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from the stop-treating-medical-issues-as-legal-problems dept.
The old rat-with-drug-laced-water "experiment" is a sham. The only choice the rat in the empty cage has is drinking plain water or drinking drugged water. They never show you a CONTROL where there is a rat with a cage full of cool rat toys and rat friends.
Johann Hari reports via Alternet:
The opposite of addiction is not sobriety. It is human connection. [...] just 17.7 percent of cigarette smokers are able to stop [smoking by] using nicotine patches.
[...]Nearly 15 years ago, Portugal had one of the worst drug problems in Europe [...] They decided to do something radically different. They resolved to decriminalize all drugs and transfer all the money they used to spend on arresting and jailing drug addicts and spend it instead on reconnecting them--to their own feelings and to the wider society.
[...]The [sic] most crucial step is to get [addicts] secure housing [as well as] subsidized jobs so they have a purpose in life and something to get out of bed for. I watched as they are helped, in warm and welcoming clinics, to learn how to reconnect with their feelings after years of trauma and stunning them into silence with drugs.
[...]An independent study by the British Journal of Criminology found that, since total decriminalization, addiction has fallen and injecting drug use is down by 50 percent.
[...]The main campaigner against the decriminalization back in 2000 was Joao Figueira, the country's top drug cop. He offered all the dire warnings that we would expect: more crime, more addicts; but when we sat together in Lisbon, he told me that everything he predicted had not come to pass--and he now hopes the whole world will follow Portugal's example.
(Score: 2, Interesting) by Jeremiah Cornelius on Friday February 13 2015, @03:52PM
EXTREMISTS - ejected first from England, then even the Netherlands.
The core extremist, Protestant values and heretical neo-Manichaean morality thrived like a virus - infecting later arrivals, Pole and Cambodian alike.
It is a convenient world view for the maintenance of state and industry based on the ethic of growth: where MORE is a sign of BETTER and growth is morally valued over quality and humanity.
You're betting on the pantomime horse...
(Score: 3, Offtopic) by ikanreed on Friday February 13 2015, @04:12PM
FYI: beliefs aren't genetic. I can be rather certain that I'm descended from at least some of those extremists(ugh you should see my family reunions), but that doesn't mean I've got their belief systems.
(Score: 2) by Jeremiah Cornelius on Friday February 13 2015, @04:28PM
I refer to culture - not genes.
You're betting on the pantomime horse...
(Score: 3, Insightful) by ikanreed on Friday February 13 2015, @05:04PM
Sure, but your topic was "descendants".
(Score: 2) by pnkwarhall on Friday February 13 2015, @05:35PM
It's pretty obvious to me (and I would hope most people) that biological "descendents" tend to share more of a heritage than just genes. In fact, the word 'descendent' is often used to describe relationships based on the passing down of ideas, traditions or other shared traits in many domains, not just people.
Lift Yr Skinny Fists Like Antennas to Heaven
(Score: 2) by Jeremiah Cornelius on Friday February 13 2015, @05:39PM
I distinguish casual use of descendants from that of progeny. :-)
You're betting on the pantomime horse...
(Score: 2) by moondrake on Friday February 13 2015, @06:11PM
So..please can you share your views on the current citizens of Australia [wikipedia.org]?
(Score: 3, Insightful) by Jeremiah Cornelius on Friday February 13 2015, @06:16PM
Descendents of those who wouldn't be content under the yoke?
You're betting on the pantomime horse...
(Score: 1) by BK on Friday February 13 2015, @10:07PM
Not remotely! Because iocane comes from Australia, as everyone knows! And Australia is entirely peopled with criminals...
Classic... [youtube.com]
...but you HAVE heard of me.
(Score: 3, Informative) by sjames on Friday February 13 2015, @10:16PM
Let's see, not over fond of titles and other tall poppies. Not over fond of being told what to do. The sort of things that could get you branded (however unfairly) as a criminal at one time.
(Score: 1, Troll) by ikanreed on Friday February 13 2015, @07:34PM
Sure, but the implication was there, and I hope you can I understand how I misunderstood you.
(Score: 2) by pnkwarhall on Saturday February 14 2015, @03:23AM
I understand your point about beliefs (/culture/mores/etc) not being passed down in the same manner as genes. But your use of the word "beliefs" suggests that your referring to something internal to an individual. An individual's belief is, of course, internal to him, but these beliefs tend to be small but contributing parts of much greater wholes. You may maintain that you don't share the POVs of the "extremist" family members you mention, but I would almost guarantee that you share more "beliefs" and cultural similarities w/ one of them than someone picked at random from the world population.
Society/Culture pass on tons of data -- enough that the nature/nurture debate is still very much alive. You're the "progeny" of many people that you don't have a blood connection with, or even know about!
Lift Yr Skinny Fists Like Antennas to Heaven
(Score: 5, Insightful) by Hairyfeet on Friday February 13 2015, @10:31PM
Uhhhh....isn't culture passed down? And one thing I've noticed is sadly Americans really do not like anybody that needs help, especially men. I saw a study where nearly 50% of homeless men have brain injuries, yet you will hear endless talk about how those mentally handicapped people are nothing but junkies or bums, how they should pull themselves up by their boot straps...like they can just magically rewire their brains to route around the damage!
