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From El Reg:
Lennart Poettering, creator of the systemd system management software for Linux, says the open-source world is "quite a sick place to be in."
He also said the Linux development community is "awful" – and he pins the blame for that on Linux supremo Linus Torvalds.
"A fish rots from the head down," Poettering said in a post to his Google+ feed on Sunday.
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Linux systemd Dev Says Open Source is 'SICK', Kernel Community 'Awful'
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Anyone can make an omelet with eggs. The trick is to make one with none.
(Score: 4, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday October 07 2014, @11:42AM
This topic was discussed at Slashdot yesterday and one comment [slashdot.org] there linked to this presentation video [youtube.com] that apparently involves Poettering.
It's an enlightening watch, to be sure!
Like the Slashdot commenter mentions, the most relevant parts start at around 12 minutes in, and then it really gets weird around 54 minutes in.
I've watched a lot of presentations, but I don't think any of them have had something like that happen!
(Score: 5, Interesting) by VLM on Tuesday October 07 2014, @12:03PM
The HN discussion was pretty good a day or so ago, apparently some guy going by name "VLM" on HN is a freakin genius, who ever would have guessed.
The ideas in systemd are really old and don't fit unix philosophy so none of the previous one zillion attempts at getting them went anywhere. Its important to note the guys who wrote upstart are not exactly getting death threats because they're not jerks who do back room political dealing and extensive product tying to shove their product down everyones unwilling throats.
The whole thing will blow up soon enough as its all an "embrace extend extinguish" op anyway. Can't install GIMP to edit photos without installing the gnome libs which require systemd as init which EEE-style replaces DHCP, syslog, NTP, god only knows what else, so when the submarine patent surfaces and the license lawsuits start flying and we begin drowning in FUD PR releases, all the fools will have no choice but to pay up. Meanwhile I'll be laughing, I'm moving everything to freebsd in my spare time. Never thought this of all things is why I'd be leaving linux and moving to BSD. And freebsd is weird, man, really weird. Its like being abducted at night from one dorm room and being tossed into one across the country, some stuff is so similar its eerie and other stuff obviously came from space aliens and its a trip discovering and categorizing which is which. But, so far, so good and I haven't hit any real snags yet. Freebsd just works. It works differently than Debian or linux in general, but it does just work in its own way. Cool.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday October 07 2014, @12:10PM
I'm moving to FreeBSD, too. I've been a Debian user since 1997, but I refuse to use an operating system that includes, or will include, malware (which is what I think systemd qualifies as, due to its many technical and non-technical problems).
It isn't as much of a transition for me because I've also used FreeBSD and OpenBSD extensively, along with many commercial UNIX variants. But the fact that people are being driven away from Debian after nearly two decades of use, if not longer in some cases, because of systemd absolutely disgusts me.
If systemd and Debian must be combined, it should be done in a fork, separate from the Debian environment so many of us have come to appreciate. A contaminant like systemd must be isolated.
(Score: 5, Insightful) by VLM on Tuesday October 07 2014, @01:11PM
"I'm moving to FreeBSD, too. I've been a Debian user since 1997"
Yes AC about the same here. I'm documenting my "adventures" in the conversion and will likely turn it into a blog post or article or wiki or free ebook when I'm done. AFAIK there isn't a Debian (or linux in general) to freebsd resource out there.
One annoyance with existing freebsd docs is they baby talk and assume you've never touched a unix-ish machine before, while glossing over the critical differences that really need to be emphasized by real world refugees. Don't gimmie three screenfulls on the concept of a CLI and then like two short lines on the almost identical to linux conceptually but completely different names for the freebsd kernel module system, and the weird (to me) way they spec modules to be loaded. How many freaking cascaded shell scripts and config files can you bsd guys have just to change a lightbulb, anyway?
Most of the fun isn't just syntax, but conceptual differences. Like instead of the one true apt-get to bind them all that does all upgrading on Debian, figuring out the whole "theres one app to upgrade the core bsd system" and pkg for some binary packages but not everything and ports to build from source, like WTF freebsd could you add more alternatives?
