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Volkswagen has issued a statement regarding the emissions cheating incident:
Discrepancies relate to vehicles with Type EA 189 engines, involving some eleven million vehicles worldwide. A noticeable deviation between bench test results and actual road use was established solely for this type of engine. Volkswagen is working intensely to eliminate these deviations through technical measures. The company is therefore in contact with the relevant authorities and the German Federal Motor Transport Authority (KBA – Kraftfahrtbundesamt).
To cover the necessary service measures and other efforts to win back the trust of our customers, Volkswagen plans to set aside a provision of some 6.5 billion EUR recognized in the profit and loss statement in the third quarter of the current fiscal year. Due to the ongoing investigations the amounts estimated may be subject to revaluation. Earnings targets for the Group for 2015 will be adjusted accordingly.
Volkswagen does not tolerate any kind of violation of laws whatsoever. It is and remains the top priority of the Board of Management to win back lost trust and to avert damage to our customers. The Group will inform the public on the further progress of the investigations constantly and transparently.
From The Register:
To put that in perspective, Volkswagen's profits for the last financial year were €10.85bn (US$12.1bn), so the firm is banking on having to pay out at least half of its profits, and possibly a lot more. The EPA (US Environmental Protection Agency) has already said that the company could be liable for up to $18bn in fine and fix costs, and that was when only half a million cars were thought to be dodgy. As a result, the wheels have fallen off the company's stock price. Shares have nearly halved in value since the firm admitted using the emission-control software, and they are likely to fall further as the scandal unfolds.
Volkswagen's CEO Martin Winterkorn has already issued a public apology for his firm's conduct, and his position is looking increasingly untenable. Rumors of his forced retirement are already circulating, although these are being denied at present.
The case could also have an interesting knock-on effect in the software field. Technically, Volkswagen's software was covered under the US Digital Millennium Copyright Act, meaning tinkerers couldn't have examined and altered the code. The EPA has been lobbying with car companies to make sure the DMCA continues to make engine management software off limits to tinkerers. But based on its experience with Volkswagen, the agency may be changing that stance.
The Electronic Frontier Foundation has been quick to pounce on the DMCA connection.
The BBC reports that this affects 11 million vehicles worldwide, although many of those have passed local emission controls satisfactorily. Neverthless, the same or similar software is believed to be fitted in all those vehicles. The EPA found the "defeat device", the device that allowed VW cars to emit less during tests than they would while driving normally, in diesel cars including the Audi A3 and the VW Jetta, Beetle, Golf and Passat models.
Update: Volkswagen chief executive Martin Winterkorn resigns.
(Score: 0, Offtopic) by MichaelDavidCrawford on Wednesday September 23 2015, @07:00PM
It happens that the nail on my right big toe looks like the claw of alien mutant dinosaur. That wasn't my fault, it was the fault of a subtle ski boot misfit. If anyone is to blame it's the guy who fit my boots at the ski shop.
While strictly speaking I am responsible for my own actions and decisions, and so now - as did Winterkorn - readily admit fault for my growth of a toenail that makes the ladies run screaming when they disrobe me, I did not forsee that my boot would lead my toe to blister underneath my toenail. In much as the same way that "Every Diety Possesseth the Insight to Foretell the Future Yet G-d Almighty Himself Possesseth Not the Power to Undo the Past", really the best course of action is for me to consult a podiatrist, get some prescription antifungal ointment, then send a polite, friendly, helpful and constructive letter to the sporting goods store to suggest that boots be fitted individually rather than as pairs.
In other news, I'm going to go long on Volkswagen. It's not like it's going into receivership any time soon.
Yes I Have No Bananas. [gofundme.com]
(Score: 5, Funny) by TheGratefulNet on Wednesday September 23 2015, @07:03PM
so.....
what you're saying is: most of us did nazi this coming??
"It is now safe to switch off your computer."
(Score: 2, Offtopic) by MichaelDavidCrawford on Wednesday September 23 2015, @07:14PM
I found that odd at first, as it was given to him when he received his commission in the United States Navy.
But when I turned it over to look at the other side of the blade I sat quietly for quite a long time, contemplating infinity:
On the flip side was the logo of the swordsmith, that being a Mogen David.
