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Today, Mi is 33 and founder of a startup that aims to give Chinese kids the kind of education American children receive in top U.S. schools. Called VIPKid, the company matches Chinese students aged five to 12 with predominantly North American instructors to study English, math, science and other subjects. Classes take place online, typically for two or three 25-minute sessions each week.
Mi is capitalizing on an alluring arbitrage opportunity. In China, there are hundreds of millions of kids whose parents are willing to pay up if they can get high-quality education. In the U.S. and Canada, teachers are often underpaid—and many have quit the profession because they couldn't make a decent living. Growth has been explosive. The three-year-old company started this year with 200 teachers and has grown to 5,000, now working with 50,000 children. Next year, Mi anticipates she'll expand to 25,000 teachers and 200,000 children.
(Score: 2, Interesting) by Nerdfest on Thursday December 22 2016, @11:08AM
The *average* high school teacher's salary in Ontario (Canada) is $87000. Hardly underpaid. Considering the number of people that want to teach, I'd say quite overpaid.
(Score: 1) by Francis on Thursday December 22 2016, @11:35AM
What do other people with similar amounts of education get paid in Canada. Also, are they required to fund their own continuing education to maintain their credentials and how much work are they expected to do?
In the US, teachers get paid far less than other occupations with similar requirements for education. They also have to spend large amounts of time and money on classes to maintain their credentials and wind up working on their own time to do things like grading and preparing.
(Score: 0, Flamebait) by khallow on Thursday December 22 2016, @11:53AM
What do other people with similar amounts of education get paid in Canada. Also, are they required to fund their own continuing education to maintain their credentials and how much work are they expected to do?
Sounds like we have a case of too much credentials contrary to your assertion in your other post [soylentnews.org].
Teachers require special certifications because teaching requires a lot more work than just mastery of the content area.
I'll note here that I don't respect the certifications and credentials that are currently enforced or issued for teachers because I think it's a deliberate intent to restrict the supply of teachers by those teacher unions.
I mean seriously, I deal with the results of untrained teachers on a more or less daily basis. Just because you know how to solve a math problem, does not qualify you to teach somebody else to do it. Most days I wind up cleaning up after a teacher that doesn't understand how to teach and I've made quite a bit of money over the years from that.
There are ways to train teachers that don't require pointless certifications and credentials that don't reflect actual ability of the teacher. Ultimately, the goal here is hiring and keeping good teachers. Credentials are evidently getting in the way of that according your above post.
(Score: 1) by Francis on Thursday December 22 2016, @06:28PM
The certifications aren't pointless, one way or another you need a way of telling who has and who hasn't had at least some exposure to the methods used in the trade. We can quibble all day about which standards make sense and which ones don't as well as how to fix it, but at the end of the day, it's not realistic to have teachers teaching long enough to know if they're any good. It's just too costly and time consuming.
As far as my previous comment goes, there's basically no requirement if you're teaching at a college, those requirements I referenced are for the K-12 public schools. Private schools and colleges don't necessarily require that the teacher be qualified to teach. But, the whole idea of going back and taking classes regularly is that it helps the instructor keep current as well as remind them what it's like to teach. The last thing you want is to have a teacher who hasn't taken any classes in decades and can't even remember what it takes to pass a test teaching the class.
As for credentials getting in the way, no they don't. What gets in the way is a lack of proper pay, lack of proper working conditions and having the teachers be responsible for paying their college and credential fees while still expecting them to make poverty wages and put up with the long hours.
(Score: 1) by khallow on Friday December 23 2016, @12:32AM
one way or another you need a way of telling who has and who hasn't had at least some exposure to the methods used in the trade.
But of course. You can evaluate them in the classroom. You can speak to their references. That's better than credentials.
(Score: 2, Insightful) by Francis on Friday December 23 2016, @04:43AM
No, just no.
So, you're suggesting that every time a school needs to hire a new teacher, that they waste class time for a dozen or more students for each applicant rather than just accept the practicum done once by an accredited trainer? How is that better than the current set up where the prospective teachers get feedback and experience in an environment set up to handle it?
Also, references are something that you get in addition to the credentials typically anyways. They're not a replacement for a properly monitored practicum in any reasonable way. Whenever you've got somebody watching the classroom the students behave differently even if the teacher doesn't. I remember being unintentionally screwed over by students on multiple occasions because they were trying to make me look good, but them looking like good Chinese language students wasn't what I was being evaluated on. I was being evaluated in part on the energy in the room which was mysteriously absent whenever the head teacher was evaluating me.
(Score: 1) by khallow on Friday December 23 2016, @05:04AM
So, you're suggesting that every time a school needs to hire a new teacher, that they waste class time for a dozen or more students for each applicant rather than just accept the practicum done once by an accredited trainer?
That would be better, particularly since they're going to waste the time of the students on an unknown anyway. Might as well be one that you've actually seen at work.
I remember being unintentionally screwed over by students on multiple occasions because they were trying to make me look good, but them looking like good Chinese language students wasn't what I was being evaluated on.
Which would be no different a problem if you were credentialed or not.
