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from the the-impossible-takes-a-little-longer dept.
lhsi writes:
"The Atlantic looked at a recent update from the developers of the game Desktop Dungeons to discuss problems with gender bias in gaming, asking 'can a work be racist or sexist if its creator doesn't mean for it to be?'
The developers of the game had recently been adding female character art to their game with the intention that they would be "adventurers first and runway models second." While actively trying to avoid doing everything the 'simple' way, they came into some problems due to subconscious shorthands creeping in.
"This adjustment turned out to be startlingly non-trivial - you'd think that a bunch of supposedly conscious, mindful individuals would instantly be able to nail a 'good female look' (bonus points for having a woman on our crew, right?), but huge swathes of our artistic language tended to be informed by sexist and one-dimensional portrayals. We regularly surprised ourselves with how much we took for granted.'"
(Score: 5, Interesting) by n1 on Saturday March 15 2014, @06:38PM
I'm not so sure you can avoid being 'sexist' to both males and females, by the time you acknowledge there are differences, that will be enough to be considered sexist by some people. There are male stereotypes all over games and other media, which are just as damaging as the female stereotypes.
I don't know the solution, but it the only way to be clear of it is to not sexualize or give characters gender at all. Maybe that is a solution, but it probably wouldnt be very engaging to us, the billions of people in the world that have the gender stereotypes well ingrained into our psychology.
(Score: 3, Insightful) by zocalo on Saturday March 15 2014, @07:23PM
I suspect there is also more to it than that though. So many game characters these days are motion captured, which means that you need a real human to do the capture. Where do you get such humans from? Modelling agencies, of course, so you are automatically limiting the selection to those humans that are, by definition, models. That's not to say that you can't find models in all shapes and sizes, but you are going to have do more than just pick a random agency from the phone book and find one that has more average proportioned characters.
UNIX? They're not even circumcised! Savages!
(Score: 3, Interesting) by Angry Jesus on Saturday March 15 2014, @07:37PM
I don't think that realism is the right approach. Stereotypically the male characters are exaggerated for physical strength and the female characters are exaggerate for sexuality. Neither are realistic, but strength is a frequently a useful attribute for a character in a game, while sexuality is not.
I say tone down the sexualization and bring the physicality to proportionally the same level as the male characters. I'm not saying make the female characters look like they take so many steroids that they have mustaches and adam's apples, but something closer to Venus Williams rather than Barbie.
(Score: 5, Funny) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday March 15 2014, @07:55PM
Yeah I agree, we need better games!
(Score: 3, Interesting) by zocalo on Saturday March 15 2014, @08:06PM
I also wonder also how much of this subconciously ties into the uncanny valley. Perhaps we currently need the maquette to be slightly out of kilter in order to keep us firmly pegged on the "fake" side of the valley. Once we have the capability to do truly realistic characters in real-time on the desktop or console, then that might mark the point where it becomes necessary to start using more realistic proportions.
UNIX? They're not even circumcised! Savages!
(Score: 1) by Angry Jesus on Saturday March 15 2014, @09:08PM
You are mistaken. The problem is sexism, not stereotyping in general. Video games are inherently over-simplifications, the very word avatar is practically a synonym for stereotype.
(Score: 2) by zocalo on Saturday March 15 2014, @09:45PM
UNIX? They're not even circumcised! Savages!
(Score: 0, Flamebait) by Angry Jesus on Saturday March 15 2014, @10:25PM
So your position is that it is impossible to not be sexist. Not useful.
(Score: 2) by zocalo on Saturday March 15 2014, @10:50PM
My position is that if someone has problems with sexism, whether conciously or unconciously as implied by the article, then starting with a realistic baseline drawn from the real world might be a good means to avoid the issue. For instance, if they are trying to create a maquette for a given role (muscular male, athletic female, or whatever), then maybe they could use the dimensions of actual human who *is* a muscular male, athletic female, or whatever as their base. That doesn't prevent any subsequent tweaking, of course, but it does at least ensure they would have a plausible set of proportions to begin with.
UNIX? They're not even circumcised! Savages!
(Score: 0) by Angry Jesus on Saturday March 15 2014, @11:16PM
I don't see why starting from realistic proportions and then amping them up is any less likely to reduce the subconscious expression of sexism than any other method. If the problem is the subconscious affecting the end result, then as long at there is a subconscious involved in making decisions, its going to come out in the end result.
(Score: 1) by mister_playboy on Sunday March 16 2014, @01:39AM
strength is a frequently a useful attribute for a character in a game, while sexuality is not
This quip made me think of Jessica [gamesretrospect.com] from DQVIII and her "Sex Appeal" skill tree.
She blows kisses, bashes enemies with her butt, gives puff-puffs, and causing foes to waste their turn ogling her. Maybe not the most powerful choice of skills, but certainly the most fun.
