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from the how-many-jobs-do-we-need-to-lose dept.
I came across the following ad on Indeed.com for a software position (copied directly from the ad, including errors):
Please read this job description carefully.
We are looking for solid C/C++ Engineer with valid h1b visa who are currently in US and willing to transfer his visa to our company for long term employment.No 3rd party.
Strong mathematical and analytical skills, in linear algebra, discrete mathematics and statistics. Have a strong knowledge of methods of dynamic programming.
Strong knowledge of parallel computing theory and tools like MPI or OpenMP.
In-depth knowledge of C/C++ language, strong knowledge of standard library and boost library and have a strong knowledge of template meta programming.
Have a solid experience with cross-compilation using gnu tools.
Development experience with Linux Red Hat, embedded Linux, Windows 7 using gnu tools like make, gcc, g++. Have experience with cross platform development and testing using Cmake.
Have a prove experience working with source control system Git, Cvs.
Have a strong knowledge of HPC and cluster's architecture.
Have a strong knowledge of scripting language like bash and python.
Strong object-oriented programming and design skills, like design patternsSalary: $85,000.00 /year
Required experience:
C/C++ experience ,Windows/Unix development: 8 years
Required education:Master's
Is it legal to limit a search to only H1B applicants? Do people see this often? Is it reasonable to expect a US applicant would be difficult to find? Or is it just no one would expect a US applicant to work for the mentioned salary in the Metro Boston area?
(Score: 2, Insightful) by ikanreed on Saturday August 22 2015, @12:56PM
Uh... They don't mean only H1B, you can apply if you want.
They just have such a huge plurality of H1B applicants that they want to filter out those who can't legally work in the US already.
(Score: 2, Disagree) by isostatic on Saturday August 22 2015, @01:00PM
No story here.
I thought H1Bs were "bady paid" and kept wages down. USA median household income was $51,939 in 2013, so $85k is pretty good.
(Score: 4, Insightful) by Kilo110 on Saturday August 22 2015, @01:10PM
85k is certainly over the median of 52k, but that's irrelevant. What matters is how 85k compares to other similar job postings in that geographic area.
(Score: 3, Insightful) by BK on Saturday August 22 2015, @01:17PM
Masters in (presumably) CS with 8 years of relevant experience. Sounds about right for Pierre, SD.
...but you HAVE heard of me.
(Score: 2) by looorg on Saturday August 22 2015, @01:30PM
That said looking at the requirements, or as I like to call it the HR departments unrealistic x-mas wishlist, the applicant should have almost a decade of experience in software development and a masters degree with an emphasis on mathematics etc. I'm not certain that 85k is really that great a pay, but as you note it largely depends on the geographical location.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday August 22 2015, @05:57PM
85K for 8 years experience and a Master's degree? LMAO!
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday August 22 2015, @10:57PM
I live in a town where a Bachelor of Science will net you the national minimum wage, often less when overtime is taken into account, but not having one will pay you more.
Even shelf-stacking supermarket staff earn more than those with a BS.
(Score: 2, Disagree) by ikanreed on Saturday August 22 2015, @01:16PM
Well, they do keep wages down in their field. How much? We don't know.
But the net effect on average productivity in the country is positive. Things can have a collective cost to one group(US born tech workers) and still fundamentally be a net positive once everyone is considered.
(Score: 3, Insightful) by Nerdfest on Saturday August 22 2015, @02:08PM
... for some very unusual definitions of 'everyone'.
(Score: 4, Insightful) by srobert on Saturday August 22 2015, @02:16PM
Yes, things can have a collective cost to one group and still be a net positive. But the notion that driving down wages either increases average productivity, or is a net positive worldwide, is highly dubious.
(Score: 3, Insightful) by Grishnakh on Saturday August 22 2015, @04:11PM
No, $85K is downright insulting for an experienced engineer almost anywhere, and in the Boston area, it's nearly poverty-level. Boston is one of the most expensive parts of the US to live in, probably just under Manhattan NYC.
