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It's important to know what power actually is if you want to take the power back, fight the power, feel the power of love, or just to know when you've got the power and if it's OVER 9000. It's recently come to my attention that some folks don't, so I thought about it a bit and I'll lay the most basic fundamentals out for you all.
Power in the human context is the ability to exert your will on a situation. Nothing more, nothing less.
Direct, personal power (your ability to do something relevant and influential) is the only real power. The primary varieties of this are the ability to create and to destroy. Most other varieties are eventually rooted back in one of these if you follow them back far enough, though they may be notable enough to warrant their own name. Yes, complex interplays of multiple power sources are quite common but we're talking fundamentals today.
The most important of these is probably proxied power. You know, like governments wield. Be it power granted them by their citizens or by force of arms, they only hold this power by the consent of those from which it ultimately originates.
Now, that's not to say there aren't force multipliers, like say having a gun. They absolutely exist but they're not power in and of themselves; they require human agency to mean anything.
I'm also not discounting that non-human or even non-living things can exert influence in the world - the sun does this every day - that's just not what we're discussing here.
One last bit before I save this entry. Money is not power. It can rent power. It can buy power. But it is not itself anything but paper, ones and zeroes, or whatever. Why do I say this? Because the person with the direct power, proxied power, or some sort of force multiplier must first be willing to rent or sell it. Granted, this is so often the case that it's an extremely useful thing to have but don't make the mistake confusing what something can be exchanged for and the thing to be exchanged.
There, hope that's cleared up for you now if you hadn't thought it through yourselves yet. Hopefully it'll make getting to the heart of the matter a little easier in discussions down the road.
(Score: 4, Funny) by DeathMonkey on Monday March 11 2019, @05:13PM (4 children)
P = W / t
The End.
(Score: 3, Touché) by The Mighty Buzzard on Monday March 11 2019, @05:33PM (3 children)
It's been far more often my experience that:
YMMV of course.
My rights don't end where your fear begins.
(Score: 1, Funny) by Anonymous Coward on Monday March 11 2019, @05:50PM
That is a simplified equation, and with QM devices becoming more widespread you would do well to remember that.
(Score: 4, Funny) by realDonaldTrump on Monday March 11 2019, @10:07PM
We love P.I.V., don't we? I've had that experience very often. Many times. And I have 4 smart, beautiful children (also Tiffany) to prove it!!
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday March 12 2019, @08:00AM
I think he got the P and the W reversed. It would seem that power over time gives you work.
(Score: 3, Insightful) by Azuma Hazuki on Monday March 11 2019, @06:54PM (15 children)
Nope.
This is the distinction between hiring a hitman and doing the murder yourself. Morally, there is none: the blood is still on your head. This is useless pedantry, directly akin to saying that someone who hires a hitman isn't a murderer, just renting one for a bit. At worst, money falls under the power-by-proxy rubric. This is a weak attempt to shield your libertarian worldview from criticism, and it doesn't work on anyone with half a brain and half a soul.
I am "that girl" your mother warned you about...
(Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Monday March 11 2019, @07:03PM (7 children)
There is no value in half a soul. Have you ever heard of the devil bartering for half of a soul?
Abortion is the number one killed of children in the United States.
(Score: 1, Funny) by Anonymous Coward on Monday March 11 2019, @07:18PM
Should I tell him? Or do you think it would destroy the remaining half?
(Score: 2, Funny) by RandomFactor on Monday March 11 2019, @09:26PM
Maybe if he only had half a fiddle?
В «Правде» нет известий, в «Известиях» нет правды
(Score: 1, Flamebait) by Azuma Hazuki on Tuesday March 12 2019, @05:43AM (4 children)
He seems to have taken what he can get in your case, ugly...
I am "that girl" your mother warned you about...
(Score: 3, Touché) by Runaway1956 on Tuesday March 12 2019, @01:48PM (3 children)
Oh, the pain! The misery! The humiliation! You usually apply some art to your insults, and here you are using simple kindergarden insults. Ugly? You couldn't even go with "You're ugly, and your mother dresses you funny"? God! Are you having hormone issues? Oh - shit yes. Every spring, you go hormonal. Fuck, GET OVER IT 'ZUMI!! Don't start inquiring about my sex life again this year! Get off your dumb ass, and put some effort (however misguided) into your insults!
Abortion is the number one killed of children in the United States.
(Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Tuesday March 12 2019, @01:57PM (1 child)
Of fingerpainting or bathroom stall quality, yes.
My rights don't end where your fear begins.
(Score: 3, Interesting) by Azuma Hazuki on Tuesday March 12 2019, @06:04PM
True story: once I took a sharpie and wrote "Don't beam me up, Scotty, I'm taking a shi" and just made the I a loooooong vertical line straight up all the way to the top of the stall. You would be amazed how much of that kind of graffiti shows up in womens' stalls too.
I am "that girl" your mother warned you about...
