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Debian 8 "Jessie" was released on 25 Apr. A link to the Debian release page shows the changes and you can follow the release in 'real-time' should you desire to do so.
This release will be supported for 5 years and includes "improvements" to the UEFI software (both 32- and 64-bit) introduced in the previous version, "Wheezy". It also is the first release to use systemd as default init system replacing the earlier sysvinit, which is still available in the repos should you wish to revert the change. What effects such a change might have on the remainder of the system is not clear. Improvements to the support of Debian software include the ability to browse and search all source code distributed in the latest release.
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In the Halls of Justice the only justice is in the halls.
-- Lenny Bruce
(Score: 0, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday April 26 2015, @07:10PM
"...but only 394 votes ultimately decided Pluto's fate: 237 in favor of demoting the planet and 157 against."
1 vote decided for the systemd takeover in debian.
There was a split 4-4 vote in the debian technical comittie.
Which was then tie-broken by the chair who just happened to be a rabid force-it-down-your-throght supporter.
Then there was a GR with 1 pro-systemd option and 3 or 4 anti-systemd options, so all the anti-systemd votes got split and diluted (together they would have defeated the systemders 60 to 40)
Fuck these people. SJW pieces of shit.
(Same type people banned marrying young girls everywhere, also look at planet.debian.org during the systemd debate: transgender this, women that, bla bla bla. fucking pieces of shit ruin everything good)
---
The "bug" (RFP) has been tagged as "won't fix"
If you aren't a progressive, the debian people
do not want your software, they state this here
in more concise words:
https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=770314 [debian.org]
Opensource isn't about code anymore, it's
about community and beliving and professing
the correct thing. If you do not believe
the correct thing you are removed (example: Ted Walther)
or your software is attacked and removed from its
host (As gpcslots2 was in the past by feminists:
http://esr.ibiblio.org/?p=1310 [ibiblio.org] http://whatwillweuse.com/fodder/terrorware/ [whatwillweuse.com] Beth Lynn Eicher )
How do you feel about this change?
(Score: -1, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday April 26 2015, @07:22PM
Went from Score 1 informative to Score 0 troll.
Saying the truth is "Trolling"
SJWs and feminists should really be killed.
One was killed in pakistan today (Thanks :D)
One was killed in Russia some years ago.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday April 26 2015, @07:23PM
As a Linux noob, what's wrong with forking Debian or using other (non-systemd) distros?
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday April 26 2015, @07:34PM
What's wrong with writing your own kernel from scratch?
I've forked various projects.
Xonotic and before then Crossfire RPG.
It isn't impossible, and when it's a game it's alot of fun.
What I don't do is allow people to destroy the building I'm existing in and then not complain when I am forced to rebuild it again and again and again and again.
What one relys on shouldn't be stolen from him.
(Score: 2) by kaszz on Sunday April 26 2015, @07:47PM
The difference is that you can keep the original building provided you put it in a new location. And all builders can be poached to develop at your new location. Seems only inertia and emotional attachment keeps people at the original site.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday April 26 2015, @07:49PM
The original site has a sound foundation.
A mob comes and blows it up.
Then has those who resided in the building banned from the town.
The building residents should kill the mob, but they don't or cant.
They lost what they had.
The mob won.
(Score: 2) by kaszz on Sunday April 26 2015, @08:09PM
So drop the rule book and exterminate the mob rough style?
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday April 26 2015, @08:56PM
That would be the only option other than defeat.
(Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday April 26 2015, @08:21PM
Of course Debian should have been forked. In this fork they could have gone with systemd. Then they would have gotten the Debian-based, systemd-using distro they want, while everybody else who has been using Debian for the past two decades wouldn't have had our systems trashed by systemd.
(Score: 2) by kaszz on Sunday April 26 2015, @08:33PM
So the systemd network has coup d'étated the board of the original distribution. The question to ask is, how did they accomplish this under the radar?
(Score: 4, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday April 26 2015, @08:42PM
They didn't do anything "under the radar". The political shenanigans were out in the public's view.
The intelligent members of the Debian community saw the problems with systemd, they saw the problems with how it was being adopted for political rather than technological reasons, and they objected to all of this.
The problem that they ran into is that they're busy using Debian. They're sysadmins managing tens of thousands of Debian servers. They're developers working to satisfy clients. Unlike the systemd'ers, they don't have time to waste with petty political fights.
So they lost. Realizing this, the smart ones moved to FreeBSD. They've moved, or have started to move, their Debian systems to FreeBSD. They're done with Debian. Debian has lost the best members of its community. Obviously, this loss of the project's best talent will doom the project to failure in the long run.
(Score: 4, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday April 26 2015, @09:29PM
Anyone opposed to systemd on the debian mailing list had their mails silently dropped, or were banned outright.
They were derided as trolls and mysoginists. Debian devs who opposed systemd were informed by Don Armstrong
that they would be banned from the list for trolling and creating a hostile environment.
The list master added a filter for a time that deleted any mail that had the string "systemd" in it.
Then the list users still present started calling systemd by another name (shittyowl or something like that),
that string was then added to that filter for a time
Don Armstrong was the list master.
(Score: 2) by kaszz on Sunday April 26 2015, @10:33PM
How did this Don Armstrong get appointed?
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday April 27 2015, @12:38AM
I guess he was magnanimous enough to take on the responsibility.
Don't forget his name. He's a main player in the quashing of dissent against systemd.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday May 02 2015, @05:43PM
It is starting to look like Linux project management is like political positions. If someone volunteers to take it question their motives vigorously.
Kay Sievers may well be considered Poettering's right hand man, and he volunteered to take over maintenance of udev (now systemd-udev). Similarly Poettering took over maintenance of Consolekit, only to scuttle it and replace it with systemd-logind.
One may really worry about the future of the kernel once Torvalds retires (or his bus factor goes critical).
(Score: 3, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Monday April 27 2015, @05:40AM
Citation needed.
(Score: -1, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Monday April 27 2015, @07:39PM
Citation is the debian-user and debian-dev mailing lists you SJW faggot shill.
Go read them.
I'm not going to dig through them to help you, because I hate you and am very happy when one of you is murdered.
Like the woman in pakistan yesterday.
Fuck You.
(Score: 1, Troll) by DeathMonkey on Monday April 27 2015, @08:43PM
Citation is the debian-user and debian-dev mailing lists you SJW faggot shill.
Just in case anyone hasn't figured out that the term SJW is completely meaningless I point you to the above.
Apparently being anything less than foaming-at-the-mouth anti-systemd puts you into the "Social Justice" crowd, somehow.
(Score: -1, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday April 26 2015, @09:29PM
The people responsible should be killed.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday April 26 2015, @09:36PM
I'm sure they're already dead inside. No further action need be taken.
(Score: 2) by Magic Oddball on Monday April 27 2015, @01:54PM
So they lost. Realizing this, the smart ones moved to FreeBSD.
Not just FreeBSD — some relocated to the few other strong distros left standing: Slackware, Gentoo (which IIRC has systemd as an "option"), PCLinuxOS...
Debian has lost the best members of its community.
I'd agree, but I wouldn't characterize that as being limited to people that happen to also program Linux software in the 'right' language and/or run Debian on servers. A wide variety of talents work on the most successful distros (that is, the ones with the largest, most enduring userbases, including devs/admins), as they're needed for all of the non-programming aspects that attract new users: writing basic documentation, answering questions & troubleshooting via public posts, creating graphics (icons, theme elements, etc.), knowing where the best exact location for everything in a window is, bug-testing...all of the stuff that makes a distro or OS stand out as awesome.
So, I agree: Debian lost many of its most vital supporters. They just happen to be highly intelligent people of all stripes, including programmers, network admins, graphic artists, technical writers, natural teachers, and so forth. :-)
(Score: 2) by kaszz on Sunday April 26 2015, @07:43PM
People better focus on technical matters and occasionally bash corporations or people for withholding data on hardware or APIs etc. Anything else opens up for a social sphere with bullshit that distract from the main objective.
(Score: 2, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday April 26 2015, @07:47PM
Opensource was killing the software biz.
Thus opensource needed to be killed by injecting what you say into it.
Hence the *-women groups starting around 2009 or so.
To fracture and split the movement.
It is working.
(Score: 2, Insightful) by kaszz on Sunday April 26 2015, @07:51PM
Eject all cruft asap?
Perhaps it's not corporate evil. But a desire to normalize the open source movement. But the problem perhaps is that open source movement works because its abnormal..! ;-)
People that desire normal environment should perhaps enter the corporate cubicle environment. I read it's extremely stimulating.....
(Score: -1, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday April 26 2015, @08:11PM
Only the abnormals are ejected.
There is no way for you to get rid of SJWs, feminists, etc who do nothing but call for the censorship and ejectment (which they obtain) of those whom oppose their ideals.
Opensource ideals are now feminist ideals.
They control the gates. You cannot publish your software if they dislike you, free or not.