Speaking of alternatives, I know that system inside and out and love it on Debian so my vi is not nvi but is vim when I run vi, but conceptually what runs that on freebsd? I'll get something working eventually even if its more a work around than anything else.
I'm completely successful so far in what I've attempted although I've burned a lot of google time and still have a laundry list to complete.
Even if all the systemd stupidity blows over, I'm gaining valuable experience and perspective with another OS, just can't lose. For those reasons I should have played with freebsd a long time ago. Would strongly recommend everyone install freebsd on a spare drive / machine / partition and learn it a bit, just in general.
(Score: 2) by CoolHand on Tuesday October 07 2014, @03:16PM
I've been looking in that direction more lately also..
Have you tried Debian kFreeBSD? I'm looking into it now, and it seems a bit more mature than I'd thought. That gets rid of most of those nasty BSD packaging issues... :)
Anyone who is capable of getting themselves made President should on no account be allowed to do the job-Douglas Adams
(Score: 2) by VLM on Tuesday October 07 2014, @05:50PM
With the linuxisms in systemd and it being required as init and more and more software depending on it, I don't think that port or the hurd port have long left to live.
Based on my three or so hours of screwing around now making me a freebsd expert, you can pretty much search and replace "apt-get" with "pkg" and the rest of the command line and general behavior will be the same. With the minor exception that I keep being told that not everything is in "pkg" and sooner or later I'm going to get to experience the ports system.
(Score: 2) by hash14 on Tuesday October 07 2014, @08:48PM
Debian is already making plans to drop kFreeBSD. I was going to submit this when it came out but got lazy:
http://lwn.net/Articles/614142/ [lwn.net]
(Score: 2) by Arik on Tuesday October 07 2014, @03:35PM
Slackware and gentoo both work great with no systemd.
If laughter is the best medicine, who are the best doctors?
(Score: 2) by VLM on Tuesday October 07 2014, @04:20PM
Yeah but I don't really care about the kernel as much as I care about emacs24 and apache and vim and perl and a jvm and a decent terminal and chrome(ium)
Also your two examples "could" at least theoretically be poisoned by systemd and even worse by systemd architecture / philosophy / culture / dev style but there's too much linux-ism in it to ever poison freebsd, so I don't have to worry as much.
From about 15 yrs ago I remember the idea behind gentoo was academically fascinating but I didn't / don't feel it practical to always be compiling all the time on prod boxes. Dev box sure. Test box sure. Prod box probably shouldn't be compiling anything, ever. To each their own.
(Score: 2) by Arik on Tuesday October 07 2014, @05:05PM
You're entitled to your view but I doubt it is accurate. Gentoo allows systemd as a choice, and seems very unlikely to remove the other options, while Slack gets by just fine without systemd, or GNOME, or PAM, and has for years.
"From about 15 yrs ago I remember the idea behind gentoo was academically fascinating but I didn't / don't feel it practical to always be compiling all the time on prod boxes. Dev box sure. Test box sure. Prod box probably shouldn't be compiling anything, ever. To each their own"
There's no reason whatsoever you should be 'compiling all the time' with gentoo. You dont have to compile at all with it, in fact. If you WANT to recompile world with different options it makes it easy to do, but it's certainly not obligatory.
If laughter is the best medicine, who are the best doctors?
(Score: 1) by boltronics on Wednesday October 08 2014, @02:00AM
Question: Can you install Gentoo these days without a compiler? Ideally a compiler toolchain wouldn't even be installed on a production machine.
It's GNU/Linux dammit!
(Score: 3, Insightful) by frojack on Wednesday October 08 2014, @02:19AM
Gentoo allows systemd as a choice, and seems very unlikely to remove the other options, while Slack gets by just fine without systemd, or GNOME, or PAM, and has for years.
Ah, but going forward is what we are concerned with, not what has been happening for years.
When Systemd gets it hooks in every piece of user space software, you will have nothing to run on Gentoo or Slack without a massive patch list to remove all the dependencies on systemd.
Not many people want JUST a terminal anymore. The want a desktop environment (or three) and the resources required to keep those working without systemd just do not exist. Gnome, KDE, et al are just not going to support alternative builds when all the money is coming from red hat and ubuntu.
systemd will extinguish everything that doesn't get in line.
