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(Score: 2, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Monday March 03, @02:29AM
(9 children)
by Anonymous Coward
on Monday March 03, @02:29AM (#1395052)
I worked with a Chinese woman who started suggesting, ever-so-slightly, from the moment I arrived that she was interested. I wasn't. I never suggested or indicated that I was, I never treated her as anything more than a friend and co-worker.
Three years later, at a holiday party, our company was having an outing - rent a small event hall, cram 70 people into it, and have dinner. I think drinks were available with tickets -- two per person. People stood around tables all over, talked, and there was a couch for the sitters (including me).
At some point this woman came up, and we talked (about what I don't remember), and I said I needed to shave -- that 3-4 day stubble growth. She went, "What?! Nooo!" and I responded "I have to, it's at that stage." She went "Why?!" and I thought back to when I was six years old and I asked my dad the same thing. Chinese men don't regularly have facial hair, so the reason is probably completely foreign to her (no pun intended). I moved over, halted, second-thoughts, should I? but she's asking a direct question, and concluded, moved and *scritch* her cheek with my stubble. "That's why." "Ohhh my god!! Yes, shave, shave!!" .... and that was that. I didn't move my butt. I wasn't close to her. I never touched her hand, nor her shoulder, my skin never contacted hers.
So why am I raising this scene? A few days later I was called in by the HR rep of the business. A sexual harrassment complaint had been filed against me, by her. It started out with the HR rep saying, "It's probably a cultural thing, she just doesn't understand how people interact in this country," and there were smiles and chuckles arround, and it included, "but it was filed and so we can't just ignore it. This won't be a problem with the two of you working together, will it?"
No. No problem. Working together. "Can't just ignore it."
My job was IT, I was in a supportive role at that point (from supporting the desktop computers to supporting the developers' interactions with the lower-level Linux system -- I worked pretty closely with *everyone*). The changes were: she's an employee, not a friend. I will do nothing to treat her as a friend, as that is disallowed. From that day on, I did not smile at her, I did not engage in casual conversation, and when she needed assistance with her computer or project, I asked her to leave the cubicle while I stepped in to do my work.
This sort of thing is real, and can't just be ignored. (Or rather, it can be -- but the company *won't*, and it's your fault, as a man, no matter what.)
Part of the issue may have been that she was teased obnoxiously by someone the whole time I was working there, and it really bothered her a lot. Probably she was teased about that scritch at the holiday party, and blew up ... on me. He never had anything happen to him. No problems. Keep going. He's just a "friend".
---
Another example, I was kind-of sort-of interested in a girl met from Tinder, and we did a fair number of things (hiking, concert -- "out" things). I was giving her a ride home one night, and she said she doesn't want to be in a relationship with me and doesn't want me to touch her. (Er.. what?) I sat there, thinking about that. As I was sitting there thinking about that, she threw her arms around me and was hugging me. Yet, I'm not allowed to touch her. So I didn't. I sat in my seat with my arms at my sides as she hugged me.
As a man, It Is Your Fault.
Fuck That Shit. I will not get involved with any woman from this or any similar country, at all, ever more.
---
If you watch Japanese anime, if a man walks through his front door and there's an unknown bitch changing in his home, whom he sees naked because - he's walking into his home.. "HOW DARE YOU!!!" and then they get hit and harrassed and treated coldly for the remainder of the episode. If a male is physically forced into any contact with a female, he pulls away as immediately as possible and the female regards him as a heathen. Etc etc.
I once read that "Movies reflect the concern of the population." (Japan - radioactivity vs Godzilla; United States westerns vs the concerns of the Indians, late 90's/early 2000's fears of kidnapping / mysterious killer on the loose (Scream, Taken, so so many more); etc.) In Anime there's so, so much of it -- showing what it's like to live there as an average male. Constant fear that a woman will accuse you of "whatever," whether you did such a thing or not, or *completely* taken out of context. Yes, compared to Japan 40 years ago, completely the opposite. Now most males in Japan are utterly fearful for their freedom, should a woman decide to accuse them of *anything*.
Once accused, Guilty until (and usually even-if) proven innocent.
- decently close friends, - didn't touch them, - scritch of stubble, - middle of a room of 70 people,
I seem to always got the reaction, "YOU CAN"T DO THAT TO SOMEONE!!!!"
Your disbelief? I can't believe you can't see this. What OP is doing **IS NOT ENOUGH**.
I won't go into a meeting room with a woman if it doesn't have transparent windows. Blinds cannot be closed. Luckily, my teams and coworkers have been male, the *twice* that I've had a meeting with a female has had clear glass windows, and a short meeting. Now it's all across-the-internet - but I still don't do meetings with women, as it's simply too easy to claim "He said ..."
I won't go into a meeting room with a woman . . . Luckily, my teams and coworkers have been male . . . I still don't do meetings with women, as it's simply too easy to claim "He said ..."
