firefighter vehicles, bulk food delivery trucks and other road users are.
Україна досі не є частиною Росії Слава Україні🌻 https://news.stanford.edu/2023/02/17/will-russia-ukraine-war-end
(Score: 1) by khallow on Friday July 15 2022, @12:45PM (2 children)
Most != all.
And they already have ways to prioritize that traffic. This is not a serious issue.
(Score: 2) by JoeMerchant on Friday July 15 2022, @01:58PM (1 child)
>And they already have ways to prioritize that traffic.
Yeah, and taxi medallions are part of that formula. Without them the free market would pile cabs on the streets until they experience daily gridlock for unpredictable lengths of time.
Україна досі не є частиною Росії Слава Україні🌻 https://news.stanford.edu/2023/02/17/will-russia-ukraine-war-end
(Score: 1) by khallow on Friday July 15 2022, @11:05PM
Sure. Now that medallions collapsed in price, I guess something else will have to become part of that formula.
(Score: 2) by JoeMerchant on Friday July 15 2022, @12:32PM (31 children)
>>Pirate radio operators aren't "innovative businessmen" any more than Uber or Town Car operators in markets that have not yet chosen to shut them down.
>I certainly would consider them innovative businessmen just like Uber and those Town Car operators.
I guess that's how the world in your head works. In the world that I live in, pirate radio is a fringe curiosity that has minimal value as compared to licensed operations.
Україна досі не є частиною Росії Слава Україні🌻 https://news.stanford.edu/2023/02/17/will-russia-ukraine-war-end
(Score: 1) by khallow on Saturday July 16 2022, @01:09AM (30 children)
More on this.
My bet is that pirate radio is pretty innovative and covers a lot of niches nobody mainstream will touch. Would have to be to survive.
(Score: 2) by JoeMerchant on Saturday July 16 2022, @01:24PM (29 children)
>My bet is that pirate radio is pretty innovative and covers a lot of niches nobody mainstream will touch. Would have to be to survive.
My bet is that pirate radio is mostly not profitable, surviving mainly on hobbyist funding, money raised through other sources than operation of the radio station.
I would also refer you, again, to "A Libertarian Walks into a Bear" by Matthew Hongoltz-Hetling, likely available from you local tax supported library, if the libertarians haven't cut its funding too severely. I would be genuinely interested to know, after a complete reading, if you acknowledge the facts presented in the book, or if you believe them to be "fake news"?
Україна досі не є частиною Росії Слава Україні🌻 https://news.stanford.edu/2023/02/17/will-russia-ukraine-war-end
(Score: 1) by khallow on Monday July 18 2022, @02:19PM (28 children)
As to your book recommendation, why is it relevant?
(Score: 2) by JoeMerchant on Monday July 18 2022, @02:30PM (27 children)
The "Outlaw X" stations that ZZ Top sings about are based in Mexico and carry music you wouldn't hear anywhere else - cool? Yes. Profitable? Almost never.
The book describes an actual town which "went libertarian" with sufficient control of local government to drastically reduce regulations and services. It's based on a series of interviews and paints a rather complete picture of how that little experiment turned out for the people living "unfettered by unnecessary regulations, unburdened by the tax bills for unnecessary services." It's a town that would never shut down a pirate radio station, nor issue citations for unlicensed taxi operations.
Україна досі не є частиною Росії Слава Україні🌻 https://news.stanford.edu/2023/02/17/will-russia-ukraine-war-end
(Score: 1, Disagree) by khallow on Monday July 18 2022, @03:37PM (26 children)
So not relevant to your point. Sorry, I continue to not buy that creating permanent oligopolies is necessary to the functioning of society. Instt, I think it's the other thing - detrimental.
Keep in mind this is not a few libertarians haplessly dealing with libertarian bears. It's hundreds of thousands of people, perhaps even millions choosing to outright abandon this system that NYC created. I'm fine with that.
(Score: 2) by JoeMerchant on Monday July 18 2022, @06:32PM (25 children)
>I continue to not buy that creating permanent oligopolies is necessary to the functioning of society. Instt, I think it's the other thing - detrimental.
I would agree that permanent rights are a bad idea and that those who hold the rights to limited resources (usually in exchange for large sums of money paid into the public funds) should continuously demonstrate that they are making good use of those rights.