(Score: 2, Insightful) by Francis on Saturday August 22 2015, @05:24PM
They are badly paid and there to keep the wages down. What you don't see in those sorts of postings is all the extra crap you have to put up with because of your residency status. AFAIK, the H-1B program doesn't require raises and doesn't require that the employer be willing to negotiate over salary in the future.
$85k, might be good, but if they're having to work extra hours or significantly harder with less protection, it still sucks.
I've been in the equivalent position before. And it just blows. I spent a total of 16 months working as a foreign expert in China and you have no job security, you get treated like crap and there's always somebody else available to fill in if they decide they don't like your hairstyle or the way you stand.
(Score: 2) by bob_super on Monday August 24 2015, @04:18PM
I've worked with lots of H1Bs who were pretty happy with their pay, if sometimes annoyed of being at the mercy of the company (known some forced to leave the country because of bad management).
A few days ago, i saw a mandatory information posting for H1B in a company's break room: two mid-level H1B coders making $130k. Not everybody abuses the system
...
Do you know what an H1B gets you? Someone who's typically gonna work harder (not always longer) than the majority of smartphone-toting entitled us-born pricks who now come out of college. It oddly seems that crossing oceans motivates people to prove they're worth it.
(Score: 1) by Francis on Monday August 24 2015, @04:34PM
Of course not everybody does, but by the same token, there's enough that are abusing it and it's getting enough attention that it causes problems. I gave up on getting work in any of those fields because the entry requirements were absolutely ridiculous. Most of the postings I saw were ones that nobody could apply for. The people who could apply for it would never be willing to settle for a low-paying help desk job if they've got that many years of relevant experience.
The whole program itself makes things worse as it reduces the incentive to write job descriptions that are in line with reality and be willing to actually invest in employee development.
(Score: 3, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday August 22 2015, @05:53PM
I make 75k as a support tech in this same city, it's teeming with people. They are targeting an H1B, because the company is an H1B factory, which advertises as such. This salary is abysmally low for the area with the experience required. Around here He should be making roughly 100~125k/yr with stock options generally. If this is downtown Boston, that needs to go up even more. Then add in linux development on top of Windows development...this isn't some guy out of school, where around here you'd make 65k/yr to start. The salary is for someone with about half that experience.
http://www.myvisajobs.com/Visa-Sponsor/Insycom/265869.htm [myvisajobs.com]
(Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday August 22 2015, @01:55PM
I'm not one of the "No more H1-Bs - call your congressman now!" crowd, but this ad does seem targeted to H1-B's, since it's very unlikely they'll be able to find an American with that lengthy list of qualifications (C++, math, distributed computing, master's degree) willing to work in SD for $85K/yr. Of course, what they'll probably get is someone with 1 year of C++ who read web articles on Boost and OpenMP before the interview, and is confident he can pick up the linear algebra, discrete math, and statistics stuff on the job.
(Score: 2) by ikanreed on Saturday August 22 2015, @02:10PM
They just assume they're getting a lot of H1B people. I've applied to plenty of positions including a "please include your Visa information with your application" and gotten responses.
At first when I saw that I was discouraged too. Then I realized that I was dealing with recruiters who are lazy asses who get huge chunks of change for locating our skills. And I asked myself how lazy I'd be in their shoes. Then I got it.
(Score: 1) by Pino P on Sunday August 23 2015, @12:00AM
I've applied to plenty of positions including a "please include your Visa information with your application" and gotten responses.
Depends on what they want my Visa information for. I can think of two legit reasons:
(Score: 5, Informative) by MrGuy on Saturday August 22 2015, @02:07PM
I don't see a reasonable reading of that sentence OTHER THAN that they are looking specifically for H1B candidates.
Most job postings I see will say something like "no sponsorship available" or seeking "legally able to work in this country" if they're looking for either citizens, green card holders, or H1B's. This says....not that. It's pretty specific.
I guess you could argue that they didn't mean it that way, and that they're really looking for EITHER a citizen or H1B, but if so, it's very poorly written. Ironic, given they start with "please read this job description carefully."