Yes I Have No Bananas. [gofundme.com]
(Score: 2) by vux984 on Wednesday September 23 2015, @08:32PM
In other news, I'm going to go long on Volkswagen. It's not like it's going into receivership any time soon.
Pretty much agree.
(Score: 3, Funny) by Covalent on Wednesday September 23 2015, @07:05PM
So VW sues the person who discovered their software trickeration, because they violated DMCA.
The person who discovered it sues VW under whistle blowing statutes.
The federal government sues them all for various things.
It's a circle of lawsuits....
It's a wheel of lawyers....
It's a web of lies....
It's a crowd of cheats....
And we'll find our way....
through bureaucratic red tape...
IT'S A CIIIIIIIRCLLLLLLLE
A circle of lawsuits
(Thanks to Elton John)
You can't rationally argue somebody out of a position they didn't rationally get into.
(Score: 0, Offtopic) by MichaelDavidCrawford on Wednesday September 23 2015, @07:12PM
"I've been doing ligitation for twenty years. The only ones who ever wins are the lawyers." -- Tyler Paetkau
I was prepared to drop my claim the instant he said that but the very next day is buddy sent me a totally baseless eighteen page legal manifesto. Upon carefully slogging through all eighteen pages of "Terms of Art" I realized the best that either of them could come up with was to point out that I had been "unprofessional".
I eventually dropped my claim anyway, due to a more-careful reading of the law: to denote Brian Lazara as "Ignorant Mother Fucker Number One" and Tricia Vavak as "Ignorant Mother Fucker Number Two", according the Supreme Court of the United States has "no expressive content" and therefore cannot be regarded as defamation.
Yes I Have No Bananas. [gofundme.com]
(Score: 3, Funny) by frojack on Wednesday September 23 2015, @08:07PM
I propose that SoylentNew create a Nexus with one post in it each day for MichaelDavidCrawford to post his off topic ramblings on those days when he is off his meds.
No, you are mistaken. I've always had this sig.
(Score: 1, Funny) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday September 23 2015, @08:48PM
Not a bad idea, actually. Call it "Things that make you go ... huh?"
(Score: 3, Funny) by MichaelDavidCrawford on Wednesday September 23 2015, @11:14PM
This morning at breakfast, a woman who has some hefty bags stacked on her walker was holding up some scraps of tattered paper with illegible writing on them.
One by one she held up each piece of paper, scowling and saying something unintelligible other than that she was obviously very angry.
Finally she held up a small paper, about the size of a credit card.
"I HAVE PROOF!" She shouted. "GET AWAY!"
Some guy damn near assaulted me because I sat in what he asserted was his chair. As the dining hall was crowded that chair was the only one to sit in, and he was gone from the room until I'd nearly done eating. That particular soup kitchen gives us all nametags, in hopes that we won't be so isolated.
My name tag read "MIKE".
His?
"OO7".
Yes I Have No Bananas. [gofundme.com]
(Score: 1, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday September 24 2015, @12:04AM
It's called Journals
(Score: 2) by frojack on Thursday September 24 2015, @12:13AM
It's called Journals
Tell that to MDC.
No, you are mistaken. I've always had this sig.
(Score: 2, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday September 23 2015, @08:48PM
> So VW sues the person who discovered their software trickeration, because they violated DMCA.
Er no.
It was discovered by people doing real-world tests - driving the car around with a NOx detector on the tailpipe.
(Score: 3, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday September 23 2015, @10:59PM
This paradigm (different results when testing|certifying the system vs what you get in "regular" use) should have everyone thinking about the closed-source software used in voting machines.
-- gewg_
(Score: 2) by penguinoid on Thursday September 24 2015, @05:25AM
What!? But voting machines are never told which day of the year elections will be. For all it knows, it could be on any day of the year that has been planned out ages ago.
RIP Slashdot. Killed by greedy bastards.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday September 24 2015, @03:00AM
"It's a wheel of lawyers...."
In the end only the lawyers win
(Score: 0, Offtopic) by MichaelDavidCrawford on Wednesday September 23 2015, @07:06PM
All of the tracks on my iPad are from CDs I actually own, that I purchased at a record store.