And how would Dragon Quest Sorceress [wikia.com] animate the dead without her heaving bosom? :3
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday March 16 2014, @10:07PM
I'm sure I've 'objectified' venus williams a time or two before bed. I'll grant that she is completely devoid of generic sorts of beauty though.
My fear is that the most vocal segment of the female/feminist population that hates this stuff just won't be happy with characters that aren't ugly. Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe a variety of characters that are nice to look at as well as a handful that shouldn't be attractive by the nature of their character would suffice.
That's pretty much how it is for male characters, they look generally attractive but you have your steve buchemis too.
(Score: 5, Interesting) by frojack on Saturday March 15 2014, @07:50PM
Agreed, spending too much time getting rid of any sexual stereotypes is ultimately to deny our own humanism.
Men are pretty much what women want them to be, and vise versa.
Men behave pretty much the way women want them to. And vise versa.
The cliches we see in games, movies, books, TV aren't all that inventive, they spring from real life. Every mass murder has his ardent female followers who will marry him while he's in jail. (Hybristophilia). Every man will admire a beautiful body.
Trying to get rid of this in games is a pointless exercise, as nonsense as getting rid of weapons in a combat game, or fast cars in a GTA game. Thought control isn't going to work, it never has.
No, you are mistaken. I've always had this sig.
(Score: 3, Interesting) by tibman on Saturday March 15 2014, @08:08PM
Natural Selection 2 did a good job with their female marine: http://unknownworlds.com/ns2/the-female-marine/ [unknownworlds.com]
Armor looks actually usable and not just a metal bra. I do enjoy fan service but it can easily break the character and story. Awesome in absurd fantasy games. Not so awesome in "realistic" games. Just so people don't think i'm sexist. I like it as a caricature of reality in a fantasy setting. Not just gratuitous.
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(Score: 3, Insightful) by wjwlsn on Saturday March 15 2014, @08:10PM
Ummm...
You ever been married, 'cause that ain't my experience?! (And judging by my daily interactions with my wife, I think she'd laugh her ass off if you said that to her with a straight face.)
I am a traveler of both time and space. Duh.
(Score: 4, Funny) by frojack on Saturday March 15 2014, @08:28PM
She married you, didn't she? QED.
No, you are mistaken. I've always had this sig.
(Score: 3, Insightful) by wjwlsn on Saturday March 15 2014, @08:35PM
Hmmm. I've tried expressing that sentiment before, as in "well, you knew this and you still married me!" It usually doesn't go down very well. :)
(I actually agree with you... those statements just struck me as funny.)
I am a traveler of both time and space. Duh.
(Score: 2) by Vanderhoth on Saturday March 15 2014, @09:41PM
The old adage. "A man marries a women because he wants her to stay the same, a women marries a man because she sees a challenge in changing him."
I'm in the same boat, my wife is always nagging me to get off the computer because I'm spending too much time (programming|watching anime|playing video games). I met my wife playing Dark Ages (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_Ages_%28video_g ame%29), which her male friend (not BF) talked her into playing. We found out we only lived a few blocks from each other and just hit it off, 17 years ago. She was interested in all the things I liked at the time, then we got married, 6 years ago, and all the sudden I'm spending too much time. Doesn't matter, I still lover her and when she's not nagging me, which I just filter out, we have a great relationship.
I always pull the "I though you married me because you liked that about me, huh, go figure." Then go back to whatever I was doing while she mutters to herself ;)
"Now we know", "And knowing is half the battle". -G.I. Joooooe
(Score: 4, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday March 15 2014, @08:13PM
I know the solution. Stop giving a damn.
Announce that all characters, male, female, neuter, and tri-sexual alien, will be sexualized. Anyone who doesn't like it should feel free to blow their own brains out.
And then move on with doing what you want to do, and if anyone whines and cries about it, ignore them.
(Score: 5, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday March 15 2014, @08:58PM
This. I'm laughing at the article, because they're so terrified of putting females in a box of labels that they've created their own special little box to throw women into.
Some women are idiots. Some women could kill you with their brain. Some women have a basic understanding of how armor works. Some women like to show off skin.
This is really easy, guys. You know how you design male characters?
Do the same fucking thing for women.
Protip: They're people, too. They're not a separate species. They're especially not a retarded fantasy race where every last one of them is homogenous in thought, word and deed.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday March 15 2014, @09:41PM
I agree with most things but are you absolutely sure they're the same species? 'Cause sometime....
(Score: 2) by Sir Garlon on Sunday March 16 2014, @05:48PM
I think the entire point of TFA is that they tried exactly that, and found out it is easy to say and real goddamn difficult to do.
[Sir Garlon] is the marvellest knight that is now living, for he destroyeth many good knights, for he goeth invisible.