You can't turn loose 100,000 taxis on NYC streets and expect anything good to happen - there has to be a limiting mechanism, and waiting for the tragedy of the commons to kick in isn't a good solution.
The book is about quite a bit more than bears.
Україна досі не є частиною Росії Слава Україні🌻 https://news.stanford.edu/2023/02/17/will-russia-ukraine-war-end
(Score: 1) by khallow on Tuesday July 19 2022, @02:41AM (24 children)
Maybe not "expect". But given that Uber and company did something equivalent, and good happened, then that's good enough for me.
We can also exile people from NYC.
You still have yet to come up with something relevant from that book.
(Score: 2) by JoeMerchant on Tuesday July 19 2022, @03:00PM (23 children)
>and good happened
Define good? You're going to have to do better than the collapse of an insanely overpumped speculative market in fewer than 14000 "NFT equivalents."
>We can also exile people from NYC.
A popular view, outside NYC. NYC is a hot mess, and has been for well over a century (much like a little London.) Rent control is another whacked out misguided socio-economic experiment they have been running for 50+ years now. There used to be a meme to the effect of: if they shut the bridges and tunnels to Manhattan the food would run out within 36 hours... I find it interesting that neither Google nor Snopes will produce any results even somewhat related to that now, but in any event, the current crisis is one of package delivery, apparently every resident of Manhattan is receiving, on average, one individually delivered package via common carrier every 48 hours. a 200% increase since pre-pandemic levels, and a situation that is prompting them to make these common carrier deliveries to the island via ship instead of tunnel or bridge. It might support your world view a bit to know that the population density in NYC has actually been dropping over the years, it's still insanely high but used to be much higher in many areas of the city ~100 years ago. We've got much more capable infrastructure these days, but each resident is also demanding more from the infrastructure than ever before.
>You still have yet to come up with something relevant from that book.
The reason I recommend the book is because it's much more of a big picture experience than a bunch of snippets that are of course easily belittled out of context.
Some relevant stories should be all too familiar - if you've ever been party to a shared maintenance agreement private road, for example. We have been such twice in our lives, first time was a relative dream: wealthy neighbors maintained the road to their satisfaction without asking us (simple land with no structure owners) to chip in, though we did when there were issues in the road directly in front of our land. Where we live now, seven homes share 1200' of driveway, and four of them basically refuse to pay for any road improvement work. A proper fix (asphalt) would last 20+ years and cost something less than $20K, but instead two of the neighbors (senile old men, one died last year the other moved away) would go out and find "great deals" on basically dirt that wouldn't last even one rainy season and they would pay thousands (4, and 6) for that and ask everyone to chip in, most would refuse. Now, a neighborly neighbor has decided that they don't like people driving around the potholes toward their side of the 25' easement, so first they put up reflectors on sticks 5' inside the easement. When those got run over and broken (24 hours after erection) they took them out and dug new potholes along their edge of the easement. Welcome to shared roadway maintenance. We live all the way at the end of the road, so of course all our neighbors expect us to pay for the whole thing, and so far the $5K we have put into driveway maintenance has only netted $1300 in cost share from our two immediate neighbors, though that work seems to be lasting 10x as long as the dirt (called "recycled asphalt tailings" and also steel mill slag) the old men selected. The slag sinks into the sand surprisingly quickly, invisible after 2 years or less, and the tailings only maintained cohesion when oiled, said oiling basically being a 1/4" coat of diesel fuel over the surface, which at $5 per gallon across 10,000 square feet doesn't come cheap, and again lasts maybe one rainy season, if it's not too rainy. So, of course, we only got it done once.
The book does talk about the consequences of some residents feeding bears while others shoot them, both illegal at the state level but unenforced in the libertarian zone. It also explains how the volunteer fire department became a central pillar of the community, not a mighty or noble pillar, but the best they had. To explain too many points would be to spoil the unfolding of the story.
Україна досі не є частиною Росії Слава Україні🌻 https://news.stanford.edu/2023/02/17/will-russia-ukraine-war-end
(Score: 1) by khallow on Wednesday July 20 2022, @12:06AM (22 children)
Why? It checks the box. NYC taxi customers were being robbed, probably for centuries. That oligopoly got broken in a few short years. I think that is a huge positive good.