Thanks goodfulness that it is simply impossible that a male could ever accuse another male of sexual harassment. Or a female could be accused of harassing a male, or OMG, another female!
It is equally or even less (or more?)[1] impossible that male harassing a male could actually happen in real life.
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
[1] the equal or less or more operator might be: <=> and always returns true if and only if the left expression is less, equal or greater than the right expression.
-- The Centauri traded Earth jump gate technology in exchange for our superior hair mousse formulas.
> Thanks goodfulness that it is simply impossible that a male could ever accuse another male of sexual harassment. Or a female could be accused of harassing a male, or OMG, another female!
> It is equally or even less (or more?)[1] impossible that male harassing a male could actually happen in real life.
What you seem to not get is: men don't bitch about it. It's how men interact. Women do it to women, too. Women *DO* do it to men. Yet only women bitch about it, and only when men do it to them.
The problem is so profound that even when men *don't* do it to women, women report it regardless. And regardless whatever the man did, the woman must be cared for, must be protected - and so the man failed, no matter what.
(Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday March 04, @02:24AM
(1 child)
by Anonymous Coward
on Tuesday March 04, @02:24AM (#1395153)
Also, any M --> M, F --> M or F --> F sexual harassment will be investigated carefully before any assumptions are made. Any claim of M --> F sexual harassment is automatically assumed to be true - guilty until proven innocent.
(Score: 1, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday March 04, @08:45AM
by Anonymous Coward
on Tuesday March 04, @08:45AM (#1395180)
The problem is with M --> F sexual harassment historically is that it was not taken seriously. It was often just dismissed or brushed under the carpet. Things changed from essentially victim blaming or accusing the female of hysteria to believing the victim. In many cases this is a useful way of approaching the situation. The problem is that there are people who will make malicious and vexatious claims of harassment against others. Mounting a robust legal defence is expensive and beyond the means of many people.
You broke the cardinal rule of never touching someone without being explicitly invited to do so.
Where I am, it is reasonably OK to touch people's hands (handshaking on greeting strangers you are bieng introduced to is normal), elbows, and (briefly) the centre of a persons back in the area from between the shoulder-blades to the small of the back. Allowable parts of the body vary by culture.
Scratching stubble against another persons face wouldn't be usual. You'd need to give adequate warning, and be invited to do so. It would still be regarded as odd.
Your boundaries were not her boundaries, and you made the mistake of not checking first. Easily done.
(Score: 2, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Monday March 03, @02:29AM (9 children)
I worked with a Chinese woman who started suggesting, ever-so-slightly, from the moment I arrived that she was interested. I wasn't. I never suggested or indicated that I was, I never treated her as anything more than a friend and co-worker.
Three years later, at a holiday party, our company was having an outing - rent a small event hall, cram 70 people into it, and have dinner. I think drinks were available with tickets -- two per person. People stood around tables all over, talked, and there was a couch for the sitters (including me).
At some point this woman came up, and we talked (about what I don't remember), and I said I needed to shave -- that 3-4 day stubble growth. She went, "What?! Nooo!" and I responded "I have to, it's at that stage." She went "Why?!" and I thought back to when I was six years old and I asked my dad the same thing. Chinese men don't regularly have facial hair, so the reason is probably completely foreign to her (no pun intended). I moved over, halted, second-thoughts, should I? but she's asking a direct question, and concluded, moved and *scritch* her cheek with my stubble. "That's why." "Ohhh my god!! Yes, shave, shave!!" .... and that was that. I didn't move my butt. I wasn't close to her. I never touched her hand, nor her shoulder, my skin never contacted hers.
So why am I raising this scene? A few days later I was called in by the HR rep of the business. A sexual harrassment complaint had been filed against me, by her. It started out with the HR rep saying, "It's probably a cultural thing, she just doesn't understand how people interact in this country," and there were smiles and chuckles arround, and it included, "but it was filed and so we can't just ignore it. This won't be a problem with the two of you working together, will it?"
No. No problem. Working together. "Can't just ignore it."
My job was IT, I was in a supportive role at that point (from supporting the desktop computers to supporting the developers' interactions with the lower-level Linux system -- I worked pretty closely with *everyone*). The changes were: she's an employee, not a friend. I will do nothing to treat her as a friend, as that is disallowed. From that day on, I did not smile at her, I did not engage in casual conversation, and when she needed assistance with her computer or project, I asked her to leave the cubicle while I stepped in to do my work.
This sort of thing is real, and can't just be ignored. (Or rather, it can be -- but the company *won't*, and it's your fault, as a man, no matter what.)
Part of the issue may have been that she was teased obnoxiously by someone the whole time I was working there, and it really bothered her a lot. Probably she was teased about that scritch at the holiday party, and blew up ... on me. He never had anything happen to him. No problems. Keep going. He's just a "friend".
