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posted by janrinok on Wednesday January 25 2023, @03:02PM   Printer-friendly
from the circle-of-life dept.

https://pluralistic.net/2023/01/21/potemkin-ai/#hey-guys

Here is how platforms die: first, they are good to their users; then they abuse their users to make things better for their business customers; finally, they abuse those business customers to claw back all the value for themselves. Then, they die.

I call this enshittification, and it is a seemingly inevitable consequence arising from the combination of the ease of changing how a platform allocates value, combined with the nature of a "two sided market," where a platform sits between buyers and sellers, hold each hostage to the other, raking off an ever-larger share of the value that passes between them.

[...] Search Amazon for "cat beds" and the entire first screen is ads, including ads for products Amazon cloned from its own sellers, putting them out of business (third parties have to pay 45% in junk fees to Amazon, but Amazon doesn't charge itself these fees). All told, the first five screens of results for "cat bed" are 50% ads.

This is enshittification: surpluses are first directed to users; then, once they're locked in, surpluses go to suppliers; then once they're locked in, the surplus is handed to shareholders and the platform becomes a useless pile of shit. From mobile app stores to Steam, from Facebook to Twitter, this is the enshittification lifecycle.


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  • (Score: 3, Interesting) by JoeMerchant on Wednesday January 25 2023, @06:21PM (35 children)

    by JoeMerchant (3937) on Wednesday January 25 2023, @06:21PM (#1288564)

    Well, there's the old competitive market problem of: everybody else is doing it, so we have to do it in order to compete / survive economically.

    Imagine a world with UBI, where people do things because they want to, not because they need money for food or rent or their 2nd Gulfstream V... I wonder if you can.

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  • (Score: 3, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday January 25 2023, @06:48PM (15 children)

    by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday January 25 2023, @06:48PM (#1288567)

    We have allowed Capital to rule our societies. If you are born correctly, you already have UBI and more. Apparently those with genetically-endowed UBI like nothing more than... fucking over people who do not. It seems to be an acquired taste, or perhaps a psychiatric affliction, of the useless idle rich who need validation in the form of seeing other people suffer more than them, since that proves how much better off they are.

    • (Score: 5, Funny) by JoeMerchant on Wednesday January 25 2023, @07:42PM (3 children)

      by JoeMerchant (3937) on Wednesday January 25 2023, @07:42PM (#1288580)

      Just missing the meaning of U, it's like Oprah: "U get enough money to live, and you get enough money to live, and you get enough money to live, and you get enough money to live, EVERYBODY gets enough money to live." Universal.

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      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday January 25 2023, @08:35PM (2 children)

        by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday January 25 2023, @08:35PM (#1288592)

        Well, forgive me, I was imagining why we have to imagine it.

        • (Score: 2) by JoeMerchant on Wednesday January 25 2023, @09:01PM (1 child)

          by JoeMerchant (3937) on Wednesday January 25 2023, @09:01PM (#1288595)

          Because we don't have the U yet, not even on a state much less national level. I mean, O.K. Alaska has the Permanent fund and that is universal for people who spend 6+ months resident in state, but that's both unreliable in it's amount and hardly starts to make up for the increased costs of living in the great frozen North. Take the Alaska Permanent fund and push that up to $15K per year per person, reliable, throughout the state of Alaska, and see how that changes things. Right now the AK permanent fund payout typically only runs $1K-$2K per year. Average heating costs in Fairbanks run over $6K per year. Now, make that U across the whole US of A at $15K per person per year and see what happens...

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          • (Score: 1, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday January 25 2023, @09:21PM

            by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday January 25 2023, @09:21PM (#1288598)

            I suspect we will go on hearing the sob stories of orange-haired cry babies, with silver spoons cascading out of their pouty mouths, who haven't been allowed to be Pwesident or Kingy Wingy.

    • (Score: 1, Insightful) by khallow on Thursday January 26 2023, @12:06AM (10 children)

      by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Thursday January 26 2023, @12:06AM (#1288616) Journal

      We have allowed Capital to rule our societies.

