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Microsoft will use its customers' upload bandwidth to deliver Windows 10's updates and apps with a peer-to-peer technology resembling BitTorrent, a fact that has caught some by surprise.
Baked into Windows 10 is a new technology Microsoft dubbed "Windows Update Delivery Optimization" (WUDO) that is turned on by default for all editions of Windows 10. However, only some SKUs (stock-keeping units) -- notably Windows 10 Home and Windows 10 Pro -- are set to provide updates and apps to other devices when connected to the public Internet.
Windows 10 Enterprise and Windows 10 Education, volume-licensed SKUs for large companies and organizations, also have WUDO enabled, but default to sharing updates and apps only within a local network.
WUDO resembles BitTorrent in its basics, and like that file-sharing technology, uses a peer-to-peer delivery system to spread the load to PCs worldwide rather than relying on a centralized-servers model.
If WUDO is enabled, Microsoft can point others to locally-cached copies of updates and apps on users' Windows 10 devices that are connected to the Internet. When that happens, a user's Windows 10 PC acts as a substitute server for others, and any customer whose device is tapped for WUDO delivery has given Microsoft access to their upload bandwidth.
(Score: 5, Insightful) by Kromagv0 on Tuesday August 04 2015, @07:57PM
So how will this affect those on limited plans or with hidden caps? It will make the average user appear more like the Pirate Bay user. Also is there anyway way one could only pull updates from specific IP address ranges?
One other question that jumps to my mind is can someone use this to push out in mass a malicious update to all windows users or even a modified existing one to be malicious?
T-Shirts and bumper stickers [zazzle.com] to offend someone
(Score: 5, Informative) by frojack on Tuesday August 04 2015, @08:09PM
By a simple setting you can tell windows 10 that your connection is metered, and it won't do WuDO.
By another simple setting you can tell Windows 10 not to use WUDO at all, regardless of connection type.
Articles on how to do this are all over the web.
Microsoft foresaw your worry about bogus malicious updates pushed from some nefarious sources. They use a technique similar to torrents, where your machine will only download/upload signed and hashed portions from/to other machines.
The easiest thing is to just turn it off.
Disclaimer: I've only done the upgrade to 10 on one machine (a Windows Surface Pro (og version), and it went flawlessly.
Everything worked, all applications previously installed worked perfectly.
I found the tablet was much warmer when sleeping (on mains power) indicating it was doing something it never use to do. I went digging around and found online articles, and shut down those features, as well as Cortana.
No intentions of upgrading my work computer (win7) any time soon.
No, you are mistaken. I've always had this sig.
(Score: 2) by Kromagv0 on Tuesday August 04 2015, @08:23PM
Good to know. I haven't made the plunge yet but probably will since I haven't heard of any catastrophic issues. With a lot of features that get added to things security is often not even thought of so it was reasonable to postulate if that was the case here as well.
T-Shirts and bumper stickers [zazzle.com] to offend someone
(Score: 5, Insightful) by maxwell demon on Tuesday August 04 2015, @08:29PM
Is the existence of that option (and the necessity of choosing it) obvious for the average user?
The vast majority of people will not search for articles on the web before getting Windows. Especially if it's preinstalled on their computer.
The Tao of math: The numbers you can count are not the real numbers.
(Score: 2) by frojack on Wednesday August 05 2015, @01:43AM
Microsoft makes an attempt to figure out if your connection is metered. They don't explain how they do that, or how well it works.
Even on a pre-installed store bought computer you are presented with the choices. Admittedly, most are in too much of a hurry to think it through. But as more articles are written on this perhaps some will hear of it.
There will be a more who will learn of security and privacy issues from friends, or when some big expose is written, but sadly, I suspect the bulk will run the recommended settings.
No, you are mistaken. I've always had this sig.
(Score: 2) by Jiro on Tuesday August 04 2015, @09:10PM
I was under the impression that Windows 10 will not let you set every type of connection as metered.
(Score: 2) by frojack on Wednesday August 05 2015, @01:45AM
Why wouldn't they? If you have a metered connection, that accounts for our ONLY connection in most cases.