Its ok for you to not think his opinion is right, but for god sake look around you. Its happening before your very eyes!
No, you are mistaken. I've always had this sig.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday October 08 2014, @05:22AM
How's that? I thought this was all open source stuff. It'll only extinguish things that let themselves be extinguished, things that simply roll over and die instead of creating alternatives.
(Score: 2) by VLM on Wednesday October 08 2014, @11:42AM
"Not many people want JUST a terminal anymore. The want a desktop environment"
No, they don't, thats the craziest part of the whole story.
99.9% of the population wants a web browser and the occasional full screen video viewer or full screen game, and the admins/devs want a terminal. Almost nobody wants a "desktop environment" or the features that come with it. Enormous amounts of code, unused.
At work one of my desktops runs windows 7 with all this desktop crap piled on top of it. All it does is firefox/chromium because the corporate world has been moving to the web since the mid 90s, and outlook because for no clear reason that has webmail disabled (security paranoia, probably). None of my coworkers use desktop applications either.
It never fails to amaze me how stuff that used a desktop app and GPIB or RS232 in the 90s, or USB and a desktop app in the 00s, is all moving to a web interface over ethernet in the 10s. You can see the lure for the devs. No software installation, no desktop support, no troubleshooting, its just a web page. Works fine on my phone, tablet, or desktop, as long as their web designers don't do stupid things.
Management uses Excel as their DBMS, word processor, report generator, numerical analysis platform, and well, frankly, their desktop environment. Personally all my spreadsheets are in google docs, but they aren't very important to me. So they need like one app. There are specialists who need like "one" application. Not a whole environment. The CAD blueprint lady, I know all prints come from exactly one app. The HR people used to use powerpoint for those boring PCI/DSS and harassment training but that all moved online. Higher level mgmt does occasionally still use powerpoint but that fad kinda peaked a decade or so ago. The receptionist used to have a desktop application that talked to the PBX for advanced fast call routing, but that all went online on a web page interface. I don't really know what the accounting people use. I can't think of any employee at work who uses more than 3 applications. You don't need an "environment" for that.
The desktop environment as a metaphor is dead and was buried a long time ago but people just keep flogging the horse. Its just a grease stain on the pavement now. "But we gotta change everything because without that nothing will ever work again, I order you to pay no attention to the horse that worked perfectly well before" and then they get all pissed off when someone points out horses are dead and its all cars now.
(Score: 2) by frojack on Friday October 10 2014, @03:50AM
The point I was trying to make, and with which I accidentally stepped on your bee's nest, was that nobody running linux wants just a shell account any more.
Hence, they will all want SOME FORM of desktop environment, or graphical environment. Which means that when ALL the graphical environment projects adopt systemd, those distros like slackware who want to avoid it will have to custom build of even the simplest graphical environment, backing out all the systemd hooks for sysVinit, or what ever.
But, I, still wondering, in a discussion of systemd, how did I get sandbagged with a windows rant?
No, you are mistaken. I've always had this sig.
(Score: 2) by VLM on Friday October 10 2014, @03:22PM
"how did I get sandbagged with a windows rant"
Because this mythical "they" that everyone has an opinion on but no data actually want a program launcher, not an "environment"
Trying to hyper-tightly couple everything together is a losing system design strategy. Your USB shoudn't have anything to do with your IRC client.
(Score: 4, Insightful) by TheRaven on Tuesday October 07 2014, @05:20PM
sudo mod me up
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday October 07 2014, @09:21PM
Please do have fun with freebsd, but don't forget that the linux kernel developers are still working hard to create the best unix kernel they can make.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday October 07 2014, @09:46PM
A kernel alone does us no good, though. That's where FreeBSD shines. They do the kernel right, and they do the userspace right. Debian used to offer much of the same, but they're clearly fucking up the userland side thanks to the introduction of systemd. Unfortunately, we need both the kernel side and the userland side to be done properly. We can't just have one or the other.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday October 08 2014, @05:06AM
So then why is it that people are only bitching and whining about sytemd instead of getting together and making a better replacement? If its as bad as the extremely vocal group claims, then its in high demand and would be very welcome. The fact that nobody's working on an alternative suggests that its not really as bad as they're claiming.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday October 08 2014, @08:20AM
Not this crap again.