While I know everyone makes that claim at least for me personally it's the Gospel Truth.
Even so I've jailbroken all my iDevices so I can blackhole web and mobile analytics servers with my /etc/hosts file:
127.0.0.1 www.hosted-pixel.com # I Swear I'm Not Making This Up
Most of the SDKs are completely free-as-in-beer yet the pixels are just about always hosted by entire data centers. That's a lot of air conditioners and computer janitors - someone has to be paying for all that.
Yes I Have No Bananas. [gofundme.com]
(Score: 2) by Zz9zZ on Wednesday September 23 2015, @08:57PM
I'm going to assume this anecdote is supporting the idea that we should be able to crack the controller code for VWs to see what exactly it is doing? Or did you just post in the wrong thread?
~Tilting at windmills~
(Score: 2, Offtopic) by MichaelDavidCrawford on Wednesday September 23 2015, @09:05PM
I regard Android and iOS both as defective because they don't permit me to block analytics servers. While iOS recently enabled ad blocking, it doesn't block the apps that phone home when you tap the "OK" button.
All the other retail OSes I know about provide such functionality, really what I'm doing by jailbreaking my iPhone then editing the hosts file is fixing quite a serious security hole.
Consider that many cars are equipped with GPS. How do you really know when or whether it's reporting your position? Consider the automobiles owned by closeted gay Republican Presidential candidates.
Yes I Have No Bananas. [gofundme.com]
(Score: 2) by Grishnakh on Thursday September 24 2015, @01:49AM
Consider that many cars are equipped with GPS. How do you really know when or whether it's reporting your position?
GPS is receive-only. A car can't report your position anywhere unless it has some kind of radio transmitter, usually a cellular modem. Some cars do have these (those with "OnStar" built in), but most do not. But a lot of cars can pair (with Bluetooth) with your own cellphone, so that is possible, but of course, if you don't pair it with your phone you won't have that worry.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday September 24 2015, @03:06AM
"but of course, if you don't pair it with your phone you won't have that worry."
I had a JVC system that randomly paired with my phone on its own sometimes. I sensed it was sending information about the radio stations I would listen to through the Internet. I don't know, just a suspicion.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday September 24 2015, @02:57PM
Hmm that is odd. I have a JVC headunit and it is nearly impossible to get my device to pair with it sometimes, and occasionally in the middle of a song it will loose connection and I have to wait until I restart the car to get it to work.
(Score: 2) by MichaelDavidCrawford on Thursday September 24 2015, @11:17PM
That is, if you get my drift.
Yes I Have No Bananas. [gofundme.com]
(Score: 1) by nitehawk214 on Wednesday September 23 2015, @07:11PM
Well, not since they got caught, at least.
But, hey, a CEO is falling on his sword. So that should make someone happy?
"Don't you ever miss the days when you used to be nostalgic?" -Loiosh
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday September 23 2015, @07:29PM
So what is the General Motors CEO doing? We need somebody under the bus from them also. The dead people are waiting.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday September 23 2015, @08:41PM
GM/Ford/Toyota were guilty of gross negligence/indifference. VW is guilty of active malice.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday September 24 2015, @07:08AM
And the number of people killed by VW's naughty is?
(Score: 2) by isostatic on Thursday September 24 2015, @08:10AM
VW made $100b. Paid a $60b fine, so are still $40b up.
CEO gets a nice big payoff and has a holiday for a while, then comes back in a year or two when it's died down.
(Score: 1) by nitehawk214 on Sunday September 27 2015, @02:00AM
I would like to think the company would have been more profitable if they had not cheated.
Though it certainly netted the CEO a lot of money. There is very little incentive for CEOs to act in the best interest of companies. Once you have been a CEO of a major company, no matter how you get fired, no matter if you drive the company into the ground; you are pretty much golden to walk in to another company and start all over.
"Don't you ever miss the days when you used to be nostalgic?" -Loiosh
(Score: 2, Insightful) by MichaelDavidCrawford on Wednesday September 23 2015, @07:25PM
4xrThere is a simple type of bike rack with which some straps clip onto the trunk on the sides towards the read window, also under the bumper or some such. I don't clearly recall but I once owned such a rack and it worked just fine, it was quite inexpensive and easy to use.