A woman contributes much to opensource just by existing. Men who oppose her are trolls/harrassers/terrorists (yes, terror ware == casino game by anti-feminist coder) and deserve only imprisonment and penury (which the SJWs also achieve by getting anyone opposed to them fired from their positions).
Really, the only way one could fight back is to kill these people when they get you ejected from your livelihood, if you can.
(Score: 2) by kaszz on Sunday April 26 2015, @08:38PM
Apply strict show of merit and contribution before joining. And eject anyone starting irrelevant issues?
Of course that requires the community to apply these rules. So how do they (SJW) get on board to begin with?
Another approach is to continuously fork the community ;-)
(Score: 0, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday April 26 2015, @09:00PM
They always turn these rules against those doing the work so as to eject them.
What would happen is the SJWs would join, do nothing or something easy like packaging software into .ar archive (called .deb s these days), then when these rules are added, they
would point out the men doing the programing have actual social opinions on things, and then have those men banned because they broke the rule of "merit only".
Opensource worked when there were no rules, no gatekeepers, no working on OSS just to pad CVs etc.
(Score: 1, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday April 26 2015, @07:51PM
"Last but not least, we have a list of people who take credit for making this release happen."
https://www.debian.org/releases/jessie/credits [debian.org]
A self published list of the systemd forcers who took linux away from us.
(Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday April 26 2015, @08:24PM
I'd be ashamed to appear on that list. Debian 8 has already done massive damage to the Debian community. It has driven the most valuable Debian users over to FreeBSD, and they aren't coming back. It's already obvious now that Debian 8 will be known as the mistake that destroyed what was perhaps the most successful Linux distribution ever. I don't know why anyone would want to be associated with such a shameful incident.
(Score: -1, Flamebait) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday April 26 2015, @09:02PM
So it worked as planned.
OSS was easy to defeat.
The seeds of this were planted around 2009 with the XYZ-women groups.
Now they have done their work.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday April 26 2015, @08:05PM
>Whereas a person who invests significant amounts of time
What matters is a person's politics, not their contributions.
No matter what a person has contributed to opensource (code, media, etc), their contributions do not exist if they are a mysogninst and must be taken down, censored, and banned.
Feminists do not have to contribute anything to be considered great opensource contributors.
(Score: 2) by kaszz on Sunday April 26 2015, @08:11PM
So re-apply meritocracy and make no excuses or exceptions to that scheme? And in particular don't participate in a community that don't subscribe to those values.
(Score: -1, Flamebait) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday April 26 2015, @08:14PM
That is easy to say.
It's not going to happen.
They will go after your finances, job, and try to have you imprisoned.
They currently do this to all "racists" and mysoginists they can "Dox".
(Score: 2) by kaszz on Sunday April 26 2015, @08:40PM
Become anonymous and do all business with discretion?
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday April 26 2015, @09:03PM
Then you're just a quiet slave doing work for free, and can't even say what you will.
(Score: 1, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday April 26 2015, @09:39PM
SystemD may be default, but it's not the only choice. If you don't like it, don't use it. If you use the debootstrap install method (the way I've always installed Debian), then you can easily uninstall SystemD before your first boot.
(Score: 3, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday April 26 2015, @10:46PM
By "not the only choice", what you're basically saying is that anyone who wants to use Debian 8 without systemd basically needs to rebuild core components of Debian by hand. That defeats the whole purpose of using a distro.
If I want a hamburger, it would be really dumb to buy a pizza, and then waste an inordinate amount of time twisting the bread into a hamburger bun shape, wiping away the tomato sauce, picking out the pepperoni, and then adding beef and lettuce.
(Score: -1, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Monday April 27 2015, @01:04AM
I wonder what a debian dev thinks of your kind, oh here it is:
"For some reason the men in the Linux community who hate women the most seem to have taken a dislike to systemd"
...
"MikeeUSA is an evil person who hates systemd [6]. This isn’t any sort of evidence that systemd is great (I’m sure that evil people make reasonable choices about software on occasion). But it is a significant factor in support for non-systemd variants of Debian (and other Linux distributions). Decent people don’t want to be associated with people like MikeeUSA, the fact that the anti-systemd people seem happy to associate with him isn’t going to help their cause."
http://etbe.coker.com.au/2015/04/26/anti-systemd-people/ [coker.com.au]
That is what debian thinks of you.
(Score: 1, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Monday April 27 2015, @02:17AM
Uh, no, you just install a different init package.
sudo apt-get install sysvinit-core
Will install the old init system instead of SystemD.
Debian didn't eliminate the old init system, it's just not recommended. If you really desperately want to avoid installing any packages with the string "systemd" in the name, you can use this solution [debian.org].
(Score: 3, Insightful) by hash14 on Sunday April 26 2015, @11:07PM
Then there was a GR with 1 pro-systemd option and 3 or 4 anti-systemd options, so all the anti-systemd votes got split and diluted (together they would have defeated the systemders 60 to 40)
I hate systemd as much as anyone else, but my understanding is that the GR uses the Condorcet method (or a similar ranking scheme) that doesn't require splitting votes. If you don't like systemd, you can simply rank that last behind all other options so your vote still counts no matter which one wins. Is this not correct?
That said, looking at the results [lwn.net] and this very depressing interpretation [debian.org] of them, I think it's safe to say that Debian has gone off the deep-end and a new distro with a legitimately sound technical grounding is necessary.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday April 26 2015, @11:30PM
*F*OSS has never been about code.
(Score: 0, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Monday April 27 2015, @12:02AM
*F*OSS/ *FL/OSS was coined years after I joined.
There was Free Software and Opensource movements.
Later some dipshits started talking about FL/OSS FOSS etc, same pieces of shit who decided you had to be a feminist to contribute to Free LIBRE OpenSource Software.
You weren't Libre enough if you weren't a cunt worshiper.
If you were a cunt, no contribs necessary.
(Score: 1, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Monday April 27 2015, @05:38AM
The "bug" (RFP) has been tagged as "won't fix"
If you aren't a progressive, the debian people
do not want your software, they state this here
in more concise words:
https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=770314 [debian.org]
Opensource isn't about code anymore, it's
about community and beliving and professing
the correct thing. If you do not believe
the correct thing you are removed (example: Ted Walther)
or your software is attacked and removed from its
host (As gpcslots2 was in the past by feminists:
http://esr.ibiblio.org/?p=1310 [ibiblio.org] http://whatwillweuse.com/fodder/terrorware/ [whatwillweuse.com] Beth Lynn Eicher )
How do you feel about this change?
By this, parent is referring to known Debian troll MikeeUSA [wikia.com], who previously targeted Debian women with death threats and insistently injects various extremely misogynistic opinions in his comments (such as "men should be allowed to marry preteen girls" and similar crap).
Note, that the same comment posts opinions similar to what that troll is known for:
Fuck these people. SJW pieces of shit.
(Same type people banned marrying young girls everywhere, also look at planet.debian.org during the systemd debate: transgender this, women that, bla bla bla. fucking pieces of shit ruin everything good)
For those of you who dare thread in ED, they have a more complete (NSFW)account of him [encyclopediadramatica.se].
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday April 27 2015, @07:42PM
(such as "men should be allowed to marry preteen girls" and similar crap).
The Hebrew Bible agrees: Deuteronomy 22 28-29.
Read in hebrew.
It also agrees that people who oppose that should be killed. People such as yourself.
(Score: 2) by tangomargarine on Wednesday April 29 2015, @06:15PM
28 If a man happens to meet a virgin who is not pledged to be married and rapes her and they are discovered, 29 he shall pay her father fifty shekels[c] of silver. He must marry the young woman, for he has violated her. He can never divorce her as long as he lives.
Dude, what the fuck. You guys who quote scripture out of context, every time I look up the verse it's clearly saying nothing of the sort of what's claimed.
This specifically has to do with if the person was already raped. And there is NOT anything about killing anyone who opposes the marriage.
It's the whole "who would want tainted goods" thing to prevent people from despoiling a virgin and then just jetting. I would think it's meant to ensure that the girl in question has somebody providing for her for the rest of her life.
"Is that really true?" "I just spent the last hour telling you to think for yourself! Didn't you hear anything I said?"
(Score: 5, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday April 26 2015, @08:19PM
I am not impressed with the hatchet job that was done to what was my original submission, although my name (Aroused For Debian 8 "Jessie") is still attached to it.
The first problem is that while I submitted it early on while the release was still being prepared, and it would make sense to follow its preparation in realtime, it took way the fuck too long for the submission to actually get on the front page here. This has been an obvious problem lately, with tons of stories getting on the front page here sometimes days after they were on Slashdot's front page, and yet longer since they event took place.
The second problem is that although my name is still associated with this submission, literally none of it is what I had actually submitted. Here's what I had submitted:
So the title is similar, and I see two of the links I provided, but everything else in the current summary was not written by me. Why the fuck would you still attribute it to me, although you threw away pretty much everything that I wrote? I don't care that you didn't use my submission. But I think it's really disgusting that you attribute to me the shitty current summary that I didn't actually write.