      It's like saying you allow food and water to rule your life. There are some things that are necessary for a society to exist and function at any level, even that of living in a cave. Capital is one of those things. So is labor whether from human sources or not.

      If you are born correctly, you already have UBI and more.

      Or if you work. That's why I'm not interested in UBI. This is already a solved problem.

      • (Score: 5, Insightful) by Azuma Hazuki on Thursday January 26 2023, @07:28AM (9 children)

        by Azuma Hazuki (5086) on Thursday January 26 2023, @07:28AM (#1288668) Journal

        Fire is necessary too, but look what happens when fires run out of control. You're either deliberately strawmanning what the GP said, in which case you're evil, or you're too dumb to understand it, in which case you shouldn't be posting here. Myself, I'm learning toward "you're evil," given you don't seem to be lacking points in INT. WIS, for sure, but not INT.

        --
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        • (Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday January 26 2023, @06:26PM (4 children)

          by Anonymous Coward on Thursday January 26 2023, @06:26PM (#1288752)

          I'll respond to you, since the other poster is arguing in bad faith (equating Trump's twitter ban with actual political repression, pffft get lost twat).

          Capital amassed by inheritance (or corruption) stifles innovation. A large fraction of our population are indebted from birth - Original Sin, if you like - while those blessed in the Lamb of inherited wealth, whose main talent is to ignore their privilege, throw tantrums about the tardiness of the server bringing their caviar.

          • (Score: 1, Disagree) by khallow on Friday January 27 2023, @01:59PM (3 children)

            by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Friday January 27 2023, @01:59PM (#1288909) Journal

            equating Trump's twitter ban with actual political repression, pffft get lost twat

            Truth is an absolute defense against such accusations.

            Capital amassed by inheritance (or corruption) stifles innovation. A large fraction of our population are indebted from birth - Original Sin, if you like - while those blessed in the Lamb of inherited wealth, whose main talent is to ignore their privilege, throw tantrums about the tardiness of the server bringing their caviar.

            And of course, nothing relevant to the thread. Typical class warfare bullshit. UBI wouldn't solve such problems since the rich would still be richer and have that attitude, and the clueless could still borrow more money than they can afford.

            • (Score: 2) by hendrikboom on Saturday January 28 2023, @06:32PM (2 children)

              by hendrikboom (1125) Subscriber Badge on Saturday January 28 2023, @06:32PM (#1289099) Homepage Journal

              Truth is an absolute defense against such accusations.

              Only when the one presenting said truth is believed.

              • (Score: 1) by khallow on Saturday January 28 2023, @07:45PM (1 child)

                by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Saturday January 28 2023, @07:45PM (#1289112) Journal

                Only when the one presenting said truth is believed.

                Because truth is only true when it's "believed"? Well, I believe it. Box is checked.

        • (Score: 0, Troll) by khallow on Friday January 27 2023, @01:55PM (3 children)

          by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Friday January 27 2023, @01:55PM (#1288908) Journal

          Fire is necessary too, but look what happens when fires run out of control.

          Nothing is technically out of control yet. And sorry, with all these controls on capital (including a bunch of market based ones), I don't buy that it'll be the first to go out of control.

          You're either deliberately strawmanning what the GP said, in which case you're evil, or you're too dumb to understand it, in which case you shouldn't be posting here.

          Nonsense. The post I replied to was a real, brazen straw man. They even capitalized Capital. Here's the obvious rebuttal to that post. If the rich really were as bad as that poster claimed, then why would we want to make everyone else like them via UBI? There's inherent contradictions in a lot of these narratives that happen because people aren't thinking, just like that poster was.

          • (Score: 3, Informative) by Azuma Hazuki on Sunday January 29 2023, @09:30PM (2 children)

            by Azuma Hazuki (5086) on Sunday January 29 2023, @09:30PM (#1289208) Journal

            "We" do not want to make "everyone else like [the rich]" via UBI you disingenuous little shit. "We" want people not to have to fucking worry about homelessness, death by freezing in an unheated home, or lack of food via UBI. Go to Hell.