No, you are mistaken. I've always had this sig.
(Score: 1) by linkdude64 on Wednesday August 05 2015, @06:30AM
The closest analogy I can think of to the situation of Win10 users who "untick the surveillance boxes" is that they've got a gun pointed at their heads, and MS is telling the lUsers that they can choose whether or not they want it to be loaded. How can you be sure it's unloaded? Because they _promise_ it is.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday August 04 2015, @08:36PM
Just figure out how to get a copy of the Enterprise edition.
It allows you to turn off all the shit you'll have to. Stuff like the telemetry, cortana, p2p updates, location tracking/sharing bullshit...and on and on.
(Score: 2) by wantkitteh on Tuesday August 04 2015, @10:18PM
Windows 10 is supports WSUS, so enterprise users can continue to use the same proxy update servers they've been using.
(Score: 4, Informative) by dyingtolive on Tuesday August 04 2015, @07:57PM
I hereby propose new slang:
The Plunge n. "The act of installing Windows 10."
At any rate, here's something for disabling it: http://thehackernews.com/2015/08/windows-10-update.html [thehackernews.com]
Going to try it shortly.
Don't blame me, I voted for moose wang!
(Score: 4, Informative) by frojack on Tuesday August 04 2015, @08:13PM
See also: http://www.theregister.co.uk/2015/08/03/windows_10_privacy_defaults/ [theregister.co.uk]
https://fix10.isleaked.com/ [isleaked.com]
No, you are mistaken. I've always had this sig.
(Score: 2) by dyingtolive on Tuesday August 04 2015, @08:51PM
Those are pretty great. Thanks for sharing.
I'm still baffled at the amount of places they report home in an OS. I watched a few hours of the keynote earlier this year, so I knew that there would be the Cortana stuff, but wow, man. It's kind of out of hand.
Don't blame me, I voted for moose wang!
(Score: 5, Funny) by pixeldyne on Tuesday August 04 2015, @09:42PM
Win10 is awesome, so feature rich that I'll never run out of things to disable 😅
(Score: -1, Flamebait) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday August 04 2015, @07:58PM
So this site is just the same thing as slashdot now, except that the stories tend to be a day late and the comments are a lot more clique-y.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday August 04 2015, @08:23PM
Sorry, I guess I actually thought this wasn't real news.
(Score: 2) by janrinok on Wednesday August 05 2015, @08:43AM
[nostyle RIP 06 May 2025]
(Score: 3, Insightful) by skullz on Tuesday August 04 2015, @08:16PM
Did anyone freak out this much when Blizzard and other game companies started sending out patches via P2P networks? And I pay for those.
(Score: 2) by LoRdTAW on Tuesday August 04 2015, @08:26PM
The difference here is one is a video game, the other is an OS. Much larger install base than Blizzard games.
(Score: 2) by Lunix Nutcase on Tuesday August 04 2015, @08:50PM
So your complaint is that it will have a larger swarm and thus each user will have to upload less? Oh the horrors!
(Score: 2) by ikanreed on Tuesday August 04 2015, @08:58PM
Higher demand. There's a lot of computers that will eat your poor, maltreated upband.
(Score: 2) by MrGuy on Tuesday August 04 2015, @09:01PM
The amount each user uploads isn't tied to the size of the swarm, but to the ratio of uploaders to downloaders in the swarm. Doubling the size of a swarm, while holding that ratio constant, will have no impact on the amount of data each uploader contributes.
(Score: 2) by LoRdTAW on Tuesday August 04 2015, @11:50PM
Are you serious? I was merely making a simple comparison. I was not complaining.
Besides, who gave MS the right to use my utility without asking first? I have to opt-out of bandwidth sharing?
I can picture the meeting:
Suit: Gentlemen, Johnson here has a new idea that will save us millions. Johnson ...
Johnson: Gentlemen. I looked at out current expenditures and I noticed that a lot of money is spent on our Windows update datacenter infrastructure. We pay for bandwidth, server maintenance and energy. What if we integrated those services into our next version of Windows allowing us to downsize our infrastructure by outsourcing it, for free might I point out, to our customers!