(Score: 2) by Azuma Hazuki on Tuesday March 12 2019, @05:58PM
If it's so weaksauce why do you feel compelled to reply so strongly? Don't worry, I know the real ugly is deep down inside you, not on the outside. That was my point; poor Satan got the equivalent of a beat up '84 lime-green Yugo when he bargained for your essence. Beats the hell (heh) out of me why he did it anyway, but I hope you're happy with what you got.
I am "that girl" your mother warned you about...
(Score: 2) by Arik on Monday March 11 2019, @10:03PM (1 child)
I agree with this line, but I don't agree this contradicts the bit you posted.
There's no moral difference between using power yourself, or hiring someone else to do it - but I don't see anything in what you quoted indicating he's talking about a moral distinction.
They're still different things, very different things. The person who has money must find someone willing to work for it if he wants power. The person with the gun can simply take the money.
If laughter is the best medicine, who are the best doctors?
(Score: 2, Informative) by Azuma Hazuki on Tuesday March 12 2019, @05:51AM
Oh, don't be silly! The person with the gun is simply entering into a voluntary, mutually agreed-upon transaction with the victim: for the cost of the victim's money, he gives the victim his life. Why do you hate freedom? Why do you hate the free market? Are you some kinda COMMUNIST?!111one
I am "that girl" your mother warned you about...
(Score: 1, Troll) by The Mighty Buzzard on Tuesday March 12 2019, @03:34AM (4 children)
I'm not talking morality here. I'm talking what is and what isn't true. What is practically true is not literally true. Pi can practically be assumed to be 3.14159, give or take a few decimal places, for nearly all purposes it's used for but pi is not 3.14159.
And, no, money does not fall under power by proxy. Money can be exchanged for power but that is entirely at the discretion of the one with the power you wish to purchase/rent. If they say fuck off, it's just useless paper. It's a minor distinction but a very crucial one if you wish to understand the true dynamics of power.
My rights don't end where your fear begins.
(Score: 2) by Azuma Hazuki on Tuesday March 12 2019, @05:48AM (2 children)
Money is a form of influence. "[A]t the discretion of the one with the power you wish to purchase/rent" says it all: by offering that person money, you are exerting influence and therefore power. You are committing a sort of hybrid fallacy here, part fallacy of composition and part falling for the Tortoise Paradox...you know, the old Greek one where the philosopher says that even though a tortoise moves at 1/10th the speed of a man, a man in pursuit will never catch it because it's always ahead? Same thing here, only in this case, there's only one step between "hire hitman" and "kill dude yourself."
At this point you are desperately flailing to defend your flawed libertarian worldview. It's not working. You're throwing up category errors in an attempt to confuse the issue, and getting nowhere. What the medium of exchange is is utterly irrelevant; THAT the exchange takes place is a power play.
I am "that girl" your mother warned you about...
(Score: 1, Troll) by The Mighty Buzzard on Tuesday March 12 2019, @06:08AM (1 child)
Only if someone wants to trade power for it. That's the bit you insist on refusing to understand. No matter how rich anyone got under Stalin, he held all the power. Likewise if some random guy on the street wants to kick the shit out of you just because it's fun, it makes no difference if you have enough money to hire a bodyguard or buy a gun. This is not at all a common thing but it is the absolute truth; money means nothing unless someone will give you what you want for it and that is never a guarantee.
No, I am telling you fundamental truths that have nothing to do with any philosophy. They are first principles and not subject to anyone's worldview. They are equally true for fascists, anarchists, royalists, and every other flavor of belief you care to name.
My rights don't end where your fear begins.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday March 12 2019, @05:00PM
Such a simple mind you have, I see why you are a Libertarian and screech "taxation is theft" so much. I'll give you one last thought experiment, see if we can pry open that dusty brain. Information. No physical power involved at all, but information can be used to blackmail, control, manipulate, build. Even G.I Joe figured that one out.
(Score: 2) by acid andy on Tuesday March 12 2019, @02:43PM
Hmm, if we continue along this line of reasoning, then anything less than the use of actual physical power is just as useless as money, if the person you are trying to influence wants to say "fuck off". You can try to persuade them, use propaganda / marketing to try to change their opinions, offer them gifts or confiscate their possessions, but they can still decide to ignore you. In that case, only direct physical force would have an effect. If the physical force moves the person over some distance over a period of time, there's the physical power right there.
Master of the science of the art of the science of art.
(Score: 1) by fustakrakich on Monday March 11 2019, @09:50PM (15 children)
The primary variety of 'this area' is the ability to survive and reproduce and thrive. Even "create and destroy" are completely relative. The other area is maintenance, the clock is merciless and incorruptible.
your ability to do something relevant and influential
To whom? I mean, outside the family?
Money is not power.
Ummm, duh? There's that streetcar named... DESIRE?!
La politica e i criminali sono la stessa cosa..
(Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Tuesday March 12 2019, @03:36AM (14 children)
You're going higher level abstract concepts, I'm just laying out the fundamentals.
My rights don't end where your fear begins.
(Score: 1) by fustakrakich on Tuesday March 12 2019, @05:01AM (13 children)
On the contrary. You're still dealing with the superficial human level. If you want to study power and the desire for it, you have to study the primal motivations.