            --
            I am "that girl" your mother warned you about...
            • (Score: 0, Flamebait) by khallow on Sunday January 29 2023, @09:43PM (1 child)

              by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Sunday January 29 2023, @09:43PM (#1289211) Journal

              "We" do not want to make "everyone else like [the rich]" via UBI you disingenuous little shit.

              Well, I guess the original poster shouldn't have written:

              If you are born correctly, you already have UBI and more. Apparently those with genetically-endowed UBI like nothing more than... fucking over people who do not. It seems to be an acquired taste, or perhaps a psychiatric affliction, of the useless idle rich who need validation in the form of seeing other people suffer more than them, since that proves how much better off they are.

              On your post:

              "We" want people not to have to fucking worry about homelessness, death by freezing in an unheated home, or lack of food via UBI.

              Given that most people don't have to fucking worry about homelessness, death by freezing in an unheated home, or lack of food, I'm going with needs-based entitlements as being better tools. Particularly I bet we'll still see a lot of people make the sort of bad decisions, like borrowing against their UBI income for frivolous stuff, that will cause such worries.

              • (Score: 3, Insightful) by Azuma Hazuki on Monday January 30 2023, @04:26AM

                by Azuma Hazuki (5086) on Monday January 30 2023, @04:26AM (#1289241) Journal

                You really have no idea how bad it is in this country do you? Shut up and go away already. You don't know what you're talking about, as usual.

                --
                I am "that girl" your mother warned you about...
  • (Score: 4, Interesting) by GloomMower on Wednesday January 25 2023, @07:25PM (5 children)

    by GloomMower (17961) on Wednesday January 25 2023, @07:25PM (#1288573)

    > Imagine a world with UBI, where people do things because they want to, not because they need money for food or rent or their 2nd Gulfstream V... I wonder if you can.

    I do wonder, and I like the idea. In my wondering...

    I don't think it's goal is what you say. A lot of the time UBI is just high enough that you don't have to fear starving. So there would still be incentives to get the 2nd gulfstream, because you can't on UBI. If you give people enough UBI that they live really darn good that almost no one would want to work, if it did then...

    Who is going to farm the food, or build buildings you live in? People that want extra than UBI offers? Does UBI change depending on what people say they need? Can you really do the things you want to do if no one is making the things you want? If I want to play video games but no one is making them, or are there only hobby video games now? Or if I like to paint, but who is making the paint and canvas?

    UBI only work in the future with robots doing everything? What about the stuff robots can't do, or who makes improvements?

    I like UBI, but always assumed it would be tied to worker demand. When worker demand is low UBI would be higher, and that is a good time to go to school to learn stuff or do your hobby, get skills with worker-demand is back to high again. When worker-demand is high then UBI is low.

    Ends up being very complicated. I'm sure there are different kinds of UBI, have you read many good economic models how it all works, at least maybe the ones that are more than just subsistence UBI, or ever read anything about a UBI that you get two gulfstreams?

    • (Score: 3, Interesting) by JoeMerchant on Wednesday January 25 2023, @08:00PM (4 children)

      by JoeMerchant (3937) on Wednesday January 25 2023, @08:00PM (#1288586)

      >A lot of the time UBI is just high enough that you don't have to fear starving. So there would still be incentives to get the 2nd gulfstream, because you can't on UBI.

      Sure, and I think that's a very good way of rating a society: do you simply not fear starving in that society, or do you truly have enough freedom to build, create and explore? Note: UBI doesn't mean nobody works, people still want that Cessna Citation (faster than the G5) so they're gonna work to get it. The thing is: they'll be operating in an environment where they can't get people to come do their bidding just because those people can't afford food, or rent, or healthcare...

      >Who is going to farm the food, or build buildings you live in?

