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Arthur T Knackerbracket has processed the following story:
The “no-fly” list has many problems. Pretty much any fed can “nominate” someone for the list. Pretty much everyone on the list has almost zero chance of getting off it other than by filing a lawsuit. And even though the government has been forced by court decisions to offer a venue for challenges, the federal government is still under no obligation to tell people why they’ve been placed on the list, much less promise to never put them back on it again.
When people have been removed (almost exclusively following lawsuits), they’re simply told they’ve been removed. The only way to find out if they’ve been reinstated is to buy a ticket to ride only to have it denied after they’ve already spent their money and arrived at the airport.
Then there’s the cross-pollination of federal law enforcement databases, which turns people on the “no fly” list into suspected terrorists, even if there’s nothing in the database that supports this implication or any cop’s corresponding inference.
As unjust as this all is, at least there are some limits. Well, maybe one. And maybe one that only applies to this specific incident. But, there’s at least one limit and it’s spelled out by this decision [PDF] handed down by the Eleventh Circuit Appeals Court. And that limitation is this: you can’t stop someone from driving just because they’re not allowed to board a plane. (h/t FourthAmendment.com)
Here’s how this all went down in Georgia, leading to this federal lawsuit:
First, they ignored direct instructions telling the officers not to detain the driver. Then they kept him detained for 91 minutes which, if nothing else, definitely violates the Supreme Court’s Rodriguez decision — the one that says officers cannot prolong traffic stops without the reasonable suspicion to do so.
The State Police officers didn’t have any of that. All they had was a “no fly” hit that came coupled with instructions stating that his mere presence on this list did not justify further detention. And none of that justified the warrantless search of his truck.
And, according to the allegations in the lawsuit, the only reason Meshal was on the FBI’s “no fly” list was because he had refused to become an FBI snitch.
Not exactly an improbable allegation! The FBI has been known to do this. A lot. Even if it feels it can’t justify a “no fly” list nomination, agents feel more than comfortable threatening people with deportation or further disruption of their travel plans. That a state officer would feel comfortable detaining someone in contravention of direct instructions otherwise makes it clear anyone the government merely wants to pretend is a terrorist is justification enough for any further violation of their rights.
At the district court level, all involved officers (Janufka, Oglesby, and Wright) were denied qualified immunity for this prolonged, suspicionless detention of Meshal, as well as for the completely unjustified search of his vehicle. They appealed. And the 11th Circuit says, too bad. Maybe don’t violate rights if you don’t like being sued.
The court first cites the Rodriguez decision in response to the officers’ arguments that the stop was not “unreasonably” prolonged. It also addresses their claim that detaining Meshal was necessary, even though the original stop was (allegedly) for him following another driver too closely.
As for the claim that it was the FBI’s fault the detention took 90 minutes due to officers waiting for a return call from the agency (after ignoring the agency’s direct instructions not to detain the driver), the court is even less sympathetic. An extended stop can’t be justified just because officers chose to involve an outside agency.
Driving the point home, the Appeals Court says all of this is stuff officers should know — so clearly established they can’t plausibly claim they weren’t “on notice” that detaining someone on a no fly list (much less searching his truck) for driving isn’t acceptable under the US Constitution.
The lawsuit will continue. And rights that were always present have been reaffirmed, something that’s going to help plenty of people who have been placed on the FBI’s “no fly” list (as this lawsuit alleges) for purely vindictive reasons. I would expect the state of Georgia to settle soon, rather than just wait around for more precedent curbing officer misconduct to be solidified.
(Score: 5, Interesting) by JoeMerchant on Sunday October 06 2024, @02:47PM (8 children)
Friend of ours was a retired FDA field agent, with an FBI field agent for a husband. Said husband was one of VERY few native Farsi speakers in the FBI on 9-11, and had the last name to match.
After a few years of No-Fly style harassment based entirely on the ethnicity of her married name (she worked as a consultant with frequent trips coast to coast and to/from facilities in the Caribbean) she finally just changed back to her maiden name and the harassment stopped.
Husband in the FBI couldn't fix it, any amount of testimonial support from her former FDA employers couldn't fix it. Simple name change on her travel IDs fixed it.
The false sense of security that TSA and the rest try to give us is their greatest dis-service, of many.