(Score: 2) by ikanreed on Saturday August 22 2015, @02:14PM
And this is more an "exception proves the rule" understanding that you need.
If they are demanding people with valid H1Bs then the contextually understood meaning is that they're ruling out people with invalid ones. Then you need to analyze why they're asking that. The natural conclusion is that their client doesn't want to sponsor a new visa, quite possibly because they've exceeded their limit. So citizens would be a good thing.
Now then: is the recruiter an ass who isn't even considering the possibility of an American citizen applying? Yes. Is that a symptom of something dysfunctional? Yes. Does it represent an intent to discriminate? Probably not.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday August 22 2015, @06:02PM
No, this is an H1B factory looking for H1Bs. They bill themselves as such. Google the company, it's one of the first things that comes up.
(Score: 1, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday August 22 2015, @06:05PM
No, this is an H1B factory looking for H1Bs. They bill themselves as such. Google the company, it's one of the first things that comes up. The company website is blank, and for a company of "10" people they've filed 46 requests for H1B visas.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday August 23 2015, @03:59AM
You are an illiterate moron.
(Score: 3, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday August 22 2015, @03:28PM
I think that "...please read this job description carefully..." means exactly that: "We are looking for... Engineer with valid h1b visa"
There is not question of what that sentence says. And we should take it for what it means rather than assuming they meant anything else. Send that advertisement to you congressman.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday August 22 2015, @06:18PM
Indeed. Regardless of some rare exception to the rule, the way it's written would probably make citizens think they're not suppose to apply for the job, or that it is indeed discriminating against them. And that's what matters. I agree, show it to a congressman (that cares about his job) and you'll probably set him on the warpath to get to the bottom of it because this is NOT what those visas are suppose to be for.
(Score: 1) by meiao on Tuesday August 25 2015, @12:25PM
I don't have an H1B and I am legally allowed to work on the USA.
Although I had a really hard time telling this to prospective employers.
(Score: 2, Insightful) by Runaway1956 on Saturday August 22 2015, @01:27PM
It is legal to be biased against American citizens. It is ILLEGAL to be biased against any outside minority group, but biases against Americans, against males, against whites, those are all good.
Abortion is the number one killed of children in the United States.
(Score: 4, Interesting) by ikanreed on Saturday August 22 2015, @01:54PM
-1 Totally and completely incorrect. It's explicitly illegal to discriminate on national origin under the civil rights act of 1964. US is a national origin.
You're right that you could discriminate on citizenship, but that doesn't distinguish between naturalized and natural born. And I'm pretty sure you could make a case in court that such a distinction is arbitrary and intended as a disguised discriminatory policy on national origin.
All-in-all I rate your statement 9 cow pies out of a maximum of 10 bullshits.
(Score: 0, Insightful) by Runaway1956 on Saturday August 22 2015, @02:11PM
Uh-huh. You are technically correct - and Hillary Clinton is technically in violation of laws that would put most people in prison for years. Let's just see how things play out, alright? No one is going to be fined, or spend any time in jail, for refusing to hire an American citizen. That has already been decided by the superjudicial cliques.
Abortion is the number one killed of children in the United States.
(Score: 2) by ikanreed on Saturday August 22 2015, @02:24PM
Yeah, I have no idea where the Clinton thing is going. She may well get a slap on the wrist.
(Score: 2, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday August 22 2015, @03:35PM
Notice how once his persecution fantasy was proven false, he threw in that red herring about Clinton and then you swallowed it hook, line and sinker?
Runaway is a whiny little bitch who makes up lies in order to justify his bigotry and people are forever giving him the benefit of the doubt.
(Score: 2) by ikanreed on Saturday August 22 2015, @03:40PM
Yeah, it's a red herring. Perfectly true.
"Ha! You claim to to care about the justice system and it's rules, but what about [politicized scandal]?" is always going to be vacuous. I was just trying to get the discussion back on course by not caring. I kinda failed.