      People who want more than what UBI provides, which I suspect is pretty much everyone at some level. UBI doesn't provide much in the way of feelings of self worth or belonging, which is what a lot of people get out of work - or volunteering.

      >Does UBI change depending on what people say they need?

      In my mind, no, and that would be the beautiful justice of it: no rules, no tests, no bureaucratic administration, simple test: one living legal citizen? If so: one income stream to you or your legal guardian. I do believe there would need to be dis-incentives to overpopulation, no more UBI after 1st child per parent for instance.

      >Can you really do the things you want to do if no one is making the things you want?

      So, the transition will be ticklish - and fraught with fraud - but picture UBI starting at $1 per day per person and slowly increasing from there. Where's the incentive for people to stop making the things you want? At some point we get the "great resignation" where we can't get people to work in Taco Bell for $8 per hour anymore, and Taco Bell adjusts to that - or dies. Is Taco Bell then replaced by Tito's Taco Tavern, where Tito from Tijuana and his wife Hilda from Hamburg make Tacos and sell traditional German beer, and maybe they lose a little money some months because they're not competitive with Taco Bell (until it dies), but that's O.K. because they still have enough UBI coming in to meet their other monetary needs? Personally, I'd rather live in a world of 10,000 unique (safe and regulated, independently and reliably reviewed) restaurants like Tito's Taco Tavern and maybe a lot less Taco Bells...

      >When worker demand is low UBI would be higher

      Some of that is inevitable, but a reliable level of UBI is also a key component, providing security, assurance that you will be able to do the things you are planning (like eating, and sleeping with a roof over your head...)

      >I'm sure there are different kinds of UBI

      I'm sure within the current system that UBI will become complicated, corrupt, and far from fair at its initial rollout, but maybe if the benefits are clear enough anyway it might make it something that people are willing to fight for.

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      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday January 26 2023, @01:27AM (3 children)

        by Anonymous Coward on Thursday January 26 2023, @01:27AM (#1288623)

        Assuming there was enough confidence in UBI being around till you hit retirement age, UBI would provide safety nets for would-be entrepreneurs, so we might see people start more "diverse" businesses. Mark Zuckerberg had a dad who was rich and generous enough to offer him a McD franchise: https://www.cnbc.com/2019/02/06/mark-zuckerbergs-dad-offered-him-college-or-a-mcdonalds-franchise.html [cnbc.com]

        You might see more books and "low end" games being produced too.

        • (Score: 2) by JoeMerchant on Thursday January 26 2023, @03:12AM (2 children)

          by JoeMerchant (3937) on Thursday January 26 2023, @03:12AM (#1288644)

          >UBI would provide safety nets for would-be entrepreneurs, so we might see people start more "diverse" businesses.

          I think this would be one of the best / most interesting aspects of such a future.

          If you look at the "wisdom of the ages" from Plato through Galileo, DaVinci, Newton, etc. the authors/inventors/writers all had one thing in common: their basic costs of living provided for.

          For every great enduring invention or idea handed down from a crop picker working all their days in the fields, there are 100s, perhaps 1000s that come from the aristocrats of their day, or people relatively comfortably employed by those aristocrats to do the creative work.

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          • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday January 26 2023, @08:31AM (1 child)

            by Anonymous Coward on Thursday January 26 2023, @08:31AM (#1288679)

            So there's 2 ways to take this.

            * One way says the talent available to further humanity is limited by opportunity.

            * The other says the best talent rose to the top in a competitive environment.

            Guess which society inheritees believe in?

            • (Score: 2) by JoeMerchant on Saturday January 28 2023, @08:52PM

              by JoeMerchant (3937) on Saturday January 28 2023, @08:52PM (#1289120)

              Of course it's a bit of both, but in my view there's plenty of talent out there that gets stifled by a lack of opportunity. The competitive environment merely kicks out some of the absolute imbeciles who can't "make it happen" in their roles, giving the next in line a chance to try - but ignoring thousands of others who might do it better but have no opportunity to try. That's why the relative independence (freedom) of UBI would be so great for innovation.