La politica e i criminali sono la stessa cosa..
(Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Tuesday March 12 2019, @05:38AM (12 children)
Well, yes, I was. That's the context I wished to discuss the concept of power in because it means different things in different contexts. I had no desire to discuss the desire for it or motivations at all, only what it is and what it is not. Much like discussing the morality of chemistry's uses is ludicrous before you've gone over the basics, discussing the uses of power before you understand what it is makes no sense whatsoever.
My rights don't end where your fear begins.
(Score: 2, Touché) by fustakrakich on Tuesday March 12 2019, @05:55AM (11 children)
Power in your context is all about desire and primal motivation. I mean, since you brought up the subject of money...
La politica e i criminali sono la stessa cosa..
(Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Tuesday March 12 2019, @12:46PM (10 children)
No, it's not. I'm discussing basic, functional definition and you're trying to steer the conversation to higher level concepts like motivation. One need not discuss the intricacies of commerce or world hunger to discuss what wheat is.
My rights don't end where your fear begins.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday March 12 2019, @05:05PM
Eeesh, you going for some sort of trollphy?
(Score: 1) by fustakrakich on Tuesday March 12 2019, @08:43PM (8 children)
What is power, without motivation?
La politica e i criminali sono la stessa cosa..
(Score: 2) by Arik on Tuesday March 12 2019, @11:57PM (7 children)
Idle, I would guess?
Doesn't matter, it's still power.
If laughter is the best medicine, who are the best doctors?
(Score: 1) by fustakrakich on Wednesday March 13 2019, @02:14AM (6 children)
Power in the human context is the ability to exert your will on a situation.
Without motivation there is no exertion, or ability.
La politica e i criminali sono la stessa cosa..
(Score: 2) by Arik on Wednesday March 13 2019, @09:31AM (5 children)
Without motivation there may be no exertion, but ability is unaffected.
A lazy, well fed elephant may lack motivation, but she's still powerful.
If laughter is the best medicine, who are the best doctors?
(Score: 1) by fustakrakich on Wednesday March 13 2019, @05:56PM
Then "power" is determined by mass and inertia alone? Not according to any of the standard formulas we use...
La politica e i criminali sono la stessa cosa..
(Score: 1) by fustakrakich on Wednesday March 13 2019, @06:00PM (3 children)
Sorry, meant mass and velocity alone
La politica e i criminali sono la stessa cosa..
(Score: 2) by Arik on Wednesday March 13 2019, @10:20PM (2 children)
If laughter is the best medicine, who are the best doctors?
(Score: 1) by fustakrakich on Wednesday March 13 2019, @10:43PM (1 child)
Yes, that came to me after I posted. So, mass is it? Not to me, for power, you still need force and space and time.
La politica e i criminali sono la stessa cosa..
(Score: 2) by Arik on Thursday March 14 2019, @12:04AM
Unless you know some way to escape them?
Yes, in a sense, mass is power. In the human sense, what I think the original entry was really going for, mass can take more forms than the physical, of course. But some sort of mass. There is always velocity, in an absolute sense, it's incredibly high and consequent to biggus boomus, either literally or figuratively. What matters in terms of destruction is mass times relative velocity. So the more mass one has the more potential one has to destroy whatever deviates from your course - or if we take gravity into the metaphor, perhaps to capture the deviant into orbit rather than to destroy it straight away.
As a deviant, I never desired power. Power is useless or worse.
What's important is strength. Strength is the ability to stand firm, to resist power.
If laughter is the best medicine, who are the best doctors?
(Score: 1) by khallow on Tuesday April 02 2019, @09:55AM
First, what is "your will"? I think a common argument against the claim that the average person has power, is not their "ability to exert", but rather that supposedly that marketing woo can rob them of agency. You know, the person who talks about how everyone is weak-willed sheep because most people don't buy into the person's particular conspiracy theory (which frankly is often manufactured to create that division).
A related issue is when someone creates latent power for their purposes (like a loophole around some bit of constitutional law) without considering that they might not stay in charge of the power forever, and then it gets used against them at a later time.
Second, is the similar matter of perception which can be altered by said woo. So many people out there believe the world is going downhill ultimately because of remarkably weak reasons, like that their tiny part of the world has mild economic problems for a couple of decades or because there's pollution somewhere in the world. If you can completely miss how well the world is doing, then your power (such as voting for people with relevant economic policies) is greatly misdirected.
FWIW, games are an interesting way to view these issues. For example, there are a few games out there that allow for the subversion of will (for example [dominionstrategy.com] or another example [fandom.com]) where an opponent can temporarily or permanent take over and use part or all of your power for their own purposes. The more powerful you make yourself, the more power is available for them to abuse (though usually there are a variety of counter strategies one can employ).
Similarly, poker is a great example of how perception affects power. The perception of having a winning hand can lead to aggressive bidding - which is fine if you do have a winning hand. But it can also be used to lull someone into losing more money. Similarly, the perception of having a losing hand can lead to early capitulation and a win for someone bluffing hard with a bad hand.