(Score: -1, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday August 22 2015, @06:07PM
Hillary Clinton is in violation of laws? That has yet to be proven. Seems like you're deflecting from the fact that you are very wrong by using a highly politically charged statement, commonly used by followers of Breitbart, The Drudge Report, and Fox News. Making up a controversy to deflect from bullshit is a skill you've honed well my friend.
(Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday August 22 2015, @07:02PM
She's either in violation of laws or completely and utterly incompetent. Either way, that worthless corporatist fool should get out of the way of Bernie Sanders so the Democrat party can finally put forth a candidate that's at least slightly decent.
(Score: 2) by hemocyanin on Sunday August 23 2015, @03:18AM
Great comment, but one thing I'd add, is that it seems you hear all over that Clinton didn't violate any laws. That seems awfully presumptuous -- Are they really saying that intercepting official communications is not covered by that vast Federal code? I'm sure that buried in it somewhere is a rule making it illegal to intercept the physical mail destined for a public office, hoarding it at home, then destroying it later. I would be shocked if intercepting digital communications destined for that public office, hoarding them at home, and then destroying them later was not also illegal.
Just take a look at, in particular paragraph b, of the following statute. It was one of the things Ollie North was originally convicted on.
https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/2071 [cornell.edu]
(Score: 2) by hemocyanin on Sunday August 23 2015, @03:19AM
oops, blockquote fail there at the end.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday August 23 2015, @12:03PM
So again, she hasn't been proven to have violated laws. The impetus is on the sender not the receiver. As far as has been reported the emails that contained classified material were not marked properly, which would clear former Sec. Clinton of wrongdoing. Having a home server was not illegal until after her term and was a rule specifically created as a "gotcha" against Mrs. Clinton. If on the other hand they find that she did do something wrong, fine. As far as has been reported she's followed the legal advice she's been given and complied with the letter of the law. Just because she's guilty in the court of conservative American public opinion, doesn't mean that holds true in actual law. It's the same reason Pres. Reagan wasn't put in jail for treason, Pres G.W. Bush and VP Cheney aren't in jail for war crimes(which they admit to), and former Pres. Clinton isn't in jail for perjury(which..I mean..c'mon).
(Score: 2) by hemocyanin on Sunday August 23 2015, @05:12PM
1: having a home server is beside the point.
2: I'm not convinced that was legal -- HRC was the only one of those DC scum who used private email, to actually use a private server. All the others used a third party server.
Mostly though, respond to this:
HRC had custody,
of an "other thing",
she willfully (meaning intentionally),
obliterated (deleted contents of) her server,
That's a fucking crime dickhead.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday August 24 2015, @01:59AM
> willfully and unlawfully
Her argument is that everything she did, she did lawfully. All the other words in those statutes don't matter, the question is whether she could do them lawfully or not. She's stated that as head of the department of state it was within her authority to determine what records could be lawfully destroyed.
Whether you agree with her interpretation or not, the question of lawfulness is the key and it isn't addressed in the statutes you've quoted.
(Score: 2) by hemocyanin on Monday August 24 2015, @04:14AM
So what you are saying is that destruction of documents sent to the SOS is legal.
How much you want to be that if some unknown started deleting official documents he had access to, he'd get prison time?
(Score: 2) by aristarchus on Saturday August 22 2015, @08:14PM
Well, looks like we will need more "off-topic" mods, stat!
(Score: 4, Informative) by bradley13 on Saturday August 22 2015, @03:25PM
"Totally and completely incorrect. It's explicitly illegal to discriminate"
Naive. What's illegal is one thing; what's common practice is another.
Discrimination happens all the time, because - unless the person discriminating is stupid about it - it is essentially impossible to prove. "Gee, the guy we hired was a better fit for our company culture", or "Gee, the guy we hired had skill X that you didn't have". How are you going to prove that the real reason was H1B status, or hair color, or whatever?
It is clearly a failure of the government, to allow too many H1B visas. Equally clearly, the US government is pwned.