Instead of a bike, mount a portable emissions tester. It just samples the gas from the tailpipe, how hard can that be?
Then take the car out for a drive.
By now we have already got the vast majority of gross polluters off the road. Even without the h4x0r3d engine firmware, to detect out-of-spec emissions really one must test the software automobiles in the same configuration as employed by users drivers.
Yes I Have No Bananas. [gofundme.com]
(Score: 1, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday September 23 2015, @08:11PM
VW has installed software that detects when the OBDII connector has been connected to emissions test equipment. All you have to do to test them is use a dynamometer and tailpipe sniffer, but don't connect to the OBDII port.
(Score: 2) by vux984 on Wednesday September 23 2015, @08:36PM
That's not what the EPA claimed. They claimed VW was detecting it was on a dynamometer based on speed, steering wheel position etc.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday September 23 2015, @09:42PM
They still plug into the OBDII port.
(Score: 3, Insightful) by Adamsjas on Thursday September 24 2015, @12:12AM
They still plug into the OBDII port.
Thats just for a read out of actual engine conditions.
Some cars are so reliable in their data read outs that you don't even have to put them on the dyno. You drive in, the emmissions guy hooks up to your OBDII port and reads your emissions over the last X hundred miles right out of the computer. Matches the tail pipe ever time.
It will be a long time before they trust VW to cough up those numbers.
(Score: 2) by Username on Thursday September 24 2015, @02:37AM
Just need put tap on the wires coming from the O2 sensors under the hood. No need for the bike rack.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday September 23 2015, @07:39PM
If I made 100 bucks over the course of many years and then got fined like $5 of that in one year....I'd not change a fucking thing.
I mean, VW customers give 0 fucks...and it is their fucking AIR being fucked with.
So, I mean...why all the theatrics?
(Score: 1) by SanityCheck on Wednesday September 23 2015, @07:49PM
I don't care how many fucks VW owners give, I breathe the fuckin air too, and I certainly give a fuck!
(Score: 2) by tynin on Wednesday September 23 2015, @08:09PM
Tossing in my anecdotal, I'm a VW Jetta diesel driving owner, and I care to. Who knew that MPG was too good to be true.
(Score: 2) by tynin on Wednesday September 23 2015, @08:05PM
Setting aside 60% of your previous years earnings is pretty gigantic as far as fines. Your example shows them paying a 5% earnings fine... which because of math, means you are dumb.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday September 23 2015, @08:30PM
How long has this been going on? Longer than 1 year. So comparing 60 to 5 is dumb.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday September 23 2015, @08:32PM
I've spotted the VW owner!
(Score: 1, Touché) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday September 23 2015, @09:32PM
> I mean, VW customers give 0 fucks...and it is their fucking AIR being fucked with.
Tell you what.
Instead of a recall to fix the emissions level, any VW customer who gives 0 fucks can instead just route their tailpipe into the backseat of their car and call it even.
(Score: 1, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday September 23 2015, @11:30PM
They certainly will when there is a mandated recall and the firmware|system has to be replaced with something that actually passes the test.
...especially when the performance/mileage suffers to get to that point.
...and to the folks who say they will now invest in VW:
How will it affect your decision when VW ends up buying back 11 million cars from owners who are unhappy with what they now have?
...and, as others have asked:
Is this thing in the USA simply the tip of the iceberg?
-- gewg_
(Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday September 23 2015, @07:42PM
erm ... if the engine A.I. ..errr ... "management" software were to be classified by law as "default open-source" this could not have happened.
people would not lose tons of money thru falling stocks.
cars manufacturers could "learn" from each other: software is just silicon and logic, no fancy valve geometry or exotic metal combos or such.
just wondering why this is in the news now. seems the finding are more then a year old? had to time the short selling or what?
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday September 23 2015, @11:15PM
Yep, this would be a pretty big disincentive to cheat on emissions tests. Mandated open source could even be extended to any device that had an influence on the environment or the public & public safety. A good friend suggest voting machine software as falling into the same category.
