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posted by takyon on Wednesday September 02 2015, @11:36AM   Printer-friendly
from the trickle-down dept.

If you have been refusing Microsoft's offer to upgrade your Windows 7 or 8* operating system to Windows 10 due to the oft-reported data and telemetry slurping it seems inclined to do, then it is time to be on your toes as to which updates you allow to be installed on your earlier version of the operating system.

El Reg reports that Microsoft are busy pushing similar functionality to those older operating systems by way of Windows Update. The updates in question can apparently be rolled back if required.

They are however very determined in their function if allowed to be installed, going so far as to ignore such venerable solutions as additions to the HOSTS file, which has historically been a way to knobble phone-home behaviour:

Now Microsoft is revamping the user-tracking tools in Windows 7 and 8 to harvest more data, via some new patches.

All the updates can be removed post-installation – but all ensure the OS reports data to Microsoft even when asked not to, bypassing the hosts file and (hence) third-party privacy tools. This data can include how long you use apps, and which features you use the most, snapshots of memory to investigate crashes, and so on.

The updates are KB3068708 ("Update for customer experience and diagnostic telemetry" and mandatory) KB3075249 ("Update that adds telemetry points to consent.exe in Windows 8.1 and Windows 7") and KB3080149 (also an "Update for customer experience and diagnostic telemetry", both optional).


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  • (Score: 4, Informative) by sce7mjm on Wednesday September 02 2015, @11:43AM

    by sce7mjm (809) on Wednesday September 02 2015, @11:43AM (#231203)

    Heres some instructions as to how to disable it

    https://pubs.vmware.com/view-51/index.jsp?topic=%2Fcom.vmware.view.administration.doc%2FGUID-BE82165B-13BC-4FD9-A9CF-FBEF6343D98A.html [vmware.com]

    I'm still on the lookout to see is I can kill it off completely.

    • (Score: 4, Touché) by melikamp on Wednesday September 02 2015, @12:23PM

      by melikamp (1886) on Wednesday September 02 2015, @12:23PM (#231218) Journal
      Here's even more comprehensive instructions: https://trisquel.info/en/download [trisquel.info]
    • (Score: 5, Insightful) by SDRefugee on Wednesday September 02 2015, @12:35PM

      by SDRefugee (4477) on Wednesday September 02 2015, @12:35PM (#231224)

      The trouble with a lot of the "kill it" tips, is that if enough people *do* kill it and MS thinks its not getting its daily dose of OUR DATA, they just send out another "update" to UN-kill it.... I suspect those who value their privacy *and* still use Windows (????) will be playing whack-a-mole with Microsoft from now on.. Soooo glad I moved to Linux completely in 2011....

      --
      America should be proud of Edward Snowden, the hero, whether they know it or not..
      • (Score: 2, Informative) by SDRefugee on Wednesday September 02 2015, @12:37PM

        by SDRefugee (4477) on Wednesday September 02 2015, @12:37PM (#231228)

        They are however very determined in their function if allowed to be installed, going so far as to ignore such venerable solutions as additions to the HOSTS file, which has historically been a way to knobble phone-home behaviour:

        They *won't* be ignoring the DROP rules I put into my firewall to protect the one Windows 7 VM I still have.. (moved to Linux in 2011... and could'nt be happier)

        --
        America should be proud of Edward Snowden, the hero, whether they know it or not..
      • (Score: 1) by sce7mjm on Wednesday September 02 2015, @02:34PM

        by sce7mjm (809) on Wednesday September 02 2015, @02:34PM (#231270)

        Well I've been a linux user (desktop and servers since 2000) and never paid for windows on any of my own personal devices. I still have to support software that runs on windows and support my users so I have accepted a laptop as a trade in and am using that for that purpose.

        I've purged a lot of the crap off windows users and am quite used to turning off the unused services that seem to clog up all of windows these days. These are just others to add to the list.

        It is possible to make windows 7 useable on those old netbooks if you turn off enough crud.

        Microsoft will listen eventually when this harvesting is leaked or it is proven that some form of hack uses the harvesting as an attack vector or discovery leading on to another attack.

        Although the fix will no doubt be in the inevitable subscription only upgrade to windows 10.

        • (Score: 2) by c0lo on Wednesday September 02 2015, @07:44PM

          by c0lo (156) Subscriber Badge on Wednesday September 02 2015, @07:44PM (#231418) Journal

          the inevitable subscription only upgrade to windows 10.

          You, incredible optimistic you!
          You want to say: monthly subscription to security updates or for simply using Windows. But wait, there's more... We'll throw in a free mobile basic plan1,2,3
          --
          1 Subject to terms and conditions: use Windows devices only
          2 limited to calls to Windows devices only
          3 free data quota capped to 200 MB, Skype traffic included.

          --
          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoFiw2jMy-0 https://soylentnews.org/~MichaelDavidCrawford
          • (Score: 2) by Magic Oddball on Thursday September 03 2015, @02:23AM

            by Magic Oddball (3847) on Thursday September 03 2015, @02:23AM (#231527) Journal

            4 Applicable only between the hours of 10pm and 3am GMT.
            5 MS reserves the right to revoke or change terms at any time without warning or explanation.
            6 Offer void in Nebraska [orain.org].

        • (Score: 1) by Osamabobama on Wednesday September 02 2015, @08:33PM

          by Osamabobama (5842) on Wednesday September 02 2015, @08:33PM (#231438)

          It is possible to make windows 7 useable on those old netbooks if you turn off enough crud.

          I am using a mid-level, four year old laptop that is in dire need of what you mention. Can you point me in the right direction? (I am the kind of person who is aware of registry edits, but has never done one, if that helps set the level of discussion required.)

          --
          Appended to the end of comments you post. Max: 120 chars.
      • (Score: 2) by davester666 on Thursday September 03 2015, @05:07AM

        by davester666 (155) on Thursday September 03 2015, @05:07AM (#231575)

        who value their privacy *and* still use Windows

        are mentally challenged from eating too much paste.

        Using Woindows means you don't value your privacy. It's been this way for a long time.

        The only thing new is that now it's Microsoft who is taking your data.

      • (Score: 2) by Teckla on Thursday September 03 2015, @03:16PM

        by Teckla (3812) on Thursday September 03 2015, @03:16PM (#231789)

        The trouble with a lot of the "kill it" tips, is that if enough people *do* kill it and MS thinks its not getting its daily dose of OUR DATA, they just send out another "update" to UN-kill it.... I suspect those who value their privacy *and* still use Windows (????) will be playing whack-a-mole with Microsoft from now on.. Soooo glad I moved to Linux completely in 2011....

        For every 1 chest thumping alpha geek that disables Windows spying, 99 normal people are running Windows without making a single change to the default privacy settings in Windows.

        Microsoft can and will probably just ignore us geeks.

  • (Score: 2, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday September 02 2015, @11:56AM

    by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday September 02 2015, @11:56AM (#231208)

    That's why those of us in the know stay with Windows 98. Win98 Forever!

    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday September 02 2015, @05:32PM

      by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday September 02 2015, @05:32PM (#231359)

      Too bad they took down the patches from windows update :(

      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday September 03 2015, @12:54AM

        by Anonymous Coward on Thursday September 03 2015, @12:54AM (#231501)

        9x hasn't been supported since 2003.
        (The level of "support" 9x got after the release of W2k was quite sad anyway;
        M$ moved up the EoL date from July 11 to June 30 after a vulnerability was revealed that they didn't want to fix.)