Not much point to a fallacy of composition. The overall city population is about 50% more than it was in 1920 with about the same occupied area. So that means some areas (probably more areas) are seeing increased population density too.
You have yet to show relevance. It's a stereotype of libertarian interaction, and it ignores two huge problems. The problems I describe are of a profoundly corrupt 8+ million city over decades while the problems of Grafton, NH (what the story is about) are of a 1600 person town over a few years. And my bet is that the differences of Grafton will be settled long before the graft of NYC is.
(Score: 2) by JoeMerchant on Wednesday July 20 2022, @01:19AM (13 children)
>NYC taxi customers were being robbed, probably for centuries.
NYC, more than most, taxi customers have plenty of alternative methods of personal transportation, starting with walking.
>It's a stereotype of libertarian interaction
No, actually it is a series of interviews of residents on all sides of the politics.
Україна досі не є частиною Росії Слава Україні🌻 https://news.stanford.edu/2023/02/17/will-russia-ukraine-war-end
(Score: 1) by khallow on Wednesday July 20 2022, @01:42AM (12 children)
Except when they don't, such as due to mobility disability.
(Score: 2) by JoeMerchant on Wednesday July 20 2022, @02:02AM (11 children)
Know anyone with a mobility disability? First off, if they are living in NYC they are either a masochist or looking to profit from ADA lawsuit shenanigans, the architecture is still outdated in many places. Second, they have their own channels for transportation both in NYC and around the country, usually 100% taxpayer supported, Uber et. al. don't really apply to them both due to incompatibility with standard vehicles and the infinite cost differential, from their perspective.
Україна досі не є частиною Росії Слава Україні🌻 https://news.stanford.edu/2023/02/17/will-russia-ukraine-war-end
(Score: 1) by khallow on Wednesday July 20 2022, @02:38AM (10 children)
Because that would be the only reason to live in NYC? Sorry, that's not a serious comment.
Looks like Uber does accessibility [uber.com].
(Score: 2) by JoeMerchant on Wednesday July 20 2022, @02:47AM (9 children)
But, does it look like they do it well? While the state supported transportation isn't exactly speedy, it is at least somewhat predictable and reliable.
And ADA lawsuits are plenty serious for the 2300+ defendants per year, 3/4 of which appears to be drummed up by the plaintiff's attorneys. https://www.ny1.com/nyc/all-boroughs/news/2019/10/25/surge-in-lawsuits-by-small-group-of-with-disabilities-draws-scrutiny [ny1.com]
Україна досі не є частиною Росії Слава Україні🌻 https://news.stanford.edu/2023/02/17/will-russia-ukraine-war-end
(Score: 1) by khallow on Wednesday July 20 2022, @04:06AM (8 children)
Sounds like something you ought to research before continuing.
Maybe they'd go away if we gave them 100 productive acres? This came with a non sequitur. Maybe it'll leave with another.
(Score: 2) by JoeMerchant on Wednesday July 20 2022, @02:14PM (7 children)
>Sounds like something you ought to research before continuing.
You brought it up, you do the research, I literally DGAF about Uber for disabilities, particularly in NYC.
>This came with a non sequitur.
The transition from transportation for the disabled to ADA compliance levels is a much stronger connection than many you have made. Congrats on suggesting a grant of 100 acres to our mobility impaired, though, that's right on par with many of your other suggestions to improve our systems.
Україна досі не є частиною Росії Слава Україні🌻 https://news.stanford.edu/2023/02/17/will-russia-ukraine-war-end
(Score: 1, Disagree) by khallow on Thursday July 21 2022, @03:26AM (6 children)
I already did the research. Now, you're just saying things.
No, it's not. That's the problem.
(Score: 2) by JoeMerchant on Thursday July 21 2022, @01:49PM (5 children)
>I already did the research.
Your idea of research is like your arguments: astoundingly shallow.