But it's got a snowball's chance in hell of getting by corporate lobbying. The car companies invest enormous amounts in their control algorithms and don't want them used by anyone else (like new competitors from Asia/China).
Maybe at some point in the future when the world economy is closer to "balanced" you can float this again? Right now the "have nots" are going to take whatever they can get as they attempt to be "haves".
(Score: 3, Interesting) by Adamsjas on Wednesday September 23 2015, @07:45PM
Volkswagen does not tolerate any kind of violation of laws whatsoever.
Seems they were perfectly happy to tolerate violations of the laws for about 10 years, apparently with wide internal knowledge that they were doing so, and continuously lying about it to the feds.
The Board of Management, in all probability fully aware of this hack for years, and were snickering up their sleeves about it, now suddenly gets religion? I don't think so.
Who knew what? And When Did they Know it?
(Score: 4, Interesting) by frojack on Wednesday September 23 2015, @07:58PM
I read an estimate that VW owners will see a minimum 10% loss of performance and perhaps a mileage reduction when the defeat code is removed from the computer software.
That will hurt resale value of these cars. Settlement is going to be complex and expensive.
But I wonder if this is just the tip of the iceberg? How many other German cars, and perhaps Japanese/Korean/American models as well have similar defeats built into their software?
I suspect the bunch of guys that found this are going to be getting a lot of contracts in the coming months.
I can see manufacturers hiring them just to get ahead of this issue and prove they don't have such defeats or that their competitors do.
No, you are mistaken. I've always had this sig.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday September 23 2015, @08:13PM
Apparently it's a diesel thing. There are very few passenger diesel models in the US, and they all use urea injection to reduce NOX emission. Except for VW, of course, who use a "defeat device" software instead.
(Score: 0, Flamebait) by fnj on Wednesday September 23 2015, @10:20PM
VW uses urea in all current models sold in the US, jackass.
(Score: 2, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday September 23 2015, @10:45PM
One of those butthurt VW driving turd, eh. Yeah, because VW just now told their dealers to stop selling 2015 models without urea injection:
http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1100125_vw-diesel-emissions-recall-what-you-need-to-know-in-10-questions [greencarreports.com]
(Score: 1) by Francis on Wednesday September 23 2015, @11:39PM
So, peeing in the gas tank is doing them a favor?
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday September 23 2015, @11:49PM
Yes, we all must do our part for mother earth, everything counts - piss on your neighbors' VW gas tank.
(Score: 2, Interesting) by jcm on Wednesday September 23 2015, @08:42PM
The real problem is not really the performance loss.
It's the fact that Europe let the car companies do as they wished.
Germany arrogantly posed itself as the european industry model.
And we now see that they were able to alter the laws to the point that they had to cheat in the US.
And Europe makes fun of the US for their pollution, while allowing car makers to do as they want.
I guess a lot of restrictive laws will pass, and the biggest loser in this is Germany, since it will be difficult to protect their image of probity.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday September 23 2015, @08:53PM
> And Europe makes fun of the US for their pollution
I wouldn't be so sure about that.
This past spring practically the entire country of England was under a smog alert [theguardian.com] because of diesel pollution.
That sort of massive smog layer hasn't happened in the US for decades.
(Score: 4, Interesting) by frojack on Wednesday September 23 2015, @09:40PM
And we now see that they were able to alter the laws to the point that they had to cheat in the US.
What the hell are you talking about?
How do you know the defeat doesn't also violate German laws?
The EU standards for NOX emissions [wikipedia.org] currently in place:
Euro 6 September 2014 0.080 (Grams NOX/KM) Diesel Engines
The US Standard for NOX emissions [dieselnet.com] (LEV 2-currently in force) (all engines)
LEV- 0.05 (Grams NOX/M)
ULEV 0.05 (Grams NOX/M)
You can see the US standards are more stringent (.05 vs .08) and the US standard is in Grams per Miles not KM (meaning US standards are tighter yet).
However, you can also see that during normal driving situations, the VW emission controls are turned off, allowing the cars to spew as much as 40 times as much pollution as allowed, and this would ALSO VIOLATE EU STANDARDS by a wide margin.