        Most importantly, many of the "Windoze" apps written in the last 15 years use NT-only APIs that are not present in 9x.
        (A 3rd-party extension called KernelEx tried to overcome that--with limited success.)

        they took down the patches from windows update

        The phrase that paid (after 9x had been obsolete for years) was Windows 9x Power Pack. [majorgeeks.com]
        (MICROS~1 itself trickled out their 9x updates and never actually released them as a service pack.)

        If you have a 9x-compatible app that you just can't live without, WINE running under Linux is the way to get that going.

        -- gewg_

        • (Score: 2) by Joe Desertrat on Thursday September 03 2015, @02:23AM

          by Joe Desertrat (2454) on Thursday September 03 2015, @02:23AM (#231526)

          If you have a 9x-compatible app that you just can't live without, WINE running under Linux is the way to get that going.

          Some of them still don't work all that well. I just keep an XP box not connected to the internet. When that goes, I'll attempt to find another. If I can't, I may attempt a new Windows PC and keep it offline, or bite the bullet and work harder to get everything working in WINE.

          • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday September 03 2015, @07:29AM

            by Anonymous Coward on Thursday September 03 2015, @07:29AM (#231621)

            Yeah. Some of us were kicking this one around the other day.
            The sticking points seem to be VisualBasic and some versions of DirectX. [soylentnews.org]

            -- gewg_

          • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday September 05 2015, @08:05PM

            by Anonymous Coward on Saturday September 05 2015, @08:05PM (#232712)

            Won't putting XP in a VM do? Probably less hassle than finding another XP computer.

  • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday September 02 2015, @12:02PM

    by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday September 02 2015, @12:02PM (#231209)

    At least my install of it did not automatically install any of the mentioned updates in the summary, nor any others I found after googling. I don't remember doing it myself, but the option to install recommended updates is not turned on, so I only get important updates. There are some of the 'bad' updates in the recommended list, though.

     

    • (Score: 1) by SDRefugee on Wednesday September 02 2015, @12:30PM

      by SDRefugee (4477) on Wednesday September 02 2015, @12:30PM (#231219)

      MS wants to get that crap on the older versions, and I doubt they'll "play fair" by putting those updates into the "optional" catagory. I found a listing of ip addresses that correspond to the the telemetry endpoints, and that list is now resident in my firewall, with a "-j DROP". Of course, the only Windows I have any longer is a Virtualbox VM of Windows 7, that, pretty much only gets fired up occasionally to get security updates.. All of my home machines have been running Linux exclusively since 2011. So far I've not seen any of the listed updates appearing for install on my 7 VM.. But I'm sure that will change..

      Somebody has to say it... FUCK YOU, MICROSOFT.....

      --
      America should be proud of Edward Snowden, the hero, whether they know it or not..
    • (Score: 4, Informative) by martyb on Wednesday September 02 2015, @04:14PM

      by martyb (76) Subscriber Badge on Wednesday September 02 2015, @04:14PM (#231318) Journal

      So how do I know what updates have been installed on my windows system?

      It would be nice to be able to issue a command and get a list of all installed updates, save that away as a file, and then see if any undesirable updates have been installed. I did a search and came upon Quick and Easy Way to List All the Windows Updates Installed on Your System [techsupportalert.com]. It's amazingly simple; as given in that article:

      Open a cmd.exe window
      wmic qfe list brief /format:htable        > "%USERPROFILE%\hotfix.html"
      wmic qfe list brief /format:texttablewsys > "%USERPROFILE%\hotfix.txt"

      Then using an adaptation of code I found at: http://www.robvanderwoude.com/shorts.php [robvanderwoude.com], I came up with: a simple batch program to do all the work for me; I saved it in a file: hotfix_list.cmd

      @ECHO OFF
      :: hotfix_list.cmd - dumps lists of currently installed hotfixes to txt and html files
      :: Get the date in the format; yyyymmdd
      FOR %%A IN (%Date%) DO (
          FOR /F "tokens=1-3 delims=/-" %%B in ("%%~A") DO (
              SET yyyymmdd=%%D%%B%%C
          )
      )

      :: Get the time in the format: hhmmss
      FOR /F "tokens=1-3 delims=:.," %%A IN ("%Time%") DO (
          SET hhmmss=%%A%%B%%C
      )

      :: Dump the installed updates to files based on current date/time:
      wmic qfe list brief /format:htable        > "hotfix_list.%yyyymmdd%_%hhmmss%.html"
      wmic qfe list brief /format:texttablewsys > "hotfix_list.%yyyymmdd%_%hhmmss%.txt"

      --
      Wit is intellect, dancing.
      • (Score: 1, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday September 03 2015, @08:38AM

        by Anonymous Coward on Thursday September 03 2015, @08:38AM (#231631)

        systeminfo | more

        • (Score: 2) by martyb on Thursday September 03 2015, @12:50PM

          by martyb (76) Subscriber Badge on Thursday September 03 2015, @12:50PM (#231699) Journal

          Really? Nice! Thanks for that!! I do notice that it produces only the list of KBnnnnn IDs and lacks the additional information that is provided by wmic, but it is still a very useful tool nonetheless. I'll add it to my toolbox. Much obliged!

          I'm newly on Win7Pro and have not yet delved into the help pages of all the system commands that are available. Guess I'll need to jump in at some point and take the plunge. Or, in light of these revelations about Microsoft's increasing efforts to track users' every activity, take a different plunge and move to a *BSD or *nix.

          Thanks again!

          --
          Wit is intellect, dancing.
  • (Score: 2, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday September 02 2015, @12:17PM

    by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday September 02 2015, @12:17PM (#231213)

    Some people are reporting these are to be avoided as well:

    • KB2505438
    • KB2670838 – Windows 7 Only (breaks AERO functionality and gives you blurry fonts on some websites)
    • KB2952664
    • KB2976978 – Windows 8 only
    • KB3021917
    • KB3035583
    • KB3075249
    • (Score: 1, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday September 02 2015, @12:36PM

      by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday September 02 2015, @12:36PM (#231226)

      Some descriptions for the KBs

              KB2505438 - Slow performance in applications that use the DirectWrite API on a computer that is running Windows 7 or Windows Server 2008 R2
              KB2670838 – Windows 7 Only (breaks AERO functionality and gives you blurry fonts on some websites)
              KB2952664 - Compatibility update for upgrading Windows 7
              KB2976978 – Windows 8 only - Compatibility update for Windows 8.1 and Windows 8
              KB3021917 - Update to Windows 7 SP1 for performance improvements
              KB3035583 - Update installs Get Windows 10 app in Windows 8.1 and Windows 7 SP1
              KB3075249 - Update that adds telemetry points to consent.exe in Windows 8.1 and Windows 7

      • (Score: 3, Informative) by martyb on Wednesday September 02 2015, @01:15PM

        by martyb (76) Subscriber Badge on Wednesday September 02 2015, @01:15PM (#231243) Journal

        Disclaimer; I have not actually tried these, but it came up near the top of a search I did for the terms: wusa uninstall KB3068708 KB3080149 KB3075249

        Fix Windows 7/8.1 Privacy [isleaked.com].

        I'm wary of running commands found on the internet; can anyone confirm/deny the 16 listed KBs?