Україна досі не є частиною Росії Слава Україні🌻 https://news.stanford.edu/2023/02/17/will-russia-ukraine-war-end
(Score: 0, Redundant) by khallow on Friday July 22 2022, @02:59AM (4 children)
(Score: 2) by JoeMerchant on Friday July 22 2022, @10:37AM (3 children)
When your second brain cell fires, you might realize that all transportation services for hire in the US are required to serve the disabled.
https://adata.org/factsheet/ADA-accessible-transportation [adata.org]
Україна досі не є частиною Росії Слава Україні🌻 https://news.stanford.edu/2023/02/17/will-russia-ukraine-war-end
(Score: 1) by khallow on Friday July 22 2022, @11:59AM (2 children)
(Score: 2) by JoeMerchant on Friday July 22 2022, @04:00PM (1 child)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c91XUyg9iWM [youtube.com]
Україна досі не є частиною Росії Слава Україні🌻 https://news.stanford.edu/2023/02/17/will-russia-ukraine-war-end
(Score: 1, Disagree) by khallow on Friday July 22 2022, @11:26PM
(Score: 2) by JoeMerchant on Wednesday July 20 2022, @01:27AM (7 children)
NYC is a freak show, representative of NYC and little else. If you don't intend to live there I would look away, you're unlikely to learn much of use outside the five boroughs. London, Tokyo, Paris etc may have some similar challenges but they are structurally and culturally different enough that their solutions will often be different.
Україна досі не є частиною Росії Слава Україні🌻 https://news.stanford.edu/2023/02/17/will-russia-ukraine-war-end
(Score: 1) by khallow on Wednesday July 20 2022, @01:39AM (6 children)
It's a freak show big enough to fund a good portion of ride hailing expansion. Funny how it's a freak show and Grafton, NH isn't.
Unless, of course, you pay attention.
But not different in a relevant way. They all are dense, vast urban areas with a lot of rent seeking businesses.
(Score: 2) by JoeMerchant on Wednesday July 20 2022, @01:57AM (5 children)
Grafton NH was, and still is a small rural town, not at the height of its population or economic prosperity much like thousands of similar towns across the US.
There are over 3400 in the Grafton size category of 1000-2500 residents, already half the population of NYC, and if you include the 9000 smaller towns you are somewhere close to total population parity with NYC. https://www.govtech.com/data/Nearly-Half-of-US-Cities-Have-Fewer-Than-1000-Residents.html [govtech.com]
>But not different in a relevant way
How much time have you spent in each of those cities, personally? After three weeks in NYC and a week in London, I can tell you that they deal with their similar challenges quite differently. Paris didn't take that long. I can only assume that a city with white gloved train packers is different still.
Україна досі не є частиною Росії Слава Україні🌻 https://news.stanford.edu/2023/02/17/will-russia-ukraine-war-end
(Score: 1) by khallow on Wednesday July 20 2022, @02:42AM (4 children)
Grafton is a freak show, representative of Grafton and little else. That's the line right?
In other words, you don't have a clue. But these dudes are wearing white gloves so the culture must be too different for Uber to be relevant.
(Score: 2) by JoeMerchant on Wednesday July 20 2022, @02:54AM (3 children)
>That's the line right?
Thankfully, yes. I am unaware of another example of public services being so radically stripped by politically active residents. But, no, if you have two firing brain cells you can also see the potential for a Grafton repeat (perhaps without the bears) in many thousands of towns across the country.
NYC continues to stand alone in it's weirdness, basically impossible to duplicate.
>In other words, you don't have a clue.
Your responses continue to demonstrate that I have quite a bit more clue about big cities than you do, NYC included. Reading about a place and living there are two very different things.
Україна досі не є частиною Росії Слава Україні🌻 https://news.stanford.edu/2023/02/17/will-russia-ukraine-war-end
(Score: 1) by khallow on Wednesday July 20 2022, @04:04AM (2 children)
In other words, Grafton is rather unique.
Which is not really that weird, let us note. There are lots of big cities too.
(Score: 2) by JoeMerchant on Wednesday July 20 2022, @02:10PM (1 child)
> Grafton is rather unique.
In how the politics and social situation unfolded, yes, which is what makes it more worth reading about than a more typical offramp town like, say, Dubois Idaho.
> There are lots of big cities too.