So far we've only heard about US potential penalties. That doesn't mean there won't be other countries jumping on the bandwagon.
And Europe makes fun of the US for their pollution, while allowing car makers to do as they want.
This too makes no sense, because across the board, US standards are WAY MORE STRINGENT than EU standards (or world wide standards), in EVERY category of air pollution regulations. So you just don't hear Europeans making fun of the US.
No, you are mistaken. I've always had this sig.
(Score: 3, Informative) by takyon on Wednesday September 23 2015, @10:02PM
South Korea to probe VW, Audi diesel car emissions [reuters.com]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volkswagen_emissions_violations#Government_actions [wikipedia.org]
[SIG] 10/28/2017: Soylent Upgrade v14 [soylentnews.org]
(Score: 1, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday September 23 2015, @11:12PM
FYI the Euro 6 standard is grams per kilometer, the US standard is grams per mile.
Convert the Euro standard to miles and you get 0.13 grams/mile
Doesn't really change your point, but the euro 6 standard just started implementation this month, the prior standard (euro 5) was closer to 0.28g/mi.
(Score: 2) by frojack on Thursday September 24 2015, @12:04AM
FYI the Euro 6 standard is grams per kilometer, the US standard is grams per mile.
Convert the Euro standard to miles and you get 0.13 grams/mile
Yes, I think I alluded to that fact, thanks for doing the math for me.
By the way, the US standard gets even tighter from here on out.
The LEV III emission standards—adopted in January 2012 and amended in December 2012 [2946]—are phased-in over the 2015-2025 model years. Manufacturers can certify vehicles to the LEV III standards before model year 2015. Beginning with model year 2020, all vehicles must be certified to LEV III standards.
The LEV III standards modify the LEV II standards in several ways: (1) combine NMOG and NOx standards into one NMOG+NOx standard, (2) introduce a more stringent combined NMOG+NOx fleet average requirement for 2015-2025 model years, (3) add several emission standard bins, and (4) increase the durability requirements for emission control systems.
Chart: https://www.dieselnet.com/standards/us/img/lev_iii_fleet_avg.png [dieselnet.com]
Realistically, most automakers realize the quickest way to meet these standards is is by producing a significant amount of electric vehicles so that the fleet average falls under the guidelines.
No, you are mistaken. I've always had this sig.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday September 24 2015, @06:34PM
Tests showed that some diesel models "from every major motor manufacturer" exceed the new EU standard.
http://www.theguardian.com/environment/2015/sep/14/nine-out-of-10-new-diesel-cars-in-breach-of-eu-pollution-rules-report-finds [theguardian.com]
original report:
http://www.transportenvironment.org/press/just-one-10-new-diesel-cars-clean-legal-limit-report-finds [transportenvironment.org]
(Score: 2) by MostCynical on Wednesday September 23 2015, @09:38PM
when a company uses software to game the tests for "official" smog results, it is called.. "cheating", but only when you get caught.
If the testing is so easy to game, surely ther is something wrong with the tests.
Note: the European testing is easier to "pass". http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-09-22/how-volkswagen-fooled-us-regulators/6793652 [abc.net.au]
If I register a company in, say, Ireland, to avoid paying tax in the US, then shareholders are happy.
If I write software to trick EPA testing, to get better pollution scores on cars to sell more, then shareholders are happy..
I think shareholders may be the problem..
"I guess once you start doubting, there's no end to it." -Batou, Ghost in the Shell: Stand Alone Complex
(Score: 2) by gnuman on Wednesday September 23 2015, @10:47PM
If I write software to trick EPA testing, to get better pollution scores on cars to sell more, then shareholders are happy..
I think shareholders may be the problem..
If you get caught and cause 50+% drop of shareholder value, shareholders are livid.
The shareholders are not the problem. Cheaters and law breakers are the problem.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday September 23 2015, @11:33PM
Hmmm. Maybe some will reconsider that economic system.
-- gewg_
(Score: 2) by Common Joe on Thursday September 24 2015, @04:46AM
What's sad is that I'm willing to place money that by the time all is said and done, they will not have broken any laws... or at least admitted wrong doing.
That whole scene from Office Space comes to mind: "We fixed the glitch."