I find it depressing as hell but here in the USA we have too damned many that have a serious crab bucket mentality,people that will actively vote and support those that have agendas completely opposed to their well being as long as it hurts "the other" equally or worse. Be it bums or "welfare queens", medical care for the poor or child care for single moms, doesn't matter how many studies have shown these programs have some of the lowest rates of cheating and some of the highest returns on investment when it comes to lifting people out of poverty or keeping them out of the ER, it doesn't matter because as long as one.single.person. out there could have "scammed the system"? Then its ALL bad and should be abolished!
I wish we could do something as sensible as what Portugal did but that would mean not treating the addicts as stereotypes but as people and we just can't have that. Hell a billion studies have shown pot is less harmful in every way than booze and prescription meds and look at how much it has taken just to get a handful of states to legalize pot, I seriously doubt I'll live long enough to see it happen nationwide. I wish I could believe its just propaganda from this or that party that keeps these stereotypes and hatred alive, that keeps people against people based on color or status or religion, but I just can't. Instead I keep thinking of the scene from Mississippi Burning where Hackman tells the story of his dad poisoning the mule of his black neighbor, justifying it as "if you can't be better than a nigger son, who can you be better than?". Its like we just can't be happy here unless we are "better" than somebody else and I find that just fucking depressing.
ACs are never seen so don't bother. Always ready to show SJWs for the racists they are.
(Score: 4, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Friday February 13 2015, @11:23PM
I once saw a presentation on child development on educational TV.
There was a simple game with 2 kids and a checkerboard.
To earn a piece of candy, you had to get the single checker on the board to the opposite end of the board, with the kids alternating turns moving the checker.
European kids would help the "opposition" by continuing to move the checker in 1 direction until it had reached that edge, then they reversed the direction.
Each European kid came away with a pile of candy.
The USA kids would do everything possible to prevent the other kid from "scoring".
No American kids got a single piece of candy.
The kids couldn't have been over 6 years old--maybe even 5.
Not only does it exist, it's ingrained early.
-- gewg_
(Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday February 14 2015, @12:11AM
Gonna throw up a "CITATION NEEDED". I'd be willing to bed that those "results" were the result of confirmation bias and a limited sample size.
Also, in order for the children to collude like that to get as much candy as possible requires some level of abstract thinking on both children. Of course age 5-6 is right smack in the middle of the time human children begin to gain the ability to think abstractly. So some children will be capable of seeing how to get the most candy and other will not simply due to what point they are in mental development.
Also, how was the game instructed to both children? Did the same person give the same instructions to both groups using the same script? Were there different languages where differences could make things more or less clear to the children? I can easily see some children misunderstanding and assume the game worked like a regular game of checkers where there is a winner and a loser and both children being winners is not an option..
(Score: 5, Informative) by hoochiecoochieman on Friday February 13 2015, @04:19PM
I'm Portuguese and can attest to the veracity of this story.
However, the attempt to create assisted-injection facilities (like in Scandinavia, where junkies could get shots for free in hygiene and safety) never took of. The right-wing pulled the usual moralistic bullshit and people just went on for the ride. The masses tend to be too emotional and not a little bit rational, and the right-wing masters the manipulation of this. I guess it was better to have junkies robbing people on the street to score heroin and then shooting themselves in front of children. Fortunately, this doesn't happen any more, but in the 80's and 90's it was a nightmare.
One of the most vocal opponents of the decriminalisation was a right-wing douche bag named Paulo Portas. By that time he went on a campaign around the world telling everybody that Portugal would become a shit hole of drug-tourism. Of course, it didn't happen, quite the opposite. The only thing he managed to do was to embarrass his country everywhere, I guess like any good god-fearing right-wing patriot should.
He's our current Vice-Prime-Minister, now. He keeps embarrassing my country.
It's funny that, when the right-wing won the last elections they managed to destroy everything they could get their hands on. But they didn't touch the abortion and the drug-decriminalisation laws, like they always said they would. I know why. The country is already in a social catastrophe, and reverting these two laws would make the State costs skyrocket. They're stupid, but not THAT stupid.
I'm waiting for cannabis to be legalised and stop this head-in-the-sand hypocrisy. It will happen, eventually. But I'm not holding my breath.
(Score: 5, Interesting) by gnuman on Friday February 13 2015, @05:11PM
But they didn't touch the abortion and the drug-decriminalisation laws, like they always said they would.
That's how politicians fly - by the public opinion polls. They will try to sway public opinion every way they can so it matches their views. But they will not commit political suicide by going against it.
If significant amount of people wanted to criminalize abortion and screw over the junkies, that's what would happen. But no one wants that anymore, so politicians drop it. As an example, look at US conservatives and the gay marriage laws. No one talks about gay marriage anymore, because it doesn't affect anyone. Republicans love gays! But when there was a choice to be made, it was completely different.