(Score: 1) by Francis on Friday December 23 2016, @05:23AM
First off, where do you get students to sit through those lessons from? Students are students, they're supposed to be studying. If you're interviewing for a job at a college, you might get away with having them give a lecture, but for the K-12 system there's just no time to do that. Students arrive at a set time and leave at a set time, when are you going to have the teachers doing their lessons? Students have enough to do with their own studies without having to sit through lessons that aren't related to their material and they aren't being graded on.
As for the second point, coming in with a credential means that you've proven a base level of competency. There's a lot less pressure involved and generally schools don't have your entire career at that school resting on the result of a single class session with students you don't know.
The current system is only broken in so far as the teachers are being poorly compensated, presented with unreasonable conditions and a more or less complete lack of support. How are you going to figure out if a teacher can handle that with just a test lesson? At least with credentials, the teacher has a set of tools available for addressing things like that.
Removing the regulations isn't going to help. If you want to avoid the regulation, just take a look at private schools. Some of them are great and cost a huge amount of money to attend and others are significantly worse than public schools because they're not bound by the same regulations about hiring trained teachers.
The whole idea that this is somehow a substitute is at best half-baked.
(Score: 1) by khallow on Friday December 23 2016, @05:54AM
If you're interviewing for a job at a college, you might get away with having them give a lecture, but for the K-12 system there's just no time to do that.
You do realize that there's more time for that in the K-12 system than in college - for all parties concerned, don't you? Teachers work less hours and students are going no more than half the speed of a college environment. What's different is that college professors tend to take hiring very seriously because having a good, compatible colleague can boost their own career, even if only indirectly via boosting the reputation of the department.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday December 22 2016, @06:46PM
I'll note here that I don't respect the certifications and credentials that are currently enforced or issued for teachers because I think it's a deliberate intent to restrict the supply of teachers by those teacher unions.
I feel the same way about MCSEs, and CPAs, and MRAs and MREs! All of them are, as George Bernard Shaw put it, "conspiracies against the laity"!!! And I also do not respect any credentials to be a Soylentil, or a khallow, because the intent is just to mindless catapult the propaganda.
(Score: 1) by khallow on Friday December 23 2016, @12:35AM
And I also do not respect any credentials to be a Soylentil, or a khallow, because the intent is just to mindless catapult the propaganda.
How did you even find this site without the proper credentials!? The butler was most emphatically told not to let these people in!
(Score: 2) by Nerdfest on Thursday December 22 2016, @11:55AM
They do not have to do classes to keep up their credentials (although many will work towards a masters to get a salary increase). They get summers off of course, and teach from generally 9:00-15:30, leaving lots of time for grading, etc, in a normal work day. They typically also have 'free' time during the day because of free time slots, etc. Many will do after-school activities though, which pushes marking to their own time. Here, they also have a fantastic pension plan. I have lots of relatives that are teachers. The only real down-side is being limited in when you can take vacation, although there is a long Christmas break, and spring break in addition to the summer. If you actually like teaching, it's a pretty sweet deal.
My complaint is not so much the money on its own, it's the money combined with the number of people that want to teach. The supply and demand ratio should push down the salaries, allowing more teachers, smaller class-sizes, and better employment.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday December 22 2016, @02:06PM
The supply and demand ratio should push down the salaries
If China is willing to pay more, then the market value of those teachers is higher than their current salary (which would mean they're currently underpaid).
(Score: 3, Insightful) by Nerdfest on Thursday December 22 2016, @02:39PM
I will put money on China not out-paying Ontario teachers.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday December 22 2016, @12:36PM
Public school teachers have the summer off, are coddled by pensions (which disappeared in the private sector 40 years ago) and protected from incompetence by tenure.
Oh, without tenure teachers would be at the mercy of arbitrary management? Welcome to real world.
Nobody who hasn't been a teacher can comment on the teaching profession? Well, that's a nice way to put yourself above criticism, isn't it. Maybe politicians should claim the same deal.
(Score: 1) by khallow on Thursday December 22 2016, @01:26PM
Maybe politicians should claim the same deal.
You can't judge me until you've accepted a hundred thousand dollar bribe from the fine folk at Soulless Corp? Sounds intriguing. "Note to self..."
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday December 22 2016, @02:32PM
Hm, all the former Nortel employees must have missed the memo.
(Score: 5, Informative) by datapharmer on Thursday December 22 2016, @12:29PM
Where in the world are you getting that number? According to salary.com "The median annual Teacher High School salary in Ontario, CA is $59,745, as of November 30, 2016, with a range usually between $47,338-$70,178"
Not that it is terrible, but that's 27k away from reality, and in the U.S. it can vary widely. In some inner city schools (where it can by physically dangerous to teach) you can make $85k+ to risk your life in gang territory, or you can take a much safer job teaching online in Pennsylvania for under 13k a year.
If you can work 20 hours a week at $20 an hour (the rate cited in the story) you would make over 20k. Why wouldn't you work half the hours for almost twice the pay as you could in Pennsylvania for the same job?
