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IEEE Spectrum has a story on research into graphene which shows protons can pass through the material. One of the key properties of graphene was that it was previously thought to be impermeable to gases and liquids:
But as Geim and his colleagues discovered, in research that was published in the journal Nature, monolayers of graphene and boron nitride are highly permeable to thermal protons under ambient conditions. So hydrogen atoms stripped of their electrons could pass right through the one-atom-thick materials.
This has significant applications in fuel cells, since proton exchange membrane fuel cells require a barrier that only passes protons, and this discovery could be used to improve the efficiency of existing designs. However in addition to this it could also allow the cells to extract hydrogen directly from humid air
It is conceivable, based on this research, that hydrogen production could be combined with the fuel cell itself to make what would amount to a mobile electric generator fueled simply by hydrogen present in air.
“When you know how it should work, it is a very simple setup,” said Marcelo Lozada-Hidalgo, a PhD student and corresponding author of this paper, in a press release. “You put a hydrogen-containing gas on one side, apply a small electric current, and collect pure hydrogen on the other side. This hydrogen can then be burned in a fuel cell.”
Additional detail is available at Science Daily and in the original press release from the University of Manchester.
(Score: 1) by RedGreen on Thursday December 04 2014, @06:44PM
This is no perpetual motion scheme the membrane according to this idea will only allow the hydrogen to pass through it not the oxygen attached so you end up with the freed H2 in the water left over for use in powering the engine. No electricity is used to break down the water only the membrane is needed to get the fuel.
"I modded down, down, down, and the flames went higher." -- Sven Olsen
(Score: 2) by maxwell demon on Thursday December 04 2014, @07:24PM
If the hydrogen would leave the oxygen and pass through the membrane without any energy source providing the necessary energy, it would indeed be a perpetuum mobile:
Step 1: Extract the hydrogen from the water in the air with the membrane, without consuming energy. Note that the oxygen is left in the air because it can't pass the membrane.
Step 2: Burn the hydrogen with oxygen from the air to produce water, resupplying the water in the air, and releasing energy. Note that the resulting water is in the air, as part of the humidity of the air.
You see, there's no step requiring energy, bvut a step releasing energy. The exact definition of a perpetuum mobile. Even of the first type (i.e. violating the first law of thermodynamics, energy conservation).
Since we know that you cannot violate energy conservation, we must concxlude that one of the steps above is not possible. And since we know that step 2 is completely possible, it must be step 1 that isn't.
In other words, you cannot extract hydrogen from the humidity in the air without adding energy. At least as much energy as the burning step releases.
The Tao of math: The numbers you can count are not the real numbers.
(Score: 1) by RedGreen on Thursday December 04 2014, @09:34PM
Obviously no clue how osmosis works then it does not require energy only the membrane.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osmosis [wikipedia.org]
"I modded down, down, down, and the flames went higher." -- Sven Olsen
(Score: 2) by maxwell demon on Thursday December 04 2014, @10:32PM
Obviously you have no clue about the difference between a mixture and a chemical bond.
The Tao of math: The numbers you can count are not the real numbers.
(Score: 1) by RedGreen on Thursday December 04 2014, @11:08PM
From the article clown.
"This latest development alters the understanding of one of the key properties of graphene: that it is impermeable to all gases and liquids. Even an atom as small as hydrogen would need billions of years for it to pass through the dense electronic cloud of graphene. In fact, it is this impermeability that has made it attractive for use in gas separation membranes.
But as Geim and his colleagues discovered, in research that was published in the journal Nature, monolayers of graphene and boron nitride are highly permeable to thermal protons under ambient conditions. So hydrogen atoms stripped of their electrons could pass right through the one-atom-thick materials.
The surprising discovery that protons could breach these materials means that that they could be used in proton-conducting membranes (also known as proton exchange membranes), which are central to the functioning of fuel cells. Fuel cells operate through chemical reactions involving hydrogen fuel and oxygen, with the result being electrical energy. The membranes used in the fuel cells are impermeable to oxygen and hydrogen but allow for the passage of protons."
Which describes an osmotic process happening with this material ie. material from one side passes to the other in case your reading comprehension is as useless as your comments... PLONK!
"I modded down, down, down, and the flames went higher." -- Sven Olsen
(Score: 2) by maxwell demon on Thursday December 04 2014, @11:18PM
But that paragraph does not describe the extraction of hydrogen from air moisture.
Maybe you should work on your reading comprehension.
The Tao of math: The numbers you can count are not the real numbers.
(Score: 2) by morgauxo on Tuesday December 09 2014, @05:29PM
How can hydrogen, bound in a water molecule pass through the membrane without it's oxygen but not require energy? Wouldn't that require breaking the bond?
(Score: 2) by maxwell demon on Tuesday December 09 2014, @06:57PM
Exactly. And breaking the bond requires energy.
The Tao of math: The numbers you can count are not the real numbers.