---
Another example, I was kind-of sort-of interested in a girl met from Tinder, and we did a fair number of things (hiking, concert -- "out" things). I was giving her a ride home one night, and she said she doesn't want to be in a relationship with me and doesn't want me to touch her. (Er.. what?) I sat there, thinking about that. As I was sitting there thinking about that, she threw her arms around me and was hugging me. Yet, I'm not allowed to touch her. So I didn't. I sat in my seat with my arms at my sides as she hugged me.
As a man, It Is Your Fault.
Fuck That Shit. I will not get involved with any woman from this or any similar country, at all, ever more.
---
If you watch Japanese anime, if a man walks through his front door and there's an unknown bitch changing in his home, whom he sees naked because - he's walking into his home.. "HOW DARE YOU!!!" and then they get hit and harrassed and treated coldly for the remainder of the episode. If a male is physically forced into any contact with a female, he pulls away as immediately as possible and the female regards him as a heathen. Etc etc.
I once read that "Movies reflect the concern of the population." (Japan - radioactivity vs Godzilla; United States westerns vs the concerns of the Indians, late 90's/early 2000's fears of kidnapping / mysterious killer on the loose (Scream, Taken, so so many more); etc.) In Anime there's so, so much of it -- showing what it's like to live there as an average male. Constant fear that a woman will accuse you of "whatever," whether you did such a thing or not, or *completely* taken out of context. Yes, compared to Japan 40 years ago, completely the opposite. Now most males in Japan are utterly fearful for their freedom, should a woman decide to accuse them of *anything*.
Once accused, Guilty until (and usually even-if) proven innocent.
(Score: 2) by DrkShadow on Monday March 03, @02:34AM (7 children)
Each time I tell the story to someone,
- decently close friends,
- didn't touch them,
- scritch of stubble,
- middle of a room of 70 people,
I seem to always got the reaction, "YOU CAN"T DO THAT TO SOMEONE!!!!"
Your disbelief? I can't believe you can't see this. What OP is doing **IS NOT ENOUGH**.
I won't go into a meeting room with a woman if it doesn't have transparent windows. Blinds cannot be closed. Luckily, my teams and coworkers have been male, the *twice* that I've had a meeting with a female has had clear glass windows, and a short meeting. Now it's all across-the-internet - but I still don't do meetings with women, as it's simply too easy to claim "He said ..."
(Score: 2) by DannyB on Monday March 03, @03:41PM (4 children)
Thanks goodfulness that it is simply impossible that a male could ever accuse another male of sexual harassment. Or a female could be accused of harassing a male, or OMG, another female!
It is equally or even less (or more?)[1] impossible that male harassing a male could actually happen in real life.
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
[1] the equal or less or more operator might be: <=> and always returns true if and only if the left expression is less, equal or greater than the right expression.
The Centauri traded Earth jump gate technology in exchange for our superior hair mousse formulas.
(Score: 2) by DrkShadow on Monday March 03, @09:19PM
> Thanks goodfulness that it is simply impossible that a male could ever accuse another male of sexual harassment. Or a female could be accused of harassing a male, or OMG, another female!
Indeed.
(Score: 2, Flamebait) by DrkShadow on Monday March 03, @09:23PM (2 children)
> It is equally or even less (or more?)[1] impossible that male harassing a male could actually happen in real life.
What you seem to not get is: men don't bitch about it. It's how men interact. Women do it to women, too. Women *DO* do it to men. Yet only women bitch about it, and only when men do it to them.
The problem is so profound that even when men *don't* do it to women, women report it regardless. And regardless whatever the man did, the woman must be cared for, must be protected - and so the man failed, no matter what.
(Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday March 04, @02:24AM (1 child)
Also, any M --> M, F --> M or F --> F sexual harassment will be investigated carefully before any assumptions are made. Any claim of M --> F sexual harassment is automatically assumed to be true - guilty until proven innocent.
(Score: 1, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday March 04, @08:45AM
The problem is with M --> F sexual harassment historically is that it was not taken seriously. It was often just dismissed or brushed under the carpet. Things changed from essentially victim blaming or accusing the female of hysteria to believing the victim. In many cases this is a useful way of approaching the situation. The problem is that there are people who will make malicious and vexatious claims of harassment against others. Mounting a robust legal defence is expensive and beyond the means of many people.
(Score: 4, Insightful) by pTamok on Tuesday March 04, @02:39PM
You broke the cardinal rule of never touching someone without being explicitly invited to do so.
Where I am, it is reasonably OK to touch people's hands (handshaking on greeting strangers you are bieng introduced to is normal), elbows, and (briefly) the centre of a persons back in the area from between the shoulder-blades to the small of the back. Allowable parts of the body vary by culture.
Scratching stubble against another persons face wouldn't be usual. You'd need to give adequate warning, and be invited to do so. It would still be regarded as odd.
Your boundaries were not her boundaries, and you made the mistake of not checking first. Easily done.