We had a better replacement 20 years ago. For some reason it's called sysv-init, even though it doesn't dictate sysv-style init scripts. On slackware it runs BSD-style init scripts just fine.
The problem is not the lack of an alternative, it's that more and more distros drop support for anything but systemd, due to Gnome (and probably soon KDE) dependencies.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday October 08 2014, @07:58PM
...which is exactly why they need to be forked, instead of simply bitched about.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday October 07 2014, @09:21PM
Hey, when you make that doc could you post it to Soylent/your SN journal/email me?
fox [ta] cyberfoxfirecom
I've wanted to build an apt-get -> pkg analog... Like, the FreeBSD equivalent of adding repos, purging packages, pinning packages, listing dependencies, etc... not just installation.
(Score: 2) by frojack on Wednesday October 08 2014, @01:23AM
Most of the fun isn't just syntax, but conceptual differences. Like instead of the one true apt-get to bind them all that does all upgrading on Debian, figuring out the whole "theres one app to upgrade the core bsd system" and pkg for some binary packages but not everything and ports to build from source, like WTF freebsd could you add more alternatives?
That's pretty standard on all the BSD's. Its almost impossible to avoid the three methods, and installing any BSD without going full hog on source tree is going to leave you with a pretty minimal (but secure system). Until someone finds a bug, which is rare.
Then they force you to compile the patches until the next major release, so my advice is don't even think about not installing all full source tree, and compile capable system.
Packages are somewhat easier to install, but they don't get updated very fast. BASH is not part of the normal Openbsd release, but it is often installed. And as of today, it is STILL vulnerable.
Ports? Good luck.
Stay away from ports if you can, because they are not very well checked out compared to the rest of the system.
I'm running OpenBSD (because they are security obsessed).
No, you are mistaken. I've always had this sig.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday October 07 2014, @05:12PM
Real men will move to GNU/HURD
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday October 07 2014, @08:05PM
So you should move to Debian GNU/kFreeBSD !
(Score: 2) by marcello_dl on Tuesday October 07 2014, @09:50PM
I am testing out sid without systemd. Debootstrap puts systemd in no matter what you exclude, so you remove it later. I login from the vt, start fluxbox, and have iceweasel. Gimp and mplayer need, apparently, libsystemd0. It is gonna be a long journey and I should have started from jessie and reported bugs when stuff is not compatible with sysvinit when it used to. wishlist bugs, whatever.
Else, gentoo here I come, IIRC it has a version with a static dev tree too.
(Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday October 07 2014, @10:12PM
So if I'm understanding you correctly, you're saying that it's already almost impossible to use modern Debian without it getting infected with systemd?
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday October 07 2014, @04:29PM
If only all the people who thought that would get together and work on a systemd-free fork, instead of just throwing temper tentrums...
(Score: 2) by HiThere on Wednesday October 08 2014, @03:04AM
The problem is that you'd need to fork an increasing number of packages. I'm not really sure that's going to be possible for anything much smaller than Red Hat used to be before it went public. So I think Gentoo and Slackware are probably only really temporary solutions.
My problem is that I really like ext4, and the BSDs don't currently handle it, so I'm planning to switch to Debian stable, and see if systemd blows over before I need to decide. By that time probably one of the BSDs will support large ext4 volumes, so I'll be able to do a staged transition. Or possibly systemd will be rejected by a major Linux distro. I really can't see it becoming a reasonable alternative, but maybe some other choice will appear. If all else fails, maybe I'll switch to Apple. (If my machines are going to be held hostage by software, it might as well be by elegant software.) Besides, there used to be a way to install a BSD system on top of an Apple system...I haven't looked at that in nearly a decade, but something similar may still exist.
Javascript is what you use to allow unknown third parties to run software you have no idea about on your computer.
(Score: -1, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday October 08 2014, @05:19AM
So? "Waaaah! Its too much work, its too hard!" is not a valid reason to not do something, even for children. If its really "teh edn of linux as we konw it!!1" then there'll be no shortage of people willing to work on it and wanting it as an option.