Yes, there are, but how many of those have instituted partial rent control? Located their central districts on an island? Developed a cultural (not quite melting) pot of ethnic groups which openly hate and segregate, yet cooperate with each other smoothly the vast majority of the time? The first true "New York resident" moment for me was after about a week of being there, I started reacting like a native: when somebody would piss me off I would instantly lash out and tell them to go fuck themselves, or similar. Surrounded by dense humanity while doing this, I noticed two things: 1) I felt a physical internal relief, it just felt good to tell them off, and 2) people are always watching, whenever I would tell whoever to F off for whatever reason, people would see and hear the interaction, judge it, and the more justified my reaction the more eye contact with sly grins and nods I would get from the crowd.
Paris has its own culture too, but it's quite a bit more intricate to gain acceptance in, I understand from people who have lived there that it takes years of effort to learn all the things they consider rude and how to avoid them in ways that do not trigger other judgements of rudeness for trying to be accepted when you are not. I was only there for about a week, but I did manage to fool a local into thinking I was a local for about 30 seconds. He was a croissant vendor and I happened to want the exact same thing as the man in front of me in the queue, so when it was my turn I stepped up and fairly perfectly imitated his accent for the entire "Un croissant chocolate, cie voux plait" the vendor happily set about making my croissant, but when it came time to pay, I blew the accent on a single vowel and it became obvious that I wasn't a native, probably pegging myself as American as well. Much like the New Yorkers' eyes twinkle immediately on the delivery of a well deserved FU, my croissant vendor's face fell the instant that vowel was spoken, he refused further eye contact, his body language became hostile and he all but threw the croissant at me.
More than their physical structures, it's important to understand these cultural differences and how they play in to the politics that shapes the laws and regulations of the cities. There's more, much more, of course, but reading about a place can never fully convey all that you feel while there, you feel much more than you can ever convey in writing.
Україна досі не є частиною Росії Слава Україні🌻 https://news.stanford.edu/2023/02/17/will-russia-ukraine-war-end
(Score: 0, Offtopic) by khallow on Thursday July 21 2022, @03:28AM
So no relevance to the subject at hand. Same with your analysis of Paris. I sense a pattern.
(Score: 3, Informative) by NotSanguine on Thursday July 14 2022, @05:06AM (3 children)
.
I guess that depends on how you define "profit."
If you mean that the founders and recipients of early options made a bundle when Uber IPO'd, then yes.
But Uber has yet to show a profit [yahoo.com] in the balance sheet sense, and it's unlikely they ever will IMHO.
And Lyft is in the same situation [yahoo.com].
No, no, you're not thinking; you're just being logical. --Niels Bohr
(Score: 2) by canopic jug on Thursday July 14 2022, @09:57AM (2 children)
The individual front companies have yet to turn a profit and have been living off of venture capital. They use that to subsidize their prices by something around 40%. Instead, the gain, or "profit" as it were, would be that they broke the labor markets in many countries by establishing a gig economy. So in that regard, they got what they had aimed for and it does not matter if Uber or Lyft are money pits, they were only the means to an end anyway.
In some of the more advanced countries everyone previously had more or less honest pay for honest work and fairly decent working conditions (relative to the job of course) and appropriate working hours. That was hard won and managed to last a few generations. However now, with the arrival of the gig movement, zero-hour contracts are almost normal. Few get paid enough to do more than squeak by, often without even a pension in the works. On top of that, the hours and working conditions have become terrible. In some places, workers even have to rent both workspace and equipment from the employer, who provides little to no value added aside from scheduling and maybe advertising. Combine that with not getting paid for a contiguous shift, there are a lot of people doing very poorly.
Money is not free speech. Elections should not be auctions.
(Score: 3, Interesting) by NotSanguine on Thursday July 14 2022, @07:33PM (1 child)
You won't get an argument about any of that from me.
And I found it disgusting that these guys spent nearly nine figures [reuters.com] to pass Proposition 22 [investopedia.com].
These people are scum. Full stop.
No, no, you're not thinking; you're just being logical. --Niels Bohr
(Score: 1) by khallow on Saturday July 16 2022, @01:11AM
Just shows inefficiency. They probably could have spent a lot less and still get it passed.
(Score: 1) by khallow on Thursday July 14 2022, @12:44PM (2 children)
BTW, did we ever get around to describing what laws Uber broke? I notice the story is vague on that.