If you're going to fuck up good submissions so badly, at least take the original author's name off of it, for crying out loud!
I keep hearing about how there are a lack of submissions here, and maybe now I'm learning why. I know that I will never again submit another story here, after being treated this way. It's clearly a waste of my time to prepare them, and creating a submission now entails the risk of total crap that I didn't write still being attributed to me.
I wouldn't expect this kind of a fucking disgrace from Slashdot, and my expectations from them are pretty damn low these days.
(Score: 2) by takyon on Sunday April 26 2015, @09:00PM
I will get a response for you.
[SIG] 10/28/2017: Soylent Upgrade v14 [soylentnews.org]
(Score: 3, Insightful) by SubiculumHammer on Sunday April 26 2015, @09:17PM
You know, while I agree with your position, I'm not sure why you do not present your complaint without a civil tongue.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday April 26 2015, @09:19PM
I want an edit button, so I an remove my double negative.
(Score: 1, Funny) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday April 26 2015, @09:25PM
This isn't Reddit or Hacker News. You're playing in the big leagues now, son. We don't do edits here.
As legendary white rapper Eminem wisely stated
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday April 26 2015, @09:32PM
No matter how I post, don't be a wuss.
I only wrote anonymous.
(Score: 4, Informative) by janrinok on Sunday April 26 2015, @09:31PM
As I'm the editor who did 'the hatchet job' I am more than happy to explain why.
Your submission sounded very much like a 'slashvertisement' - something that the community often complains about and that editors try to avoid publishing:
You may be excited but you really cannot claim to speak for everyone else. The majority of the comments here are far from positive about the latest release and it seems as though not many share your excitement and enthusiasm for Jessie. You are free, of course to 'test and love' the 'latest and greatest' of all Debian releases, but others may choose not to do so or might even disagree with your views.
You have posted your submission anonymously but you have adopted a username, (Aroused For Debian 8 "Jessie"), which you are quite free to do. However, from my point of view the adopted username suggests that this is a less than balanced story and your summary gives it the appearance of being a press release or blatant advertisement. However, as neither are supplied as a quoted source, it looks rather suspicious. I also disagree that 'keeping up to date with the latest Debian 8 "Jessie" release news is just so critical' . Many here don't use Debian or an OS derived from it - it is certainly not critical for them and I would argue that it probably isn't actually critical for anyone outside the Debian release team, and particularly not in 'Reattime' as your submission suggested.
If you compare your story with the earlier story regarding the release of Ubuntu 15.04 [soylentnews.org], you can see a significant difference. The correct place for your personal view is in the comments, not as the basis of your submission. You say that you wouldn't expect such treatment from SlashDot but that is the very reason many of us left that site over a year ago. They openly push 'slashvertisements' - hence the very name of them - and we try to avoid that and we aim to put out an unbiased summary.
I am genuinely sorry that you feel aggrieved but few submissions reach the front page without some editing and more than a few require a complete rewrite - as was the case here, in my honest opinion. We do welcome submissions and if you look at earlier stories you might be able to pick up a few ideas on how better to present them.
(Score: 2) by takyon on Sunday April 26 2015, @09:39PM
I think it's pretty clear that the anon was sharing heavy sarcasm rather than a "slashvertisement".
That may be enough reason not to run it or run it as is, but the anon's beef might be legitimate. With the changes to the sarcasm heavy summary, it looks like the anon could actually be supporting Debian (although the name still gives it away).
[SIG] 10/28/2017: Soylent Upgrade v14 [soylentnews.org]
(Score: 2) by urza9814 on Monday April 27 2015, @05:56PM
From the snippet the anon posted of their original submission I didn't get any hint of sarcasm. It reads like a press release or an advertisement. Maybe the byline gives it away a bit, but I can't be the only one who generally ignores those.
And if it WAS intended to be sarcastic, that only makes the editing *more* necessary. This isn't The Onion and it's not April 1st. Too much opinion in a summary is bad enough, but sarcasm is just plain toxic.
(Score: 2) by NoMaster on Sunday April 26 2015, @11:28PM
Perhaps then, in those cases where you've heavily edited or re-written the original submission to substantially change its approach, it would be better to make it clear in the summary that the article was 'inspired by ...'?
Perhaps something like "xxxxxxx brought to our attention" or "as suggested by xxxxxxx", rather than claiming "xxxxxxx reports"?
(And to be honest, if the original submission posted above is correct, I don't see that you've gained anything by changing it - it was always going to be the usual pointless shitstorm of anti-SystemD comments anyway...)
Live free or fuck off and take your naïve Libertarian fantasies with you...
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday April 27 2015, @12:07AM
Odd... now that I've read the editor's position on this it seems like a good call: the article is terse while retaining some information without giving away any personal biases on the systemd debacle. Also, not all our sarcasm meters are calibrated similarly (even I thought the original summary was an advert).
The article was modified heavily, yes, but the source should still be cited or else we'll have people who go "waah I submitted that story but didn't get any credit for it" (give credit to where it's due).
The source should've been worded in a different way, or at least the original submission quoted and the editor's summary posted as an Editorial note.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday April 27 2015, @07:41AM
this is not the original submitter, but as a fellow soylentil who has experienced similar, i think the main problem is attributing the submission to the original poster after it has been heavily edited. if you are going to edit a submission beyond mere spelling and grammar fixes, it might be worth either mentioning that the submission has been edited or not attributing the submission to the original poster. just my take anyways
(Score: 2) by janrinok on Monday April 27 2015, @09:51AM
OK, I can accept that points that you are making.
Every story is edited. If it hits the front page it should have been seen by at least 2 editors independently of each other. Everyone should simply accept that as a given fact.
We try to give submitters the credit for the effort that they have taken. Some provide only a link and a short 1-line comment, leaving much of the work for someone else to do. If we, as editors, have to write a complete submission based on a single URL it seems that some would expect to be given the credit (and the karma) for a few seconds work, while others want their name removing because what hits the front page is not exactly what they have written. However, I will look at other ways of phrasing the intro to reflect the extent of their contribution but, as this part of the process is also automated to make sure that karma is given to the appropriate person, it is not necessarily just a simple edit. My own personal viewpoint is that, in order to encourage all submissions, we give every submission used the recognition that earns the submitter both karma and future credibility.
However, it is the responsibility of the editorial team to try to publish accurate and unbiased summaries wherever possible. You may have interpreted the original as containing heavy sarcasm where I felt it was being written either as a bait story, or by somebody who genuinely wanted to see his name in print and thought that an 'impromptu' press release type of story was the most acceptable way of achieving that. I did not think that the submitter was worried about attribution - he went to great lengths to remain anonymous yet provide a 'username'. What does it matter that it doesn't mirror his exact submission? There is no karma to be earned by ACs and no future credibility issues either. Our site supports the "sarc" or "sarcasm" tags - this would have been an ideal way of using them to indicate his true opinions on the subject. Furthermore, what might appear as sarcasm to one group of people might have an entirely different interpretation elsewhere in the world.
(Score: 2) by CoolHand on Monday April 27 2015, @11:44AM
My editorial 2 cents:
I saw the original submission in the queue, and noted in our editors notes that it was full of sarcasm, and would never have put it out as submitted (so it would have been really late. So, the only way it would have actually been published is if was rewritten. Most submitters don't submit a story that is trying to sarcastically slam others, so still would like credit even with a heavy re-write. In this case, obviously, the story's intent was changed, and it may have been better to have changed that "reports" to "inspired" or something along those lines. Note that this happened during a very low spot in the submissions queue on a weekend when our volunteer editors have real lives to lead. Also, I don't think it's our intent to beat /. to stories at all. I don't look at that site, let alone think, "Wow, they've just published a story similar to ours, I must rush it out right now!" I don't know, but I bet that we run many stories that they run later, or not at all. If that is the case, then we would be just as much in the "lead" as they...
Anyone who is capable of getting themselves made President should on no account be allowed to do the job-Douglas Adams
(Score: 2) by urza9814 on Monday April 27 2015, @05:58PM
Thank you for the good work editing, and thanks a hell of a lot more for bothering to come explain it in the comments. This stuff is what keeps me coming back! :)
(Score: 2) by janrinok on Monday April 27 2015, @06:27PM
(Score: 4, Informative) by mrcoolbp on Monday April 27 2015, @12:49AM
We appreciate the submission, so thanks for taking the time to do so. I understand you are quite frustrated with how this was handled, but please remember, our editors are encouraged to ensure that stories that hit the front page are informative and free of bias as much as possible. This sometimes means making small edits, and some cases may require more of a rewrite. I'd wager that you took some time putting your submission together (hence your frustration to see that it was "hack-jobbed", but I would say that the story that ran was more well-rounded and useful to the reader. Furthermore, while the text and links were well-formatted on this submission, it did not adhere to our Submission Guidelines [soylentnews.org]:
As some have suggested below, we try to indicate when we aren't using the submitter's words, if we failed to do that, our apologies.