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  • (Score: 1) by khallow on Wednesday January 25 2023, @07:33PM (12 children)

    by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Wednesday January 25 2023, @07:33PM (#1288576) Journal

    Imagine a world with UBI, where people do things because they want to, not because they need money for food or rent or their 2nd Gulfstream V... I wonder if you can.

    I imagine they could watch some really great TV and keep a really nice sofa warm. Then they would vote for this great guy who will promise them more UBI though he's a bit nebulous on how. And the enshittification of modern society would continue.

    • (Score: 5, Touché) by JoeMerchant on Wednesday January 25 2023, @08:02PM (11 children)

      by JoeMerchant (3937) on Wednesday January 25 2023, @08:02PM (#1288587)

      >I imagine they could watch some really great TV and keep a really nice sofa warm.

      We all know the limits of your imagination.

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      • (Score: 4, Insightful) by khallow on Wednesday January 25 2023, @11:20PM (10 children)

        by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Wednesday January 25 2023, @11:20PM (#1288605) Journal

        I imagine they could watch some really great TV and keep a really nice sofa warm.

        We all know the limits of your imagination.

        We all know the limits of UBI too. It's not going make great people out of couch potatoes - because we have similar programs today and well, they don't do much for us. The "we'd do great things if only someone would give us a piddling amount of money per month" is nonsense.

        • (Score: 4, Insightful) by JoeMerchant on Wednesday January 25 2023, @11:46PM (9 children)

          by JoeMerchant (3937) on Wednesday January 25 2023, @11:46PM (#1288608)

          >because we have similar programs today and well, they don't do much for us.

          In your mind. First problem with the programs you refer to is that they require recipients to be verifiable couch potatoes or risk conviction on federal felony fraud charges. Then we can talk about the army of administrative bureaucrats that are paid gatekeepers for the program which provides no security to non couch potatoes.

          Change that and you will see vastly different results from the program.

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          • (Score: 1, Disagree) by khallow on Thursday January 26 2023, @12:17AM (8 children)

            by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Thursday January 26 2023, @12:17AM (#1288617) Journal

            In your mind. First problem with the programs you refer to is that they require recipients to be verifiable couch potatoes or risk conviction on federal felony fraud charges. Then we can talk about the army of administrative bureaucrats that are paid gatekeepers for the program which provides no security to non couch potatoes.

            First, such programs as you refer to are still cheaper than UBI. Need-based is funny that way - you're only paying for a small number of people rather than everyone. Second, we have pension funds as the UBI equivalent which are not needs based. You don't have to achieve couch potato status or even stop working in a lot of cases. There's a few interesting retirees out there, but for the most part it's just a mass of people who aren't doing much. I don't mind people who worked hard and now don't. But I don't want to pay people to become couch potatoes. That's harmful in two ways, both as an utter waste of my money and as a great harm to people who are encouraged to just sit around.

            • (Score: 2) by JoeMerchant on Thursday January 26 2023, @02:29AM (7 children)

              by JoeMerchant (3937) on Thursday January 26 2023, @02:29AM (#1288636)

              What part of "you're financially secure enough to go back to school or otherwise take the time required to find a better job" is encouraging people to just sit around?

              If someone is so lazy that their true ambition is to toke up on the sofa and watch endless television entertainment, I'm pretty sure I'd rather have somebody else as a co-worker anyway.

              The real fears of UBI come from the old sermons: "Idle hands are the Devil's workshop" and all that, but the silent minority has learned to hold their tongues about such things when they might mark themselves as religious nutjobs at a time when religious nutjobs aren't in control.

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              • (Score: 1) by khallow on Thursday January 26 2023, @03:24AM (6 children)

                by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Thursday January 26 2023, @03:24AM (#1288645) Journal

                What part of "you're financially secure enough to go back to school or otherwise take the time required to find a better job" is encouraging people to just sit around?

                The whole thing. If you're that financially secure, you're secure enough to sit around.