(Score: 3, Interesting) by looorg on Thursday July 14 2022, @01:34PM (1 child)
I agree that the story does seem a bit vague on the specifics except to note that laws in general regarding various issues (a fairly long list of them) appear to have been broken. I guess this is also part of the issue in that Uber (etc) seem to skate between legislation due to it sometimes wanting to be a taxi-company and then sometimes it's just a virtual company and all the services and responsibilities gets pushed onto the drivers as they are not apparently sometimes an employee and sometimes a private contractor. So they seem to be picking things that suits them when it benefits them but as soon as it doesn't things gets pushed on towards someone or something else -- they don't own any cars, the drivers are private contractors, the passengers are responsible for things clearly out of their control etc.
But the articles here are indeed not very specific in that this § or that § have been violated except that apparently they are probably in the areas of workers rights, various safety issues for both drivers, passengers and just generally regarding traffic laws. Then a large section appears to relate to privacy issues and leaking of data and abusing data. They are apparently also discriminating against disabled people (which taxi companies are not allowed to do, but UBER apparently can since in that regard they are not a taxi company but some other euphemism).
One is left with that they are basically abusing a vacuum in the law that was written in an era long before them and the law just have not caught up and they are fighting tooth and nail so it doesn't so they can keep skating around as it suits them.
(Score: 2) by canopic jug on Thursday July 14 2022, @01:59PM
On top of that, they've been doing a lot of illegal lobbying. The methods of lobbying are not right but also who does the lobbying is not right either. One case illustrating the later, is of former EU Commissioner Neelie Kroes [theguardian.com]. She was rather good for the first part of her career but quickly appeared to become highly corrupt much later on.
Money is not free speech. Elections should not be auctions.
(Score: 3, Insightful) by turgid on Thursday July 14 2022, @02:00PM (5 children)
The gig economy is a huge retrograde step back nearly 100 years before modern workers' protections were introduced. It's just another way to exploit the vulnerable to make a quick buck. Quality costs money.
I refuse to engage in a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent [wikipedia.org].
(Score: 1) by khallow on Saturday July 16 2022, @01:13AM (4 children)
When you could work at the factory when you felt like it and just not show up for years, if that was your whim? Sure.
(Score: 2) by turgid on Saturday July 16 2022, @08:34AM (3 children)
Yes, you could chose to starve or the factory owner could chose for you to starve as well.
I refuse to engage in a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent [wikipedia.org].
(Score: 1) by khallow on Saturday July 16 2022, @10:31AM (2 children)
(Score: 2) by turgid on Sunday July 17 2022, @08:14AM (1 child)
It doesn't work like that. For many gig economy workers, it's their only source of income. The other problem is that, when people regularly start needing second and third jobs, it means inflation is out of control. Prices are spiralling upward. The people then pay the higher prices, so the prices go up even higher. People are trapped in poverty. It's supply and demand. It's why housing is always just that little bit too expensive without state intervention. Everyone needs a home.
I refuse to engage in a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent [wikipedia.org].
(Score: 1) by khallow on Sunday July 17 2022, @12:48PM
My point is that it does work exactly like that.
So what? It doesn't have to be their only source. There are multiple advantages to gig work that are ignored here. And a big one is that it fits nicely around an existing job. You don't have to worry about losing one of your jobs because you have to be at both at the same time.
While that is in part true, such as due to living in high cost of living areas, you don't make it better by sabotaging the fixes. Gig work is a glaring example [soylentnews.org] of reducing those costs. In that link, I discuss how Uber and other competitors brought down the price of ride hailing with the concrete example of taxi medallions in New York City. NYC artificially reduces the number of taxis by requiring that you own a "medallion" in order to operate a taxi in the city. This artificial oligopoly became lucrative enough that medallions were priced over a million dollars in 2014. They later crashed to $80k in 2021. That reflects a genuine reduction in cost of traveling in NYC.
My take is that the cost of living is hard to control. It's a result of several factors, some free market like lots of people wanting to live in nice places, to authoritarian - like zoning and regulating where people can live and work - to corrupt like artificially restricting taxis for profit. Gig work has done some impressive work in attacking some of the latter two.