Suit: you mean to tell me we can utilize our customers bandwidth, energy, and maintenance for free in order to deliver MS content?
Johnson: Exactly! We wont pay them a dime. In fact, marketing is also making them watch ad's to play solitaire and look up the weather and news. In the future we might even be able to push windows store content from users devices.
Suit: Johnson, excellent work! You are certainly Microsoft management material. Keep it up and one day you too can be on the board. Come my boy ... let us partake in some of Ballmer's private coke stash he left as a parting gift as well as the underage prostitutes he had smuggled in from Belize. (Looks at another suit and boasts in laughter "letting the users absorb our costs for free, oh that's rich. Rich I tell you") They then exit the board room laughing and cheering Johnson's plan to fuck over their very own customer base.
(Score: 2) by iWantToKeepAnon on Tuesday August 04 2015, @09:46PM
"Happy families are all alike; every unhappy family is unhappy in its own way." -- Anna Karenina by Leo Tolstoy
(Score: 2) by skullz on Tuesday August 04 2015, @10:10PM
I... wha... 7!
AFAIK the Bliz downloader makes you a peer on the network. Otherwise you really aren't using P2P, you are tapping into a large redundant network. So VIA as INTO.
(Score: 2) by iWantToKeepAnon on Wednesday August 05 2015, @04:20PM
I probably should have said "IANAG (i am not a gamer)". But on my PC I can be a part of the torrent P2P network as long as I am running a client. So I download a new copy of my favorite Linux distro and I leave the client running long enough to "give back"; but then I close it. So, applying that experience, downloading Blizzard games/updates doesn't mean to me that you are forced into a P2P network 24x7 w/o consent.
So I guess my Q still remains, does Blizzard make you a mandatory part of P2P? Or on an opt-in basis just when downloading/updating? It sounds to me like Win10 makes you a member of a P2P network 24x7 w/o consent. (fwiw I know you can opt-out, but that's a hidden feature you have to ferret out)
"Happy families are all alike; every unhappy family is unhappy in its own way." -- Anna Karenina by Leo Tolstoy
(Score: 2) by skullz on Wednesday August 05 2015, @05:16PM
Ah, gotcha. The answer is no to both Bliz and M$ forcing you to send data to other computers in the P2P network, you can opt out of either one. But it is enabled by default.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday August 04 2015, @08:22PM
It took less than 5 minutes to search google and turn off delivery optimization. No, I'm not going to post the instructions.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday August 04 2015, @08:29PM
I changed my mind...
Here’s how:
Go to Start Start button icon, then Settings > Update & security > Windows Update , and then select Advanced options.
On the Advanced options page, select Choose how updates are delivered, and then use the toggle to turn Delivery Optimization off. When turned off, you'll still get updates and apps from Windows Update and from the Windows Store.
(Score: 5, Interesting) by MrGuy on Tuesday August 04 2015, @08:50PM
Wow, you're really good at Google and everyone else in the world is an idiot.
Oh, wait. Or maybe you missed the point entirely.
The concern is not so much "is it difficult for someone aware of this behavior to find a way to disable it?" but rather "is this behavior most users would expect?" and "is it reasonable for users to expect Microsoft to at least provide notification that this is how their downloader behaves?"
(Score: 1, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday August 04 2015, @09:11PM
It's a new/rebuilt operating system, It's going to have some different stuff. Surely the article could have at least posted the link to the microsoft article explaining what is is, and how to turn it off, but no, lets scare everyone instead. I personally don't like Windows, the only reason I have a PC with it is it's a gaming rig. My main use rig is Linux, I use that for everything else until Linux gaming catches up.
(Score: 1, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday August 04 2015, @08:30PM
In some locked-down environments, you're prohibited from having any P2P software installed, regardless of whether it is disabled or not.
(Score: 2) by darkfeline on Tuesday August 04 2015, @11:52PM
Sure, just recompile from source--HAHAHAHA
In all seriousness, if it's a big enough issue, MS will probably release a version that doesn't have that code. More likely though, they'll just tell you to fuck off.