        --
        Wit is intellect, dancing.
        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday September 02 2015, @01:32PM

          by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday September 02 2015, @01:32PM (#231252)

          My list looks like:
          [Taken from an earlier post on Windows 10/8.1/8/7 privacy ] ---> https://soylentnews.org/article.pl?sid=15/08/26/1148248&from=rss [soylentnews.org]

          ====================================================================================
          Obligatory list of updates to remove:

          KB2652664 Compatibility update for upgrading Windows 7
          KB2976978 Compatibility update for Windows 8.1 and Windows 8
          KB3080149 Update for customer experience and diagnostic telemetry
          KB3068708 Update for customer experience and diagnostic telemetry
          KB3022345 Update for customer experience and diagnostic telemetry
          KB2952664 Compatibility update for upgrading Windows 7
          KB2990214 Update that enables you to upgrade from Windows 7 to a later version of Windows
          KB3035583 Update installs Get Windows 10 app in Windows 8.1 and Windows 7 SP1
          KB971033 Description of the update for Windows Activation Technologies
          KB3021917 Update to Windows 7 SP1 for performance improvements
          KB3044374 Update that enables you to upgrade from Windows 8.1 to a later version of Windows
          KB3075249 Update that adds telemetry points to consent.exe in Windows 8.1 and Windows 7

          Services (commands):

          sc stop Diagtrack
          sc delete Diagtrack
          sc stop RemoteRegistry
          sc config RemoteRegistry start= disabled

          Task Scheduler Library (things to disable):

          Everything under "Application Experience"
          Everything under "Autochk"
          Everything under "Customer Experience Improvement Program"
          Everything under "Media Center"
          "Disk Diagnostic" -> "Microsoft-Windows-DiskDiagnosticDataCollector"
          "Maintenance" -> "WinSAT"
          =====================================================================================

          • (Score: 5, Interesting) by Hyperturtle on Wednesday September 02 2015, @03:05PM

            by Hyperturtle (2824) on Wednesday September 02 2015, @03:05PM (#231288)

            My anonymous friend,

            It seems that you will need to repeat the posting of this data regularly. I fear that without regular promotion, the lack of uproar that people wonder about... seems to be adequately explained somehow by your needing to repost this regularly.

            I would like to see SN take a poll to ask how many people had done the following:

            Windows Updates relating to privacy. Have you, at work or at home, done the following:

            Disabled all updates regarding perceived privacy violation or telemetry
            Chose not to install one in particular
            Chose not to install more than one in particular
            Chose not to install any KBs that seemed remotely threatening
            Chose to do what the security experts told me to do (press next to continue)
            I have Windows 10, you insensitive clod, and I cannot make any decisions regarding updates but at least I know I am secure!
            I don't run Windows, you insensitive clod, I run a superior alternative-- called SystemD!

            And a HyperBuzzardOneal option like:
            I don't use a computer, you ignorant clod, I use a tablet, so none of this privacy stuff even applies to me!

            People can elaborate on the why they did what they did n the comments.

            That may help demonstrate how effective the spread of such information like this (which requires manual user action) actually is when it comes to users choosing to make an informed decision and then actually acting on it through effort made on their own.

            There is sadly no security wizard. And if there was, I probably wouldn't trust him.

            • (Score: 3, Funny) by OrugTor on Wednesday September 02 2015, @04:13PM

              by OrugTor (5147) Subscriber Badge on Wednesday September 02 2015, @04:13PM (#231317)

              I need one more option: Windows Updates permanently off.
              I can't believe people take the risk of updates on a home computer. Mind you, that's easy for me to say, I'm on XP.

              • (Score: 2) by Hyperturtle on Wednesday September 02 2015, @05:38PM

                by Hyperturtle (2824) on Wednesday September 02 2015, @05:38PM (#231363)

                I think "superior OS" would fall under XP's umbrella, but I approve of your addition.

                Sure, XP doesn't have aero or direct x beyond 9c... that probably is a deal breaker for most. Superior being subjective if the graphics aren't as good. Once my norton AV expired in like 2012 or so, the machines have been very fast. Then again, I don't need much for documentation, telnet and ssh...

                I too have a few XP machines in my control; they need nothing more added to them to continue doing what they've been used for. I guess someone could find a way to infect them, but most modern web stuff isn't made for them... and doesn't run right on them (noscript sort of helps in that regard). I even virtualized a few of them, to prepare for the inevitable for when I don't want to replace the hardware or can't find replacement hardware.

              • (Score: 2) by hendrikboom on Thursday September 03 2015, @12:46AM

                by hendrikboom (1125) Subscriber Badge on Thursday September 03 2015, @12:46AM (#231499) Homepage Journal

                I have never installed any updates on my Windows XP system, and just to make sure, I took the hard drive out of the computer and replaced it with one that contains devuan linux. No update is going to get at my Windows on a shelf.

          • (Score: 3, Informative) by Jiro on Thursday September 03 2015, @01:15AM

            by Jiro (3176) on Thursday September 03 2015, @01:15AM (#231510)

            2652664 is not a real one, it's a typo for 2952664, which you also list. And it still needs 2977759 added to the list.

            Furthermore, I mentioned this in my reply to the post that you just copied!

    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday September 02 2015, @02:10PM

      by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday September 02 2015, @02:10PM (#231265)

      http://www.hakspek.com/security/windows-script-to-remove-all-windows-10-telemetry-updates/ [hakspek.com]

      ignore the 'windows 10' in the title, this applies to 7 and 8.

  • (Score: 1) by boltronics on Wednesday September 02 2015, @12:21PM

    by boltronics (580) on Wednesday September 02 2015, @12:21PM (#231216) Homepage Journal

    How is Microsoft getting away with this? Why isn't every Windows user up in arms, trying to sue them and/or switching away?

    Or has everyone with a clue left Windows already? I'm struggling to think of people I know running Windows, and those few that I can think of are for some reason massive Microsoft fans/apologists, or people that only use it for games.

    --
    It's GNU/Linux dammit!
    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday September 02 2015, @12:37PM

      by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday September 02 2015, @12:37PM (#231227)

      autodesk

      • (Score: 2) by mtrycz on Wednesday September 02 2015, @12:45PM

        by mtrycz (60) on Wednesday September 02 2015, @12:45PM (#231233)

        It's not like each and every windows user is an architect.

        Also autodesk should really start porting their software by now.

        --
        In capitalist America, ads view YOU!
        • (Score: 1) by tftp on Wednesday September 02 2015, @05:26PM

          by tftp (806) on Wednesday September 02 2015, @05:26PM (#231356) Homepage

          It's not like each and every windows user is an architect.

          A large number of Windows users are professionals - and as such they need professional tools. Does Linux have an equivalent of QuickBooks? Of SolidWorks? Of Adobe CS? AutoCAD is not the only professional application out there; I do not even know most of them, as they are specialized. Hell, where would one even get Linux software for a car repair facility? I don't think that telling the mechanic/owner to "write it yourself" would be a good idea. Most of the stuff that I have seen is written in VB. Most software that is more complex than Notepad was failing left and right in WINE, so that's probably not an option either.

          • (Score: 2, Touché) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday September 02 2015, @10:29PM

            by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday September 02 2015, @10:29PM (#231472)

            As a scientist, I am quite happy that our professional tools are multi-platform. Where I am the majority of us use linux or Macs. Those engineers can keep their Windows tools.

            • (Score: 1) by tftp on Thursday September 03 2015, @12:43AM

              by tftp (806) on Thursday September 03 2015, @12:43AM (#231498) Homepage

              Those engineers can keep their Windows tools.