Everyone is somebody else's weirdo.
(Score: 2) by ikanreed on Saturday August 22 2015, @03:32PM
They talked about legality in their post. It's okay to object to that.
(Score: 1, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday August 22 2015, @04:01PM
How the hell is this rated 4, informative? There isn't a since scrap of information in there.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday August 22 2015, @07:32PM
Being male, white, or American is not a protected class, therefore those that are those things do not get lawful protection from discrimination. Quite simple really. How else do you think women-only or black-only businesses survive when white-male only businesses get sued?
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday August 22 2015, @11:26PM
Nonsense, one's gender, race and national origin are all protected classes.
http://www.eeoc.gov/laws/types/ [eeoc.gov]
http://www.hr-guide.com/data/G714.htm [hr-guide.com]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protected_class [wikipedia.org]
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday August 23 2015, @12:52AM
Citations needed.
(Score: 1, Flamebait) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday August 22 2015, @07:13PM
Give me a fucking break. You privileged little butt hurt whinny little fuck.
White people who have never attended a day of college make more than blacks who have-- it continues all the way up through blacks with advanced degrees making less than whites without them.
Women make 20-30% less than men.
White people, like your ancestors created laws that offered special financing on home loans and educational benefits for your white ancestors while denying blacks the same (e.g., GI Bill). Your family's wealth, and the privilege you still enjoy came from institutionalized racism.
Now the little white losers with all the privilege in the world are butt hurt because there are (small and insufficient) efforts to address these historical and contemporary wrongs. If there was justice, there would be strange white fruit hanging from the trees.
Crawl out of your mom's basement, and ask how she feels about women getting paid 20-30% less for the same job as men.
You stupid little whiny fuck.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday August 22 2015, @07:34PM
You do know that everything you just said was racist and sexist right?
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday August 22 2015, @11:36PM
Don't be that fool who confuses racism and sexism for discussion of racism and sexism.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday August 23 2015, @09:01AM
All men are stupid [theguardian.com]
(Score: 2, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday August 22 2015, @02:39PM
The recruiters said I was a perfect match - because I have considerable experience with Wells Fargo Bank, and their security mechanisms.
The job is a 6 to 12-month CONTRACT, working remote, from home.
The kicker? Candidates need to pay their own way to Charlotte, North Carolina to attend a few days of training and be issued their laptop.
We're talking $1000 just for an unplanned two-day jaunt from San Francisco to Charlotte, never mind the car, the room, and the meals. Call it $1500, all together - most of the expense resulting from the abruptness of the travel and the complete lack of prior scheduling.
I told the recruiter there must be a lot of people sleeping in their rent-a-cars, there, in Charlotte, North Carolina. Good thing it's not winter, yet. He laughed.
The hiring manager hasn't even interviewed me - so it seems likely that I am paying my way to an interview, where I may not even be employed.
I'm pretty sure there is someone in the middle - another recruiting agency, or maybe a crooked manager, there at Wells Fargo Bank - who is embezzling the travel funds.
Don't believe me? Here's the job description [dice.com] - although I was contacted by Kforce Technology.
My read on it is that hiring managers cannot tell the difference between H1-Bs and American citizens any more ... or, more to the point, they don't WANT to distinguish between us - they find it tedious, separating the indentured servants from the citizens.
However, I advised the placement agency that, based upon information and belief, they were becoming involved in an act of embezzlement, and that it would be in their best interests to contact Wells Fargo Bank, directly, and assure themselves that what they were being told was a true representation of facts.
(Score: -1, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday August 22 2015, @03:02PM
You dont have to put North Carolina after Charlotte. People know where the fuck it is. It is one of the largest cities in the United States, with a larger population than Detroit, Seattle, or Boston.