(Score: 2) by Marand on Tuesday October 07 2014, @10:57PM
Can't install GIMP to edit photos without installing the gnome libs which require systemd as init which EEE-style replaces DHCP, syslog, NTP, god only knows what else
What distribution has systemd as a gimp dependency? I've seen you mention this many times in this discussion, but others have stated that it's not the case for Slackware or Gentoo, and I'm using Debian testing (jessie) and it's not true here, either. That leaves OpenSUSE and Redhat. If you're not using either of those, or it's not an actual dependency there, then why do you keep making this incorrect assertion? Even if one of them does use it, it doesn't show that gimp has an actual dependency, just that that distro has incorrect and misleading dependencies.
I researched this for Debian not long ago when someone else made the same statement, and this is what I found:
---
The only tie I can see in Debian is that, if you follow recommended packages (apt-rdepends --follow Depends,PreDepends,Recommends gimp) you get a dependency for libsystemd-login0 by way of dbus. However, that is a recommendation, not requirement, and thus optional. It's also not systemd, it's a library for interfacing with systemd. Dbus, for example, doesn't require systemd itself, while udisks2 and policykit have direct ties to systemd and will not function without it (apt-rdepends --reverse systemd).
The curious one is udev. For a bit, Debian testing (jessie) wouldn't allow updating udev without also installing systemd because of a library it used requiring systemd. That doesn't seem to be the case currently, so it may have been a mistake. However, during that brief time, thanks to udev, nearly everything required systemd.
---
The gist of it is that, no, gimp does not require systemd. It doesn't even require any of the libsystemd* bits. One of its recommended packages recommends one of those libs, but that still isn't systemd itself, and doesn't run systemd on your system or try to install it.
I'm not a fan of systemd either, but using gimp as your strawman isn't helping anything. If it gets repeated back to someone pro-systemd, they're just going to shoot down that point and then use it as a reason to disregard anything else you said, regardless of merit. That's not helping those of us that don't like systemd.
Please pick a better example. Complain about policykit, upower, or the fact that udev has been folded into systemd. Anything is better than trotting out the gimp example that you keep using.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday October 07 2014, @01:20PM
Poor Wolfgang. Lennart and the rest are such "dbus dbags."
(Score: 2) by kaszz on Tuesday October 07 2014, @02:05PM
Is dbus also in the Poettering coding philosophy?
(Score: 3, Insightful) by VLM on Tuesday October 07 2014, @04:35PM
I would say no, dbus is not have the legendary Pottering-Foo philosophy because:
1) Its a message passing library. It doesn't try to EEE into being a audio processing shim or a DHCP client or BGP routing speaker. Its a message passing library.
2) Its not exclusive. You can have and use a system that has dbus, sysv IPC, DCOP, and maybe ancient fat old CORBA and it'll "just work" all in parallel without having to uninstall the others. Installing dbus doesn't come with a kernel driver hook that catches IPC and does a kernel panic saying its politically incorrect to use anything but dbus. Shoudn't say it too loud or some jerk will probably put it in.
3) The architecture of dbus is not stupid AFAIK. It has legendarily been used in poorly architected systems doing "stupid dbus tricks" but in itself AFAIK its not badly designed. I heard about some audio thing in a car for android embedded in cars that did something mind boggling like embed CAN bus packets inside dbus messages, like I can smell the smoking crack from here, but thats not dbus's fault and may not even be true or the alternatives might have even been worse... yeah well, maybe.
It does have a faint odor of the philosophy because you get things like plain ole GUI text editors that speak dbus for rather dubious reasons. Like WTF dbus, you're drunk go home, after closing time you don't belong here. But dbus itself is not necessarily evil.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday October 08 2014, @08:23AM
It still doesn't shut down when it's not needed, which is reason enough for me to chmod a-x /usr/bin/dbus*
(Score: 2) by q.kontinuum on Tuesday October 07 2014, @04:19PM
Lennart doesn't appear to be actually stupid, but he is unwilling to understand or to accept the main point Wolfgang makes: Interfaces need to be documented and standardized in order to be able to exchange components. And at the end of the video he made a complete ass of himself by stating "It's free" apparently in the sense of "free of charge" rather than freedom.