Join the SDF Public Access UNIX System today!
(Score: 5, Insightful) by MrGuy on Tuesday August 04 2015, @08:44PM
Isn't peer-to-peer delivery the most socially optimal way to use the limited overall bandwidth of the internet? Shouldn't we be encouraging companies to do things this way, as opposed to having a simply massive number of servers saturating a number of network links sending the same 1's and 0's to each end user one-at-a-time?
I get the sad face where telecoms potentially pass additional cost on to users when using this delivery model, which is problematic. But it feels like this is something we should be encouraging huge bandwidth users to do.
(Score: 2, Insightful) by Lunix Nutcase on Tuesday August 04 2015, @08:49PM
Since this involves Microsoft it is automatically wrong and evil. Regardless that others do it as well.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday August 04 2015, @09:20PM
We're talking about P2P tech here, not operating systems!
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday August 04 2015, @09:33PM
But that doesn't suit his internal narrative, which is that everyone else automatically thinks Microsoft are an evil crowd when they're simply some poor hardworking businesspeople who are just doing what they have to in order to get by.
(Score: 5, Insightful) by dyingtolive on Tuesday August 04 2015, @08:58PM
My fuzzy feeling ends when I remember than my upload bw is much lower than my download, and they neither ask permission nor warn you that this is happening.
This is also OS level stuff. Steam/Blizzard? Yeah, whatever. I can quit those if I think it's causing an issue. I mean, I know you can turn this off too, but it's buried inside options that you wouldn't know about. Big difference.
Don't blame me, I voted for moose wang!
(Score: 2, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday August 04 2015, @09:43PM
That they don't tell you is the key, as far as I'm concerned. I have very low upload bandwidth, and my contract won't allow me to install an upload service or a P2P server. Had I installed Windows 10 response times would increase to unpleasant levels, my ISP would investigate, and I'd run the risk of being banned.
Does the package ensure that you're not, for example, gaming online and so uploading plenty of non-Microsoft data?
Also, why should I be subsidizing Microsoft by letting them use my bandwidth? They're a multibillion dollar company, I don't even have a thousandth of that. They can pay their own way, instead of freeloading off my back.
(Score: 2) by maxwell demon on Tuesday August 04 2015, @10:47PM
Imagine what would happen if millions of Windows users got banned by their ISPs due to this Windows 10 feature.
I wonder who would get more backlash, Microsoft or the ISPs.
The Tao of math: The numbers you can count are not the real numbers.
(Score: 1) by rob_on_earth on Wednesday August 05 2015, @09:28AM
Or it could just lead to a great improvements.
Instead of getting N up and N/10 down from your ISP it would have to be just N. And they could not include the "thou shalt not run any servers" clause.
Which in turn would make it more feasible for individuals to run there own servers. OpenId, Identica and TOR exit nodes to name just a few.
Hell! Microsoft could be the internet's salvation.
Maybe not.
(Score: 3, Interesting) by mtrycz on Tuesday August 04 2015, @08:58PM
I thought the same thing.
I'd use it if it was open and secure, for some content delivery like updates. It makes a lot of sense.
Not if it's shoved down your throat, tho.
In capitalist America, ads view YOU!
(Score: 2) by pixeldyne on Tuesday August 04 2015, @09:38PM
It'd be great if there was a setting to make it work on LAN only, I could update all machines without hogging the DSL and would save money on WSUS. Half baked idea, it seems there's a lot of "if only" with Microsoft. oh well, another opportunity for 3rd party vendors to implement it (for home computers especially).
(Score: 2) by Nerdfest on Tuesday August 04 2015, @10:10PM
I think that there actually an option for that.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday August 05 2015, @01:22AM
There is.
(Score: 2) by tynin on Tuesday August 04 2015, @09:43PM
I think the best option is to only have it utilized over the LAN. Fetch once and the whole local network gets a copy without having to go back upstream. This would largely solve the problem of needing to redownload numerous patches when one of your computers gets reinstalled, as another local one would be at the latest patch release and could provide the entire lot. Seems like a pretty huge win for convenience and keeping ISP facing bandwidth usage to a minimum.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday August 04 2015, @09:00PM
good or not, it will teach them lazy global network phiber operators to invest in new
hardware/cable and not just router-optimize to a huge-single-data-node/warehouse : )
(Score: 1, Funny) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday August 04 2015, @09:39PM
You shortened fiber by making it longer?