              Not just engineers - as I said, a significant part of the industry runs on Windows. Even your doctor's office, by the way. Those digital x-rays are processed and viewed on Windows. It wouldn't be exceptionally complicated to port them to Linux... but there is no convincing reason to do so, and development on Linux costs more. In the end it's all about money.

              • (Score: 1, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday September 03 2015, @09:36AM

                by Anonymous Coward on Thursday September 03 2015, @09:36AM (#231640)

                Which bothers me, because I don't want my personal information on some non-free proprietary user-subjugating piece of trash. There should, frankly, be laws against that. Not visiting doctors just isn't an option. Same for governments and schools: Non-free proprietary software shouldn't be allowed to be used.

                It's not about cost or quality, but about freedom. People who speak of either miss the point entirely and reveal their lack of principles.

          • (Score: 2) by mhajicek on Thursday September 03 2015, @12:30AM

            by mhajicek (51) on Thursday September 03 2015, @12:30AM (#231496)

            Most CAM (computer aided machining/manufacturing) software is Windows based.

            --
            The spacelike surfaces of time foliations can have a cusp at the surface of discontinuity. - P. Hajicek
        • (Score: 2) by Tork on Wednesday September 02 2015, @07:14PM

          by Tork (3914) Subscriber Badge on Wednesday September 02 2015, @07:14PM (#231401)

          Also autodesk should really start porting their software by now.

          They have, but it still works best on Windows. Don't forget that most Autodesk programs use 3D acceleration.

          --
          🏳️‍🌈 Proud Ally 🏳️‍🌈
          • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday September 03 2015, @01:48AM

            by Anonymous Coward on Thursday September 03 2015, @01:48AM (#231518)

            still works best on Windows

            The "still" part reveals how little you know about that company's flagship product.
            AutoCAD was originally developed for UNIX. [google.com]
            It was later that it became Windoze-only.

            .
            There is a (now retired) architect who used to post regularly in the Mint forum.
            He uses FOSS exclusively. [googleusercontent.com] (orig) [linuxmint.com]

            -- gewg_

            • (Score: 2) by Tork on Thursday September 03 2015, @02:09AM

              by Tork (3914) Subscriber Badge on Thursday September 03 2015, @02:09AM (#231523)

              still works best on Windows

              The "still" part reveals how little you know about that company's flagship product... it became Windoze-only.

              Heh.

              --
              🏳️‍🌈 Proud Ally 🏳️‍🌈
    • (Score: 5, Insightful) by LoRdTAW on Wednesday September 02 2015, @12:43PM

      by LoRdTAW (3755) on Wednesday September 02 2015, @12:43PM (#231231) Journal

      Same reason the Linux community accepted systemd. As individuals, we don't really have much say. Sure you can vote with x, x being money, ballot or distribution preference, etc. But after a while some things become status quo and fighting them is almost impossible.

      • (Score: 1) by boltronics on Wednesday September 02 2015, @01:31PM

        by boltronics (580) on Wednesday September 02 2015, @01:31PM (#231251) Homepage Journal

        I'm still fighting systemd. Debian Jessie GNU/Linux here, with a custom pinning file. :)

        --
        It's GNU/Linux dammit!
        • (Score: 2) by Hyperturtle on Wednesday September 02 2015, @02:37PM

          by Hyperturtle (2824) on Wednesday September 02 2015, @02:37PM (#231272)

          Part of my problem is that I've run out of alternatives that don't mind if I retain control of my data. I have to search back in time to get what I want.

          I don't think complaining has done anything, and I don't know who I can give my money to that will provide what I want. Even the idealists have been pushed out of the way in may areas of Linux and have been co-opted by interests that are self-serving. Not everyone of course. And no, I can't code an OS, even if I think it's a good idea. Maybe I can if I tried, but it'd be the survivalist in a shack method of living in society. It would prove to have limitations.

          I'd try to get people together to sue someone about all of the privacy violating stuff, but yeah no one really seems to care. Maybe if we could afford a hot spokesperson, it'd be mentioned a the end of the evening news as the anchor people called us paranoid. It's not free market choice if there are no valid choices. Comcast vs Time Warner makes sense to people, but the whole privacy thing seems to elicit there is nothing to hide mentality. Or the who cares mentality.

          Anyway, it used to be fun to tweak an OS; it used to be difficult to get something working that wasn't normal to do. Now it is difficult to get something working and keep it that way, and secure (and private--I consider privacy to be a part of security, but many do not)... all because Cloud.

          Rather than being ethereal in nature, it is proving to be ether vapors, where we don't know what happens and we're supposed to be stupified and like it. Then they take advantage of us.

          • (Score: 3, Interesting) by TheGratefulNet on Wednesday September 02 2015, @04:39PM

            by TheGratefulNet (659) on Wednesday September 02 2015, @04:39PM (#231336)

            freebsd is a viable alt for many of the things that linux does (in some ways, some things are better on bsd).

            I used to run a lot of bsd at home and at various workplaces. linux was so-so (fun, but not production qual) and bsd was great as a server and kind of, as a desktop. 10 yrs ago or so.

            then, linux got very stable, had great hardware support and there was less reason for me to use bsd. I ran linux for the last 10 yrs or so, with no bsd installs anymore.

            then, systemd happened, and I'm one of those guys who does not like any part of its concept. but since I'm debian-derivative based, I'm getting those stupid systemd updates. it may make me reconsider bsd again. bsd has come a long way in those 10 yrs and its not so obvious that linux is the 'better' of the 2 main unix-like os's for x86/64 hardware.

            --
            "It is now safe to switch off your computer."
            • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday September 03 2015, @02:00AM

              by Anonymous Coward on Thursday September 03 2015, @02:00AM (#231520)

              Have you given antiX a test drive?
              It's based on Debian Testing.
              No Lennart anywhere in sight.

              -- gewg_

            • (Score: 1) by boltronics on Thursday September 03 2015, @02:55AM

              by boltronics (580) on Thursday September 03 2015, @02:55AM (#231538) Homepage Journal

              I'm sure I could get by on FreeBSD if I had to, but I have a preference for GPL software.

              --
              It's GNU/Linux dammit!
            • (Score: 2) by Magic Oddball on Thursday September 03 2015, @04:07AM

              by Magic Oddball (3847) on Thursday September 03 2015, @04:07AM (#231560) Journal

              There's always PCLinuxOS — it's kind of cobbled together from what the creator evidently felt was the best of every other distro (Synaptic package manager, RPM-based, Mandriva-derived admin tools, etc.), but thus far it's systemd-free, offers a pretty wide variety of desktop environments and has possibly the best repository I've found. It's not perfect, but it's at least on par with the other major distros I've gotten into over the years. :)

          • (Score: 2) by hendrikboom on Thursday September 03 2015, @01:06AM

            by hendrikboom (1125) Subscriber Badge on Thursday September 03 2015, @01:06AM (#231506) Homepage Journal

            There's freebsd, there's devuan, and there's funtoo. And there's another one whose documentation is written in an East European or Balkan languages.

            Check out the devuan mailing list. There's lots of people there tweaking their OS, tinkering with inits, writing service supervisors, wifi and network managers, and so forth. The whole trend is toward simplicity, reliability, and choice.

            I'm writing this message in the Chrome browser running on xfce on the alpha 2 release of devuan Linux.

            Runs like a charm.