(Score: 2, Touché) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday August 22 2015, @03:22PM
My experience has been that the H1Bs don't necessarily know this. Please be kind to your future masters.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday August 22 2015, @06:16PM
Charlotte is only "more populous" because it's more than double the size and half of Boston proper is water. The Metro region has significantly more people and population density is higher. Keep trying to make Charlotte sound like it's important though..someday someone might care. Everyone knows Asheville is better anyways.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday August 22 2015, @03:50PM
I'm pretty sure there is someone in the middle - another recruiting agency, or maybe a crooked manager, there at Wells Fargo Bank - who is embezzling the travel funds.
I find that theory to be far-fetched. A company as big as Wells Fargo is going to have a very well oiled system for expense reimbursement which is absolutely going to require receipts. That's a lot of forgery for a relatively small reward.
There is definitely something scuzzy going on, but I think its much more likely somebody just screwed up.
(Score: 1) by purpleland on Saturday August 22 2015, @05:54PM
For better or worse, professional accreditation can become a barrier to entry, and indirectly reduce H1B/foreign entrants but not preclude anyone who can get accreditation.
IMO the right approach is to move software engineering/development towards a Profession (like CPA=accountants, bar=lawyers). There is no shortage of material for certifications that can cover the span of a developer all the way to fairly senior management. IMO basic stuff like secure coding practices, some design patterns, UML should be known by all. While more esoteric certifications can cover the numerous specializations we may end up in. Management oriented certifications should involve stuff from OpenSAMM/BSIMM. Good education benefits everyone. Eventually, we (the company and specific engineering division) also become responsible (liable) for portions of software we build.
(Score: 1) by fubari on Saturday August 22 2015, @06:56PM
I see no incentives for demand side (employers) to do this.
And few incentives for the supply side (programmers) to do this.
It won't happen until we have a catastrophe with massive fatalities that was clearly caused by a lack of software engineering. Or maybe a massive data breach that causes the collapse of our current banking system. *shrug* Then you'll see some legislative action to bring it into play, much in the same way other scandals or catastrophes lead to lawyer's bar, or CPA, or medical boards, or professional engineering.
To be fair, software as an industry is barely 50 years old (Countess Lovelace's efforts in the 1840's not withstanding), so give it some time and it will come to pass.
FWIW... safety-critical systems, like fly-by-wire airplanes and air traffic control already achieve high CMM scores. It may be that most software systems simply don't NEED to be more solidly engineered (e.g. it works "good enough" and is "cheap enough" that the stake holders don't mind saving some money when paired with the inconvenience of bugs and sub-optimal systems.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday August 22 2015, @11:44PM
> FWIW... safety-critical systems, like fly-by-wire airplanes and air traffic control already achieve high CMM scores.
Outside of aerospace, the only organizations that give a fuck about CMM are the indian contracting agencies. India has more SEI CMM level 5 [google.com] shops than any other country in the world.
Given that H1B is primarily used by off-shoring companies, [epi.org] I don't think the OP's plan has a chance in hell of making a difference.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday August 22 2015, @07:05PM
For better or worse, professional accreditation can become a barrier to entry
Worse. Lots of people know what they're doing even if they have no professional accreditation, but still many jobs won't take them.
Good education benefits everyone.
You won't get that with shitty certifications.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday August 22 2015, @07:37PM
If you know what you are doing, certs and professional accreditation is easy. We don't let people drive until they have a license even if they have the skill. You must prove your worth for anyone to believe you.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday August 23 2015, @12:43AM
Having recently went thru the trouble of hiring someone. You would not believe the stupid shit people put on their resumes. Oh look you have a masters degree. Nice. Oh its a diploma mill from India. One dude had 10 different open source projects he contributed to. I looked it up (the commits are public) all of it whitespace masturbation and typo fix. Then our HR manager called him in (even though we told them not to). He actually failed fizz buzz.
7 - 10 page resumes. Oh look you went to a conference in 2009. Oh look you have one of the techs I want you to use. Oh you used it once 3 jobs ago for a week.
I was worried about getting a job. After going thru the process of hiring my replacement. I am not too worried anymore. The reason I am hiring my replacement? They want to move me to an area with 3x the cost of living with a minimal pay raise. Just hired someone already in that area.