🌻🌻🌻🌻✌️ [google.com]
(Score: 3, Informative) by Rosco P. Coltrane on Sunday October 06 2024, @05:03PM (1 child)
Over the few weeks after 9/11, the social club I was part of started noticing some members had stopped attending and couldn't be reached. When we checked out who it was, it was all a bunch of people called Ben-something or Al-something, of arabic descent, on a visa or a green card. After a few inquiries, we learned they had been quietly arrested and deported. No charges were filed, they hadn't done anything. They were simply kicked out of the country.
That's when I realized the rule of law didn't apply in this country anymore.
(Score: 5, Insightful) by JoeMerchant on Sunday October 06 2024, @05:46PM
Never did:
https://www.loc.gov/classroom-materials/united-states-history-primary-source-timeline/post-war-united-states-1945-1968/civil-rights-movement/ [loc.gov]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internment_of_Japanese_Americans [wikipedia.org]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Indian_massacres_in_North_America [wikipedia.org]
But we're real sorry about all that, after the perpetrators are all dead of natural causes.
🌻🌻🌻🌻✌️ [google.com]
(Score: 2, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday October 06 2024, @07:45PM (5 children)
I sometimes wonder if I'm on a list.
Beginning around 15 years ago, I was pat down screened or had my laptop swabbed 3 out of every four domestic flights, and nearly all international flights. Random can work that way, but it seems unlikely.
In Australia, I was pulled off a flight headed to the US, after already having been seated; the Aussies apologized, and said it was due to US rules that they had to search me.
Several years prior to my first time experiencing friction in security screenings in the US, I had been attempting to check in for a flight from Israel to Italy. I was searched, detained and repeatedly questioned for over 24 hours, my property (including contacts list) was seized, and my SLR camera was physically destroyed. I had arrived overland from Jordan, and had visited many Arab countries prior to arriving in Israel. While in Israel, I mainly stayed with Palestinians. I guess this counts as justification for paranoid genocidal racist Israelis. I also, e.g., stayed at a Moshav[1] in the Golan Heights (land stolen from Syria), and a Christian hostel in Haifa (an entirely segregated city that is known as the most integrated in Israel). But, I guess also staying with Jews (and even traveling on a Jewish-only road) doesn't counteract "consorting with [sub-human] Arabs".
My Interaction with Palestinian people within the borders of historic Palestine (and Palestinian refugees in Jordan) and other Arab peoples outside Israel is the only thing I can think of that would have triggered such reaction by the Israelis. I hadn't been a critic of Israel until after this trip, and witnessing first-hand the horrific abuse of the indigenous Palestinian people by the Israeli colonists, and following that up with research into the many massacres by the Israelis and other horrors inflicted in the process of ethnically cleansing historic Palestine of the indigenous Palestinians to make way for Jewish settlers over the last 3/4 century.
I've been an outspoken critic of US wars of aggression and an outspoken critic of Israel's horrific treatment of the indigenous Palestinians. Both while not hiding my identity. These are the only things I can think of that might have landed me on a list. But, if these "thought crimes" are all it takes, the US is already a fascist police state. If it is due to "intelligence sharing" with Israel, well... same thing-- you are the company you keep-- a fascist police state.
[1]https:// en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moshav
(Score: 2) by JoeMerchant on Sunday October 06 2024, @11:29PM (2 children)
More likely you fit a profile... Skin color, apparent wealth or lack thereof, you know that professional law enforcement can spot the guilty "snap" just like that, it's all in the distance between the eyes.
(All too sadly true to be sarcastic.)
🌻🌻🌻🌻✌️ [google.com]
(Score: 3, Interesting) by JoeMerchant on Monday October 07 2024, @12:14PM
To further that theory:
Law enforcement's pre-judgement of suspects based on "profiles" becomes a self-fulfilling system. Harass a person long enough based on meaningless attributes, and that harassment will turn the person against law enforcement and society in general - meaning that the profile then becomes a valid test of criminality: we always harass "those kind" of people, and look: they _do_ really hate us.
🌻🌻🌻🌻✌️ [google.com]
(Score: 2, Touché) by Anonymous Coward on Monday October 07 2024, @04:38PM
You know the color code [twimg.com], right?
(Score: 2, Touché) by khallow on Monday October 07 2024, @01:37PM
So extensive interaction with Palestinians and ideology. It's still thin - assuming that they don't have a more valid reason of course (like a legitimate concern that you're unintentionally carrying bombs onto airplanes for example), but I'm not surprised that you're on a list.
As to sharing your concerns? Better not do things like October 7, if you want my sympathy.
(Score: 2) by DannyB on Tuesday October 08 2024, @03:28PM
It could be because you are Anonymous on SN.
Never fear, Smith is here.