(Score: 2) by Grishnakh on Thursday September 24 2015, @01:59AM
If the testing is so easy to game, surely ther is something wrong with the tests.
Not really. The goal was to isolate variables and have an honest test of the engine's emissions. That has to be done with a machine capturing the engine's exhaust, and since that machine isn't small, this means having a dedicated facility and a dynomometer to run the car on. This is how emissions-testing stations have worked for many years. Capturing and reading emissions on a moving vehicle isn't as easy, nor as accurate, and accuracy is probably pretty important these days since engines are so clean compared to engines of decades ago.
(Score: 1) by pipedwho on Thursday September 24 2015, @07:26AM
They don't need to drive around, they just need to measure all the pertinent variables at the same time. So if the ECU starts pulling power, increasing fuel usage, or overheating the exhaust gas, then the total measurement falls into question.
If all the tests are run separately while ignoring all other variables, then the ECU could exceed the specification on one parameter to allow another to meet the pass threshold. Each test could be gamed in such a way so for example the N2O test could be run with substandard power output or by a big reduction in MPG. Likely the MPG test could be gamed by boosting exhaust temperature to detrimental levels while increasing the output of various pollutants.
But, if you measure everything at the same time, then the car has no option but to remain 'honest'.
This type of thing could easily happen if the test is done while the car is legitimately in a mode where it runs differently that normal (ie. during warmup, or when running in hot ambient weather, or when it is overheating, etc). So a proper test would detect this happening and could be run with all variables properly reported.
For example, if a 30MPG car (specified at a particular load/speed) suddenly runs with 20MPG during the test while passing other tests, then there is a problem.
(Score: 2) by Entropy on Thursday September 24 2015, @12:45AM
My engine performs better..The fact that it doesn't meet some nonsense NOx emissions restrictions is no big deal to me. All this I'm reading seems to imply I'm somehow a victim, somehow people won't want to buy this car, or somehow this car is worse...When in reality it's better. Emissions crap doesn't make a car better--in fact it does the exact opposite:
1. Less MPG
2. Less reliable
3. Less power
In short..Everything is worse. Why most of the comments somehow make the user of this vehicle out to be a 'victim' is beyond me.
(Score: 1, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday September 24 2015, @01:00AM
Depending on where you live, you may have problem registering/selling your car because now it is illegal.
(Score: 4, Informative) by gnuman on Thursday September 24 2015, @02:08AM
nonsense NOx emissions restrictions is no big deal to me.
http://phys.org/news/2015-09-nox-gases-diesel-car-fumes.html [phys.org]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NOx#Environmental_effects [wikipedia.org]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nitrogen_dioxide#Safety_and_pollution_considerations [wikipedia.org]
"No big deal" causes hundreds of thousands of deaths each year. It's one of the leading causes of early cardiovascular inflammation, leading to obstruction and death. And no, ignorance does not save you from it.
(Score: 2) by Common Joe on Thursday September 24 2015, @04:48AM
My asthma immediately flares up when I get a face full of exhaust. I have more trouble breathing on days it doesn't rain. It's a big deal to me.
(Score: 2) by Entropy on Thursday September 24 2015, @10:58AM
Does your asthma flare up in response to NOx, or gas engine emissions? Was it an affected VW? NOx tends to be made more of a big deal out of than it really is...If you have issue with "exhaust" then likely it has nothing to do with NOx.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday September 24 2015, @05:32AM
Yay, someone rediscovered the tragedy of the commons.
(Score: 2) by shortscreen on Thursday September 24 2015, @07:57AM
Emissions regulations are a moving goal post, with the usual loopholes and seemingly arbitrary rules thrown in. I imagine that even with the better performing, emissions-unfriendly tune, these cars are likely still cleaner than older vehicles or huge gas-guzzlers. Plus there is the trade off with efficiency and thus CO2 emissions.
It would be nice to see some hard data on how the cheat affects test results and how they compare with other cars. There is no tailpipe test required where I live so I have no first hand experience with the process. I've done a quick web search on the subject in the past. It was difficult to find numbers that were directly comparable because different countries/states run different tests, have different standards, and the measurements can be either mass/distance or given as a percent (of what IDK)