As for the time-to-publish, again, consider that we are doing what we can on a completely volunteer basis. We've never claimed to be the most expedient news source, rather, we aim for fidelity and the quality of the discussion even if it means it take more time for stories to get posted sometimes.
We only have 4-5 active editors right now that do this in their free time after work, on lunch breaks, in airports and hotels, taking time away from their lives and families to do so. We recently got a few talented new editors, but we can always use more people on the editorial team. Editing a single story can take 15 minutes to an hour, depending on the level of research and re-writing necessary. Considering we post around 15 stories a day, and editors often have to do double-duty and submit stories ourselves in order to keep the news rollin', it takes a lot of time to do all that work every single day. If anyone else would like to volunteer, feel free to email me or join us in IRC.
(Score:1^½, Radical)
(Score: 4, Informative) by kaszz on Sunday April 26 2015, @08:29PM
Distributions that aren't botched by default by psyops:
* Slackware
* Devuan
* Gentoo Linux
* Linux Mint
* NetBSD, FreeBSD, OpenBSD, Dragonfly BSD
Know anymore? (useful for desktop and server usage)
(Score: 4, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday April 26 2015, @08:38PM
Have you considered why those haven't been affected?
Slackware is prehistoric. It has very few users because it's damn inconvenient to use. It's just not an option in any business setting. We don't have days to waste with configuring each Slackware installation. So only a tiny handful of hobbyists can afford to waste their time with it.
Devuan is a non-starter. It was a knee-jerk reaction that has ended up as a total failure.
Gentoo users are still waiting for 2007-era source code to compile today. It'll be a few years before they finally get to systemd's earliest releases.
Linux Mint was on the fence about systemd last I heard. Now that both Ubuntu and Debian use systemd, I would not be at all surprised if Linux Mint starts to use it, too.
The BSDs are, obviously, not Linux distributions. And their development teams aren't made up of fucking retards, either. They've shot down previous attempts at switching to Windows-inspired init systems like systemd, and they obviously won't adopt such systems now after seeing all of the problems they've caused for Linux users.
Linux is dead. It's a simple as that. The only distros not using systemd are unusable in practice. Today, if you want an open source, Unix-like system, you have to go with one of the BSDs. They're the only viable options left. Linux just isn't suitable for serious use any longer.
(Score: 2) by kaszz on Sunday April 26 2015, @08:49PM
First they pumped us full with Microsoft because I didn't know better.
Then they fucked up Linux because thats where the users had escaped.
When there was no other place to escape they came for BSDs to force you back into the corporate monolith.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday April 26 2015, @08:54PM
Are you comparing Windows to using a penis pump?
(Score: 2) by kaszz on Sunday April 26 2015, @08:56PM
Such tool actually has a use case :P
I'm not so sure about that software .. ;-)
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday April 26 2015, @09:06PM
"Linux is dead. It's a simple as that."
Why doesn't anyone go and murder the people that killed linux?
An eye for an eye.
(Score: 2, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday April 26 2015, @09:18PM
Sensible people, me included, are not going to kill anyone over software. It's fucking disturbing that you'd even consider murder to be an option.
It's much saner and easier for us just to use one of the BSDs. We get a better kernel, we get a better userland, and we still can compile and run pretty much all of the good Linux software that we've come to like.
(Score: -1, Flamebait) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday April 26 2015, @09:22PM
I bet you wouldn't kill someone for getting you fired because of your social beliefs.
I bet you wouldn't kill someone who was prosecuting you, trying to put you in prison.
I bet you wouldn't kill someone who was campaigning to ban child marriage of girls in your country.
I bet you wouldn't kill someone attempting to evict you from your place of living.
I bet you would never kill anyone over anything.
You don't believe in anything.
When someone takes something of yours, or tries to degrade your position, the proper response is to kill them in a painful way or to permenantly maim them as a reminder to them, the parents that raised them and instilled in them these beliefs against yours, and others like them.
(Score: 3, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday April 26 2015, @09:33PM
>I bet you wouldn't kill someone who was campaigning to ban child marriage of girls in your country.
It's creepy that you believe banning pedophilia is something worth killing people over.
Your priorities and your moral compass are both totally fucked in the head, pal.
(Score: -1, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday April 26 2015, @09:47PM
It absolutely is justified.
Deuteronomy 22 28-29, hebrew.
Young girls are what made men want to live in the past.
Taking that away is a good reason to kill.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday April 26 2015, @09:18PM
Why won't Devuan get their act together and fucking DO something.
I've forked 2 opensource projects and created various others from scratch.
I have no problem making releases.
Their job is simply to compile programs!
I offered to help, they banned me (no anti-feminists allowed in Devuan either).
Fucking faggots.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday April 26 2015, @09:21PM
It was obvious from the beginning that Devuan was going to be a failure. The name alone was dumb. I followed the discussion in one of their IRC channels at times, and it was inane. It was clear that it wasn't going to go anywhere.
(Score: -1, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday April 26 2015, @09:32PM
Can we find them and beat the shit out of them for the bannings and the false hope.
They took money for nothing, in many parts of the world a death sentance is appropriate when you scam people like that.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday April 26 2015, @09:34PM
That pot smoking Jaromil piece of shit should be killed when he runs off with the money.
Just an opinion.
(Score: 2, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday April 26 2015, @09:36PM
What the relationship with feminism and systemd ?
Why do you want to marry little girl, are you a pedophile, so emotionally insecure that you cannot imagine living with a woman as your equals, not your subordinate opinionated slave ?
Even if you were the best packager alive, everyone sane would ban you to avoid your continuous schizoid crypto-islamo-fascist drivel...
Move to Syria and leave the civilized world alone....
(Score: 2, Disagree) by kaszz on Sunday April 26 2015, @09:39PM
No such claim found in parent poster.
(Score: 2, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday April 26 2015, @09:47PM
read the first post, then read the parent post.... the grammatical style is the same as the one i replied to.
(Score: -1, Flamebait) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday April 26 2015, @09:51PM
Young girls are cute, women are not usually.
Young girls are nice, women are not.
The old testament allows men to have young girls.
Deuteronomy 22 28-29, hebrew.
Including in cases of the man raping that female child.
>Move to Syria and leave the civilized world alone....
"Go leave your family and die in a bombing"
Basically you are saying the equivalent of: go get a german shepard.
If you want a kitten, go and die you piece of shit.
(Score: 5, Touché) by janrinok on Sunday April 26 2015, @09:43PM
MikeeUSA - is that you?
Why should any distro 'allow' or 'deny' anti feminists to join their ranks. What have your views on the feminist movement got to do with writing professional quality software? Can you not see that your personal opinions have nothing to do with supporting software? I suspect that the Devuan team are judging potential members on their coding abilities and proven track record rather than any hangups or personal baggage that volunteers might be carrying.
(Score: -1, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday April 26 2015, @09:55PM
They denyed because of anti-feminist beliefs. Then they deleted my emails.
And why should they allow?
Because they haven't produced a thing. They can't even seem to compile other people's software.
I've forked multiple projects, and started multiple others from scratch.
What have they done?
Jack Shit.
And yet they are "better" than I.
(Score: 2) by janrinok on Monday April 27 2015, @03:20PM
(Score: 2) by Marand on Monday April 27 2015, @03:17AM
MikeeUSA - is that you?
I saw at least two AC remarks about gpcslots2 being rejected from Debian (while omitting that it's a badly coded pile of shit that's full of asshole "easter eggs" and unsuitable for inclusion in any distro), and one about forking Xonotic, both common things MikeeUSA bitches about. It's clear that he's either posting here again or somebody thinks it's fun to play at being MikeeUSA for trolling purposes.
For what it's worth, he probably doesn't even have any real objection to systemd, he's just using it as another way to attack Debian because he's deranged and decided long ago to target it for whatever crazy-fuck reason he really has. It's the same thing that happened when there was that silly wine bug in testing and both SN and Slashdot got hit with AC submissions slamming the distro for it (the testing cycle reveals and fixes bugs. OMG!), along with a slew of other trivial gripes. Every time, he showed up to push his agenda in the comments if the submissions got accepted.
Unfortunately, all he's managed to do so far is convince the Debian folks that anybody that doesn't approve of the move to implement systemd for Jessie is a Mikee apologist and supporter, such as the remark made in this post by Russell Coker [coker.com.au]. If Mikee's real goal was to get legitimate anti-systemd sentiment ignored because everyone's more focused on his attention-grabbing bullshit, he did a great job.
Too late for it to matter (not that it ever did), but my thought on it is that Jessie should have defaulted to sysvinit + systemd-shim for the purpose of appeasing the desktop components, with intent to move to systemd-init for the next stable release. More testing time, more chance to squash the edge case problems, and a more gradual migration. Maybe with an installer option to use systemd-init. The switch felt rushed, with political motives overriding the generally conservative and cautious migrations Debian usually favours.