Conservatives, generally, will try to keep policies they think are "correct" to keep the status quo going. Even if it makes no sense. That's why they love police states.
(Score: 2, Interesting) by khallow on Friday February 13 2015, @07:04PM
Conservatives, generally, will try to keep policies they think are "correct" to keep the status quo going. Even if it makes no sense. That's why they love police states.
Lots of people like to force others to do what is correct, even if it makes no sense. It's not a conservative-only thing. That's why they love police states.
(Score: 5, Informative) by aiwarrior on Friday February 13 2015, @05:29PM
I am Portuguese and I do think your are severely biased in your statements. Plus lots of things are omitted in this article.
First, refuting your argument: As you state correctly Paulo Portas is currently the vice prime minister and I have never heard of any kind of talk regarding the inversion of the current drug policies on this legislature. The shooting booths didn't go ahead because the Portuguese society was not ready for the idea of the state sponsoring facilities and actual drugs to drug addicts.
You certainly do not represent the majority of Portuguese opinion, as after that policy failed to be enacted other governments from the original party have not revived the policy. It was very controversial at the time and you dismissed it in a biased way as simple right leaning propaganda. You are likely an urbanite and I would invite you to go to the more left leaning but rural parts of the country(south of Tejo) and ask around the opinion of those people on having a drug consumption facility in their village. Plus, as the country is politically fairly polarized in north and south, with the north being more right and south generally more left leaning, I also would doubt there would be much support for drug use facilities of the type that were discussed at the time.
Actually the current justice minister, said that she thinks complete depenalization http://www.theportugalnews.com/news/justice-minister-calls-for-light-drug-legalisation-pm-pulls-rug/33951/ [theportugalnews.com] is the way to go. This, further debunks your right wing propaganda statements because the current government is right wing. Plus, you seem to apply the anglo saxonic right wing concept to Portugal and I dare-say southern Europe countries, which is very uninformative for this anglo-saxonic site.
Related to the article, there is slight omission. Drugs in Portugal are NOT legal. Selling drugs is a crime. What is not penalized is the consumption, thus tackling the problem of marginalization of drug addicts. So what is the line, one might ask. The line is, there is a very clearly defined maximum amount you can have on your person for consumption. If you exceed that amount it is considered drug trafficking and you are committing a crime that lands you in jail. This also extends to planting or producing.
One may think it "funny" that you can buy but you can't sell but is a very pragmatic both in terms of health concerns and political stance against drugs.
My personal opinion is that of the justice minister, it should be completely legalized although there is the strong possibility of drug tourism in Portugal. If the Netherlands became a drug tourism destination, a touristic country like Portugal would have probably the same outcome. In my perspective the drug tourism aspect of legalization was negative for Netherlands, so much so, that foreigner/s cannot buy drugs in some cities as the local people can. Maastricht is such a city (I have been there).
(Score: 5, Interesting) by hoochiecoochieman on Friday February 13 2015, @06:14PM
You are right, I'm severely biased. This is a free forum. I don't have to be neutral, or even reasonable. Paulo Portas, the current Portuguese government and the right-wing in general make want to puke my guts out. So every chance I have to stick it to them, I do.
Isn't that pretty obvious in my comment? If I did, we wouldn't have a right-wing government, would we?
Yes, I'm an urbanite. Is that a sin? Anyway, the vast majority of the Portuguese population is highly concentrated in coastal cities. I bet most of the Communist old men in rural Alentejo disapprove of gay marriage (but not their grandchildren, though). However, it was approved in the Parliament with the votes of the whole Left, including the Communist Party.
I approve what the Justice Minister said. May I remind you it was a personal opinion, and she was severely diced for saying it? It's funny that the Prime Minister had to come and publicly contradict her, but he has always kept quiet about the numerous fuck-ups that have been happening on her watch. Anyway, most right-wing people I know, even those who smoke hash, strongly oppose to drug legalisation.
To me, it's absurd. What it does is feeding criminal organisations with shitloads of money. Marijuana should be legalised and its production and distribution heavily regulated, like the other legal drugs, tobacco and alcohol (which, by the way, cause a lot more damage than cannabis ever did).
Yes, that risk exists. However, if many countries do the same move, there will be no incentive for anyone to travel anywhere to smoke a joint.
(Score: 5, Insightful) by Silentknyght on Friday February 13 2015, @08:52PM
I appreciate the back-and-forth from people who actually have informed opinions. Yay soylentnews. :)
(Score: 1) by mmarujo on Friday February 20 2015, @12:52PM
My personal opinion is that of the justice minister, it should be completely legalized although there is the strong possibility of drug tourism in Portugal. If the Netherlands became a drug tourism destination, a touristic country like Portugal would have probably the same outcome.
Yes, that risk exists. However, if many countries do the same move, there will be no incentive for anyone to travel anywhere to smoke a joint.
I never understood the "drug tourism" point of view as opposed as the Wine Tourism, TV keeps telling us is really good, and should be encouraged!