Please mod parent up, the video-link is great!
Registered IRC nick on chat.soylentnews.org: qkontinuum
(Score: 2) by frojack on Wednesday October 08 2014, @03:25AM
Oh, and did you miss all the "won't somebody please think of the blind people" appeals he made?
The guy is a total ass. I'm surprised someone hasn't handed him the pieces of the his own jaw.
No, you are mistaken. I've always had this sig.
(Score: 2) by q.kontinuum on Wednesday October 08 2014, @04:14AM
No, but while the way he communicated was total shit, he made some relevant points there (e.g. why it might make sense to include all the accessibility stuff for login; I think Wolfgang showed later that this doesn't work still because of wrongly set privileges, but that does not invalidate the point.) This behaviour provides reasons not to want to work with him (which I probably won't anyway, and lets face it: Linus also provides a couple of reasons not to want to work with him), while the point he made at the end of the presentation provided reasons not to want to get tied up with his projects.
Is there any credible free distribution without systemd left worth using? I currently use Fedora, and for most parts like it for providing up-to-date packages for most development tools etc. However, I have to concede the points Wolfgang Draxinger made, that the system gets more complicated to understand. There are more things you just have to magically know somehow instead of seeing it from debug output or in plain text config files. My impression is that systemd implements lots of great features, but it is either out of malice (gaining control) or out of time-constraints hacked together without clear interfaces and without separating the components.
Registered IRC nick on chat.soylentnews.org: qkontinuum
(Score: 1) by http on Tuesday October 07 2014, @07:53PM
One of the more horrifying things about that presentation is that (in 2010) he pointed out that vital parts of consolekit's purported documentation were in a "To be written" stage . I just checked today, and some of them are, in fact, still "To be written".
"But consolekit is deprecated!" I hear some wag in the back shouting. If it is, then Poettering really needs to update stuff, because pulseaudio is documented as explicitly depending on consolekit (http://www.freedesktop.org/wiki/Software/PulseAudio/Documentation/User/Startup/) and pulseaudio is definitely not deprecated.
Poettering certainly makes an impression. Having the "think of the blind people!" card up his sleeve during that talk must have felt as reassuring as "terrorists! stop thinking!" feels to the US Government. It's a dishonest decoy, separate from the issues his software causes.
I browse at -1 when I have mod points. It's unsettling.
(Score: 3, Interesting) by Marand on Tuesday October 07 2014, @11:39PM
This topic was discussed at Slashdot yesterday and one comment there linked to this presentation video that apparently involves Poettering.
It's an enlightening watch, to be sure!
Like the Slashdot commenter mentions, the most relevant parts start at around 12 minutes in, and then it really gets weird around 54 minutes in.
I'd say the best parts in that video are around 23:00 [youtube.com], when Lennart accuses the presenter of "hating handicapped people" as a way to shut down criticism of gdm, and from 50:48 [youtube.com] to the end of the video. The last five minutes consists of Lennart basically going "it's free stfu" and "if you don't like what I'm doing you're obsolete" to everything the presenter says while becoming increasingly hostile over it. Then he gets on the stage and continues to argue!
This is exactly the kind of shit that people complain about in regard to open source software. He's as guilty as anybody else, probably moreso, for claims of toxicity in open source with his attitude and how he interacts with others.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday October 08 2014, @12:35AM
I think that very few open source participants act in that manner. I've been to hundreds of presentations and conferences in person, and watched thousands of videos, and I've only ever seen a small number of people act that way:
1. Rubyists
2. "Social Justice Warriors"
3. Poettering
The rest of the people in the open source community are generally good, decent people. At least the others who are borderline cases manage to just keep their outbursts confined to mailing lists. In real life, they don't act out like Poettering did.
(Score: 2) by Marand on Wednesday October 08 2014, @12:40AM
I wasn't implying that a majority act this way. Rather, I was implying that the person complaining about poor behaviour is one of the ones that help perpetuate the hostile open-source member stereotype.