(Score: -1, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Monday April 27 2015, @07:51PM
>(while omitting that it's a badly coded pile of shit that's full of asshole "easter eggs" and unsuitable for inclusion in any distro)
Tell us about these easter eggs that the game is "full" of.
Tell us why, if a game uses "If" statements rather than switch statements while waiting for user input, it is "badly coded and should be kept out of distros".
Tell us about other textconsole casino games for Nix not by the author :)
No, The reason, you FUCKING piece of shit (BTW: on of your kind was MURDERED in Pakistan yesterday. THANK GOD (of deuteronomy, not your pro-feminist cuck)), exclude this game
is because you do not like the opinions of the author. No other reason. When you people are murdered it is wonderful. WONDERFUL. Thanks to Putin some years ago also
for killing one of your feminist reporter women in russia.
>Systemd
Systemd is garbage. It is overly complex crap that often runs at 100pct cpu (just like pulse audio even now!) and does the same thing the simpler sysv or sinit does: start up a few programs such as X.
It is also something similar to a rotting stump: lots of holes to burrow into if one so chooses.
(The kernel is somewhat similar, but what can you do: ask the grsec / PaX team)
(Score: 3, Insightful) by Marand on Tuesday April 28 2015, @03:21AM
Tell us about these easter eggs that the game is "full" of.
Tell us why, if a game uses "If" statements rather than switch statements while waiting for user input, it is "badly coded and should be kept out of distros".
I already covered that here [soylentnews.org] (for anyone interested in a brief code examination) and see no reason to do so again. You're a deranged crackpot with some of the worst code I've had the misfortune of reading -- and I've been abusing Perl since the 90s.
As for the rest of your comment, thanks for confirming the "deranged lunatic" remarks I've made with your psychotic ranting. You clearly know fuck-all about me, except for knowing that I think your gpcslots software is rubbish, so the rest of your remark is just lunatic ranting and a desire for my harm based solely on your own delusional fantasies of what you think I'm like.
You need a white jacket and a padded cell, seriously. I'm amazed you haven't been committed to an asylum already.
(Score: -1, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday April 28 2015, @03:54AM
>You need a white jacket and a padded cell, seriously. I'm amazed you haven't been committed to an asylum already.
This isn't soviet russia yet, but you SJWs are working hard to make free thought and free speech illegal: it allready is in every european cuntry you control.
What you think about this supposed software (lol, a perlscript qualifying as software) does not matter.
What matters is the fact that it does what nothing else does, is no worse than just about any other debian-included text console game, and was rejected because the author wasn't an SJW like yourself.
Don't worry, this may come to blows though. Russia has decided to be opposed to SJWism and to physically fight your forces wherever they appear, there may yet be a world war and your kind might be removed from your perch.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday April 27 2015, @05:46PM
Why should any distro 'allow' or 'deny' anti feminists to join their ranks. What have your views on the feminist movement got to do with writing professional quality software? Can you not see that your personal opinions have nothing to do with supporting software? I suspect that the Devuan team are judging potential members on their coding abilities and proven track record rather than any hangups or personal baggage that volunteers might be carrying.
I suspect the problem is not the person's views, but rather that he drags them into any disagreement he has with the other team members. Who wants to work with that kind of crap constantly blowing up?
(Score: 2) by kaszz on Sunday April 26 2015, @09:41PM
Makes me wonder. What is it that make the BSDs to resist systemd and other things like it. And for how long will they resist such infiltration?
(Score: 5, Informative) by K_benzoate on Sunday April 26 2015, @10:08PM
It's more that systemd isn't compatible with the BSDs, not the other way around. Systemd is, practically by design, unportable to other Unix-likes. It's Linux specific. It's designed to serve Red Hat's needs to create a complete Linux standard that they can package, sell, and contract support for. Everything about systemd/btrfs/gnome over the last few years has been geared toward making Red Hat's job easier, without regard to what the larger community wants or needs. Everything about systemd makes sense when you realize that Red Hat doesn't view its product as "a Linux distro" but as their own proprietary operating system that they want to control and profit from. They're taking the Linux kernel and creating their own operating system, and the tools they pull in from the community then become wedded to their own standards because they have the dollars to pay the programmers to make the code fit their needs. Tight integration is good for Red Hat, and bad for the rest of the community which needs modularity and options.
Red Hat wants a full operating system stack that they can sell and offer support contracts for. That's why systemd seems to consume everything it touches. They need in-house tools for an entire OS so they can do quality assurance for their customers (mostly the DoD and other large government agencies).
Red Hat is the Microsoft of the Linux world.
Climate change is real and primarily caused by human activity.
(Score: 3, Interesting) by kaszz on Sunday April 26 2015, @10:35PM
So we need to shitlist Red Hat?
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday April 27 2015, @03:36AM
It wasn't already?
(Score: 3, Informative) by Marand on Monday April 27 2015, @03:39AM
So we need to shitlist Red Hat?
Or at the very least, be extremely wary of anything they introduce, because it's entirely for their own benefit, even at the expense of everybody else. RedHat backs GNOME, employs GNOME devs, employs Poettering, etc. They're all known for a heavy "not invented here" mindset, refusal to adopt existing designs and instead preferring to build their own. They also like tying all their disparate parts together and presenting it with a "take it or leave it" attitude.
It works because most people want to avoid confrontations and splits and the like, so they give up and either scrap their work or do extra work to make their code interoperate with the RH/GNOME bits (because RH and GNOME won't do that work). It's not just the big pieces like PulseAudio, NetworkManager, systemd-init, either; they also ignore things like existing notification and systray work (such as done by KDE) to instead create their own "standard" for others to use, along with doing crap like refusing to play nice with non-GNOME apps in regard to window decorations and widget themes, resulting in fucked up situations like the KDE devs creating Qt and Gtk themes to make apps from either toolkit act native in KDE or GNOME.
Hell, GNOME itself only exists because KDE came first and contrarian folk decided "we don't like your license so fuck you we'll make our own" and then stuck with it long after the licensing became a non-issue.
The goal now, which has been stated in the past[1], is to have Oracle-style control of the entire stack, top to bottom. They want GNOME to be the OS, and anything that isn't GNOME or GNOME-created is an obstacle to that. Conveniently enough, the "systemd cabal" (as Poettering called it), wants to obsolete the idea of a Linux "distribution" [0pointer.net], which would conveniently leave RedHat the gatekeeper of modern Linux.
That should be reason enough to want to shitlist RedHat anywhere possible. If I liked Redhat, I wouldn't be using Debian and its offspring distros.
[1] It was in some GNOME dev presentation a few years back. I tried finding it again to link but I can't think of specific enough search terms to filter out unrelated junk and it's not worth spending more time searching than I already have.
(Score: 2) by kaszz on Monday April 27 2015, @07:08AM
Perhaps it's time for the community to screw around with everything Red Hat makes such that it makes corporate life hard. Refuse to accept their APIs rip their GPL code and implement in other ways than they thought of etc. New kernel feature? then fix it up and then make Red Hat to accept or leave it etc.
Someone else have a better idea?
(Score: 4, Funny) by hash14 on Sunday April 26 2015, @11:12PM
Red Hat is the Microsoft of the Linux world.
Going forward, I think the most appropriate name for them would be Redmond Hat.
(Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday April 26 2015, @10:49PM
The BSD developers are generally Generation X'ers, with some even being Baby Boomers. They aren't Millennials (aka, hipsters). That's the big difference.
Maybe it's due to their age or the naivety they were raised with, but Millennials make some really fucking stupid decisions when it comes to software. Ruby on Rails, JavaScript, NoSQL and systemd are superb examples of this. Developers from earlier generations aren't dumb in the same way. They don't make obvious mistakes so readily.
(Score: 2) by Marand on Monday April 27 2015, @03:44AM
The BSD developers are generally Generation X'ers, with some even being Baby Boomers. They aren't Millennials (aka, hipsters). That's the big difference.
Maybe it's due to their age or the naivety they were raised with, but Millennials make some really fucking stupid decisions when it comes to software. Ruby on Rails, JavaScript, NoSQL and systemd are superb examples of this. Developers from earlier generations aren't dumb in the same way. They don't make obvious mistakes so readily.
You might want to rethink your stance on this: Lennart Poettering, at 34, is considered "Generation X" and is responsible for systemd, PulseAudio, and Avahi (among other things). Lumping his decisions into the millennials group is an insult to the millennials.
Bad decisions happen at all ages.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday April 27 2015, @05:44PM
No, somebody who is 34 would be a millennial, not a gen x.
Baby boomers were born between 1945 and 1960. Gen x were born between 1960 and 1975. Millennials were born between 1975 and 1990. They're called millennials because their formative years (10 to 25) were around the turn of the millennium. Those born between 1990 and 2005 are gen z. Those born after 2005 are commonly called recessionistas, due to living most or all of their lives during a global economic downturn.