            The only hacking I've done to it is to remove systemd, which seems still to be in devuan by mistake. It was never the init system. Just another application, fetched in by some system service I had no use for.

            Oh, Copying in the entire Debian /home filesystem, and a few entries frrom its /etc/passwd and /etc/shadow worked like a charm, too.

            -- hendrik

      • (Score: 4, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday September 02 2015, @02:42PM

        by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday September 02 2015, @02:42PM (#231274)

        I don't think your comment is flamebait; I think you're on to something. There's a kind of network effect, discovered by IBM: "no one ever got fired for buying IBM" is a meme that the IBM-ers gladly percolated through their prey/customer base.

        The only counter-effect is that corporations that have to spend a larger percentage of their revenue on IT, are less economically "fit" than corporations that manage an IT infrastructure that is (much) less of a burden. This difference can take decades before it shows the only economic survivors are open source-based corporations.

        In the meantime, new memes are crafted such as "you wouldn't want your customer to reject your contract because you can't produce the correct OOXML document that Everybody Else Expects From You, now would you?", and "what if somebody finds out you don't use Microsoft, and sues you because patents?". It's all about as sophisticated as bad breath pastille advertisements, but that's irrelevant. IT WORKS to keep sufficient obedient "Stockholm syndrome" customers from exploring cheaper and better alternatives.

        • (Score: 5, Insightful) by Marand on Wednesday September 02 2015, @10:00PM

          by Marand (1081) on Wednesday September 02 2015, @10:00PM (#231461) Journal

          IT WORKS to keep sufficient obedient "Stockholm syndrome" customers from exploring cheaper and better alternatives.

          You failed to mention the most complacent Stockholm Syndrome group of all: gamers. It doesn't matter what kind of horrible things the platform does to you as a user; gamers will continue to use it, get punished for it, and then laud it as the best platform because it has some hot new game. Of course they would, though; why wouldn't they? The developers and publishers have been baking "fuck you, plebs" right into the games themselves for so long now that many gamers have literally never known anything else.

          Even ones that are old enough to remember a time when it wasn't so fucked up roll over and give up because of games. I have a friend, nearing his 40s, that still thinks win10 is the best thing ever because of game performance, to the point that he actively defends the privacy stuff and hand-waves it away with "doesn't affect me so I don't care", while another one is concerned but fighting the win7 patches because the alternative would be fewer games and that's important enough to him that he's willing to deal with his OS waging war against him.

      • (Score: 2) by darkfeline on Thursday September 03 2015, @11:41PM

        by darkfeline (1030) on Thursday September 03 2015, @11:41PM (#232035) Homepage

        No, systemd actually does something useful. Simply the ability to do:

        systemctl stop service

        rather than:

        /etc/init.d/service stop; ps -ef | grep service; kill -9

        is a huge boon, not to mention the other useful features.

        --
        Join the SDF Public Access UNIX System today!
    • (Score: 1, Interesting) by SDRefugee on Wednesday September 02 2015, @12:44PM

      by SDRefugee (4477) on Wednesday September 02 2015, @12:44PM (#231232)

      Yup... People with clue and those who value their privacy have moved off Windows.. I run a small local shop that specializes in migrating people OFF Windows onto one of several Linux distros. We also do "windows janitorial services" and up till now, with the Windows 10 fiasco, we'd done mostly Windows cleanup, but I STRONGLY suspect, once the average joe-six-pack realizes the truth about Windows 10 (and 7 and 8/8.1, with these "updates"), we'll have more business than we can support with people wanting to get MS out of their business/lives...

      --
      America should be proud of Edward Snowden, the hero, whether they know it or not..
      • (Score: 2) by mhajicek on Thursday September 03 2015, @12:42AM

        by mhajicek (51) on Thursday September 03 2015, @12:42AM (#231497)

        We have a $20,000+ seat of Mastercam, the use of which is my full time job, and which I've been using for about twenty years. Can you direct me to a non-Microsoft OS that will run it well? Not sarcastic BTW.

        --
        The spacelike surfaces of time foliations can have a cusp at the surface of discontinuity. - P. Hajicek
        • (Score: 1, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday September 03 2015, @02:12AM

          by Anonymous Coward on Thursday September 03 2015, @02:12AM (#231525)

          Last tested 2006-02-07 [codeweavers.com]

          Perhaps you could do your own test and update their database.

          -- gewg_

    • (Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday September 02 2015, @12:59PM

      by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday September 02 2015, @12:59PM (#231237)

      Because people have no idea how much of their information is being collected, analyzed, sold, and used against them by:

      - Marketers as inputs to a ad models of psychological manipulation to buy shit they don't need.
      - Cell providers are selling your metadata to whomever can afford it.[1,2,3]
      - Governments agencies looking for terrorists, child pornographers, or by random NSA agents looking for a good webcam to jerk off to.

      [1] - http://www.technologyreview.com/news/513016/how-wireless-carriers-are-monetizing-your-movements/ [technologyreview.com]
      [2] - https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20150502/08183230858/banks-now-eyeing-cell-phone-metadata-to-determine-your-loan-risk.shtml [techdirt.com]
      [3] - http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2013/12/08/cellphone-data-spying-nsa-police/3902809/ [usatoday.com]

      TLDR; Ignorance and Denial.

      • (Score: 3, Insightful) by bob_super on Wednesday September 02 2015, @04:27PM

        by bob_super (1357) on Wednesday September 02 2015, @04:27PM (#231327)

        But man! Isn't Miley's dress HOT! She could fix deflategate in a heartbeat! Um'gonna retweet it to the bros.

        (priorities, priorities...)

      • (Score: 2) by Anal Pumpernickel on Thursday September 03 2015, @01:56PM

        by Anal Pumpernickel (776) on Thursday September 03 2015, @01:56PM (#231732)

        - Governments agencies looking for terrorists, child pornographers, or by random NSA agents looking for a good webcam to jerk off to.

        As well as harassing random people who it falsely believes are terrorists or some other such thing, and (more likely) attempting to destroy whistleblowers (such as Snowden) and people who challenge the status quo (such as MLK). Mass surveillance is a tool to obliterate freedom and democracy.

    • (Score: 2, Funny) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday September 02 2015, @01:01PM

      by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday September 02 2015, @01:01PM (#231239)

      > switching away

      Yeah, my great-grandma just got pissed about this an installed Slackware.

      • (Score: 2) by fido_dogstoyevsky on Thursday September 03 2015, @12:08AM

        by fido_dogstoyevsky (131) <axehandleNO@SPAMgmail.com> on Thursday September 03 2015, @12:08AM (#231491)

        switching away

        Yeah, my great-grandma just got pissed about this an installed Slackware.

        Good for her. And was she happy with how everything Just Worked, or disappointed because she wanted a problem solving session instead?

        --
        It's NOT a conspiracy... it's a plot.
    • (Score: 2) by Anal Pumpernickel on Wednesday September 02 2015, @02:50PM

      by Anal Pumpernickel (776) on Wednesday September 02 2015, @02:50PM (#231280)

      How is Microsoft getting away with this? Why isn't every Windows user up in arms, trying to sue them and/or switching away?

      I even see some complete dumbasses trying to downplay this and convince others that it really isn't too bad. Not all of them are shills, either.

