Idiots like J-Mo aren't equipped to handle Popper's Paradox of Tolerance.
There is no paradox of tolerance. Let's recall what Popper actually wrote on the paradox:
Less well known is the paradox of tolerance: Unlimited tolerance must lead to the disappearance of tolerance. If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them.βββIn this formulation, I do not imply, for instance, that we should always suppress the utterance of intolerant philosophies; as long as we can counter them by rational argument and keep them in check by public opinion, suppression would certainly be unwise. But we should claim the right to suppress them if necessary even by force; for it may easily turn out that they are not prepared to meet us on the level of rational argument, but begin by denouncing all argument; they may forbid their followers to listen to rational argument, because it is deceptive, and teach them to answer arguments by the use of their fists or pistols. We should therefore claim, in the name of tolerance, the right not to tolerate the intolerant.
Tolerating intolerant beliefs doesn't imply that one tolerates murder in the streets. While there may be ameliorating context outside of this paragraph, Popper commits a serious slippery slope fallacy here that tolerating intolerant beliefs then segues into tolerating physical attacks and such even though by no stretch of the imagination are they legitimate means of discourse, and then equates any flavor of intolerant belief with the subset of intolerance that settles disagreement with violence. Finally, he doesn't consider how this intolerance can be abused. I think we're seeing a taste of it today, where rival beliefs can be declared to be "intolerant" (often without regard for the content of the beliefs) and hence, fair game for preemptive intolerance.
That I think is the paradox of intolerance of intolerance. Once you do it, you and your beliefs fall solidly in the category of things against which you are supposedly intolerant. You should be intolerant of yourself and your beliefs! Not going to happen in practice, of course.
Instead a far better approach (one which I might add has been rather successful with respect to dealing with discrimination in the workplace) is to tolerate the belief, but don't tolerate the observable, harmful behavior. That eliminates most of the Orwellian facets of the Popper approach. Often it also means that you don't have to care what people believe. If someone assaults another, it doesn't matter what either of them believed (except perhaps as a means to further demonstrate guilt of the attacker in court).
Let's consider that quote a bit. First, I'm quoting it out of context so there might be some nuance I'm missing. But so has everyone else who brings it up. My rebuttal is to the bare argument, but I think that reasonable given that no one else goes any further.
The core of my rebuttal is in the paragraph after the above quote. There are three serious flaws in the quote that need to be considered. First, a slippery slope argument that assumes the presence of intolerance will eventually avalanche into widespread intolerance. A rival viewpoint here is that exposure to tolerance can make the intolerant more tolerant.
Second, there is an conflation of intolerance with violence. However, this doesn't explain cultures that are intolerant in various non-violent ways. For example, there are a variety of pacifist, isolationist religions (for example, Amish and Hutterites). They qualify as intolerant since they eschew a great of contact with the outside world, but that intolerance never rises to the level of violence, much less the "fists and pistols" of the Popper narrative.
Finally, is the whole problem with this idea, the paradox of intolerance of intolerance. Sorry, just because your bigotry is against some out-group that happens to be intolerant (or worse, wrongly perceived to be intolerant) just means that you're engaging in the very same intolerance. It's not only hypocritical, it's continuing the problem.
My take is that engagement is the better approach. Consider this. Every wacko cult follows similar playbooks: they isolate their followers from the rest of the world so that everyone is in the same screwy environment. Only the true believers are allowed to interact with the outside world in any way. Many other intolerant beliefs operate in the same way - creating an "us versus them" mythology, echo chambers, and similar means to cut off the believers from exposure to experiences that could undermine the beliefs. The strategy of intolerance versus such believers enforces this isolation. It makes the problems of intolerance worse.
So not only is the paradox of tolerance critically flawed on multiple levels, it makes the basic problem of intolerance worse.
(Score: 2) by janrinok on Thursday July 14 2022, @10:02PM (7 children)
I haven't supported Fox's actions in doxxing a doctor. So I cannot have used it as a defence. Fox, Trump, Representatives all repeat the same things that Runaway posts in his journal. As unpleasant as that my be, it is legal. The rest of your argument falls flat as it is based on a false premise, namely that I support the doxxing of a doctor - which I do not.
(Score: -1, Flamebait) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday July 14 2022, @11:04PM (6 children)
Your defence was "Fox does it" therefore the doxxing they have done is fair game by your logic. You've already buried yourself by appealing to legality, but I'm sure enough people will soothe your ego with "ari doxxing bad" that you'll forget or stop caring that your hypocrisy is very evident.
If runaway's pro-terrorism speech is fine because legally Fox does the same thing, than ari's doxxing is fine because Fox does the same thing. You seem incapable of saying "I don't care if runaway posts death threats." All your excuses fall flat when it is keeps coming down to your own judgment call after your legality excuses fail.
To be clear, I do not support either activity and just want consistent application of rules. Doxxing is bad, instigating mass murder is worse.
(Score: 2) by janrinok on Friday July 15 2022, @04:09AM (5 children)
Please point out where I mentioned Fox News. I didn't. You introduced it.
I said TV stations. I did not say I supported any doxxing actions by anybody. There is only one person on this site who has supported doxxing. It wasn't me.
(Score: -1, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Monday July 18 2022, @07:38PM (4 children)
Got it.
Doxxing is not allowed.
Genocidal threats are free speech and nithing you can do about it.
That clears things up, thanks.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday July 19 2022, @07:06PM (3 children)
Oooh the trolls are angry janrinok's hypocrisy is pointed out. Is the point of SN to allow fascist rhetoric under the guise of free speech? I can't figure out any other interpretation. Almost pulled it off since everyone hates doxxing, but pretty sure killing 50 million progressives is worse than someone knowing where Runaway1956 lives. Janrinok stated in other threads that Republican politicians routinely spout such evil yet are not arrested for it, so Runaway's threat must be tolerated. Then Fox News doxxes a doctor so janrinok's logic got turned on its head. He either must admit doxxing is fine since he allows genicidal threats, or he buries himself deeper in denials saying he never mentioned Fox, and is technically correct since it was in a different thread. My bad, he still admits the reality but will not back down on ari's ban or ban runaway the nazi. Terrible stuff for SN.
(Score: 1) by khallow on Wednesday July 20 2022, @04:16AM (2 children)
Well, how often does Runaway do that? If he's killing 50 million progressives every weekend, then that's excessive and he really should cut back.
(Score: -1, Troll) by metatarchus on Friday July 29 2022, @12:39AM (1 child)
khallow and janrinok support white supremacism, by proxy if not directly.
(Score: 1) by khallow on Friday July 29 2022, @01:04AM