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday August 04 2015, @09:00PM
If you're taking advantage of the fast downloads from other users, it's not unreasonable to be uploading to other users too. As long as Windows offers a chance to opt out of course, where you download directly (and possibly more slowly) from Microsoft, it seems to be a more efficient way to use the Internet.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday August 04 2015, @09:36PM
I think the point is that you don't know it's happening. "Delivery optimization" doesn't exactly let you know that you're going to be using your limited bandwidth to upload.
My ISP's contract specifically forbids this kind of thing. If I had installed Windows 10 I could be cut off.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday August 05 2015, @05:10PM
When they cut off all their customers, they'll quickly realize how fucking stupid that bullshit is and get rid of it. Your ISP dictating what you can and can't do with the bandwidth you purchase, that is, not Win10.
(Score: 2) by wonkey_monkey on Tuesday August 04 2015, @09:18PM
However, only some SKUs (stock-keeping units) -- notably Windows 10 Home and Windows 10 Pro
Is it me, or does adding "(stock-keeping units)" not really explain any better what a SKU is in this context?
Could've just said "versions" or "variants"...
systemd is Roko's Basilisk
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday August 04 2015, @09:37PM
I though it explained it enough; I thought it meant that some of the differing licenses in their product lines had the behavior by default, and then they list two of those products, but not the SKUs directly.
It is somewhat of a legacy term, predating distribution... but not really with an updated term, so perhaps old is better than legacy. The SKU can be an asset indicator in a spreadsheet that is never printed for products that exist intangibly -- until someone boxes them up with a USB key or DVD as install media -- the idea still works, and the SKU for USB and DVD versions would also differ even if providing the same product to install.
Those stickers with numbers on them on your six pack of underpants from K-Mart--or stickers applied to products that have a number but no price -- those are usually sku stickers.
The cash register folks then ring up the price of the sale by entering in those numbers. People have gone to jail for swapping skus to get a cheaper price, so it's a pretty well known concept.
(Score: 2) by VortexCortex on Wednesday August 05 2015, @12:47AM
Could've just said "versions" or "variants"...
According to software taxonomy I believe one would call them "strains"...
(Score: 3, Interesting) by Gravis on Tuesday August 04 2015, @10:39PM
i'm just curious if anyone has looked into the security behind WUDO because it seems like an obvious vector for abuse.
(Score: 2) by bob_super on Wednesday August 05 2015, @12:32AM
Thanks for finally asking the question I was looking for...
So, In a nutshell, ANY win PC can authenticate itself automatically to quietly download files from some area in my machine... Wanna start a betting pool on how many days before the first Worm using this is discovered?
(Score: 2) by Snotnose on Tuesday August 04 2015, @11:32PM
I mean, it's not like I use even half my upload bandwidth.
In practice, given Microsoft's horrendous security record, no effin way do I want this running on my machine.
Recent research has shown that 1 out of 3 Trump supporters is a stupid as the other 2.
(Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday August 05 2015, @02:50AM
On the one hand, it sucks that lots of folks who probably can't afford the data overage bills are going to learn that they can "easily disable this feature, just google it," after one or more insane bandwidth bill(s) arrives.
On the other, I like the idea of getting the general public to use upload bandwidth. Depending upon what it looks like, it might help to make other traffic that leans upload heavy not stick out so much.
Disclaimer: I don't use windows, so it doesn't directly affect me.
(Score: 1) by spareparts on Wednesday August 05 2015, @09:53AM
I wonder if someone could run a network sniffer to get a list of all users that are uploading and downloading the patches?
He/she could get easily get a list of IPs and infer the versions of software they are running.
(Score: 1) by bornagainpenguin on Thursday August 06 2015, @12:36AM
Okay, so how can we hack the bittorrent protocol via client to appear to be WUDO?