      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday September 02 2015, @06:18PM

        by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday September 02 2015, @06:18PM (#231380)

        Yes, my brother and his "I don't care I have nothing to hide." I know we are adults now but God I should just beat him like he is 9 still :/

      • (Score: 1, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday September 02 2015, @07:00PM

        by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday September 02 2015, @07:00PM (#231399)

        The downplay goes like this:

        A) You'd have to be really stupid to let Microsoft do this to you as a customer.
        B) I'm not stupid!
        C) Therefore, it's really not too bad.
        D) Hey, look, all those other people are also not actively trying to replace Microsoft! I was right.

    • (Score: 2) by Tork on Wednesday September 02 2015, @07:41PM

      by Tork (3914) Subscriber Badge on Wednesday September 02 2015, @07:41PM (#231416)

      ...and those few that I can think of are for some reason massive Microsoft fans/apologists...

      Massive Microsoft fans and apologists....? Are you sure you're not just referring to people who are better informed on the topic than you? I ask because on multiple occasions I have been called both and in each and every one of those cases it was on Slashdot where reality didn't line up with the inflammatory headline [soylentnews.org]. The damning proof of my fanboyism for Microsoft was that I had, gasp, read the article and was able to rebut a popular-yet-still-bullshit remark.

      Are you part of that group? I don't know. But I will tell you where I come from on this topic, who knows, maybe I'm the first of my kind to cross your path. I prefer Windows to Linux. Is that because Windows is better and I'm a slobbering fanboy? No. It's because it's the best tool for my job. How can that be, you might ask? Because I don't move files around in Explorer for a living. I do work that requires efficient functionality of several apps that are, at best, poorly supported in Linux. I produce files that, for the most part, don't give much of a shit about what OS they were generated in. I am quite fluent in scripting, for example. For that reason I'd 10x rather be in Linux. But that only gets me so far as scripting is only a small part of my task. OSX would be my second choice, though not as well supported as Windows I could at least be somewhat productive. In fact I do dualboot a Macbook Pro as my personal machine. If I have to leave Windows I'm headed to OSX next. Linux is a distant distant third choice. We're talking about me doing work that puts a roof over my head, not about me sitting in my mom's basement splatting my opinion on the internets as if that gives me some sort of purpose.

      As I said, I don't know who you've encountered, but given my previous experience with remarks similar to yours I would strongly encourage you to re-evaluate your "massive microsoft fanboy" assessment of a lot of people. If I'm right then not only will your question about "how Microsoft is getting away with this" would be answered for you, but you'd also have a clearer picture of what's really happening with Windows users who don't consider Linux a viable alternative. And seeing as how that's not entirely Linux's fault, i.e. there are external forces at work, you may want to become more educated on that topic.

      --
      🏳️‍🌈 Proud Ally 🏳️‍🌈
      • (Score: 2, Interesting) by boltronics on Thursday September 03 2015, @03:13AM

        by boltronics (580) on Thursday September 03 2015, @03:13AM (#231540) Homepage Journal

        "Massive" is what I said, and exactly what I meant - except for Person C, the gamer. I know three people who I can say for certain run Windows:

        Person A:
        Microsoft can do no wrong! If they're doing something bad, it's because all the other companies are doing it but nobody cares to notice! Apple's probably doing it, but everyone loves Apple so nobody picks on them. Poor Microsoft!

        Person B:
        Windows 10 is so awesome, so I'm going to post to Facebook telling everyone how much I love it.

        Person C:
        Windows on a gaming laptop exclusively for games. Mac user for everything else.

        Also, the work I do that puts a roof over my head is all GNU/Linux-based - but only because I rejected work that didn't meet my personal ethical viewpoint.

        --
        It's GNU/Linux dammit!
    • (Score: 4, Insightful) by hash14 on Thursday September 03 2015, @01:07AM

      by hash14 (1102) on Thursday September 03 2015, @01:07AM (#231507)

      This is why it's so important to stand up for principle and not take the easy way out. What are people's remaining reasons for using Windows?

      "I'm sorry, but it's just what I'm familiar with and I don't want to learn something new. Aw come on, it's not open source, but is that really such a big deal? Well it's the only thing I can use to get my job done. Sorry, but Gimp just isn't as good as Photoshop. And MS Word is the industry standard, so Libreoffice just won't cut it. The EULA isn't _that_ bad.... Yes, I know Microsoft _could_ do all these things, but they would _never_ abuse their position like that!"

      So people just keep making excuses for themselves and it's just a death by a thousand paper cuts. But things like this show why you have to take a stand - because even back in the mid 2000s before I switched to Linux, I realized that I didn't have any control over my platform, nor did I know how many backdoors were already installed in my Windows machines. And even though it wasn't as big of a deal back then as it is now, I knew that the potential for harm was there and that I had to do something _BEFORE_ it's too late and shit like this starts happening and you have no preparedness to deal with it. So here we are today, and while we do our damnedest to convince people, they are either too lazy, or they refuse to take off their rose-tinted glasses and even consider that organizations they are so dependent on can be as evil as they are.

      And this is also why we also have to fight systemd, and Mozilla, and kdbus, and Google, and the NSA, and the MAFIAA, and the TPP. And have you started noticing how hard it is lately to avoid GTK 3 and the playskool interfaces that they're imposing on users? Because if we just let people get away with things like this, they'll pull even harder before they finally push you over the line when there's nothing you can do about it. If you don't stand for things when they start going wrong, it'll just get that much harder later on down the road.

  • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday September 02 2015, @12:50PM

    by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday September 02 2015, @12:50PM (#231234)

    It's sad and pathetic that it's come to this as a gamer but I'm done with this. From now on my Windows box will be for gaming and occasional Windows development only. A separate Linux box will be used for web surfing, documents and future software projects.

    If Linux ever gets anywhere close to Windows in terms of the supported games, then bye bye Microsoft. Forever.

    • (Score: 2) by VortexCortex on Thursday September 03 2015, @12:55AM

      by VortexCortex (4067) on Thursday September 03 2015, @12:55AM (#231502)

      If Linux ever gets anywhere close to Windows in terms of the supported games, then bye bye Microsoft. Forever.

      Protip: Neither Windows nor Linux can support your games. It is up to the developer to select a cross platform toolchain (rather than a vendor-lockin one) and compile their program for multiple platforms. There's really no reason not to start a new project off with a cross platform toolchain because you get free additional market share for little to no additional development cost, thus publishers are all for cross platform titles. Really, the OS is irrelevant, that's just the BS API my code has to talk to to get to the hardware. However, it's not the game but the toolset which anchors many studios to Windows. The popular 3D and audio authoring tools they use don't exist on Linux (except through WINE). The asset management tools they integrate their game development tool-sets with operate on windows. The compilers the chose to use run often run on windows, or are made by Microsoft, or have horrible ports on Linux (see: Mono, which reminds me of mononucleosis).

      Engine developers are embracing cross platform development, even Unreal 4 supports Linux (see how it's the other way around), but there are many more links in the chain. Drivers you say? Neither Linux nor Windows can support your drivers. It's the hardware manufacturers that create drivers that enable their hardware to work on an OS. Hardware MFGs are starting to adopt support for Linux, but even some who embrace openness are pressured by the MPAA and other parties who don't want a fully open video stack. Microsoft has also been known to do exclusivity deals with game developers / publishers, essentially paying to keep games from running on other platforms.

