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I read a couple of good books recently, and wanted to share them and do some writing to collect my thoughts on a subject that is currently of news-worthy relevance and of particular interest to "Soylentils". Enjoy, and I look forward to the discussion!
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Book(s) Review: "Technopoly" and "You Are Not a Gadget"
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While most peoples' opinions change, the conviction of their
correctness never does.
(Score: 1) by khallow on Monday May 08 2017, @02:23PM (2 children)
Implying there are two only two systems and and only one way to run either of them?
Indeed. The real problem here is that capitalism really is the only game in town at the national level, if you want a prosperous nation. There's not much point to noting that capitalism isn't perfect, when you don't have a better idea in mind.
In particular, when one is complaining about the problem of people being treated as machines, it's worth noting that's no different than any other era where people worked for a living as opposed to the usual hunter/gatherer thing. Capitalists didn't create this outlook. Instead, it's been around since the dawn of agriculture. In particular, that indicates to me that when rival approaches are developed, they'll have similar outlook problems with this.
This is just a routine conflict of interest that happens when someone else values a person's labor. Everyone will have that, unless the society somehow succeeds in making human labor valueless.
Finally, what exactly is supposed to be so bad about private ownership and trading of capital, currency and banking, or the other features of modern capitalist societies? A lot of the complaints seem to want to do away with the best parts of capitalism rather than the worst.
(Score: 2) by pnkwarhall on Monday May 08 2017, @03:34PM (1 child)
when one is complaining about the problem of people being treated as machines, it's worth noting that's no different than any other era where people worked for a living
Capitalists didn't create this outlook. Instead, it's been around since the dawn of agriculture.
One of Postman's main examples of technological impact on the viewing of workers as "just another machine" (vs as something special that couldn't be replaced by a machine) was the widespread adoption of Taylorism [wikipedia.org]. I would argue that the perspective of "workers as machines" was not feasible in many types of production (i.e. products made by craftsmen) prior to the industrial revolution--the individual level of skill and experience used to make a finished product are readily visible in many crafts. In fact, I want to go as far as saying "most types of production", because I imagine that, prior to the present era where the majority of product categories are commodities due to lack of major differences in quality, the skill of the craftsman made a huge difference in the sales value of an item.
I would agree that the outlook has "been around since the dawn of agriculture"--after all, agriculture has many low-skill tasks that can be done by easily-replaceable workers. But Postman's argument is that this perspective has become pervasive and societally-dominant due to common methods of production and business organization, and negatively affected peoples' own view of themselves and their self-worth based on their contribution to society.
I think your reply to AC's criticism of capitalism contains his whole idea: "unless society somehow succeeds in making human labor valueless", with the substitution of "Capitalists" for "society". That, more or less, is the implicit goal of many capitalist enterprises--labor is a cost, and should thus be minimized. But are the human elements of a productive system a cost or an investment?
Lift Yr Skinny Fists Like Antennas to Heaven
(Score: 1) by khallow on Monday May 08 2017, @11:34PM
I would argue that the perspective of "workers as machines" was not feasible in many types of production (i.e. products made by craftsmen) prior to the industrial revolution--the individual level of skill and experience used to make a finished product are readily visible in many crafts. In fact, I want to go as far as saying "most types of production", because I imagine that, prior to the present era where the majority of product categories are commodities due to lack of major differences in quality, the skill of the craftsman made a huge difference in the sales value of an item.
Agriculture was pretty widespread prior to the industrial revolution. I'd say that by itself, it would be most people for all but the most highly urbanized societies. Second, there are several other sectors in the same situation: warfare and low skilled labor. So no, I think it was widely prevalent contrary to the basic assumption.
I would agree that the outlook has "been around since the dawn of agriculture"--after all, agriculture has many low-skill tasks that can be done by easily-replaceable workers. But Postman's argument is that this perspective has become pervasive and societally-dominant due to common methods of production and business organization, and negatively affected peoples' own view of themselves and their self-worth based on their contribution to society.
Compared to when? There were a lot of societies who had slaves or indentured servants/peasants. Instead, today is far more respectful of workers than the past was.
I think your reply to AC's criticism of capitalism contains his whole idea: "unless society somehow succeeds in making human labor valueless", with the substitution of "Capitalists" for "society". That, more or less, is the implicit goal of many capitalist enterprises--labor is a cost, and should thus be minimized. But are the human elements of a productive system a cost or an investment?
No, reducing cost is not the goal. Increasing profit would be a typical goal, but you can't get there by merely cutting costs. You have to have revenue generation as well.