                • (Score: 2, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday January 26 2023, @08:34AM (3 children)

                  by Anonymous Coward on Thursday January 26 2023, @08:34AM (#1288680)

                  Have we run into the limits of imagination again?

                  • (Score: 1) by khallow on Thursday January 26 2023, @02:11PM (2 children)

                    by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Thursday January 26 2023, @02:11PM (#1288699) Journal
                    Indeed, but not on my part. We have this game played all the time. Capability != what people actually do. Reminds me of people buying a fancy sports car. The car can do all kinds of amazing things, but you'll get pulled over/arrested, and/or lose control of the vehicle at an inopportune moment because you're racing on a normal road with normal drivers not the highly controlled circumstances of a specialized race track. The capability of the sports car can't be realized.

                    Here, we have similar issues. And I know we do, because we already have income. It may not be basic, but it is pretty close to universal (around 58% [statista.com]in the US in 2021). This magic you speak of hasn't happened yet which indicates to me that it won't happen with UBI either. It's just a fantasy driving this.

                    Finally, the elephant in this room is who will pay for it and how will we control negative effects like increased inflation and debt? Glancing through US spending, there's only about $3 trillion (mostly Social Security) that can be theoretically replaced at present. JoeMerchant's proposal of $15k per would generate about $5 trillion in new spending (over 330 million citizens roughly). So right there, even if things go without a hitch, we've increased spending by about $2 trillion per year (40% increase). And we've created two additional problems: what happens when someone promises more UBI and gets elected? Each additional $3k is another trillion USD in spending per year. There's now an incentive for voters to vote for their interests and against the future of the US (or other developed world country).

                    What happens with mundane things like inflation - while I've heard it might be going down, it was 8% for a bit, that's $400 billion in baked in spending increase for a single year of UBI, if you want it to keep up with that level of inflation. And it doesn't help with medical cost increases (from Medicare in particular) which are set to soak up many trillions in US federal spending in future years.

                    Given that US government spending is already a significant contributor to inflation, we've put in a positive feedback mechanism for inflation. By itself UBI won't cause runaway hyperinflation, but historically when a government does one big dumb thing, it usually does many others. This reduces our room for error, all for terrible reasons.

                    Rather than build a fragile society with a bunch of couch potatoes, how about we build a resilient society that can handle the troubles and disasters that a society routinely faces?
                    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday January 26 2023, @06:29PM (1 child)

                      by Anonymous Coward on Thursday January 26 2023, @06:29PM (#1288753)

                      > who will pay for it

                      The same people who pay 50% of all income to 1% of the population.

                      • (Score: 1) by khallow on Thursday January 26 2023, @06:45PM

                        by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Thursday January 26 2023, @06:45PM (#1288759) Journal

                        The same people who pay 50% of all income to 1% of the population.

                        Here's hoping other people get the clue too.

                • (Score: 2) by JoeMerchant on Thursday January 26 2023, @01:31PM (1 child)

                  by JoeMerchant (3937) on Thursday January 26 2023, @01:31PM (#1288693)

                  >If you're that financially secure, you're secure enough to sit around.

                  True, but looking at the adult offspring of the wealthy, they don't seem to be sitting around doing nothing in any greater proportion than the rest of us.

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                  • (Score: 1) by khallow on Friday January 27 2023, @01:38PM

                    by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Friday January 27 2023, @01:38PM (#1288902) Journal

                    True, but looking at the adult offspring of the wealthy, they don't seem to be sitting around doing nothing in any greater proportion than the rest of us.

                    There seems to be some disagreement [soylentnews.org] about that.

                    Playing golf and drinking martinis is not working. That's the way you do it, money for nothing, and chicks for free. (D. Trump theory of economic justice)

                    And another effect that bears mentioning. We already have UBI in the form of pensions. And an interesting social phenomenon emerged - the idea that one could stop working became acceptable everywhere. Suddenly there was this thing called "retirement" which everyone could do.