(Score: 3, Informative) by aclarke on Thursday December 22 2016, @01:54PM
I don't know where Nerdfest got his number, but it's possible he's quoting in CAD and you're quoting USD. C$87,000 is about US$65,000. That's still above your number, but it's easy to see how two different surveys could produce numbers with a US$5000 difference in average salary.
(Score: 3, Informative) by Nerdfest on Thursday December 22 2016, @01:55PM
The number's came from the National Post [nationalpost.com], and are just for Toronto, so my mistake. Toronto is probably the most expensive place to live in Ontario as well.
13K a year is certainly *way* too low.
(Score: 3, Insightful) by SunTzuWarmaster on Thursday December 22 2016, @07:04PM
I've always wanted to run the numbers.
I live in Orlando.
Median household income here is $41K (source: http://www.bestplaces.net/economy/city/florida/orlando). [bestplaces.net] This is right around "assistant manager of Walmart" (43K), "GM of the Olive Garden" (39K), and what I consider to be a "normal job" - not enough to really buy a house ($49K, source:http://money.cnn.com/infographic/real_estate/what-you-need-to-earn-to-afford-a-home/) (unless two people work).
Median (primary school) teacher salary here is $53K (source:http://www1.salary.com/FL/Orlando/Teacher-Elementary-School-salary.html).
Teachers here obey this schedule (https://www.ocps.net/pages/schoolcalendar.aspx), which indicates 2 weeks for Christmas break, 1 week for Spring break, 8 weeks for summer break, and ~4 holidays on top of that. In comparison, a federal Post Office employee (or any other federally employed person, including STEM folks) with 3-15 years tenure gets 10 federal holidays and ~3.9 weeks of vacation. Let's call it 6 weeks.
Let's assume that they both work 8 hour days, the teacher is getting about 12 weeks of vacation yearly to the has-a-degree-entry-level-GS-7, or assistant-manager-of-post-office-GS-7. Teacher is making 4 weeks of additional vacation, which is valued at 1/12*53000=$4500. All things being roughly equal (assuming federal pension/401K are roughly equal to county pension/401K), the 'normal job' comes out around $41K+benes, and the teacher comes out around 57.5K+benes. 'Normal job' probably requires a business degree or technical training, and teacher job requires a 4-year degree. This indicates that teachers, as a category, are out-earning the median income by $16.5K in "total package". Draw your own conclusions for overpaid/underpaid; these numbers indicate that a family can afford to live in a house with a teacher as a sole breadwinner (just barely), but cannot afford to do so with most jobs.
Final note - in my state (FL) anyone with a STEM degree can choose to be a teacher and has a 2-3 year grace period in which to obtain a teaching certificate (which is trivial). Few do, for a variety of reasons, some of which are likely economic. There is a proposed bill to set starting teacher salary at $54K ($50K+vacation premium), while starting salary for a "Bachelor of Science" degree ($71K), or "Bachelor of Engineering" ($81K) is somewhat larger (source:http://www.payscale.com/research/US/Location=Orlando-FL/Salary/by_Degree#by_Years_Experience). There is, of course, ongoing state-wide debate on whether people with a degree in Biology should teach high school physics (90+% of teachers aren't certified in the subject they teach in this state).
(Score: 2) by Osamabobama on Friday December 23 2016, @12:21AM
Just to throw some more confusion at the matter, it should be mentioned that "Ontario, CA" is often used to represent a city in San Bernardino county, California.
Appended to the end of comments you post. Max: 120 chars.
(Score: 4, Interesting) by aclarke on Thursday December 22 2016, @01:45PM
Canadian teachers among top paid worldwide, study finds [thestar.com]
OECD finds us fourth highest of developed nations, according to new report on the state of education around the world.
Teacher pay: Canada near the top of the OECD class [theglobeandmail.com]
Where The World's Best-Paid Teachers Can Be Found [huffingtonpost.ca]
Canada is #3, USA is #6 in this particular metric.
Teachers in Ontario at least have a very strong union. At a time when fewer people get full benefits with pension, the contrast is becoming more stark and obvious. I think teaches are worth what we pay them but overall their compensation packages with pension are very good here.
(Score: 2) by aclarke on Thursday December 22 2016, @01:57PM
I see the reference to underpaid Canadian teachers comes from the Bloomberg article, not from Phoenix666's posterior.
(Score: 3, Informative) by Phoenix666 on Thursday December 22 2016, @02:51PM
That's straight from the article. No lumping on my part.
Washington DC delenda est.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday December 22 2016, @05:45PM
Not everybody can teach well. Just because lots of people want to teach, that does not mean they would do a good job at it. Given the impact giving a good education to a child can have in the economy $87,000 a year per teacher is a pittance. It is in effect investing in the future of the country.
You need good wages to retain good teachers, sure some will take low wages for the love of teaching, but you can't expect all the good ones to. So if those wages result in a good education for the children, then those teachers are certainly not overpaid.
(Score: 2) by Nerdfest on Thursday December 22 2016, @08:50PM
You're assuming that the teachers in place are good, which is not always the case, and the unions generally involved ensure that that does not change easily or quickly. Also, studies generally show that money is not as big a factor as you would think.