      As a developer, I've always thought it backasswards to imagine Windows supporting games, or Linux supporting games. That's just not how it works, and it's a bit more than a pedantic distinction. No amount of kernel developer attention could force game devs to compile against an open source ABI. I agree the outcome is the same (less games are compatible with on Linux), but let's give credit (or blame) to whom it's actually due: Developers, Developers, Developers! And maybe even shoot them an email saying something like, "I'd buy more of your games if they ran on Linux or BSD -- anything other than entering my bank/card number into the privacy nightmare that is Windows." They might not change immediately, but if enough people send emails it really can make a difference (see also: #Gamergate).

      That said, I'm seeing a lot of smaller studios support Linux / Mac / Windows with native cross platform compiles, since cross platform engines and compilers exist. When making a game of more than minimal complexity one typically must create things like level editors, asset importers, etc. If you're starting from scratch it's a no-brainer: Use a cross platform engine and make the tools cross platform to avoid tying oneself to the fate of any one platform and gain increased marketshare for free. If you're not starting out from scratch, and in the past you made the bonehead decision to tie your codebase to specific platforms... well that describes nearly every larger studio, and is why less of their games support running on Linux.

  • (Score: 2, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday September 02 2015, @01:13PM

    by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday September 02 2015, @01:13PM (#231242)

    Ars has a much better writeup at http://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2015/08/microsoft-accused-of-adding-spy-features-to-windows-7-8/ [arstechnica.com] , and indicates that these 'features' are easily stopped at the firewall as well as just disabling the services.

    • (Score: 5, Insightful) by PinkyGigglebrain on Wednesday September 02 2015, @02:58PM

      by PinkyGigglebrain (4458) on Wednesday September 02 2015, @02:58PM (#231284)

      I think the main issue here is more that you have to take action to STOP data from being sent to MS than the data being sent in the first place.

      If it was an opt-in with the default being to NOT send data, and have the OS really abide by that setting, no one would have an issue with it and we would all be talking about what we think of the Win 10 start menu instead,.

      Also at issue is the "whack a mole" aspect of this whole thing. Hide an update so its not installed and a new update does the same thing again later or changes your settings back to "telemetry services enabled".

      So while it might be a non issue for you because you know how to disable the right services the other 90+% of Windows users have no idea how to do anything with regard to hiding updates, control panel settings, firewall rules and entries in the hosts file (which apparently gets ignored anyway by some Win services).

      --
      "Beware those who would deny you Knowledge, For in their hearts they dream themselves your Master."
      • (Score: 1, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday September 02 2015, @03:08PM

        by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday September 02 2015, @03:08PM (#231293)
        The other thing is if you did the same sort of thing in some countries you'd be breaking computer crime laws.
  • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday September 02 2015, @01:46PM

    by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday September 02 2015, @01:46PM (#231256)
    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday September 02 2015, @02:01PM

      by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday September 02 2015, @02:01PM (#231263)

      testing will still be available to the GP.

      It may not, in GR's view, be good enough for production. But it'll be good enough for my stuff at home.

    • (Score: 2, Insightful) by cyxs on Wednesday September 02 2015, @02:13PM

      by cyxs (124) on Wednesday September 02 2015, @02:13PM (#231266)

      and when did GRSecurity == Linux?

    • (Score: 3, Insightful) by Runaway1956 on Wednesday September 02 2015, @03:24PM

      by Runaway1956 (2926) Subscriber Badge on Wednesday September 02 2015, @03:24PM (#231301) Journal

      That's just plain silly. I've been running Linux for over a decade, and I've never yet run anything from GRSecurity. I don't see it in any of my embedded stuff at work, it's certainly not on my home machines - it's not there. WTF is GRSecurity? * No one at all, in the world of Linux, IMHO.

      *I read the article, the question is rhetorical.

  • (Score: 4, Informative) by vux984 on Wednesday September 02 2015, @02:59PM

    by vux984 (5045) on Wednesday September 02 2015, @02:59PM (#231286)

    All the updates can be removed post-installation – but all ensure the OS reports data to Microsoft even when asked not to, bypassing the hosts file and (hence) third-party privacy tools.

    Using hosts as a blocking mechanism has never been terribly foolproof. All it does is plug into the local systems name resolution. (DNS) Any system that used static ip addresses renders it moot: if there is no name to lookup there is no DNS involvement at all. This isn't being sneaky to bypass hosts, its just the nature of using an ip address as an address.

    It has also always been possible and easy to resolve DNS from another server to bypass the local DNS resolver, and security tools (and malware) would often do this as a matter of course. Security tools in case the local system was infected and redirecting DNS, and malware to try and dodge local system security software.

    The point is writing that they are "going so far as to ignore such venerable solutions as additions to the HOSTS file" suggests they had to actively do something. All they had to do was use a static ip address or an external resolver. And you know what...using static ip or an external resolver might even be part of the security profile. To dodge malware from modifying the hosts file and easily redirecting microsoft error reporting and telemetry data to a malware server. I feel like a Microsoft shill here, but I'm not. I'm not defending the heavy handed telemetry collection, or the fact that its harder to shut off than it should be, or the fact that the documentation/disclosure is sparser than it should be. I'm just saying that making much ado about "HOSTS" not blocking it is just silly. HOSTS isn't a blocking tool. It never was.

    • (Score: 4, Insightful) by Hyperturtle on Wednesday September 02 2015, @03:44PM

      by Hyperturtle (2824) on Wednesday September 02 2015, @03:44PM (#231306)

      Nor was the simple lock on my desk, or even what came with the house on the front door. Or my garage door opener.

      But I could change those locks, I could make the code harder. I won't keep out anyone determined, and can direct traffic to what name you want it to go to. The OS should not be hijacking those preferences, but yeah malware abused that relationship. That relationship is still being abused, but it isn't from what is the traditional enemy.

      I never expected the home builder to invade my home by exploiting the locks they provided, though, nor having a master key to the locks that fit in the hardware they provided.

      If I want real security, I have to install 3rd party equipment. I shouldn't have to do that to keep my home builder outside of my house and checking to see if I use all of the rooms and how often and what the thermostat is at or how frequently the water heater turns on and what times of the day I am in and out and... oh i mean windows 10 and the stuff I do on that. And who would have thought that they are breaking into older houses they no longer provide new builds of those models -- and checking into what is going on there, too.

      Maybe they want to see why people refuse to trade up? Maybe they are poor? We could send different marketing to them; with enough effort we can send the right message so they know we care! They may throw away mailings, but they can't avoid it when we flash the lights in their face. They have no choice but to hear our message, which will be catered to their interests since it seems they were not receptive to the free upgrade we offered.

      But you're right. Host files don't really help, especially when the likes of an OnHub are making inroads. I used to trust my router but now that is a stupid ideal to believe. That thing looks like it'll be provided as the "cable modem" for their fiber service; everyone else can play me too and buy one for $200. People will, like that guy from Ars.

      In any event -- as the person with the name on the deed of the home I live it, it seems that I have to presume the occupants of my house are the enemy going forward, but it never used to be like that. I am not even sure how they got in, it used to be so easy to just let things run like it did before, with a few adjustments according to my tastes. My guests used to abide to my wishes and if they asked for too much I was disinclined to invite them to return; I might even yawn and kick them out. But these ones... they won't leave.

      And worse, not only are they not leaving, they ignore my direct requests for them to go! And when I wasn't looking, they let more of themselves in by opening up the windows... and I can't seem to close them with the tools provided by the builder! It's like the latch they provided for the windows only works against my own stuff!

      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday September 02 2015, @05:57PM

        by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday September 02 2015, @05:57PM (#231369)

        But I could change those locks, I could make the code harder.