(Score: 2) by Marand on Tuesday April 28 2015, @02:41AM
No, somebody who is 34 would be a millennial, not a gen x.
Baby boomers were born between 1945 and 1960. Gen x were born between 1960 and 1975. Millennials were born between 1975 and 1990. They're called millennials because their formative years (10 to 25) were around the turn of the millennium. Those born between 1990 and 2005 are gen z. Those born after 2005 are commonly called recessionistas, due to living most or all of their lives during a global economic downturn.
Source for this definition of GenX? and Baby Boomer and Millennial actually...
Wikipedia mentions multiple age ranges that have been used to define GenX and they all include the early 80s.
In a 2012 article for the Joint Center for Housing Studies of Harvard University, George Masnick wrote that the "Census counted 82.1 million" Gen Xers in the U.S. The Harvard Center uses 1965 to 1984 to define Gen X so that Boomers, Xers and Millennials "cover equal 20-year age spans".
Jon Miller at the Longitudinal Study of American Youth at the University of Michigan wrote that "Generation X refers to adults born between 1961 and 1981"
In 2011 "The Generation X Report" (based on annual surveys used in the Longitudinal Study of today's adults) found Gen Xers, defined in the report as people born between 1961 and 1981
Poettering, born in 1980, counts as GenX in every definition except yours, conveniently.
Related: there's also some variation in Millennials, but the definitions for it mostly stick to 1981-1982ish for the beginning and ending around 2000-2004, and "baby boomer" is mentioned as being 1946 to 1964. Every label you defined has been off by 4-10 years.
In my opinion, using your year of birth as a catch-all for negative stereotyping is lazy and ignorant. When the boomers did it to later generations it was considered ignorant, but now that genX is getting older, many are doing it to the next generation down. It's just as dumb now as it was then, even if you're using widely-accepted definitions (which you aren't even doing).
Point is, if you can't find a better foundation for your argument that BSD development is superior than lazy stereotyping based on blaming millennials (that you can't even define properly), then there's probably something wrong with the argument itself. Not saying that you're wrong about BSD devs being superior and the tendency for dumb design decisions elsewhere, just that your reasoning is faulty and you should look for a better answer.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday April 28 2015, @03:49AM
Poettering looks like he's 12.
He should date 12 yr old girls.
(Score: 3, Interesting) by hash14 on Sunday April 26 2015, @11:40PM
In the software world, you generally live on a spectrum of two extremes: on one side, you can do it quick. On the other, you can do it right. Though I should note before going forward that the biggest reason I'm still on Gentoo instead of FreeBSD is because of KVM - from what I've heard, bhyve isn't quite up to par yet, though if anyone has experience with this, please let me know.
I think the heads of the BSDs tend to go more for the latter side. Their products don't have quite as many features or the same degree of performance as Linux, but they are stable and well-designed as hell. The fact that the FBI has NDAs with companies to backdoor OpenBSD [arstechnica.com] suggests that OpenBSD is probably doing things right. The fact that no such issue has come forward in the Linux development community might suggest that they really don't need backdoors to hack it.
On the other hand, Red Hat, driven by their publicly traded corporation-mindset, has lately been sounding off on how they need to support all their customers' wishes and desires. Even worse, they talk like it's the kernel's obligation to provide and maintain these services, rather than their own downstream packages (see the debug fiasco and the kdbus merge which hasn't been going very well either). Their software is increasingly half-baked as they race to get into more fields like cloud services, IaaS, etc. From the outside looking in, it seems that it's a political shithole where the name of the game is to get your product into the market and make money (and to hell whether it's actually good or not).
In Red Hat's world, it's all about the money (which is why they act and sound so much like MS lately). In the BSD world, it's more about the software and the product. So that's where I think the distinction lies.
(Score: 2) by fritsd on Monday April 27 2015, @12:14PM
The way I understand it, is that systemd depends on a Linux-specific kernel feature called "cgroups", a compartmentalization(sp?) of processes.
The BSD's don't have this, so they can't have systemd.
Apparently,systemd uses the cgroups feature to determine which running processes are descended from an init service, so that killing or restarting a service becomes much more accurate (if nothing is alive anymore in the cgroup of that service, then it probably is time to restart it, if it is so configured). DISCLAIMER: I have no practical experience with this.
(Score: 2) by kaszz on Monday April 27 2015, @10:36PM
There's something called jail(8) instead. Perhaps not good enough for systemd usage.
New idea for a license.. "This code cannot be run on a CPU that has been running systemd the last five minutes" ;)
Or "if( sys.systemd ==1 && random(10) >8 ) { panic("unexplainable panic happened!"); }" :D
(Score: 3, Informative) by Nerdanel on Sunday April 26 2015, @09:53PM
Actually, Gentoo keeps its packages very much up to date, especially if you run Unstable. I haven't done a statistical analysis, but I think Gentoo Unstable would do rather well against binary distros. Remember: Someone somewhere needs to compile that package anyway. Not that that actually matters much, as compiles are really fast nowadays as long as you aren't trying to do something silly like compiling your operating system on your phone.
Just so that you know. Almost all packages compile under a few minutes nowadays. Even featureful stuff like Wesnoth and Abiword don't take much longer. Only the rare few get beyond that.
Well, maybe I was responding to a troll that was somehow modded up, but you can take this as a public service announcement. Please stop with the FUD.
(Score: 2) by LoRdTAW on Sunday April 26 2015, @09:59PM
Agreed. To me, Linux, as in GNU/Linux the OS is a dead end. The very foundation, of whats makes it great, open source was ignored. We have warring factions of clans who answer to only their egos and not the community they are trying to serve. There was never a clear path and never any clear goals. It feels like a rag tag team of know-it-alls hell bent on proving they are better at programming and design than Apple or MS and the other OSS projects. Instead they should have focused on their OS and made it WORK for the people while ignoring trends.
(Score: -1, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday April 26 2015, @10:30PM
It was fine before the SJWs took over.
Before systemd, before the kits, etc.
Now it is ruined.
And linus is fine with that.
(Score: 2) by LoRdTAW on Sunday April 26 2015, @11:28PM
Linus is only part of the Linux ecosystem. His only concern is the kernel itself. Above the kernel lies user land where all the real work is done. He has no authority in userland nor does he want any.
Linux the kernel depends on a useful, stable user land. And s far, no one has stepped up to lay down the law on what a stable and useful user-land is. So we have rag tag teams, factions if you will, each with their own goals and each with their own philosophy. And they just fight each other playing Keeping up with the Jonese instead of becoming leaders. Another poisonous mindset is the goal of beating MS and Apple. This leads to projects forever trying to play catch up and following the trend of the day.
GNU/Linux needs a real leader.
(Score: 2) by chromas on Tuesday April 28 2015, @04:47AM
You mean like poettering/systemd? Oh…wait a minute.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday April 27 2015, @12:22PM
Devuan is a non-starter. It was a knee-jerk reaction that has ended up as a total failure.
We shall have to wait and see.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday April 27 2015, @02:34PM
LOL, Bill gates is that you??
(Score: 2) by digitalaudiorock on Monday April 27 2015, @06:34PM
FFS...11 year Gentoo user here. I have no fucking clue what this even means, let alone why people are modding this complete and utter bullshit as +1 Interesting. WTF?? Did anyone even read this?
(Score: 1) by Barnaby on Tuesday April 28 2015, @04:42PM
Gentoo supports systemd, only it's not the default. It defaults to OpenRC.
(Score: 1) by fido_dogstoyevsky on Monday April 27 2015, @12:41PM
Distributions that aren't botched by default by psyops:
* Slackware
* Devuan
* Gentoo Linux
* Linux Mint
* NetBSD, FreeBSD, OpenBSD, Dragonfly BSD
Know anymore? (useful for desktop and server usage)
PCLinuxOS [pclinuxos.com] is still free of it.
I'm playing with it on a netbook, using the Trinity DE version [mypclinuxos.com]. Works well. Recommended for anyone who either remembers KDE 3.5 (and misses it) or never used it.
It's NOT a conspiracy... it's a plot.
(Score: 2) by kaszz on Monday April 27 2015, @10:39PM
Is it up to date with the latest security, drivers and utilities?
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday April 28 2015, @02:44AM
I would have replied directly to the GGP (your post that started this subthread), but the subthread is approaching 51 comments and that situation could soon make life difficult for me (with no account).
Know [any more]?
Sure. A bunch.
The most complete listing of which I am aware:
Operating systems without systemd in the default installation [without-systemd.org]
-- gewg_
(Score: 1) by fido_dogstoyevsky on Tuesday April 28 2015, @04:15AM
[talking about PCLinuxOS] Is it up to date with the latest security, drivers and utilities?