        You could avoid using non-free proprietary user-subjugating software. Regardless of secondary benefits like quality, you'd be using something that respects your freedoms.

      • (Score: 2) by vux984 on Thursday September 03 2015, @05:09PM

        by vux984 (5045) on Thursday September 03 2015, @05:09PM (#231860)

        Nor was the simple lock on my desk

        That misses the point. Since we're going with a desk metaphor. HOSTS is like a personal phone directory or addressbook or rolodex. If you don't want people to use your desk phone to call the pizza place do you think putting a card in your rolodex for the pizza place and a fake number is security measure? Sure, if whomever was using your phone was actually looking up the number in your rolodex, then it might actually foil them.

        But if someone comes along who just knows what the number is, and they dial it... do you act as if someone "bypassed your security"?

        A desk lock is weak security, but it represents an actual obstacle between the people outside the desk and the stuff inside it. It must actually be breached to get at the stuff inside the desk.

        The HOSTs file is just a rolodex on your desk sitting next to the phone. If you want to restrict people from making calls to people you need to secure the PHONE. Putting fake address cards in the rolodex, and blacking out entries in the yellow pages underneath it might disrupt someone sitting at your desk, but to make the case you expect people not to be able to make calls to the numbers you messed with is ridiculous. You didn't actually put any sort of block on the numbers on your phone at all. All you did was mess with the directory listings on your desk, which they might not even need to use.

    • (Score: 1) by SDRefugee on Wednesday September 02 2015, @08:31PM

      by SDRefugee (4477) on Wednesday September 02 2015, @08:31PM (#231437)

      Block this crap at your external hardware router/firewall.... you *do* have one of those, right???

      --
      America should be proud of Edward Snowden, the hero, whether they know it or not..
  • (Score: 2) by Whoever on Wednesday September 02 2015, @03:11PM

    by Whoever (4524) on Wednesday September 02 2015, @03:11PM (#231295) Journal

    snapshots of memory to investigate crashes, and so on.

    Likely to occasionally include passwords. Does the EULA really allow this?

    • (Score: 3, Interesting) by etherscythe on Wednesday September 02 2015, @06:05PM

      by etherscythe (937) on Wednesday September 02 2015, @06:05PM (#231371) Journal

      There's probably EULAs that will be in conflict over this, too. I believe Facebook tells you you're not allowed to share your password with anyone. So, if Microsoft shares it for you, what then? I know it's hypothetical to say they would kill your account, but they would at least be legally in the right to do so - wouldn't they?

      Windows 10 - the digital suicide pill. Hmm, kinda catchy.

      --
      "Fake News: anything reported outside of my own personally chosen echo chamber"
      • (Score: 2) by Zyx Abacab on Thursday September 03 2015, @01:03AM

        by Zyx Abacab (3701) on Thursday September 03 2015, @01:03AM (#231505)

        I highly doubt that! Facebook and Microsoft aren't like you and me; if one of them breaks the rules, it doesn't matter. Only the users can do wrong. That's part of why there's an EULA in the first place.

        Like Chief Wiggum says:

        The law is powerless to help you, not punish you.

        • (Score: 2) by etherscythe on Thursday September 03 2015, @05:08PM

          by etherscythe (937) on Thursday September 03 2015, @05:08PM (#231859) Journal

          No, see, that's exactly my point. Theoretically, your password gets shared by Microsoft without your knowledge or consent, and Facebook kills your account with them even though you reasonably couldn't have expected to know it might have happened, or even had a way to prevent it. No recourse for you, poor Windows 10 user.

          --
          "Fake News: anything reported outside of my own personally chosen echo chamber"
    • (Score: 1, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday September 02 2015, @11:35PM

      by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday September 02 2015, @11:35PM (#231486)

      Think of all the software structured to prevent people from accessing the code: does this put Microsoft at odds with the DMCA and similar circumvention restrictions? They're doing it with the intent of accessing the memory locations, rather than with the intent of simply running the software.

    • (Score: 2) by Nollij on Friday September 04 2015, @01:57AM

      by Nollij (4559) on Friday September 04 2015, @01:57AM (#232083)

      I would be more interested in cases where the data can include things like medical or financial info.
      Things which MS is forbidden by law from gathering.

  • (Score: 3, Insightful) by digitalaudiorock on Wednesday September 02 2015, @03:52PM

    by digitalaudiorock (688) on Wednesday September 02 2015, @03:52PM (#231309) Journal

    MS thinks they can get away with shit like this, but it's only a matter of time before some non-techy media like Forbes starts making noise and the shit will hit the fan.

    This shit is just over the top.

  • (Score: 2, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday September 02 2015, @07:24PM

    by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday September 02 2015, @07:24PM (#231407)

    What would happen if some district attorney decides to convince a judge that this constant stream of information back to MS, Apple, Google etc (from tracking, voice command (e.g. Siri, Cortana...) and all those other things) means that everyone and their lawyer has a reduced expectation of privacy and therefore: no more attorney-client privilege, no more spouse confidentiality and so on? No more warrants.

    Consider that phones are constantly sending voice info (if enabled and connected to the internet) - even the bedroom talk if the phone is on the nightstand. I know that doesn't mean what a dumb DA thinks it means (or a dumber judge), but not understanding tech hasn't stopped them in the past.

    • (Score: 1) by SDRefugee on Wednesday September 02 2015, @08:36PM

      by SDRefugee (4477) on Wednesday September 02 2015, @08:36PM (#231440)

      I GOTTA believe that the "enterprise" version of 10 has this crap turned off, as I cannot for a moment believe that large corporations are going to allow the "data-leaks" that the Home/Pro versions of Windows 10 have... I for one would LOVE to see some wireshark captures of Home/Pro and compare to Enterprise... Should be eye-opening....

      --
      America should be proud of Edward Snowden, the hero, whether they know it or not..
      • (Score: 2, Informative) by Intros on Friday September 04 2015, @04:12PM

        by Intros (4513) on Friday September 04 2015, @04:12PM (#232305)

        From the reports I have read, it's not disabled in the Enterprise versions, and you can't lock many of the new Windows 10 features down with GPO nearly enough.

        The Enterprise fixes are supposed to come in either "Threshold 2" (November 2015 update) or "Redstone" (Service Pack 1 early next year?). I doubt you will see many companies upgrade before those are released, outside of internal IT testing.

    • (Score: 3, Interesting) by jmorris on Wednesday September 02 2015, @09:30PM

      by jmorris (4844) on Wednesday September 02 2015, @09:30PM (#231453)

      What would happen if some district attorney decides to convince a judge that..

      Better one. What happens when a court is facing a suspect with a wiped computer or encryption they can't break and serves paper on MS to open their piggy bank and cough up the logged keystrokes and other collected data. So long as they can keep it quiet, not much. But let it break into the news and it will be a fiasco.

      Kinda like the recent news out of TX where some guys killed a cop and the PD hit the cell companies for every record in a ten mile radius. Remember, the NSA having it might be bad but the carriers have EVERYTHING and they never delete anything. They have location tracking with one minute resolution from the moment they activated your handset to now, which is far more than the NSA had. But they have so far managed to keep that detail from becoming a major national news story, certainly that detail was only in the local coverage. If people realized that phone in their pocket was a LoJack for themselves, and that they were paying to carry that tether, a lot more people would be rethinking it or at least switching it off a lot more.