Don't know about security. I'm assuming so, looking at the frequency of additions to their website. I've had no problems with getting the hardware to work. I'm just having a look at it. I am impressed with how it works on my (by current standards) low-spec netbook.
If I had known about it then I would probably have switched to it when I stopped using Opensuse. As it was I tried Slackware first [1] and stuck with it as my primary distro.
[1] I chose Slackware as a way of forcing me to learn Unix so that the change to BSD (to escape systemd) would be easier. It failed, because everything either "just works" or any problems have been trivially easy to solve. [/slackware_shill]
It's NOT a conspiracy... it's a plot.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday April 29 2015, @08:32PM
Ugh, Trinity -- a single guy forked the entirety of KDE 3.
I wish KDE 3 was still maintained, but this guy's attempt at doing it has failed.
(Score: 2) by tangomargarine on Wednesday April 29 2015, @05:49PM
Um, I don't know why you're including Linux Mint on this list...I installed Qiana (and upgraded to Rebecca, which apparently didn't actually involve upgrading hardly anything) and it has systemd.
Looks like the next release is scheduled for late May? Good--I've been having thrashing problems lately and thinking about reinstalling.
"Is that really true?" "I just spent the last hour telling you to think for yourself! Didn't you hear anything I said?"
(Score: 2) by kaszz on Wednesday April 29 2015, @09:50PM
In another list, Linux Mint is listed as system'd free.
(Score: 2) by tangomargarine on Wednesday April 29 2015, @10:25PM
Link please? Because when I type 'locate systemd' I get a big ol' vomit of scrollback.
"Is that really true?" "I just spent the last hour telling you to think for yourself! Didn't you hear anything I said?"
(Score: 2) by kaszz on Wednesday April 29 2015, @11:40PM
Hint, WP ;)
(Score: 2) by tangomargarine on Thursday April 30 2015, @12:47AM
So helpful. [acronymfinder.com]
"Is that really true?" "I just spent the last hour telling you to think for yourself! Didn't you hear anything I said?"
(Score: 2) by kaszz on Thursday April 30 2015, @12:33PM
Wikipedia.
(Score: 2) by tangomargarine on Thursday April 30 2015, @01:03AM
The first thing you need to know about the Linux Mint 17.x branch is that it is using Ubuntu 14.04 LTS as a base. The Ubuntu developers are only introducing systemd to the 15.04 branch. It doesn't mean that the Mint developers can't implement it right now, but they are probably waiting the next LTS, which will arrive in April, 2016. We already know that the Ubuntu-based version won't be getting systemd, but neither will the Debian-based one.
From January of this year, so I guess it's pretty recent. I'm on 17.1 now.
Can somebody tell me a reliable way to tell whether I'm currently running systemd or it's just installed for compatibility?
"Is that really true?" "I just spent the last hour telling you to think for yourself! Didn't you hear anything I said?"
(Score: 5, Informative) by krait6 on Sunday April 26 2015, @10:36PM
I've been running system on Debian ever since the Debian TC decision (~2 years).
I tried it years before that but did not find it acceptable back then.
For the most part I'm okay with systemd on Debian today, but there are a few things I don't like.
The things I've personally run into:
1. /etc/inittab is gone (or if it exists systemd doesn't use it). You can choose how many console VTs start via /etc/systemd/logind.conf but there doesn't seem to be an option to be able to choose which VT is used for X. !? Likewise this also means setting up a serial console has to be done differently (but works fine).
2. By default VTs auto-start getty "on-the-fly" once switching to that VT, but on the setup/laptop I currently have this causes the screen to go blank and never come back. :-( When this happens so far the only solution I've found is to ssh into my laptop via another machine to reboot it. Pre-starting getty on VTs gets around this, but choosing a VT without a getty already running on it still runs into the problem.
3. On Debian there are several daemons that can have their startup disabled via environment variable settings in /etc/default/ files, however systemd does not have a facility to disable starting a service based on the contents of an environment variable. :-( The suggestion of "don't do that" doesn't work because a daemon packages often come with these /etc/default files which are used with sysv-init, yet won't be under systemd, leading to confusion.
https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SystemdForUpstartUsers#A.2BAC8-etc.2BAC8-default_files_which_enable.2BAC8-disable_jobs [ubuntu.com]
4. The meaning of the LSB "$network" header in init.d scripts is read by systemd, but doesn't mean "network fully up with an IP address" like one would expect; rather it means "daemons started with the network" AFAICT. For users of Network-Manager one can do 'systemctl enable NetworkManager-wait-online.service' which can get around this problem. See the "Cut the crap!" section near the bottom of:
http://www.freedesktop.org/wiki/Software/systemd/NetworkTarget/ [freedesktop.org]
5. I had one system (a Lenovo T61p laptop) which acted strangely on shutdown; under systemd, during the shutdown the laptop would occasionally go to /sleep/ instead -- I'd then have to open the lid to wake it up to continue the shutdown process. Occasionally it would go to sleep a /second/ time and requiring a second wakeup before the laptop would finally shut down and power off.
None of these are "deal breakers" (for me) but I'm not the only one running into issues like this. One guy I know of that mirrors my views in a similar way John Gorzen:
http://changelog.complete.org/archives/9299-has-modern-linux-lost-its-way-some-thoughts-on-jessie [complete.org]
And for those of you who wish to stay with sysv-init rather than be upgraded to systemd with an upgrade to Debian Jessie, that can be done with a Pin:
Package: systemd-sysv
Pin: release o=Debian
Pin-Priority: -1
Details:
http://people.skolelinux.org/pere/blog/How_to_stay_with_sysvinit_in_Debian_Jessie.html [skolelinux.org]
(Score: 1, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday April 26 2015, @11:01PM
Holy fuck. Those aren't "oddities". Those range from fucking stupid bugs to outright idiocy.
(Score: 3, Insightful) by krait6 on Monday April 27 2015, @01:30AM
Holy fuck. Those aren't "oddities". Those range from fucking stupid bugs to outright idiocy.
Maybe so, yeah... depends on your perspective.
I run Debian Unstable, so in my experience the issues I've run into with systemd aren't any worse than issues I've occasionally run into with Debian all along. [I've been running Debian for > 15 years.] For instance I've run into issues where the transition from GRUB v1 to v2 broke the ability to boot a hard disk because it had previously been in a Mac and had both a GPT and an MS-DOS partition table and GRUB v2 prioritized GPT where v1 priorities MS-DOS... or an issue where Network-Manager conflicted with Wicd (I was using Wicd) such that neither would work, and Gnome 3 depending on Network-Manager such that one couldn't uninstall it, and the Debian developer of Network-Manager refusing to allow disabling it via an /etc/default file, and refusing to document the conflict in the Install notes.
These bugs are things I found a lot more difficult than the ones that have arisen from systemd.
Debian isn't perfect, and as I get more involved on the development side I can tell it never will be. That just IS. Every other OS seems to have this same "feature". Software is people, people don't always agree, and therefore neither does the software. systemd was devised to sysvinit's job differently than sysvinit did it, as well as many other things, so it's not surprising that it won't do everything sysvinit did and in the same way that sysvinit did it. :-/
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday April 26 2015, @11:38PM
One time I tried to get systemd to shut down networking so I could troubleshoot something.
Eventually, I just rebooted the system to fix the issue I had.
(Score: 4, Informative) by hendrikboom on Monday April 27 2015, @12:37AM
What on earth do feminism, misogyny or misanthropy have to do with systemd? Or anti-systemd?
There are a lot of posts in this discussion that complain about feminism as if it is the key to the whole systemd situation.
I, frankly, don't see the connection. Nor can I even see from the discussion which side of the systemd debate the feminists or antifeminists are on.
Can we keep the discussion on topic? Or at least present evidence that all this pro/anti-feminist stuff *is* on topic? Or else shut up about it if there's no evidence to be had?
(Score: 1, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Monday April 27 2015, @12:44AM
> http://etbe.coker.com.au/2015/04/26/anti-systemd-people/ [coker.com.au]
For some reason the men in the Linux community who hate women the most seem to have taken a dislike to systemd. I understand that being “conservative” might mean not wanting changes to software as well as not wanting changes to inequality in society but even so this surprised me. My last blog post about systemd has probably set a personal record for the amount of misogynistic and homophobic abuse I received in the comments. More gender and sexuality related abuse than I usually receive when posting about the issues of gender and sexuality in the context of the FOSS community! For the record this doesn’t bother me, when I get such abuse I’m just going to write more about the topic in question.
While the issue of which init system to use by default in Debian was being discussed we had a lot of hostility from unimportant people who for some reason thought that they might get their way by being abusive and threatening people. As expected that didn’t give the result they desired, but it did result in a small trend towards people who are less concerned about the reactions of users taking on development work related to init systems.
The next thing that they did was to announce a “fork” of Debian. Forking software means maintaining a separate version due to a serious disagreement about how it should be maintained. Doing that requires a significant amount of work in compiling all the source code and testing the results. The sensible option would be to just maintain a separate repository of modified packages as has been done many times before. One of the most well known repositories was the Debian Multimedia repository, it was controversial due to flouting legal issues (the developer produced code that was legal where they lived) and due to confusion among users. But it demonstrated that you can make a repository containing many modified packages. In my work on SE Linux I’ve always had a repository of packages containing changes that haven’t been accepted into Debian, which included changes to SysVInit in about 2001.
The latest news on the fork-Debian front seems to be the call for donations [4]. Apparently most of the money that was spent went to accounting fees and buying a laptop for a developer. The amount of money involved is fairly small, Forbes has an article about how awful people can use “controversy” to get crowd-funding windfalls [5].
MikeeUSA is an evil person who hates systemd [6]. This isn’t any sort of evidence that systemd is great (I’m sure that evil people make reasonable choices about software on occasion). But it is a significant factor in support for non-systemd variants of Debian (and other Linux distributions). Decent people don’t want to be associated with people like MikeeUSA, the fact that the anti-systemd people seem happy to associate with him isn’t going to help their cause.
(Score: 1) by fritsd on Monday April 27 2015, @11:06AM
It's all very muddled due to the personalities involved.
On the Devuan mailing list, MikeeUSA has been banned now. Twice.
Here's my datapoint: at least one "anti-systemd" Devuan fan is more or less a feminist, not a misogynist anyway. I'll let you draw your own conclusions about my sanity from my other postings here... (oh dear).
So, I can say truthfully that nowadays, the discussions on the Devuan mailing list are mostly technical, and that I personally believe that Devuan *will* release a systemd-less fork of Debian Jessie.
When it's ready.
Mailing list archive: http://blog.gmane.org/gmane.linux.devuan.devel [gmane.org]
Advantages of Devuan, when it is released:
(1) if your system is currently using sysvinit to boot it will stay that way
(2) attempts to stay as flexible and universal as Debian Wheezy. Because Debian Jessie now depends on systemd, and systemd is Linux-specific due to cgroups, Debian is going to drop the option to use a different kernel: The Debian GNU/kFreeBSD option is going to go, I believe
(3) there's a not fully developed idea in the Devuan group and groupies, that core user-space system programs should be simple, discoverable and maintainable. One person is almost finished working on a udev fork (vdev), and I had a crazy (oops.. there's that word again) idea about splitting DBus in three.
About the Debian/kFreeBSD kernel:
https://lists.debian.org/debian-devel-announce/2014/11/msg00005.html [debian.org]
There may also be an unofficial release of kfreebsd:
https://lists.debian.org/debian-release/2015/04/msg00605.html [debian.org]
PS I am not a spokesperson for Devuan and have about as much to say as MikeeUSA.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday April 27 2015, @07:56PM
I hope you're right and they release and become the new debian.
I hope jaromil stops smoking pot and does something with his life.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday April 27 2015, @08:36PM
vdev is a new /dev daemon, not a fork of a existing one.
(Score: 2) by fritsd on Monday April 27 2015, @11:47AM
Hey, AC, aren't you that Australian developer who understands SELinux? I've read your name before.
If so, I'm not surprised that systemd's complexity is not daunting to *you*, after dealing with SELinux.
But consider the many people more stupid than you, who still have to manage production Linux systems for their corporations :-)
I just read your blog post. You wrote "Abuse is evidence of the absence of technical errors.". I disagree, I think the two issues are orthogonal. Also I must protest "the fact that the anti-systemd people seem happy to associate with him isn’t going to help their cause", I believe that he associated himself with the anti-systemd people, which is something those anti-systemd people can't be blamed for.
Are you sure it's more than one misogynist? If so, well.. I really don't know either why the issue attracts those people. It sure leaves a lingering stench of "misogynists" around "us" people opposed to systemd, I can understand that.
Maybe the reason is in your comment on your own blog:
If a feeling of powerlessness to change things leads to frustration, than maybe frustration leads to those kind of comments.
On the topic of the fork: I think Marillat had a lot of work keeping his stuff in sync with fast-moving Debian, but such is life. I wonder why the ancient Debian "non-US" branch was removed, it seems perfectly usable for US-patent-encumbered stuff like libd*dc*s etc.
But the Devuan fork is about approximately 20 packages IIRC, so that's manageable (famous last words).
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday April 27 2015, @01:30AM
It's a push to replace existing software with SJW software that wasn't developed by troublesome individuals who don't conform to their dogma, we see this also in things like feminist programming languages and other such nonsense. The focus on this might be biased, but these trends are nontheless linked.
(Score: 4, Interesting) by Runaway1956 on Monday April 27 2015, @02:47AM
I'm a distro hopper, and I don't care very much about systemd or any other part of the OS. I don't develop, and I'm poorly equipped to evaluate a lot of what the developers offer. I just use the stuff, and make my own rough evaluations, like "This stuff works" or "This piece of crap makes a mess of everything."
Systemd? I've not had a system come crashing down because of systemd. I've not seen any improvement because of systemd. Perhaps the system is potentially less stable because of systemd, perhaps not.
Disclaimer: Being a distro hopper, I quite naturally have NOT attempted to upgrade a years-old installation to systemd. My experience with upgrades, is a single Jessie installation upgrading itself by way of Synaptic. It worked. But then, the movement toward systemd was already underway before this particular distro was published and installed.
Which is technically superior, systemd, or sysvinit? I really can't tell. Both have treated me well. My major frustrations with any Linux distro, have been provided by nVidia and sound (OSS4 vs ALSA). Drivers have caused more problems for me, than all other software combined.
The social ramifications simply haven't interested me. Is systemd promoted by the SJW's mentioned above? Possibly. I can't really care though.
I will note that the AC who posts the most vehement protests agains systemd above is just to hateful for my taste. I strongly dislike feminists, especially the more militant feminists. But, I even more strongly dislike guys who think they are somehow superior to women. I mean - WTF? Some of these guys actually measure their manliness by how offensive they can be toward women? (Remember "upskirt"? Everything they published had references to perverse forms of voyeurism.)
BTW - wasn't Debian forked over this? If you don't like systemd - just install the other brand.
https://devuan.org/ [devuan.org]
This is a big part of the reason I like Linux. It comes in many flavors. At one time, I thought Suse was the greatest things since sliced bread. (It was the first distro that "just worked" on my hardware - then they screwed the pooch by adopting Microsoft ideas and money.) Since then, I've played with nearly everything out there, including China's official offering - what was that, Red Flag Linux?
Come on guys - if you no longer like Debian, just move on. I'm interested in Devuan - but I'm running a Debian Jessie derivative right now. Sooner or later, I'll nuke and repave my OS - I always do - and it may well be Devuan, or a BSD, or Redhat, or - well - if someone here does his own distro, I might boot to that!
Get over yourselves guys. No single part of Linux is THAT damned important. It's the overall philosophy, the greater community that matters.
Well - except maybe for the people who code drivers. And, can we lynch OSS4 developers for not giving us a sweet, one step method to blacklist ALSA and install OSS4? I might bring a firebrand to that party.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday April 27 2015, @02:54AM
Devuan hasn't done anything.
It's unforutunate.
It really is :(.
Maybe you can motivate them or help them.
(Score: -1, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Monday April 27 2015, @04:19AM
Christ, what a retard.
(Score: 2, Informative) by korger on Monday April 27 2015, @06:17PM
Note that many other sources say you should just pin systemd-sysv. If you do that, it will likely pull in systemd anyway, for example by satisfying a dependency of libpam-systemd. If you want to kill the beast, it's better to shoot it in the head, so just pin systemd, and if you find some satisfaction in slaying the Hydra, you can throw in some other components for good measure (not that it would change anything). My "depoetteringize" file under /etc/apt/preferences.d currently reads
Once done with this, replace wheezy with jessie in /etc/apt/sources.list, and upgrade:
You may omit the upgrade step and go straight to full-upgrade, but it's prudent in general to try and resolve as many conflicts as possible with a plain upgrade first, especially if you are upgrading more than just a base system. After that, I booted into Debian 8.0 Jessie, and proceeded with the installation as usual, resulting in a fully functional sysvinit system. I use XFCE with lightdm, so I don't know if this is possible with GNOME/KDE--I believe GNOME already has a hard dependency on systemd, and KDE has been announced to follow suit later this year. I heartily recommend everyone avoiding systemd, keeping sysvinit and taking lightdm and XFCE for a spin!
(Score: 2) by zeigerpuppy on Monday April 27 2015, @10:19PM
A useful tip. I'm sticking with Debian as long as there's still a sane
way to use it without systemd. My servers run on Debian wheezy and there's nothing in systemd that would improve their function. I like my init and logs in plain text thanks very much.
Let's hope that the Debian devs keep this option alive (how about as an option in installer - that would be nice). I guess that eventually someone will need to write a translator for systemd type init scripts to keep it consistent.
FreeBSD is not an option for me because it has no functioning Xen